Unresolved Convention Issues

Discussion in 'Past Generation Contributions' started by Rising_Dusk, Jul 1, 2010.

  1. Rising_Dusk

    Rising_Dusk
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    Hi C&C. There are a few unresolved issues with conventions in C&C that need to be resolved immediately. As a member of the GP, I've had to deal with these issues a lot, and without an established convention, not all GP members may agree on the way a certain thing can be. The two issues I have right now are as follows:
    The use of hyphens in set functionality
    Is it wall-breaker or wallbreaker? Spinblocker or spin-blocker? We have a direct conflict in our conventions, as here it tells us to not use the hyphen, yet many grammar checkers for both the Smog and C&C enforce the hyphen. We need to come to a conclusion on this and enforce it everywhere.

    I personally suggest that we do not have the hyphen. Terms such as wallbreaker, stallbreaker, and spinblocker are coined terms, similar to how we've coined the Speed tie. Because these are coined, it is entirely permissible to have them without the hyphen, and I think that will help because in common conversation, almost everyone ditches the hyphen. Our convention should be consistent with what people actually use.
    Capitalization when referencing attack names
    This is another issue that has recently arisen in my time with GP. When we use the term Spinblocker, we are directly referencing the attack "Rapid Spin." Therefore, the 'S' in Spinblocker should be capitalized. However, many proofreaders are going back and forth as to whether it should be capitalized or not. There is a similar issue for when people refer to a Substitute created by the move Substitute. The actual Substitute created by the move should also be capitalized as it directly references the move itself. Another common example of this is when we use the verb Pass to refer to Baton Passing a boost to another Pokemon.

    • Example: "Scizor can Pass the Swords Dance boost on to another Pokemon."
    I think directly referencing a move like this should be capitalized for clarity. I could use the word pass in many different contexts to do different things, but when I say that Scizor can Pass the boost, that clearly indicates we are referring to Baton Pass. That clarity is important, so it should be convention to always capitalize the word when directly referring to a move.

    __________________________________________________

    Anyway, I made this topic so it could be open to discussion. These convention issues need to be resolved sooner rather than later, and I welcome everyone's input.

    Cheers.
  2. Fuzznip

    Fuzznip Hoo-hoo-hoo-hoo!
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    I agree that this is extremely important for proofreaders and writers, and it irritates me how everyone is using different spellings for a term. This needs to be dealt with, so hopefully we will come to a conclusion at the death of this thread.

    Whenever I write my analyses, I always use the hyphens in terms such as "wall-breaker" and "Spin-blocker". To me, I think there is a relation between the words that make up the compound word, so a hyphen should be used. For instance, "wall-breaker" suggests a Pokemon that breaks walls. Another, "Spin-blocker" suggests a Pokemon that blocks Rapid Spin.

    We should be capitalizing attack names when we reference them. As you stated, they offer clarity, which is very important for our readers to understand the text they are reading. So I agree with these:

    • Forretress can Spin away entry hazards.
    • Scizor can Pass Swords Dance.
    Or you know what, you can just forget about saying those and spell out the whole word.

    I'd also like to bring up two other concerns. Two terms that are often spelled differently are revenge-killer and revenge-kill. Is it supposed to be revenge killer and revenge kill instead? I'm assuming it's revenge killer/revenge kill, as that's what is stated in the Pokemon Dictionary.

    My second concern is when we refer to specific Pokemon sets, such as MixMence, CursePert, CroCune, and MixApe. I always spell them out like that, but I've seen people spell them without capitalizing the Pokemon's name. For example, people use Crocune and Curselax instead of CroCune and CurseLax, respectively. I personally want the reference to specific Pokemon sets have the Pokemon's name capitalized.

    I honestly don't care what we actually go with. As long as most, if not all, of us agree, I'm happy with that. Don't let this thread die with no conclusion whatever happens!
  3. Dubulous

    Dubulous raidical
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    I agree entirely with Rising_Dusk. My vote is for no hyphen and for yes for capitalization in reference to attack names.

    There should definitely not be a space, however. There either needs to be a hyphen there or nothing at all. In the case of revenge-killer, I believe there should be a hyphen (obviously).

    I would also like to take this opportunity to propose that we enforce a restriction of the word "you." I believe that "you" should only be used in reference to the battler: you aren't setting up Stealth Rock, Infernape is. Using "you" breaks up the consistency of an analysis by switching ambiguously between the battler and the Pokemon.

