1. New to the forums? Check out our Mentorship Program!
    Our mentors will answer your questions and help you become a part of the community!
  2. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.

Updated Ubers Threat List

Discussion in 'BW Ubers' started by gookie, Aug 4, 2012.

  1. Jibaku

    Jibaku Not taking FS requests atm.
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Smogon IRC SOPis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Winner
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2005
    Messages:
    6,177
    Well that's a really big wall of post you got there, and while it's informative I would like for you (and everyone else really) to tone it down to keep the environment friendly. In particular, we don't need the immense use of bolding because that's just plain obnoxious.

    @Ranking: Honestly...why are we discussing ladder rankings? That is irrelevant to the topic at hand and is really a shady way to determine a player's skill. I could mention all my laddering accomplishments but really, it would only serve as a way to inflate ego...

    And then what? Lugia can't phaze it out because it would risk getting hit by a full blown Ice Beam in the face (which, yes, OHKOes Lugia cleanly from 100%). The moment Lugia reaches to full health and Kyurem-W is paralyzed, then it's forced to switch out or risk dying.

    Modest Specs Ice Beam vs 252 HP Lugia: 103%-121.6%


    And this is why I placed Lugia in tier 1, but it still remains that stall does not require Lugia to function properly, whereas entry hazards/spinblocking/Wish are essential. The problem with paralysis support from Lugia is that the most common way to stop it is to use defensive Pokemon who don't care about paralysis at all. Stuff like Forretress would gladly take TWave from Lugia to avoid getting burned by Giratina and friends. Not that Thunder Wave is a not a good choice, but as a supporting move it's not quite as universal. Speaking of which, most Lugia stoppers don't care about Toxic either.

    If any offensive Pokemon should deserve its own tier, it's Kyogre, because while it is powerful in itself, it can also share its power with the rest of the team due to Drizzle. It's the Pokemon that makes Kabutops, Manaphy, Kingdra and Thunder strong choices in Ubers, and Omastar, Tornadus-T, and Jynx viable. Then there are also defensive implications of Drizzle but that isn't really a big part to the offensive tier list.
  2. Pokémon Trainer R

    Pokémon Trainer R

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2010
    Messages:
    137
    Well, I'm sorry. The reason I bolded so many parts of my previous post was because my paragraphs were long, so I felt that bolding all the parts on which I emphasized would be an effective means of allowing others to understand my thoughts more easily, as they would see which parts of each paragraph are important or needs to be emphasized. But OK, I understand that it may appear unfriendly, so I won't do that anymore :)

    Yeah, I guess. In my first post in this thread, when I posted my modified version of your tier list, I just typed the first sentence in that post (in which I used my #1 position on Pokémon Showdown's Ubers ladder to justify my own qualification for making my own tier list) entirely for fun, just because I thought it sounded cool and looked aesthetically awesome to my eyes. Then others who replied to this thread responded to that sentence of mine seriously, and I myself ended up getting carried away too with that discussion. But yeah, we should end this discussion.

    True, I would switch to Ho-Oh after Lugia gets back to full health. Still though, you have to admit that the ability to Roost-loop a Choice Specs-holding Pokémon's Same Type Attack Bonus, super effective Ice Beam coming from 170 base Special Attack, which also has an Ability that negates Multiscale, with only paralysis support, and using that Pokémon as fodder for healing oneself in order to have Multiscale intact the next time it comes in... is absolutely insane :o

    Yes, but non-stall teams appreciate defense as well. And from my experience, Lugia is an excellent Pokémon that one can just throw into a bulky offense team, and simply use it as a quick and cheap way to immediately have a solid answer to Palkia, Mewtwo lacking Taunt, Latias, Latios, Rayquaza, offensive Groudon, and many other threats. Actually, this is what my team basically does, and it works wonder. No other Pokémon can serve this purpose anywhere near as effectively, which is why I place Lugia in a tier of its own at the top, in terms of defense. Yes, people can just switch defensive Pokémon into Lugia... but look at all the benefits just one Pokémon brings to the table. Look how many threats you can have covered just because your team has Lugia. This Pokémon's pros far eclipse its cons.

    Kyogre's Drizzle should only be considered as a form of "offense" insofar as that it increases Kyogre's own power though (basically, powering up its Water-type moves and giving its Thunder perfect accuracy). The benefits Drizzle gives to other Pokémon is something that should instead go under the yet-to-be-created Support Tier List, which Mr.lol previously suggested (and I agree that one should definitely be made).
  3. bygbyrd

    bygbyrd

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2011
    Messages:
    45
    I have to agree with PTR that Lugia is the best defensive pokemon simply because it can wall so many high-level threats pretty much by itself. Wanting rocks off the field is a huge downside but it can still stand in the face LO Mewtwo's ice beam after rocks, para it, and roost up; that's an impressive endeavor.

