Metagame USUM Memetagame Discussion was a mistake

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As a suicide lead wouldn't Ribombee outclass Araquanid? She doesn't suffer from essentially only having two moves worth using (liquidation + webs) and can at least cripple something like the aformentioned pinsir with stun spore, along with 2hko'ing lando with hp ice.
Araquanid has strong Liquidation and rare Mirror Coat to have much, much more offensive presence than Ribombee, and it has Magic Coat to make sure that hazards won't be on your side, under the assumption you predict appropriately.
 
Araquanid has strong Liquidation and rare Mirror Coat to have much, much more offensive presence than Ribombee, and it has Magic Coat to make sure that hazards won't be on your side, under the assumption you predict appropriately.
Not sure I would say more offensive presence. Yes, Liquidation hurts like mad, but as far as offense, that's all it has. Ribombee is fast, has a decent SpA, and can run 3 attacks to allow it to get webs up easier. Not to mention, Bug and Fairy are pretty good STABs to have. It depends on what you're needing from a web setter. A 'mon that can get them up quick and is capable of taking out faster threats, or a bulkier one who can magic coat and get off slow hard hitting Liquidations.
 

Finchinator

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I don't think either are too great, to be honest, but Araquanid clearly seems better. Ribombee is surviving like two turns max with the horrible natural bulk it has and it also only has 95 SAtk whereas Araquanid does plenty of damage with Liquidation. I think that the role of Sticky Web setter does not necessarily need to be restricted to Suicide Lead either, seeing as the presence of Defog is so prominent. A sturdier, potentially multiple-time-setting Sticky Webber such as Araquanid just seems like the more practical pick of the two far more often than not.
 
While i was writing a post on the VR thread, I found a pretty neat Tyranitar EV spread that I wanted to share. It's nothing too major, but it makes it a more consistent specs blace check. You go from

252 SpA Choice Specs Blacephalon Hidden Power Ground vs. 80 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 146-174 (40.4 - 48.1%) -- 65.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Blacephalon Hidden Power Ground vs. 20 HP / 68 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 136-162 (39.3 - 46.8%) -- 32.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Another special thing about this spread:

252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Moonblast vs. 80 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 312-368 (86.4 - 101.9%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Moonblast vs. 20 HP / 68 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 290-344 (83.8 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Here's the set below if you want to try it out. You still outspeed max speed mega mawile, but you're slower than standard mega venu and 176 spe magnezone.

248.gif

Tyranitar @ Choice Band
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 20 HP / 252 Atk / 68 SpD / 168 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Stone Edge
- Pursuit
- Crunch
- Earthquake

Alternatively, you can sacrifice a tiny bit of EVs from atk to maintain 201 spe and outspeed standard mega venu and have an odd hp stat. You still deal the exact same damage to phys def skarm and 252/48/208+ferro, so the extra 8 atk evs aren't too important in missing notable 2hkos.

EVs: 24 HP / 244 Atk / 68 SpD / 172 Spe

252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 156-184 (46.8 - 55.2%) -- 70.7% chance to 2HKO
244+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 156-184 (46.8 - 55.2%) -- 70.7% chance to 2HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Crunch vs. 252 HP / 48 Def Ferrothorn: 168-198 (47.7 - 56.2%) -- 25.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
244+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Crunch vs. 252 HP / 48 Def Ferrothorn: 168-198 (47.7 - 56.2%) -- 25.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
 
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Yung Dramps

awesome gaming
Recently in the VR, there's been some discussion around dropping Charizard Y since it's mostly "a worse Blacephalon". And y'know what? I used to be one of those people. But then I thought to myself. Instead of keeping the two seperate... Why not unite them as one?


cool not overate (Charizard-Mega-Y) (M) @ Charizardite Y
Ability: Drought
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Flamethrower / Fire Blast
- Focus Blast
- Solar Beam
- Roost

Blacephallus (Blacephalon) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fire Blast
- Shadow Ball
- Trick
- Hidden Power [Ground]


Charizard Y helps out Blacephalon with its crippling ttar weakness, as well as getting rid of troublesome Rain. In return, Blacephalon mangles Toxapex, as well as crippling Chansey and Mantine by tricking Choice Specs onto them. The main reason for using this core is for Sun-boosted Fire Blasts from Blacephalon, which are, uh... Well, let the calcs speak for themselves.

