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Unofficial Glossary

Discussion in 'BW OU' started by Melee Mewtwo, Feb 28, 2013.

  1. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo lol, nice
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    There are many terms created by Smogon to describe various team types, Pokemon roles and relationships. Terms like "check" and "counter" can be hotly debated when the principle disagreement is nothing more than a different understanding of the definitions. These officially undefined terms can lead to confusion when it comes to projects trying to research particular team types or Pokemon. The purpose of this thread is to have the community come together to decide on an official definition of these terms.

    I'm going to put my own understanding as a place-holder (some probably won't be accurate) and will edit the post as others contribute. If there are any terms I am missing please let me know.

    This builds off of this dictionary.

    Counter (open)

    A Pokemon that can switch into any move and force the out the opposing Pokemon by threatening to KO it. (Either by extended stalling or outright attacking) There are various degrees described as shaky to hard depending on the number of times the Pokemon can do so and its reliability.


    Check (open)

    A Pokemon that can not switch into every move, if any, but can force out the opposing Pokemon by threatening to KO it. There are various degrees described as shaky to hard depending on the number of moves it can switch in on and the ease with which it may do so. (May also factor in amount of support needed to secure a KO)


    Scarfwynaut's post is a good reference as it was used by Antar for forming his current check/counter statistics. (The thread itself is generally useful)

    Full Stall (open)

    The purest form of Stall. This teamtype focuses almost entirely on passive damage in order to remove threats. It has the easiest team switching between its members thanks to their large bulk and/or key resistances. It relies heavily on utilities like phazing, hazards and status to make up for its very low direct damage output.


    Semi-Stall (open)

    Semi-Stall is similar to Full Stall in that it features a defensive core and intends to rack up passive damage. However, it has a key difference in that it features a setup sweeper that is used late game when the passive damage has weakened/removed all of its checks or counters. There is a fine line between this and balance where the key difference is that balance has a more general offensive presence.


    Quick Stall (open)

    A playstyle only found in Ubers where traditionally offense Pokemon (like Mewtwo) are given defensive sets that abuse their high speed and reasonable bulk with key support moves. Unlike Stall, it lacks the ease of direct switching due to otherwise unremarkable natural and/or resistances. Unlike Offense, the reliance on passive damage leaves quick stallers unable to weaken/remove mutual checks/counters nor maintain an offensive momentum. However, it makes up for this by functioning as a group of "superstar stallers" that are difficult to force out.


    Bojangles's and Fireburn's featured RMT gives a more indepth and accurate explanation of Quick Stall. (Which I probably butchered trying to sum it up)

    Hyper Offense (open)

    Hyper Offense takes a very puritan approach to Offense with very refined offensive Synergy and, often times, a very poor defensive backbone as their goal is to constantly maintain momentum throughout the game, relying almost entirely on Double Switches. They are focused around a group of setup sweepers that can successfully threaten a clean sweep one after the other.


    Standard Offense (open)

    This teamtype is similar to Hyper Offense in general play and build yet feature a key difference in that the main attackers focus more on instant damage rather than setup sweeps. This allows them to punish switches instantly instead of repeatedly attempting to win the game with a single free turn.


    Bulky Offense (open)

    Bulky Offense trades Offense's typically lightning speed for bulky, powerful attackers that form a strong offensive and defensive Core in order to directly switch into major threats more easily while harshly punishing opposing switches.


    This link gives some more flushed out definitions of the substyles of Offense.

    Balance (open)

    Balance is a mix of the two playstyles, Offense and Stall, in order to have a mixture of their advantages and disadvantages. There may be slight leanings in a offensive or defensive nature and may thus be called Offensive Balance or Defensive Balance respectively.


    Baton Pass Teams (open)

    Baton Pass is an unusual strategy that is generally considered to be gimmicky. These teams are based on the move, Baton Pass, in order to pass important boosts to an offensive team member. They rely on multiple members with Baton Pass to shuffle around its members in order to, ideally, max out each stat and pass to an offensive member or dedicated recipient.


    I'm considering Smash/Quiver Pass as just another form of support. (and won't mention it here unless you guys say otherwise)

    Gravity Teams (open)

    A team style that is, in the community, under the same boat as baton pass teams. These teams are centered around the move gravity and use it's effects and tend to run similar to standard offense or full stall based on the effects it wants to use.