    There has been debate about this on IRC several times with nothing really coming out of it, so I'm going to throw it onto your list of things to discuss, if that's OK Rising_Dusk.
  4. Ray Jay

    Ray Jay "The sky's the limit, okey-dokey!"
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    I agree with Dusk. (and well dubulous)
    No hyphen and capitalization is my vote.

    Fuzznip, i believe it should be Crocune rather than CroCune. Why? You don't refer to the Pokemon as SuiCune, or SalaMence, so it doesn't make too much sense.

    dubulous, I agree with your statement, however I have seen times where using "you" just seems to flow better. Could just be me though.

    Thanks and it is late so really, don't quote me on this stuff...
  5. Seven Deadly Sins

    Seven Deadly Sins ~hallelujah~
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    I'd like to say:

    1: No hyphen.

    2: Capitalization ONLY when the full attack is spelled out. For example:

    "Forretress can Rapid Spin away entry hazards."

    versus

    "Forretress can spin away entry hazards."

    or

    "Scizor can Baton Pass the boost from Swords Dance..."

    versus

    "Scizor can pass the boost from Swords Dance..."
  6. Fizz

    Fizz

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    "Cune" is an abbreviation of Suicune, and because Suicune is a proper noun and is thus capitalized, it seems to me Cune should be capitalized too in the case of "CroCune".

    Edit: I agree with SDS on the issue of capitalization when the attack isn't spelled out. While Baton Pass is a specific attack, passing is simply an action.
  7. eric the espeon

    eric the espeon maybe I just misunderstood
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    Coining terms that are commonly used and make writing look better is a good idea. Wallbreaker and spinblocker should be the convention. I don't have a strong opinion about caps on move abbreviations, but think that MixApe and CroCune make sense. That way, it's easier for new players to identify which part of the name comes from the Pokemon and which from the set.
  8. Ray Jay

    Ray Jay "The sky's the limit, okey-dokey!"
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    Ok fair enough, I agree with that, let's just standardize it in some way! We all need to be doing the same thing.... what's the final verdict?
  9. Great Sage

    Great Sage

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    1. No hyphen.

    2. Not unless the full attack name is written out. "Scizor can Pass the Swords Dance boost on to another Pokemon." looks so awful.

    I support this, and would be willing to personally go through everything onsite to remove these instances.
  10. Rising_Dusk

    Rising_Dusk
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    It seems to be that the consensus for my first point is on coining spinblocker, wallbreaker, stallbreaker, and similar things. I think unless anyone has any lasting issues with these, the unanimous support for not using the hyphen speaks for itself and we will take that as convention henceforth.
    I'm neutral in this regard. I'd be OK with enforcing it either way, since both make sense to me for different reasons. Great Sage supports your suggestion, and I think the clarity of always knowing that 'you' refers to the battler only would be a good improvement for analyses and articles alike. I say we go with it.

    On the issue of the capitalization, I want to emphasize why I support capitalizing the attack references no matter what.
    Both of these actually have different meanings entirely. The second example suggests to me that Scizor is passing on the boost in the sense that he is not taking the boost or ignoring it. (Second definition) I know that we, as educated members of the community, know what it means, but newer users and casual readers may not. I do not like that sort of ambiguity.

    Either we should always force the author to spell out the entire attack or we should force the author to capitalize words directly referencing attacks. There is a level of clarity that can be obtained here that I feel is crucial. This also has impacts on the coining of the term Spinblocker, since it determines if Spinblocker should always be capitalized or not.
  11. Great Sage

    Great Sage

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    I have never seen "pass" used in Pokemon writing to mean the second definition that you noted, and furthermore, everyone who knows what Baton Pass does will be able to tell from context that the sentence means Baton Passing to something.

    Additionally, whether we capitalize words referencing attacks has no bearing on the capitalization of words like "spinblocker".
  12. Rising_Dusk

    Rising_Dusk
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    Perhaps you are right. If the general consensus is in agreement with you, I am more than willing to concede my point.
  13. cim

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    I say two words ("spinblocker" looks like crap) but if you have to use one word, no hyphen. Also, no capitalization for partial attacks, as SDS said.
  14. bojangles

    bojangles IF YOU TRULY BELIEVE,
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    Ok, gonna say that the final/official decision is that "coined" terms will not be hyphenated (wallbreaker > wall-breaker) and the verb will only be capitalized when the full move name is there ("Scizor can pass +2 Defense" and "Scizor can Baton Pass +2 Defense" but not "Scizor can Pass +2 Defense). Thanks Rising_Dusk for making the thread, and its nice to get resolved.