    However anyone's opinion on "the best" defensive or offensive pokemon is negligible because there's really no point in having a tier for one pokemon. It would look rather silly like this:

    Tier 1

    Arceus Normal
    [​IMG]
    [Paragraph]

    Tier Two

    Kyogre
    [​IMG]
    [Paragraph]

    Groudon

    Maybe that example wasn't nessasary but you see the point I'm making. Whether you call it Tier One or not, Arceus can be placed as the first offensive threat with the paragraph explaining how WoW and para are shaky ways to check it and that every team should prepare for it, etc. The point of a threat list is to show the threat itself and how/why it is so threatening. That is where the paragraph comes in. That's the important part. Also, I feel that calling the other threats Tier Two and so on undermines how much of a threat they are. If you feel like Arceus is the best, thats fine. But as far as a threat list is concerned, he is in the same catagorey as Kyogre, Rayquaza, and the like.

    I support a support tier (terrible pun intended), as it can show the difference between defensive behemoths and team supporters. You would have pokemon on the thread twice, but that's not really a problem. Since there are few discrepancies between who goes where and what pokemon should be on the list, I'd love to see this start to come together. I'm more than willing to do some paragraphs if you all want some help.
  4. locoghoul

    locoghoul

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2008
    Messages:
    818
    I stopped reading after this. DW Ubers is actually less competitive on PO, but if you wanted a cookie for your laddering accomplishments, you can have one.
  5. ssbbm

    ssbbm

    Joined:
    May 14, 2010
    Messages:
    1,020
    you really only will be able to roost loop if lugia is already damaged: assuming kyurem-w comes in on a full health lugia (because you are not going to switch lugia in on kyurem-w..) kyurem-w wins 100%
  6. Pokémon Trainer R

    Pokémon Trainer R

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2010
    Messages:
    137
    I have temporarily removed all the contents of my post at the bottom of the first page of this thread, as upon viewing it a second time just now, I have realized that my tone throughout almost the entirety of that message, especially in combination with the excessive bolding that Jibaku pointed out previously, looked extremely unfriendly, impatient, and possibly even impolite (even when Jibaku pointed that out to me before, despite responding to his post with agreement, I actually still didn't realize exactly how bad it was at the time, until I reread that post today). I didn't really mean to come off in such a way, so I apologize if I have offended or intimidated anyone with that previous post. At the time when I posted that message, I had returned home after a long day at University (I left home at 8:00am, and returned at 6:00pm), and was additionally rather overwhelmed both by the sheer number of arguments I had to address in this thread (I guess I should have expected such, as I knew that my tier lists were controversial), and also the fact that several people I addressed in that message didn't seem to understand exactly what I was saying in the post before that, despite the fact that I remember going to a lot of effort to explain things as precisely as possible. Especially since I was tired and therefore not in the best mood, I went overboard in deliberately placing a huge amount of emphasis and stress upon various important points that I wanted to convey (with the subconscious desire to make others understand my arguments as quickly and easily as possible so I wouldn't have to clarify things as much in the future, because I was tired as I said), completely unaware at the time of how unsightly the message turned out as a result. I'll edit that post of mine and repost the information contained in it in a much calmer and friendlier way later when I have time, but if anyone wishes to see the original contents of that message for any reason, such as if they wish to address some of the arguments contained in it in order to contribute to the discussion in this thread, then feel free to private message me :)
  7. trickroom

    trickroom
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2009
    Messages:
    1,002
    I just listed down all the sets according to Jibaku's list. This will be later updated into the Ubers RMT section as the new Ubers threat list. Since the OU tier has a threat list that lists all the sets, I think Ubers should have one too.

    Offensive Tier List

    Tier 1
    Kyogre
    -Choice Specs
    -Choice Scarf
    -Thunder Wave
    -Calm Mind RestTalk
    -Calm Mind + 3 attacks
    -Sleep Talk + Roar
    -Chesto Rest Calm Mind

    Arceus-Normal
    -Swords Dance
    -Choice Band

    Arceus-Ghost
    -Calm Mind
    -Swords Dance

    Mewtwo
    -Calm Mind +3 Attacks
    -Recover + 3 Attacks
    -Substitute Calm Mind
    -All Out Attacker
    -Choice Scarf

    Palkia
    -Specially Offensive Lustrous Orb
    -Choice Scarf
    -Choice Specs
    -Haban Berry
    -Mixed

    Dialga
    -Choice Specs
    -Mixed
    -Choice Scarf
    -Bulk Up

    Groudon
    -Rock Polish
    -Double Booster
    -Earth Plate/Life Orb + SR
    -Swords Dance + Thunder Wave
    -Choice Band