    There are two types of gravity teams, however this just dictates which effect of gravity has a bigger focus. Offensive gravity teams use gravity's enhanced accuracy and removal of ground immunities to hit opponents with more power and better coverage from ground moves to succeed. Defensive gravity teams use the now unavoidable spikes and toxic spikes to rack up more residual damage than that of normal full stall teams but still plays out the same.

    Thanks, Ninetale3


    DragMag (open)

    These teams use the multiple dragons in combination with a Pokemon that can trap and remove Steel types (Magnezone is iconic for this but others like Shadow Tag Gothitelle could qualify a team as DragMag) so that they can freely spam powerful neutral attacks such as Outrage or Draco Meteor.

    [​IMG]

    Thanks, Soulfly


    Synergy (open)

    Synergy is the term used to describe the way in which two or more Pokemon work together. There is offensive Synergy and defensive Synergy. Offensive synergy is the way in which the Pokemon work together in order to maintain a strong offensive presence while defensive Synergy describes multiple Pokemon walling individual portions of the meta-game, walling the majority when put together.


    Anti-Lead (open)

    A Pokemon used in the lead position that has a favorable match-up against common leads with the intent of preventing them from providing their support for the team.


    Weather War (open)

    Weather War is used to describe the battle between two players using different weather based teams who aim to maintain their permanent weather and eliminate the opposing weather inducer.


    Core (open)

    A Core consists of two or three Pokemon with powerful defensive and/or offensive Synergy that a team is centered around and used as a foundation.


    Glue (open)

    Glue is a term used to describe a Pokemon, usually added late in team building, that provides key general utilities to hold a team together and patch up important holes.


    Clean Up (open)

    Clean Up desicribes the situation where a attacker outspeeds and KOs the remaining weakened Pokemon of an opposing team.


    Scouting (open)

    Scouting describes the use of moves such as U-Turn, Volt-Switch, or Baton Pass to see the decision of your opponent's decision to either attack or retreat before switching to one of your own members to maintain or take (be Pivoting) momentum. Scouting may also be done through the use of Protect/Detect or a faster Substitute which allows you to see the move of your opponent without risking a direct attack. Even simply switching out your Pokemon in order to glean any information on the Pokemon's set is considered scouting.


    Dry Passing (open)

    Dry Passing is the use of Baton Pass solely for the use of scouting your opponent's move and not to pass boosts or Substitutes.


    Double Switching (open)

    Double Switching is a prediction based move where you anticipate the retreat of the opposing Pokemon and retreat yourself to bring out a member with a favorable match-up to the expected switch-in. This may be used to maintain momentum or to provide a free opportunity to use key support moves. Risk-Reward may still apply in that, in the case of a misprediction, having the Pokemon in the active position is still an advantage.


    4 Moveslot Syndrome (open)

    This term is used to describe Pokemon that suffer from the limitation to only four moves. This means that in order for the Pokemon to fully fulfill its intended purpose it would need to be able to use more than four moves and thus must make a difficult choice between which great flaw that lack of a certain move brings.
  2. Stathakis

    Stathakis I hax people in real life
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    I'm not sure how much of this is necessary beyond check and counter, as those are the terms we use when discussing suspects and benefit from explicit definitions.

    stuff like pivot, core, glue, wall breaking, stall breaking, etc. probably don't need to be explicitly defined, as that doesn't really aid discussion much. everyone has a pretty general idea of what they mean, but if we start assigning explicit definitions especially for flexible things there can be confusion. example: to you (according to this post anyway), scouting is the use of volt switch, u-turn, or baton pass to see your opponent's action and then "pivot" away. to me, scouting also includes using protect against possible choiced mons, using substitute in the face of walls to see what they do, hell it even could mean spamming draco meteor to see what your opponent decides to bring in. it's hard to agree on one exact meaning, and even when you do, you don't really gain much from it. is there really a reason to differentiate between sweeping and cleaning?
  3. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo lol, nice
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    Like I said these are just place holder and probably many are flawed.

    This just doesn't apply to Suspect Testing, the Defense of the Titans project, for example, had a difficulty in setting the rules for those wishing to research the viability of full stall on the ladder as there was disagreement and uncertainty on what separated full stall from semi-stall. Officially defining these terms help those unfamiliar with the concept understand and capable to contribute. (Maybe someday we will research potential pivots to top threats or something)
  4. Nysyr

    Nysyr

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    It does matter in the context of users of the site looking up sets for teambuilding and seeing these terms and possibly not knowing what they mean, in turn making uninformed decisions.