    This is the final decision for those who didn't read the bold.

    [​IMG]
  15. Great Sage

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    Wait, one more thing needs to be resolved: do we restrict the usage of "you" to only where it refers to the player himself? General sentiment is positive/neutral, but I would like to get a few more opinions.
  16. Fuzznip

    Fuzznip Hoo-hoo-hoo-hoo!
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    When using "you", I want it to refer to you as a battler and not your Pokemon. For example, this would be incorrect:

    • Jolteon's Thunderbolt OHKOes you.
    And this would be correct:

    • Jolteon's Thunderbolt OHKOes Gyarados.
    You are not OHKOed by Jolteon's Thunderbolt, Gyarados is. I think it's kind of misleading if we continued to use "you" as a reference to the Pokemon in the analysis. I support the restriction of "you" to the battler himself, and not the Pokemon.
  17. whistle

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    strongly agreed with Fuzznip on that point

    also I like the conclusion of the hyphens and move capitalization - thanks everyone and Rising_Dusk especially for making this thread
  18. jc104

    jc104 Humblest person ever
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    Just posting to say that I agree with the standardising of these things, although I couldn't care less whether there is a hyphen or not. As for the capitalisation of move names, I think it is preferable to use the full name of the move where possible, particulary where what is written has a different meaning outside of pokemon.

    As for the issue with the set names: in theory, when a prefix is used in front of a proper noun, a hyphen should be used. This is silly so I'm not suggesting making it Cro-Cune, but it means that whatever we do, we are breaking the rules. This means either way is equally good in terms of pure grammar. However, I believe CroCune to be superior, simply for reasons of clarity for new users.

    As for the "you" thing, it should definitely be enforced on occasions like that posted above by Fuzznip. In a sentence like "you can OHKO Gyarados with Thunderbolt," though, I am less sure, since you do select the move to make Jolteon OHKO, and as such you have indirectly OHKOed Gyarados.

    Also, I would quite like to mention two words that really annoy me when they are used incorrectly: "utilize" and "abuse". Both of these words are actually fairly similar, in that, particularly in the case of "abuse," they imply the use of something outside of its intended purpose. "Abuse" is more negative and suggests damage. In most cases in which these words are used, the moves are being used exactly as intended, and should as such be changed to "use" by grammar checkers. "Abuse" should be left to very extreme situations - even Jirachi's Iron Head is used as it was designed.

    However, these errors have been made so often that it could be considered almost as standard, so I will wait to see what everyone thinks.

    There is also one last thing that I feel needs to be clarified. I notice people regularly hyphenating stuff like "Normal-types". Note that this is not being used as an adjective before a noun "Normal-type Pokemon" or "Normal-type attacks." You also have things like "Blissey is a Normal-type." Given that no ambiguity can be created from this, I cannot see why it needs to be hyphenated. (note that I made up the examples)
  19. Rising_Dusk

    Rising_Dusk
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    Ditto. I agree with making 'you' refer to the battler.
    Prior convention. Normal-types and Blissey is a Normal-type is a convention for consistency. Notice that this does not apply for Normal typing, just when saying Normal-type. I am greatly in favor of keeping this how it is for consistency's sake. It makes both proofreading and reading it easier knowing that it's always the same.
    Agreed. CroCune is IMO the correct way to present it. It is the same for CurseLax, MixPert, and God knows how many others that we've always enforced. For the sake of consistency and clarifying which part comes from the Pokemon and which the set name, I strongly suggest we stick to CroCune and other such names.
  20. Great Sage

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    The hyphens for the types (Normal-type, Fire-type, etc.) are there because that's how it's written in the games. "Abuse" has essentially been hijacked to mean "use frequently to the point of excess", and it's common within the community, so I would leave it as it is.

    For the "you" issue, there seems to be concurrence that when you are referring to the Pokemon and only the Pokemon ("Thunderbolt OHKOes Gyarados", not "Thunderbolt OHKOes you"), you must use the Pokemon's name. In cases where it is ambiguous ("Jolteon can use Thunderbolt" vs. "you can use Thunderbolt" [i.e. you can click the button that says Thunderbolt]), I will leave it to the author's discretion.
  21. Matthew

    Matthew I love weather; Sun for days
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    after yelling with Eo and whistle on IRC for half an hour I think we came to the conclusion that spin blocker is better than spinblocker. Though it ended rather oddly so I don't really know their exact stances on the issue. Basically it should be spin blocker because we wouldn't use Rapid Spinblocker, that looks dumb and silly. the reason spin isn't capitalized in spin blocker is because I want to extend the 'don't capitalize verb rule' to nouns as well.