252 SpA Choice Specs Blacephalon Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable in Sun: 490-577 (124.3 - 146.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Blacephalon Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem-Black in Sun: 493-582 (108.5 - 128.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Blacephalon Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 156+ SpD Thick Fat Venusaur-Mega in Sun: 312-368 (85.9 - 101.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
+1 252 SpA Choice Specs Blacephalon Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex in Sun: 189-223 (62.1 - 73.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 SpA Choice Specs Blacephalon Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Eviolite Chansey in Sun: 429-505 (61 - 71.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
 
Recently in the VR, there's been some discussion around dropping Charizard Y since it's mostly "a worse Blacephalon". And y'know what? I used to be one of those people. But then I thought to myself. Instead of keeping the two seperate... Why not unite them as one?


cool not overate (Charizard-Mega-Y) (M) @ Charizardite Y
Ability: Drought
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Flamethrower / Fire Blast
- Focus Blast
- Solar Beam
- Roost

Blacephallus (Blacephalon) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fire Blast
- Shadow Ball
- Trick
- Hidden Power [Ground]


Charizard Y helps out Blacephalon with its crippling ttar weakness, as well as getting rid of troublesome Rain. In return, Blacephalon mangles Toxapex, as well as crippling Chansey and Mantine by tricking Choice Specs onto them. The main reason for using this core is for Sun-boosted Fire Blasts from Blacephalon, which are, uh... Well, let the calcs speak for themselves.

252 SpA Choice Specs Blacephalon Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable in Sun: 490-577 (124.3 - 146.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Blacephalon Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem-Black in Sun: 493-582 (108.5 - 128.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Blacephalon Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 156+ SpD Thick Fat Venusaur-Mega in Sun: 312-368 (85.9 - 101.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
+1 252 SpA Choice Specs Blacephalon Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex in Sun: 189-223 (62.1 - 73.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 SpA Choice Specs Blacephalon Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Eviolite Chansey in Sun: 429-505 (61 - 71.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
This seems cool, but could we have some replays with this core? Would love the idea of Zard Y being worth using, but I am a little skeptical of this core as Zard Y isn’t a great rain counter measure considering it’s walled by Pelliper. Blacephalon and Zard Y don’t really do much for each other either, as both are moderately fast fire types that pack little defensive utility and offensive synergy. Sure, Blacephalons Fire blast are powered up, but this doesn’t really achieve any notable kos. The calcs you posted all can be 2hkoed by Blacephalon anyway, by either straight up 2hkoing or in conjunctuon with trick or entry hazards, as well as Shadow balls spd drop.
So, I feel that this core does have potential, I just can’t fathom it l without seeing replays because of he afromented flaws with this core.
 
I opened a thread about the removal of Landorus-T from the OU meta. It has since been closed and I believe even deleted since I can't even find the thread anymore. Classy mods.

Landrous-T is simply too versatile, too many sets and too meta-defining to be placed in OU. You need to either run Landourus or have one of a few counters to deal with him. Currently, 35% of teams run him, but that isn't a helpful statistic. Most of those games are probably low MMR games with non-registered randos. What we need to see are stats of people above 1.8k MMR to see the real impact. My thread had about 15 people thumbing up OP, suggesting others want this ban to be implemented.
 
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I opened a thread about the removal of Landorus-T from the OU meta. It has since been closed and I believe even deleted since I can't even find the thread anymore. Classy mods.

Landrous-T is simply too versatile, too many sets and too meta-defining to be placed in OU. You need to either run Landourus or have one of a few counters to deal with him. Currently, 35% of teams run him, but that isn't a helpful statistic. Most of those games are probably low MMR games with non-registered randos. What we need to see are stats of people above 1.8k MMR to see the real impact. My thread had about 15 people thumbing up OP, suggesting others want this ban to be implemented.

If some Mod has the audacity again to delete my post again, and simply give me an arrogant one-liner, then I will submit a formal complaint and place it on the desk of your immediate superior.
Except Landorus-T is not hard to check, while yes, offensive landorus-t can rly only be checked offensively as it has ways around a major part of the defensive metagame, but Defensive Landorus-T and Scarf Landorus-T are way better right now. Btw without landorus-t the whole tier would legit crumble apart lol, it checks so much and really without it so much else would be broken, I'd also like to say that it is really easy to see what kind of lando it will be if u take a simple look at a team and take ~15 seconds to think about what benefits its team most between its sets, really isnt that hard.
 