    Also I really hate people calling checks counters.
  5. Bryce

    Bryce Lun

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    This is what I disagree with.HO needs to be able to set up as much as possible to execute their strategy. Poor defensive synergy will get you nowhere.In a successful HO team,you'll see the sweepers have very nice defensive synergy with each other, allowing them to constantly set up,e.g. Dragonite+Lucario+Scizor.Dragonite and Lucario resist a lot of each others weaknesses which enables them to set up on each other's revenge killers.Sometimes Lucario can't take very strong resisted type attacks due to being very frail.Scizor can offer a solution to that through not only typing but also bulk.So you see,HO sweepers utilize defensive synergy and bulk too, just in a different way,but they can't switch constantly due to lack defensive stats and investments.HO teams sometimes use defensive utility pokemons such as Rotom-W,Celebi to protect them from getting swept by things likes of SD Scizor,ScarfKeldeo,Venusaur etc.

    So the correct line should be imo,"they have decent defensive synergy to allow their sweepers to create set up opportunities or to check a alarmingly dangerous threat,but cannot be dry switch constantly due to lack of investment"
  6. Stathakis

    Stathakis I hax people in real life
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    let me clarify. an informal glossary could be helpful to newer players, but you should emphasize that all the definitions are subject to interpretation. the purpose of adding terminology to a discussion is to facilitate it, and branding definitions as "official" does anything but. if you make this distinction and cut out some of the superfluous terms (see: stall breaking and wall breaking, sweeping and cleaning), and keep it from being overly specific or convoluted, then it could be a good project.

    projects such as defense of the titans can officially define their relevant terminology in the OP of their threads, where that terminology is applicable and an official definition helps to clarify. I really don't like the idea of having blanket definitions though.
  7. Huntofthelion

    Huntofthelion Live for the nights you can't remember
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    I agree with this post 100%. A lot of players that come through b101 or are new to posting get very caught up in definitions of things and have a hard time getting past the idea that definitions aren't super important and change from person to person. As long it's specified that these aren't the official definitions (because official definitions don't exist) I think this could be a good project.
  8. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo lol, nice
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    Actually, the Defense of the Titans Project spent a good portion of a thread (a popularity poll asking if it should be continued where the stiff rules were brought into question) trying to figure out how it would officially define the Full Stall teams it wanted to limit participants to. It ended up deciding to add a rule where participants could share their team and have Alexwolf decide if it met the requirements. This is a pretty subjective way to handle the situation and having a clear line separating Full Stall and Semi-Stall would have helped. (since after the rule was added, many newer players kept on asking if their team was Stally enough or not)

    Here's the thread for reference: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3475404&page=2

    Now, I'm not going to try to limit each playstyle to a specific formula or something but I think a clear definition to help put the box around the idea would be useful in general. I don't see how having a clear, accurate definition of popular terms would be a problem for newer players as it would just be a tool to help them understand vague concepts. (Plus it'll put many a silly check vs counter debate to rest)

    Anyways, I can change it to unofficial glossary or something if that's what you guys want. I'm not trying to write the rules myself, just trying to get them written.

    Edit: I'm editing the small changes you guys are suggesting but if you ever want to completely redefine it feel free to do so. Again, these are all just placeholder and probably flawed. (Plus they don't really go into much depth so they may not clear things up much)
  9. jpw234

    jpw234

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    I'd like to see Pursuit get mentioned in the Trapping section. You currently only have abilities/moves which make it so that the opponent can't switch, but more often when people talk about "trapping" they're referring to the ability of CBTar or Scizor to kill switching pokemon with Pursuit.
  10. Lord of Bays

    Lord of Bays

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    How exactly are you going about this? Are you looking for input? How long are you looking to make these individual sections?
  11. yee

    yee
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    Be sure to acknowledge this somehow because it's one of our "introductory" articles from the front page. There is a fair amount of overlap so you'll probably save a lot of effort.

    I haven't looked over much, but under double switching make sure to note that quite often the reason a double switch is so appealing is because in addition to the reward of the advantage vs the predicted switch, the risk of bringing your pokemon in worst case scenario (a wrong prediction) isn't bad to start with.
  12. Onicon

    Onicon

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    Do you think that this thread should include less common and more special term like Hazing or PHazing? Hazing is more or less dead, the last time we have seen this was on a ADV Weezing, but Phazing occures from time to time. Those terms we usually mention in one go with trapping, so it does not look like it is too much out of place.