    Kyurem-W
    -Choice Specs
    -Choice Scarf
    -Life Orb 3 Attacks + Roost

    Arceus-Ground
    -Swords Dance
    -Calm Mind

    Latios
    -Calm Mind
    -All Out Attacker
    -Dual Screens

    Latias
    -Offensive Calm Mind
    -Bulky Calm Mind

    Ho-Oh
    -Tank
    -Offensive Flame Charge
    -Choice Scarf
    -Choice Band

    Rayquaza
    -Dragon Dance
    -Mixed
    -Mixed Dancer
    -Swords Dance
    -Choice Scarf
    -Choice Band

    Darkrai
    -Nasty Plot
    -Mono Attacker + Sub
    -Choice Scarf
    -Focus Sash

    Arceus-Fighting
    -Calm Mind

    Tier 2
    Giratina-O
    -Mixed Dragon Tail
    -Calm Mind + Sub
    -Calm Mind RestTalk
    -3 Attacks + Sub

    Zekrom
    -Choice Band
    -Mixed
    -Choice Scarf
    -Hone Claws

    Reshiram
    -Choice Specs
    -Choice Scarf
    -Sunny Day
    -Sub / Roost +3 Attacks

    Deoxys-A
    -Focus Sash
    -Life Orb Attacker

    Shaymin-S
    -Sub Seed
    -Life Orb + Growth
    -Choice Scarf
    -Choice Specs

    Terrakion
    -Choice Scarf
    -Swords Dance + Rock Polish
    -Choice Band

    Excadrill
    -Bulky Attacker
    -Sand Rush abuse

    Arceus-Steel
    -Calm Mind

    Arceus-Dark
    -Calm Mind mono Attacker

    Arceus-Electric
    -Calm Mind

    Gyarados
    -Taunt Support
    -Choice Band
    -Choice Scarf
    -Sleep Talk + Dragon Dance
    -Muscular Carp
    -Offensive Dragon Dance
    -Bulldoze + Dragon Tail
    -Thunder Wave Flinch abuse
    -Triple Status ( Scald + Thunder Wave + Toxic)
    -Angry Fishy ( Outrage )

    Kabutops
    -Swords Dance
    -3 Attacks + Rapid Spin
    Choice Band

    Garchomp
    -Swords Dance + Sub sand abuse
    -Choice Band
    -Choice Scarf
    -Haban Berry + Swords Dance

    Blaziken
    -Swords Dance
    -Roar + SD

    Tyranitar
    -Choice Band
    -Tank

    Arceus-Dragon
    -Swords Dance
    -Calm Mind
    -Calm Mind + Sub / Refresh

    Salamence
    -Scarf Moxie
    -Dragon Dance

    Kingdra
    -Rain Mixed
    -Rain Physically based mixed
    -Choice Specs

    Mamoswine
    -Life Orb Attacker
    -Lead Focus Sash

    Kyurem-B
    -Mixed
    -Choice Band
    -Choice Scarf
    -Hone Claws

    Genesect
    -Choice Scarf
    -Choice Band
    -3 Attacks + Explosion
    -Rock Polish

    Tier 3
    Thundurus
    -Nasty Plot
    -Thunder Wave Focus Sash

    Arceus-Grass
    -Calm Mind

    Arceus-Rock
    -Swords Dance
    -Calm Mind
    -Mono Attacker

    Arceus-Water
    -Calm Mind
    -Swords Dance
    -Mono + Refresh

    Arceus-Fire
    -Calm Mind

    Venusaur
    -Life Orb Specially Offensive Growth
    -Mixed

    Metagross
    -Choice Band
    -Stealth Rock +3 Attacks

    Scizor
    -Choice Band
    -Roost +3 Attacks

    Cloyster
    -Shell Smash
    Smeargle

    Gorebyss
    -Smash Pass

    Manaphy
    -Tail Glow
    -Calm Mind
    -Staller

    Arceus-Ice
    -Calm Mind

    Arceus-Psychic
    -Calm Mind

    Tornadus-T
    -Standard Life Orb + U-turn
    -Choice Specs

    Landorus
    -Swords Dance
    -Rock Polish
    -Mixed

    Lugia
    -Offensive Calm Mind

    Giratina
    -Calm Mind + Chesto Berry
    -Calm Mind RestTalk

    Landorus-T
    -Swords Dance + Sub

    Magnezone
    -Standard Sub + Charge Beam
    -Choice Specs

    Tier 4
    Thundurus-T
    -Nasty Plot

    Tornadus
    -Tailwind + 3 Attacks
    -Choice Specs

    Hydreigon
    -Choice Scarf

    Abomasnow
    -Standard Tank

    Arceus-Flying
    -Calm Mind

    Shiftry
    -Nasty Plot

    Omastar
    -Shell Smash

    Jynx
    -Nasty Plot + Sub

    Ludicolo
    -Special Attacker

    Victini
    -Choice Scarf
    -Choice Band
    -Trick Room abuse

    Heracross
    -Choice Scarf

    Arceus-Poison
    -Calm Mind

    Arceus-Bug
    -Calm Mind
    -Swords Dance

    Bisharp
    -Swords Dance
    -Bulky Swords Dance + Low Sweep

    Dugtrio
    -Hone Claws Trapper

    Gengar
    -Choice Scarf

    Tier 5
    Deoxys
    -Lead + Sash
    -Life Orb Attacker

    Lucario
    -Swords Dance
    -Nasty Plot

    Shedinja
    -Focus Sash


    Defensive Tier List:

    Tier 1
    Ferrothorn
    -Standard Leech Seed + Spikes

    Groudon
    -Physical Wall
    -Specially Defensive

    Lugia
    -Great Wall #1 ( Reflect )
    -Sub Toxic
    -Specially Defensive
    -Calm Mind

    Giratina
    -Great Wall #2
    -Specially Defensive
    -Calm Mind

    Dialga
    -Support

    Blissey
    -Standard Wish
    -Fire Blast + Softboiled

    Chansey
    -Standard
    -Physically Defensive

    Forretress
    -Standard Spikes + Spin

    Arceus-Ghost
    -Support
    -Calm Mind

    Arceus-Steel
    -Calm Mind
    -Support

    Arceus-Grass
    -Support

    Latias
    -Calm Mind
    -Bulky Calm Mind

    Kyogre
    -Fat Choice Scarf
    -RestTalk + Roar Scald
    -Calm Mind Sleep Talk

    Giratina-O
    -Mixed
    -Double Phazer
    -Physically Defensive Will-O-Wisp

    Tier 2
    Arceus-Ground
    -Support
    -Physically Defensive
    -Swords Dance

    Gyarados - Most versatile wall ever, no contest.
    -Taunt Support
    -Choice Scarf
    -Waterfall + 3 Attacks
    -Sub Dragon Tail
    -Defensive Scald
    -Sleep Talk + Dragon Dance
    -Muscular Carp
    -Bulldoze + Dragon Tail
    -Thunder Wave Flinch ( Waterfall + Headbutt + Iron Head ) abuse
    -Triple Status ( Scald + Thunder Wave + Toxic)

    Skarmory
    -Standard Spikes

    Gliscor
    -Sub Toxic

    Jirachi
    -Standard Wish
    -Choice Scarf

    Excadrill
    -Bulky Attacker

    Tentacruel
    -Tank + Scald
    -Acupressure

    Heatran
    -Tank + Taunt
    -Choice Scarf

    Ho-Oh
    -Standard Tank
    -Physically Defensive
    -Bulky Scarf

    Tyranitar
    -Specially Defensive Tank

    Arceus-Fighting
    -Utility Counter

    Arceus-Poison
    -Support

    Arceus-Rock
    -Support

    Palkia
    -Choice Scarf
    -Dragon Tail + 3 Attacks

    Tier 3
    Arceus-Water
    -Sun Support

    Arceus-Normal
    -Arceus Physical Wall

    Arceus-Psychic
    -Specially Defensive

    Arceus-Dark
    -Specially Defensive

    Landorus-T
    -Stealth Rock + U-Turn

    Metagross
    -Tank

    Mewtwo
    -StallTwo

    Cresselia
    -Lunar Dance + Dual Screens
    -Physically Defensive
    -Specially Defensive

    Hippowdon
    -Physical Wall

    Xatu
    -Standard

    Tier 4
    Gastrodon
    -Standard Tank

    Whimsicott
    -Standard SubSeed

    Jumpluff
    -Sun SubSeed

    Venusaur
    -Sub Seed + Sludge Bomb

    Deoxys-D
    -Agility + Taunt
    -Support Spikes

    Ludicolo
    -SubSeed Rain Dish

    Tier 5
    Parasect
    -Dry Skin + Leech Seed
    -Spore Attacker
    -Choice Band
    -Occa Berry + Swords Dance

    Bad Pokemon that currently have analyses. Except for Gyarados - he's just there because of trickroom, so I am listing all the viable Gyarados sets. Don't listen to Jibaku, Gyarados will one day conquer the Ubers tier again. I am sure by late December, the ladder will be infested with hungry Gyaradoses due to its versatility and access to Brave Bird one day.

    Oh if possible, can Furai/Poppy/Barry please add in the sprites and summit this threat list to Bloo / any other RMT moderator in charge of the RMT threat list section? Too long don't read, I am too busy and lazy to add in all the sprites at the moment.
  8. barry4ever

    barry4ever
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2009
    Messages:
    877
    DERP -________________- (open)


    Just saying that while i mostly agree with the above, I have a minor qualm. Physically defensive Groudon shouldn't be that high on the defensive list since its not a very good physical wall now as its slightly weak without investment and can be wiped out by anything with a strong special move. It can just postpone most physical attacker sweeps anyway tbh except for some like Zekro.
  9. trickroom

    trickroom
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2009
    Messages:
    1,002
    There's one problem. Groudon brings the sun and that alone is a huge bonus to any stall team. We are not just rating base on sheer bulk or recovery to check threats repeatedly. Its more of what it brings and provides the team.