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Gary

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I opened a thread about the removal of Landorus-T from the OU meta. It has since been closed and I believe even deleted since I can't even find the thread anymore. Classy mods.

Landrous-T is simply too versatile, too many sets and too meta-defining to be placed in OU. You need to either run Landourus or have one of a few counters to deal with him. Currently, 35% of teams run him, but that isn't a helpful statistic. Most of those games are probably low MMR games with non-registered randos. What we need to see are stats of people above 1.8k MMR to see the real impact. My thread had about 15 people thumbing up OP, suggesting others want this ban to be implemented.
No need to spew salt all over the place because you chose not to read the forum rules.

Usually suspect discussion like that is done in Policy Review subforum. From there you can try to plead your case to people intelligently. There are rules all over the place stating how threads like this are not meant for that kind of talk, so instead of pulling the nazi mod card, why don't you actually take the extra time to read the rules of the thread/forum or ask a Moderator for advice on where you can post your claim for a Lando-T suspect.
 
No need to spew salt all over the place because you chose not to read the forum rules.

Usually suspect discussion like that is done in Policy Review subforum. From there you can try to plead your case to people intelligently. There are rules all over the place stating how threads like this are not meant for that kind of talk, so instead of pulling the nazi mod card, why don't you actually take the extra time to read the rules of the thread/forum or ask a Moderator for advice on where you can post your claim for a Lando-T suspect.
This message could have been sent via PM. Instead of game discussion, you're creating drama. Anyway, if you must know, I had a mod direct to this thread. So please, get off your high horse.
 

Gary

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This message could have been sent via PM. Instead of game discussion, you're creating drama. Anyway, if you must know, I had a mod direct to this thread. So please, get off your high horse.
I mean I literally told you where to go to discuss Lando-T suspect so like I don't know what else you need? Most of your post was just bashing mods doing their job anyway so like lol @ me creating the drama.

I originally ran this thread when I was a mod and who ever directed you to this thread is wrong. It clearly states in the OP that suspect talk is not supposed to happen here. Go to Policy Review.
 

Colonel M

I COULD BE BORED!
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I'll let the remaining posts stand for now, but I would like to take a moment to educate everyone to please be civil in your responses and not respond like a bunch of people on Jackass. Some of the users have responded on why we do not believe in suspecting Landorus-T, and I will also remind everyone of the current rule in place:
  • No suspect talk. It's fine to mention how you personally think something is unhealthy or too much for the tier, but do not turn this into a potential suspect discussion thread. No "plz ban this Pokemon" posts.
and ultimately

  • To go off the last point, please no "what would the metagame be w/o or with x Pokemon in it", because this is not relevant to the CURRENT META. Current meta meaning, not past or future related. C U R R E N T.
Failure to follow this will result in infractions.
 

Yung Dramps

awesome gaming
Ok, this is getting really stupid, let's move on to, y'know, actual metagame discussion.


Tapu Koko @ Electrium Z / Fairium Z
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Calm Mind
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Ice] / Dazzling Gleam

Sub + CM Koko. Hey, it works for Blacephalon, why not the Pokemon with super strong Electric STABs and better Speed + Bulk + a Pursuit resistance? Electrium is for power, while Fairium blows away Landorus, Tyranitar, Mega Swampert and Zygarde.

+1 252 SpA Tapu Koko Gigavolt Havoc (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn in Electric Terrain: 197-232 (55.9 - 65.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 SpA Tapu Koko Gigavolt Havoc (175 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Eviolite Chansey in Electric Terrain: 330-388 (46.9 - 55.1%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO
+1 252 SpA Tapu Koko Gigavolt Havoc (175 BP) vs. 248 HP / 220+ SpD Heatran in Electric Terrain: 367-433 (95.3 - 112.4%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
+1 252 SpA Tapu Koko Twinkle Tackle (160 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Swampert-Mega: 291-343 (85.3 - 100.5%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
+1 252 SpA Tapu Koko Twinkle Tackle (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Tyranitar in Sand: 282-332 (69.8 - 82.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Nobody runs this trash set anymore, this is just for demonstration)
 
I have been seeing a rise in lele on ladder and on a lot of usum ou teams Rn. It's a great mon but not sure how it can rise when av mage and av bulu are rising rn
 
I'm not advocating for a Lando suspect/ban, but some of the logic used in the anti-ban arguments are kinda dumb.
First of all, saying the meta would fall apart is pure speculation and theorymonning.