    Also, we probably all agree on Booming being nerfed to the point of undesirability and needs no explaination. Does it?
  13. gengarsnemisis

    gengarsnemisis

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    Is this really neccesary? In the end I think alot of these terms come down to peoples personal opinion.
  14. Tobes

    Tobes Woo-hoo, woo-hoo, woo-hoo-hoo!
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    Dry Switching isn't really a term and should be removed.

    However, Dry Passing is. It's the use of Baton Pass in a fashion similar to U-turn or Volt Switch, aimed at maintaining an advantageous match-up rather than passing boosts. It's more common in ADV.
  15. lousy918

    lousy918

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    why isn't tank and wall there
    many people confuse the two i.e. tentacruel
    also there's a grammar error under 'double switching': it says 'this is may...'
  16. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo lol, nice
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    I'm putting my understanding of these terms, right or wrong, as just a general place holder and then you guys can point out minor flaws or completely re-write the definition if it was that bad. As far as length is concerned, I want these to be however long they need to be to clearly and accurately explain the term. (I was kinda worried I was rushing and making some of these too short but now that I see the other dictionary I feel better :P)

    I erased all of the overlap except for Offense and Stall. The article explains the general concept of the playstyles but doesn't talk about any of the subdivisions except for HO. (so I'll probably just remove the general concept and focus more on the missing subdivisions) I noticed the article doesn't have anti-lead so I'll be adding that. Some look kind of outdated. For example, trapping only mentions Pursuit trapping. I took down the trapping section, anyways, but if I don't know if there are some that I should be updating.

    That's exactly the reason why I want to do this. There are quite a few instances where these different personal opinions leads to an unresolved disagreement. For example, I've seen quite a few different understandings about what defines a "check" or "counter" that leads to arguments where neither party is wrong or right as they only disagree on a undefined definition.


    @rest: I made (or in the process of doing) the minor changes you guys brought up. If a term wasn't added it was because it was already in the onsite article.

    Edit: Changed title by general agreement
  17. SlimMan

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    I definitely like this, as I feel like it'll help some newer players understand what's going on around them on irc and the forums. Because let's be honest, how many new players are actually gonna go to the articles page, find the dictionary, and look through it?

    I haven't finished reading all of your definitions yet Melee, but I agree with most of them so far. The only real thing that bothers me here is Stathakis' concern: The title "Official Definitions" really makes this seem like it's Smogon-approved, THESE are the definitions everyone will use from now on. I support changing the word "Official" in the title.
  18. Soul Fly

    Soul Fly IMMA TEACH YOU WHAT SPLASHIN' MEANS
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    Nice Job. I really like the idea of a glossary like this. A standard is good than having to argue meanings every time we are in a discussion.

    (I'm digging scald btw, lol +1 to you)

    My only complaint here is that you define counter with an offensive mindset.


    we must remember that there are many offensive/defensive/support/annoy roles pokemon may play. It must not focus solely on survivng a switch in and forcing the mon out.

    Some pokemon like suicide leads and spikers don't care if you K.O them the next turn as long as they get their stuff done. This is especially true against HO teams.


    For example Ferrothorn plays a support/annoy role? how do we counter it?
    Rocky Helmet Xatu.
    It will outright stop it dead in it's tracks and threaten it out with a heat wave. There is just simply nothing ferrothorn can do in such a situation.

    So I propose you amend that definition to something much simpler and fundamental.

    My take:

  19. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo lol, nice
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    I was going to copy-paste your definition but since it could also apply to checks I just stuck a "may also apply to preventing support pokemon from fulfilling their role" in both. However, I'm interested in hearing what you guys think concerning check/countering support mons. For example, would Heatran be a check or counter to Ferrothorn in your opinion? It can switch into all of its attacks (lol bulldoze) and roast it with a fire STAB but that doesn't stop it from laying Spikes. Then you also have to consider whether or not Starmie could be considered a check/counter since it can spin those Spikes even though it can't come in on Ferro. Xatu is a clear cut counter but where are we going to draw the line?
  20. Lucario_Guy

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    Here are my thoughts on supporters:

    Counter: Capable of switching in on the supporter with relative impunity and outright preventing the supporter from achieving/maintaining its primary goal (i.e., Magic Bounce Xatu > Spikes Ferrothorn, or DrizzleToed > DroughtTales). May or may not threaten to KO, but limits the supporter's options to such a degree that they've no choice but to switch.