    In Groudon's case, a weather changer, and yes its that important, otherwise Kyogre + Manaphy or even Kabutops in certain cases will run over stall teams easily. Setting up Stealth Rock is just as a bonus. Thanks to Drought, Groudon can immediately OHKO Forretress after Sturdy breaks and Ferrothorn. Others such as Ground Arceus and even offensive walls such as Ghost Arceus struggles to do so. Since weather changes a lot in Ubers, Groudon is really a level above other walls in terms of Support. Well lack of recovery sucks, but Rayquaza is still checked by Groudon through Dragon Tail and Groudon can abuse entry hazard with it. Groudon immediately wrecks some dangerous physical attackers though so that's still something. Stone Edge kills Ho-Oh (you need to outrun it), Rayquaza, Kyurem-B. Earthquake smashes Zekrom, Tyranitar and Excadrill.

    Also, Jibaku rated Groudon in that exact position. I just followed it
  10. barry4ever

    barry4ever
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2009
    Messages:
    877
    While, Drought is indeed a major asset for Groudon, you're missing my point. What i wanted to note is that apart from bringing in Drought, Groudon isn't stellar in physical walling except in certain specific departments. I was just wondering why its above stuff like Giratina / Lugia / Defensive Ogre. Also why are we restricting the defensive list only to stall :/, balanced teams need the occasional bulky pivot as well (lets not devolve into an arguement about team nomenclature)
  11. trickroom

    trickroom
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2009
    Messages:
    1,002
    Then you have to ask Jibaku why he put Groudon ahead of Lugia and Giratina as walls. Well Giratina has a nasty Dragon-type weakness which is horrible, although the resistances help a lot. To be fair both Kyogre and Giratina lack reliable recovery too, as they have to depend on Rest.

    Most balanced teams still love Groudon more than Lugia though because Groudon can still hit decently hard, stops Spikes users and kills Rapid Spinners.

    Let's just say Groudon is a physical tank that provides a lot of support to most teams, more than Lugia can. In terms of pure walling and phazing, Lugia is usually better :)
  12. bygbyrd

    bygbyrd

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2011
    Messages:
    45
    Small nitpick I don't think Mewtwo needs an "all out attacker" set as you can just slash CM with coverage moves. Terrakions Taunt/Sub and SD should be in there, as it beats Roar and Dragon Tail Giritina, respectively.
  13. asterat

    asterat

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2011
    Messages:
    964
    I would switch hippowdown and excadrill for defensives. I would also make gliscor tier 1.
  14. Superimp

    Superimp

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2012
    Messages:
    62
    Newly Formatted Ubers Threat List
    The Ubers Threat List has now been fully formatted for implementation into the Ubers RMT section. All sprites have been implemented. Missing Pokemon such as Bronzong and Qwilfish have been implemented. All Pokemon have been updated whenever possible with standard, official sets. For more details on the differences between this threat list and the previous, please check the comments of this document.

    Anyway, here is the threat list for final discussion, tweaks, etc. from everyone before it is hopefully PMed to a RMT moderator in charge of the RMT threat list section in the next few days. In particular, discussion on what to do with the Miscellaneous Threats might be beneficial.

    Thanks go to trickroom for providing the base of the threat list as well as informative comments/feedback! Thanks also go to Jibaku and Poppy for their original threat lists, as well as anyone who contributed to the threat lists.

    -------------------------------------​

    Standard Ubers Offensive Threats

    Tier 1: The premier threats of the Uber metagame. They must be accounted for in every team, as they will dominate singlehandedly unless met with significant resistance.

    [​IMG] Arceus
    • Extreme Killer (Swords Dance) -
    • Bandceus (Choice Band) -
    [​IMG] Arceus-Ghost
    • Calm Mind -
    • Swords Dance -
    [​IMG] Darkrai
    • Special Sweeper -
    • Choice Scarf -
    • Double Status -
    [​IMG] Dialga
    • Special Attacker -
    • Mixed -
    • Bulk Up + RestTalk -
    • Choice Scarf -
    [​IMG] Groudon
    • Rock Polish -
    • Paradancer -
    • Choice Band -
    • Offensive Stealth Rock -
    [​IMG] Ho-Oh
    • Tank -
    • Choice Band -
    • Physical Sweeper -
    • Choice Scarf -
    [​IMG] Kyogre
    • Choice Specs -
    • Choice Scarf -
    • Offensive -
    • RestTalk -
    • Water Gem Lure -
    • Bulky Booster -
    [​IMG] Kyurem-W
    • Choice Specs -
    • Burning Red White Kyurem (Choice-less) -
    • Choice Scarf -
    [​IMG] Latias
    • All-Out Attacker -
    • Defensive Calm Mind -
    • Offensive Pivot -
    [​IMG] Latios
    • All-Out Attacker -
    • Calm Mind -
    • Special Dragon Dance -
    [​IMG] Mewtwo
    • Psycho Killer -
    • Bulky Booster -
    • Choice Scarf -
    [​IMG] Palkia
    • Choice Scarf -
    • Specially Based Mix -
    • Choice Specs -
    • Blissey Boxer -
    • Physically Based Mix -
    [​IMG] Rayquaza
    • Dragon Dance -
    • Mixed Attacker -
    • Mixed Dancer -
    • Swords Dance -
    • Choice Scarf -
    • Choice Band -