Second, and more importantly, I'm seeing a lot of shit like "lando checks other mons and makes them not broken" which seems to be njnp's main point against a lando ban in his videos.
Uhh, since when was broken left in the tier to check other broken? If more Pokemon become broken as a result, ban them as well until we reach a healthy meta, right?
Theorymonning is dumb and doesn't reflect what would happen, but apparently that's not the case for Lando-t? Everyone who's anti ban seems to know exactly what would happen despite never experiencing such a meta.

I agree, lando is not broken, and despite being on every team it's pretty easy to wear down and take advantage of so it never seems to be a problem for me.
But I can see why a lot of people don't like lando and I can see how it could be unhealthy, I'm not necessarily opposed to a lando-free meta.


I feel like I've been rambling but basically my point is that, like, there are many valid points against a lando suspect (like despite its prevalence it's not overcentralizing, even something like the subsequent wave of bans would take a lot of time and work when the current meta is already fine), so why u gotta make up contradictory shit that makes no sense to force ur agenda? It just makes u look dumb and the opposing side take u less seriously.

(a separate rotating suspect ladder would fix everyones problems lol but I won't go into that)
 
I would fully support a rotating suspect ladder, not because I think lando and pex are busted but because this tier has becoming over balanced and somewhat stale. Without some new pokemon in or out of the tier, the meta will be the same for the next 1 or 2 years till the next game. Somehow I find myself feeling glad that stall is making a return since at least something is changing. All I see on the ladder currently is kartana bulu magnezone, koko hawlucha, and different fat balances with mons like pex. While these are all playstyles that I don't have a problem with, the problem is that they are all you see and all the other playstyles and cores you see make up the last 10%. A lot of teams are near perfect and most teams are the same teams rebuilt with only 1 or 2 mons changed since there isn't much incentive to build different teams other than too flex on the ladder. I don't think anything in ou needs to go or anything in ubers can stay ou, but a rotating suspect ladder separate from the ou ladder could fix that problem but I don't make that happen. This post wasn't meant to be speculating about a rotating suspect ladder, it was meant to be me complaining about my problems the meta. I don't have a problem with the meta but everything is too similar and I don't see any big changes coming anytime soon and the same cores and playstyles will be popular forever.
 
I'm somewhat new to this, playing competitive since XY, but I noticed a sort of paradox with how we design the meta.

Something comes along (such as a new gen) to cause a massive shake up in the meta. This obviously creates a very volatile/unstable meta, which is something we want to avoid. So we make various decisions (usually bans of broken stuff) in order to stabalize the meta. But when we get to said stable meta, people (not pointing fingers at anyone in particular here) complain its stale...Like, am I missing something here...?

A diverse and creative meta is by definition unstable because it has alot of variability. This is usually seen as a meta where battles are very match up based. You try to make a team that is able to beat MOST threats and try to outplay the more problematic threats, but you just cant cover everything. There is to mutch variability. On the other hand, a stable meta will, by definition, remove this variability. It therefore removes some of the creativity as well. This is inevitable cuz there are less threats to account for so there is less of a need for as many tools (mons/moves/items/sets/etc.) to be used. If only a small groupe of mons are exceptionally good, then it goes without saying that most teams will be built with said mons, especially if each mon has only 1-2 great sets. And yet when we attain this stability it's seen as a bad thing for the meta but isin't stabalizing the meta the whole point?

Of course, I understand that these are extremes and what we truly strive fore is some sort of middle ground. A meta that has enough variability to be creative, but enough stability so you can actually account for said variability. But this just seems so hard to accomplish...It's a great idea on paper, but I don't know if it will actually work in practice. There are so many mons/moves/abilities/items/whatever now that it gets harder and harder.