    Check: Capable of switching in on the supporter with relative impunity, but incapable of outright preventing the supporter from achieving/maintaining its primary goal (i.e., Heatran > Spikes Ferrothorn, or Heatran > DroughtTales). Must threaten to KO.

    In the Xatu > Ferro scenario, Ferro's attempt to lay Spikes (its primary goal) is made moot as Xatu switches in and deflects them. In the Heatran > Ferro scenario, Heatran isn't able to stop Ferro from achieving its goal, but does scare it out after the fact.

    When DrizzleToed switches in, DroughtTales' primary goal (setting up Sun) is immediately shattered and replaced with Rain. Heatran, on the other hand, only tanks Ninetales' attacks and threatens a KO; Sun stays up, and Ninetales' goal is still achieved.

    If a Pokémon can neither outright prevent the supporter's goal from being achieved nor withstand the supporter's attacks and threaten to KO back, it's neither a check nor a counter. Starmie, for instance, can only clean up the field after the fact, and cannot outright combat Ferrothorn's Spikes whilst maintaining momentum; at the very least, Ferrothorn checks Starmie by the definition I've proposed. It can take Starmie's hits all day, and can easily KO it with Power Whip, but Ferro doesn't outright prevent Starmie from Spinning and clearing the field. Sure, Iron Barbs are a deterrent, and Ferro can lay Spikes again immediately afterwards, but Ghost-types are the only ones capable of truly preventing a Rapid Spin and thus countering a Rapid Spin Supporter.
  21. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo lol, nice
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    So then outside of Xatu, Ferrothorn has no counters? By the definition this would be true but then that would mean that just about nobody uses any actual counters to the #2 most used Pokemon in the OU metagame. I'm not saying it's wrong, just that it sounds weird as not even Terrakion is as difficult to counter. I think the problem is that supporting threats are very different from offensive threats. A team lacking a counter or at least sufficient checks to an offensive threat, like Terrakion, runs a heavy risk of outright losing the game whereas a team with just one single check to Ferrothorn (let's say Heatran) doesn't necessarily risk losing the game to every Ferrothorn. Things like Terrakion pose a direct threat and must be directly checked/countered whereas things like Ferrothorn pose mostly an indirect threat. Perhaps being able to handle the support indirectly is enough to consider it checked/countered? A team with Starmie isn't going to have a hard time dealing with Spikes neither will one packing multiple members with Levitate, flying typing, and/or Magic Guard.
  22. Ninetale3

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    I am wondering if there can be a definition for gravity teams?

    Here is my definition.

    Gravity teams: A team style that is, in the community, under the same boat as baton pass teams. These teams are centered around the move gravity and use it's effects and tend to run similar to standard offense or full stall based on the effects it wants to use.

    There are two types of gravity teams, however this just dictates which effect of gravity has a bigger focus. Offensive gravity teams use gravity's enhanced accuracy and removal of ground immunities to hit opponents with more power and better coverage from ground moves to succeed. Defensive gravity teams use the now unavoidable spikes and toxic spikes to rack up more residual damage than that of normal full stall teams but still plays out the same.
  23. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo lol, nice
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    I'd consider Gravity to just be another form of support like Smash Pass, Hazards, Screens, etc. Full Baton Pass Teams are particular in that their method of winning and team build isn't even remotely similar to any of the other, more standard, playstyles. I don't think Gravity support really deserves a separation especially since it is considered even more gimmicky than TR.
  24. Lord of Bays

    Lord of Bays

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    Full Gravity teams are technically a thing and while it's non-existent (I don't think I've ever seen one besides the one I ran in early BW1) I feel like if you're going to include full Baton Pass teams Gravity and Trick Room deserve definitions. We have a Gravity article on-site and building teams around Trick Room and Gravity drastically changes what you use in them. I can write up some rough definitions for both (though Ninetale3 got Gravity pretty well already) later tonight.
  25. Melee Mewtwo

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    Oh okay, I'll add Ninetale3's definition to the list then. I'm still curious to hear more input concerning the difference between a check and a counter for support Pokemon. Should we focus only on the direct threat they may have (their offensive/defensive capabilities) or on the indirect threat they may pose (the ability to lay hazards or set up Screens for example) or a mix of the two?

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