    Tier 2: The major threats of the Uber metagame. While alone they are not as dominating as Tier 1 threats, combined with a little team support, they can be downright terrifying in their own right.

    [​IMG] Arceus-Dark
    • Calm Mind -
    [​IMG] Arceus-Dragon
    • Swords Dance -
    • Calm Mind -
    [​IMG] Arceus-Electric
    • Calm Mind -
    [​IMG] Arceus-Fighting
    • Calm Mind -
    [​IMG] Arceus-Ground
    • Calm Mind -
    • Swords Dance -
    [​IMG] Arceus-Steel
    • Calm Mind -
    • Swords Dance -
    [​IMG] Blaziken
    • Swords Dance -
    [​IMG] Deoxys-A
    • Focus Sash Attacker -
    • Sash Lead -
    • Life Orb -
    [​IMG] Excadrill
    • Bulky -
    • Offensive -
    [​IMG] Garchomp
    • Choice Scarf -
    • Swords Dance -
    • Choice Band -
    • Substitute + Swords Dance -
    [​IMG] Genesect
    • Physically Based Choice Scarf -
    • Specially Based Choice Scarf -
    • Special Attacker -
    • Choice Band -
    [​IMG] Giratina-O
    • Mixed Attacker -
    • SubCM -
    • Sleeping Beauty (Mono-Attacker) -
    • Substitute Shuffler -
    • Offensive Calm Mind -
    [​IMG] Kabutops
    • Cleaner -
    • Choice Band -
    [​IMG] Kingdra
    • Mixed Attacker -
    • Dragon Dance -
    • Choice Specs -
    [​IMG] Kyurem-B
    • Choice Band -
    • Mixed -
    • Choice Scarf -
    • Hone Claws -
    [​IMG] Mamoswine
    • Physical Attacker -
    [​IMG] Reshiram
    • Choice Specs -
    • Offensive -
    • Flame Charge -
    • SubRoost -
    • Sunny Day -
    • Choice Scarf -
    [​IMG] Shaymin-S
    • SubSeed -
    • Choice Scarf -
    • Special Sweeper -
    • Choice Specs -
    [​IMG] Terrakion
    • Choice Scarf -
    • Double Dancer -
    • Choice Band -
    • Substitute + Swords Dance -
    [​IMG] Tyranitar
    • Tank -
    • Choice Band -
    [​IMG] Zekrom
    • Mixed -
    • Choice Band -
    • Choice Scarf -
    • Substitute + Hone Claws -
    • Tailwind -

    Tier 3: The minor threats of the Uber metagame. More situational and less potent than Tier 2 threats, but when combined with a lot of team support, they can be quite frightening.

    [​IMG] Arceus-Fire
    • Calm Mind -
    [​IMG] Arceus-Grass
    • Calm Mind -
    [​IMG] Arceus-Ice
    • Calm Mind -
    [​IMG] Arceus-Psychic
    • Calm Mind -
    [​IMG] Arceus-Rock
    • Mono-Attacker -
    • Offensive Calm Mind -
    • Swords Dance -
    [​IMG] Arceus-Water
    • Swords Dance -
    • Offensive Calm Mind -
    • Defensive Calm Mind -
    [​IMG] Cloyster
    • Shell Smash -
    • Offensive Support -
    [​IMG] Heatran
    • Choice Scarf -
    [​IMG] Giratina
    • Boosting Tank -
    • Chesto Rest -
    [​IMG] Gorebyss
    • Smash Pass -
    [​IMG] Jirachi
    • Choice Scarf -
    [​IMG] Landorus
    • Swords Dance -
    • Choice Scarf -
    [​IMG] Landorus-T
    • SubSD -
    • Double Dance -
    • Choice Band -
    [​IMG] Lugia
    • Calm Mind -
    [​IMG] Magnezone
    • SubCharge -
    • Choice Specs -
    • Dual Screens -
    [​IMG] Manaphy
    • Calm Mind -
    • Tail Glow -
    [​IMG] Metagross
    • Choice Band -
    [​IMG] Omastar
    • Shell Smash -
    [​IMG] Salamence
    • Choice Scarf -
    • Dragon Dance -
    [​IMG] Scizor
    • Choice Band -
    • Swords Dance -
    • Specially Defensive -
    [​IMG] Thundurus
    • Prankster -
    • Nasty Plot -
    [​IMG] Tornadus-T
    • Life Orb Attacker -
    • Choice Specs -
    [​IMG] Venusaur
    • Special Growth -
    • Mixed Growth -

    Tier 4: The lesser threats of the Uber metagame. They usually cover a specific niche and are mediocre otherwise.