I'm not sure where I'm going with this so I'll stop before I start rambling...I'm not advocating for anything to be banned or unbanned or for the creation of a new ladder of for anything really...I just wanted to voice an issue that has been bothering me for a while now. Like I said, I'm relatively new to competitive mons so if someone has any thoughtful insight to provide, feel free to do so. Maybe I really am missing something lol.

Also, sorry if this post has no place here. It has to do with the current state of the meta but I'm not really mentioning any gameplay trends per se so I don't really know if it fits here. Feel free to redirect me to a more apropriate forum and/or delete this post if need be. Heck, I don't really post much anyways so you can even infract me for all I care.
 
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Sub + CM Koko. Hey, it works for Blacephalon
honestly on the topic of tapu koko and blace, in my experience the two actually do complement each other quite nicely. the one difference was running hp ice on blace. specs blace really appreciates the offensive pressure that koko provides on bulky waters like pex as well as its ability to setup on mega sab and the like, and koko loves blace's ability to pressure its checks such as non-scarf lando, zygarde, mega venu, and tang (although tang is dropping so less relevant ig). while it does require a bit of prediction and does require a hard stop to gren and scarf lando, the core does function effectively particularly against bulkier teams.



Tapu Koko @ Electrium Z
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Calm Mind
- Thunderbolt
- Dazzling Gleam

yeah basically the set that Yung Dramps suggested, but forgoing hp ice/fairium in favor of dazzling gleam, as with some prediction blace deals with everything that would otherwise wall this set.



Blacephalon @ Choice Specs
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fire Blast
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Shadow Ball
- Knock Off

you could always replace fire blast with mind blown, but it takes away blace's already low longevity and sort of defeats its purpose as a check to certain pokemon, as a correctly predicted switchin could result in blacephalon losing 50% hp for nothing. specs is the key for koko to function effectively, as without it, koko would have a much harder time dealing with certain bulky grass types. the immediate power that specs affords helps blace threaten the opposing team, and the pressure on the opp of not giving blace a special attack boost eases prediction.

however, one thing to note about this "core" are its inherent flaws and weaknesses to certain pokemon. these include:
scarf lando - without a sub up on koko, or without a proper check, scarf lando demolishes both these pokemon
ttar - as usum has seen a rise in the usage of ttar in general, it's noteworthy to put this here simply because even +1 koko's dazzling gleam doesn't have a guaranteed chance to ohko
chansey - chansey is stupid >:c basically the reason i put knock off on blace
hippowdon - yes i'm well aware that nobody runs fully spdef hippo but it still checks nonetheless. here's calcs as a point of reference, with the mixed defensive set included.
+1 252 SpA Tapu Koko Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hippowdon: 139-165 (33 - 39.2%) -- 99.9% chance to 3HKO
+1 252 SpA Tapu Koko Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 176 SpD Hippowdon: 166-196 (39.5 - 46.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Blacephalon Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Hippowdon: 292-345 (69.5 - 82.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Blacephalon Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 176 SpD Hippowdon: 316-373 (75.2 - 88.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
scarfchomp - you could honestly group a bunch of scarfers here, as this core struggles with scarf users in general
ash-gren- after transformation, ash gren demolishes both of these mons.

anyway those are just some ramblings about that subcm set lol, was bored and wanted to try it out.
 

A

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Gunk Ash Gren's been kind of passed off as a joke since the lack of spikes is a major downside, but I think it works decent in tandem with offensive Zygarde variants, especially Dragonium Z.



Greninja @ Choice Specs
Ability: Battle Bond
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Gunk Shot
- Dark Pulse
- Hydro Pump
- Water Shuriken



Zygarde @ Dragonium Z
Ability: Aura Break
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Outrage
- Thousand Arrows
- Dragon Dance
- Extreme Speed



4 Atk Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 248 HP / 4 Def Tapu Bulu: 292-348 (85.1 - 101.4%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock


Especially since most teams tend to use AV Bulu as their Ash answer, if this actually goes through Zygarde is in an extremely good position to swing the momentum onto your favor. Just play normally and use standard moves like Dark Pulse or double out in the early game, and give it a go later on. It is rather tricky when facing Bulu Pex, as some of them tend to go out to Toxapex instead to tank Ice Beam or the like.

The core's a tad bit Koko weak, maybe Yache Zyg can work here, or make sure the rest of your team has a way to answer it so you don't fall over to it.
 