    Eo unlocked this for me, so yell at him
  22. whistle

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    ummm yeah... that is definitely not what our conclusion was, if you could even call the end of the discussion a conclusion (if you could even call it a discussion).

    addressing the end of your post first since I agree with that part, I am completely fine with “spinblocker” instead of “Spinblocker” (or “spin blocker” instead of “Spin blocker”) since bojangles' ruling wasn't exclusive of nouns. there is something else I want to add to this but it won't make as much sense if I say it here as if I say it at the end of my post.

    I also agree that “Rapid Spinblocker” looks stupid. but... I don't see the reason why that means we should say “spin blocker” instead of “spinblocker”. “Rapid Spinblocker” looks stupid because you are trying to make a shortened version of a combination of a two-word term and another word by lazily adding the second word to the end of the term. it would obviously be “Rapid Spin blocker”. it seems like your justification (this is just a guess on my part) is that we would drop “Rapid” from that and get the condensed version.

    but that begs the question of why we are dropping a word in the first place. we abbreviate it because that is what people have begun to do when referring to the concept. most people either write spin-blocker or spinblocker (ignoring capitalization) - but for our purposes both of those variants are identical; they are both one word, and bojangles' post above indicates we're getting rid of hyphens in cases like that. we have abbreviated the concept as a single word, not as a two-word phrase.

    finally, I referenced something in my second paragraph and I guess I'll put it here for logical consistency. another reason why it should be “spinblocker” and not “Spinblocker” is that it is a community created term, and by that virtue, what Nintendo deems “correct” in terms of capitalization should not have an impact on how we spell our term.
  23. Matthew

    Matthew I love weather; Sun for days
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    Ok well Eo seemed to be fine with spin blocker over spinblocker and you were just kicking people so like I said I didn't really get where either of you stand but it seemed like you were OK with it, sorry for putting words in your mouth.

    The problem is no matter what way you twist it 'spinblocker' isn't a word. Yes I know, we coined it, whatever, but even if we can use that as an excuse to add a non-word into our analysis it still makes our analysis look less intelligent from an outside perspective. There are things like OHKO / sweeper / tank which is more pokemon jargon than anything, and OHKO is an acronym more than anything. The problem is if we allow non-words into the analysis someone may read it and say "these guys don't even spell right, how can I trust their information is correct?" Of course it's an extreme case but we should try to avoid it.

    I'll just link you to this and then quote the rule which we should follow.

    "To check whether a compound noun is two words, one word, or hyphenated, you may need to look it up in the dictionary. If you can't find the word in the dictionary, treat the noun as separate words."

    Just so we're clear you won't find spinblocker, stallbreaker, or wallbreaker in the dictionary.

    and I agree it should be spin blocker not Spin blocker, the rule about shortening attacks should be extended to all forms
  24. Rising_Dusk

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    I stand by "spinblocker" and "wallbreaker" without either a hyphen or a space. Using a space instead of a hyphen is grammatically incorrect and also not common terminology. We are suggesting the coined terms spinblocker, wallbreaker, and stallbreaker (among other similarly formed ones) on the fact that they are coined. None of them are to be capitalized, and moves are only to be capitalized when they are fully instanced. (ie. Rotom-H can block Rapid Spin, Scizor can Baton Pass Swords Dance boosts, etc.)

    As to Genny's point --
    There are many things that are used incorrectly insofar as you are claiming it as a problem. STAB, for instance, is something that we allow as an adjective, when that which it abbreviates is not an adjective. Same Type Attack Bonus is a noun, yet we even go so far as to use it as a noun to entirely replace the word "attack" as a "STAB". (Again, another incorrect coined way to describe something) I think that the introduction of new words as coined terms is entirely legitimate; this is how new words are introduced in many different communities and endeavors. (such as Physics, a career I am very familiar with)
    I support this.
  25. bojangles

    bojangles IF YOU TRULY BELIEVE,
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    The community has "coined" words before (outspeed), so I don't see why the same can't apply to "wallbreaker/spinblocker/etc".

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