    [​IMG] Arceus-Bug
    • Calm Mind -
    • Swords Dance -
    [​IMG] Arceus-Flying
    • Calm Mind -
    [​IMG] Arceus-Poison
    • Calm Mind -
    [​IMG] Beartic
    • Swords Dance -
    [​IMG] Bisharp
    • Swords Dance -
    [​IMG] Bronzong
    • Trickroom -
    • Choice Band -
    [​IMG] Dugtrio
    • Substitute + Hone Claws -
    [​IMG] Espeon
    • Focus Sash Attacker -
    [​IMG] Ferrothorn
    • Choice Band -
    [​IMG] Heracross
    • Choice Scarf -
    • Choice Band -
    [​IMG] Hydreigon
    • Choice Scarf -
    [​IMG] Jynx
    • Nasty Plot -
    [​IMG] Keldeo
    • Calm Mind -
    • Attacking Lead -
    [​IMG] Ludicolo
    • Rain Sweeper -
    [​IMG] Qwilfish
    • Support -
    • Swords Dance -
    [​IMG] Shiftry
    • Special Sweeper -
    [​IMG] Thundurus-T
    • All-Out Attacker -
    [​IMG] Tornadus
    • Tailwind -
    [​IMG] Victini
    • Choice Scarf -
    • Choice Band -
    • Trickroom -

    Tier 5: The trivial threats of the Uber metagame. They pose little threat unless backed with ridiculous team support.

    [​IMG] Shedinja
    • Wall -
    • Swords Dance -
    Standard Ubers Defensive Threats

    Tier 1: The premier threats of the Uber metagame. They provide considerable utility and cover a wide range of threats unless they are adequately dealt with.

    [​IMG] Arceus-Ghost
    • Calm Mind -
    • Support -
    [​IMG] Arceus-Grass
    • Calm Mind -
    • Support -
    [​IMG] Arceus-Steel
    • Calm Mind -
    • Support -
    [​IMG] Blissey
    • Support -
    [​IMG] Chansey
    • Support -
    [​IMG] Dialga
    • Defensive -
    [​IMG] Ferrothorn
    • Support -
    [​IMG] Forretress
    • Support -
    [​IMG] Giratina
    • Great Wall -
    • Specially Defensive -
    [​IMG] Giratina-O
    • Mixed Attacker -
    • RestTalk Shuffler -
    [​IMG] Groudon
    • Support -
    [​IMG] Kyogre
    • RestTalk -
    [​IMG] Latias
    • Defensive Calm Mind -
    • Specially Defensive -
    [​IMG] Lugia
    • Great Wall -
    • Calm Mind -
    [​IMG] Skarmory
    • Support -

    Tier 2: The major threats of the Uber metagame. While they are not as supportive or bulky as Tier 1 threats, they are still quite potent in their own right.

    [​IMG] Arceus
    • Wallceus (Physical Wall) -
    [​IMG] Arceus-Fighting
    • Utility Counter -
    [​IMG] Arceus-Ground
    • Support -
    [​IMG] Arceus-Poison
    • Support -
    [​IMG] Arceus-Rock
    • Mono-Attacker -
    [​IMG] Arceus-Water
    • Defensive Calm Mind -
    • Sun Support -
    [​IMG] Excadrill
    • Bulky -
    [​IMG] Gliscor
    • Substitute -
    [​IMG] Heatran
    • Stallbreaker -
    [​IMG] Ho-Oh
    • Tank -
    • Physically Defensive -
    [​IMG] Jirachi
    • Specially Defensive -
    [​IMG] Landorus-T
    • Defensive -
    [​IMG] Tentacruel
    • Support -
    [​IMG] Tyranitar
    • Tank -
    • Choice Band -

    Tier 3: The minor threats of the Uber metagame. More situational and less potent than Tier 2 threats, but are still quite effective.

    [​IMG] Arceus-Dark
    • Support -
    [​IMG] Arceus-Psychic
    • Utility Counter -
    [​IMG] Bronzong
    • Tank -
    [​IMG] Cresselia
    • Lunar Dance + Dual Screens -
    • Wall -
    [​IMG] Deoxys-D
    • Agility + Taunt -
    • Utility Wall -
    [​IMG] Hippowdon
    • Physical Wall -
    [​IMG] Metagross
    • Choice Band -
    [​IMG] Mewtwo
    • StallTwo -
    [​IMG] Palkia
    • Choice Scarf -
    [​IMG] Scizor
    • Specially Defensive -
    [​IMG] Xatu
    • Dual Screens -

    Tier 4: The lesser threats of the Uber metagame. They usually cover a specific niche and are mediocre otherwise.