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Just use ice beam it 2hkos tapu bulu anyways while actually hitting other relevant targets and not risking misses vs Zygarde and Garchomp.


Weavile @ Icium Z
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Icicle Crash
- Knock Off
- Ice Shard

Also so this isn't a super short post, just wanted to say that SD Subzero Slammer Weavile with Magnezone support is actually pretty neat because that core literally just rips balance a new one and really only needs a marginally weakened Toxapex for Weavile to win, especially if the team relies on Scarf Landorus-T for speed control. It can also smash through offensive teams since it outspeeds Ash Gren and can still outspeed the majority of mons and pick off most of the mons faster than it after a bit of chip with +2 Ice Shard.
 
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I would fully support a rotating suspect ladder, not because I think lando and pex are busted but because this tier has becoming over balanced and somewhat stale. Without some new pokemon in or out of the tier, the meta will be the same for the next 1 or 2 years till the next game.
This happens every gen and with every meta. Dunno why this seems like a surprise or bothers anyone. It's just the nature of the game.

However, I really like the idea of a rotating ladder, maybe done on some kind of visible "public" schedule. It would give people the chance to actually obtain objective data on possible suspects (even the non-worthy shit like Lando) as well as discuss them and their impact overall without disrupting OU's actual ladder.

Decisions would have to be made on how to go about translating this to the standard OU tier but it would be a good start in comparison to what's going on now, which is pretty much nothing.....

Also to add something somewhat relevant to discussion, people should look into Buzzwole again.

Been enjoying this defensive set a lot lately.


Buzzwole @ Leftovers
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 144 HP / 252 Atk / 112 Def
Impish Nature
- Hammer Arm
- Lunge /Ice Punch/Thunderpunch
- Toxic
- Roost

Beats Kart, Bulu, (most) Lando, Zygarde, Chansey, Ferro, (most T-Tar), M-Lop, Chomp and many more mons. 2nd slot is up to choice and a 3rd attack over toxic can help covering other threats. Although Toxic is generally best for crippling switchins like Zapdos, Mimikyu, Volc.....etc


Evs are so you can get an attack boost while still being mostly defensive. But you can also go full def investment if you really feelin' some kinda way.

but yea....rotating ladder is a good idea!
 
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Cheryl.

Celesteela is Life
This happens every gen and with every meta. Dunno why this seems like a surprise or bothers anyone. It's just the nature of the game.

However, I really like the idea of a rotating ladder, maybe done on some kind of visible "public" schedule. It would give people the chance to actually obtain objective data on possible suspects (even the non-worthy shit like Lando) as well as discuss them and their impact overall without disrupting OU's actual ladder.

Decisions would have to be made on how to go about translating this to the standard OU tier but it would be a good start in comparison to what's going on now, which is pretty much nothing.....

Also to add something somewhat relevant to discussion, people should look into Buzzwole again.

Been enjoying this defensive set a lot lately.


Buzzwole @ Leftovers
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 144 HP / 252 Atk / 112 Def
Impish Nature
- Hammer Arm
- Lunge /Ice Punch/Thunderpunch
- Toxic
- Roost

Beats Kart, Bulu, (most) Lando, Zygarde, Chansey, Ferro, (most T-Tar), M-Lop, Chomp and many more mons. 2nd slot is up to choice and a 3rd attack over toxic can help covering other threats. Although Toxic is generally best for crippling switchins like Zapdos, Mimikyu, Volc.....etc


Evs are so you can get an attack boost while still being mostly defensive. But you can also go full def investment if you really feelin' some kinda way.

but yea....rotating ladder is a good idea!
Does Hammer Arm get any relevant KOs that would justify it's use over Drain Punch? Because if not, I think Buzzwole would definitely appreciate the extra HP recovery over losing it's Speed.
 
i agree drain punch is a more reliable stab and recovery is nice. you also have no loss of speed. i get that this set checks alot but there are more sure-fire answers to the pokemon you listed. buzzwole's typing doesnt do it any good because while it has resistances to ground attacks and other attacks, its poor spd def and weakness to common types like flying psychic fairy limit this sets ability to be more effective than say a traditional zygarde answer like bulu who is easier to fit into a team.
 
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