    [​IMG] Abomasnow
    • Leech Seed -
    [​IMG] Gastrodon
    • Tank -
    [​IMG] Gyarados
    • Tauntrados -
    [​IMG] Jumpluff
    • Support -
    • SubSeed -
    [​IMG] Ludicolo
    • SubSeed -
    [​IMG] Whimsicott
    • SubSeed -

    Tier 5: The trivial threats of the Uber metagame. They pose little threat unless backed with ridiculous team support.

    [​IMG] Shedinja
    • Wall -
    • Swords Dance -
    Standard Ubers Miscellaneous Threats

    [​IMG] Deoxys
    • Offensive Dual Screens -
    [​IMG] Deoxys-S
    • Suicide Lead -
    • Dual Screens -
    • Choice Scarf -
    [​IMG] Ditto
    • Imposter -
    [​IMG] Forretress
    • Custap Lead -
    [​IMG] Froslass
    • Spikes -
    [​IMG] Latios
    • Dual Screens -
    [​IMG] Skarmory
    • Custap Lead -
    [​IMG] Smeargle
    • Smash Pass -
    • Lv 1 FEAR -
    [​IMG] Wobbuffet
    • OH NO, IT’S WOBBA! -
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2013
  15. lousy918

    lousy918

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2012
    Messages:
    325
    Actually, now that Ditto has Imposter, it should be up there somewhere, maybe Tier 1 or 2. (I'd prefer it to be banned, but oh well).

    And I disagree with Gyarados, Kyogre has better speed despite not being a part Flying-type.
  16. gookie

    gookie Administrator
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2010
    Messages:
    2,863
    Hippowdon's problem is that there are very few things it can outspeed and Recover on, meaning you have to be very careful with monitoring its HP.

    Excadrill, while not strictly better defensively does a lot more, it can also lay SR, spin, and have good offensive presence allowing it to check important Pokemon like Dialga in the rain and some variants of Latias.

    Gliscor is in tier 2 because while it has great utility defensively speaking it can't stop that many threats unless it already has a sub up. It's really good, sure, but I wouldn't place it in the same tier with things like Lugia and Arceus.

    Deoxys-D should be moved up from Tier 4 to Tier 3 IMO, it can lay down Spikes and Wall Mewtwo, while also pseudo-stall breaking with Toxic + Taunt. Better than Gastrodon.

    Lando-T should be moved up from Tier 3 to Tier 2 defensively, it can check ExtremeKiller in a pinch Toxic things, be reasonably fast, have U-turn, Stealth Rock, etc. Ground and Fighting resistances / immunities are great.

    Jirachi should be tier 1 defensively, being an excellent response to Latias and Mewtwo in rain, in addition to being a good Kyurem-W and most CM Arceus Formes check AND having the ability to set up Stealth Rock.

    Palkia should be tier 3 defensively, it's pretty damn frail and it can't really switch in on anything with a guarantee as Kyogre can still smack it with Thunder.

    Arceus Water should be tier 2 defensively, it checks a considerable amount of sun threats like Ho-Oh, Reshiram, and Kyurem-W while also providing a Water-type resistance for rain teams.

    Tornadus-I should be tier 3 offensively, it is the best user of Prankster Tailwind with the ability to abuse it itself, STAB Hurricane and a decent base 125 SpA is pretty good.

    Salamence should be tier 3 offensively, its Choice Scarf set is a decent cleaner but flawed because its strongest move locks it in and leaves it vulnerable, it is also SR weak which is never good for a Choice Scarf user. Don't pretend like anyone uses the DD set.

    I'm tempted to put Genesect it tier 1 because it's so useful, but it obviously isn't hard to handle in and of itself.
  17. syrim

    syrim 1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2009
    Messages:
    236
    Hippowdon is capable of walling Zekrom, Groudon, extremekiller, and even of phazing Rayquaza whilst providing SR. With its new ability it can function much like a Groudon with recovery for rain teams, without using up your arceus slot on a defensive form. I think this niche qualifies it for tier 2.
  18. gookie

    gookie Administrator
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2010
    Messages:
    2,863
    Tier 2 or 3 are both agreeable with me in regards to Hippowdon's placement, however, I was primarily in disagreement with Excadrill being moved down a tier.
  19. ssbbm

    ssbbm

    Joined:
    May 14, 2010
    Messages:
    1,020
    i think genesect should be tier 1 *something* - it's the best dd rayquaza check, checks sd arceus, check lati@s... it's a top tier pokemon for sure

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)