Metagame USUM Monotype Metagame Discussion

#26
Le me touching on some thoughts on some relevant Dragon Types in the meta rn:

Naganadel: I don't think it's irrational if I said Naganadel is one of the, if not THE best mon to use on Dragon teams right now, and can even go further to say that this mon is definitely a top 5 mon in the tier. We've already talked about the ridiculous damage output it provides, its great offensive typing w/ near perfect type coverage; the fact that this mon matches up incredibly well vs. Fairy overall makes Dragon teams more incredibly frightening, and Dragon dittos are riskier since it could no longer be a battle of Scarf Latios or M-Altaria; instead it can be decided on whose Naga gets to +1 speed first. I'm not necessarily saying that this mon is blatantly broken, but I will say that counterplay to it overall is few and far between, and every team right now needs to consider how to play around it, especially as the meta moves forward.

Kommo-o: This mon isn't all bad actually, but right now Naganadel is overshadowing it. It did get blessed w/ a better movepool overall, making it more viable than it ever could have been in SM. Clangarous Soulblaze isn't a joke either; an Omni-boosting offensive Z-move w/ base 185 power chunks a relatively large portion of the meta, and those that eat it can possibly get hit with other coverage moves in Close Combat, Flash Cannon, Flamethrower, among others. It also lowkey is a nice option to use against Normal teams when coupled w/ Soundproof; having that Fighting STAB plus the fact you won't be as easily revenged by Ditto w/ those stats is quite nice for Dragon to utilize. I feel that this mon will get better as time goes on, but right now we'll wait and see.

M-Altaria: I really want this mon to succeed, but right now it feels very lackluster, at least to me. Part of that can be contributed to the "new toy" syndrome in overusage of Naganadel and exploration of Stakataka and Blacephalon. The other contributor is just how M-Altaria fits into the meta right now. It feels pressured to set up vs. Normal monos, considering both Naganadel and M-Alt can be utilized by Ditto to pick up a kill after a mon is sacked off. M-Alt feels virtually close to dead weight against matchups Dragon traditionally wins (Poison and Grass), and honestly can't break the bulkier mons of the meta (Celesteela, Toxapex, Skarmory, M-Venusaur, Porygon2) on its own without suffering a consequence or relying on a teammate to cripple the opponent first. It still has solid wallbreaking potential, but I don't think it can do too much in this current meta, and honestly I would option to use Mega Latias over Altaria at the moment.

These are my opinions on these mons. I'm open to more discussion on this, so correct me if I'm missing something or over/underestimating something.
 
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#27
Kommo-o: This mon isn't all bad actually, but right now Naganadel is overshadowing it. It did get blessed w/ a better movepool overall, making it more viable than it ever could have been in SM. Clangarous Soulblaze isn't a joke either; an Omni-boosting offensive Z-move w/ base 185 power chunks a relatively large portion of the meta, and those that eat it can possibly get hit with other coverage moves in Close Combat, Flash Cannon, Flamethrower, among others. It also lowkey is a nice option to use against Normal teams when coupled w/ Soundproof; having that Fighting STAB plus the fact you won't be as easily revenged by Ditto w/ those stats is quite nice for Dragon to utilize. I feel that this mon will get better as time goes on, but right now we'll wait and see.

These are my opinions on these mons. I'm open to more discussion on this, so correct me if I'm missing something or over/underestimating something.
I think Kommo-o's usefulness against Normal is particularly notable, and makes it especially a nice partner for Mega Altaria. It isn't at all difficult for Kommo-o to find the right opportunity to use Clangorous Soulblaze, most likely against either a weakened Diggersby or Staraptor after Stealth Rock:

4 SpA Kommo-o Clangorous Soulblaze vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Diggersby: 246-291 (79 - 93.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 SpA Kommo-o Clangorous Soulblaze vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Staraptor: 303-357 (81.6 - 96.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

After a Clangorous Soulblaze, the Normal player either has to sack/get a ton of mons chipped, or go Ditto immediately to remove Kommo-o. This allows Kommo-o to get off the necessary chip damage to put it within Dragonite range, or Stealth Rock range if you're able to keep them up:

+1 252 Atk Kommo-o Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kommo-o: 216-255 (74.2 - 87.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock(it'll have to use Close Combat against you first, lowering its defenses)

Once Ditto is either chipped or removed, Refresh Mega Altaria can practically win from there once it takes the time to set up in front of Chansey or Porygon2. Kommo-o can also provide some additional support in the Steel matchup with CC+Flamethrower, although it's much harder to find the opportunity to use Clangorous Soulblaze(possibly against a weakened Bisharp or something). Unfortunately, Z-move Kommo-o does mean that you aren't able to run Z-move Naganadel, which is the vastly superior option against offense. Kommo-o also does really lackluster in matchups outside of Normal and Steel. Regardless, it still fills a nice role on Dragon and I can definitely see it getting more usage.
 
#28
I am using a mono-Ghost team and it can handle the majority of mono-teams really well. However, I have a huge problem dealing with normal types. What is the best ghost mon to deal with normal types?
 
#29
I am using a mono-Ghost team and it can handle the majority of mono-teams really well. However, I have a huge problem dealing with normal types. What is the best ghost mon to deal with normal types?
There are a few ways ghost can make the normal type matchup a bit easier:
-Protect, Will-O-Wisp, Recover and Knock Off on Mega Sableye can cripple the defensive core and burn Mega Lopunny and Diggersby which threaten ghost teams. Sableye can also try to predict when Mega Lopunny is going to click HJK and then use Protect so it takes the recoil damage.
-Choice Scarf Gengar with Trick and Focus Blast can KO the offensive threats such as Mega Lopunny or Diggersby and can cripple the defensive core with Trick. Destiny Bond is an option on Ghost as a last resort, however it is very gimmicky and mostly bad.
-Focus Sash Golurk can annoy Normal teams with Focus Sash, No Guard and Dynamic Punch.
-Blacephalon can also cripple chansey by using Taunt and then use it as setup bait by using Calm Mind and then nothing really switches in especially well especially if it carries Firium Z.

These are a few ways Ghost teams can make the matchup with Normal teams less painful however Normal will still give Ghost quite a bit of trouble even with these sets.
 
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#31
Can we unban Marshadow just so ghosts can have a way to deal normal types?
No.

Basically, the way it works in Monotype is that we don’t ban or unban a Pokemon just to make a type better or worse. Marshadow would be amazing for Ghost in Normal and other matchups, but it’s an ultimately broken mon (even banned in Monotype Ubers) that can’t ever be unbanned. We aim for a balanced metagame instead of “all types are balanced” because the latter is unrealistic. Pokemon like Mega Medicham would be heavily appreciated on bad types like Fighting, but is in the same boat as Marshadow.
 
#32
No.

Basically, the way it works in Monotype is that we don’t ban or unban a Pokemon just to make a type better or worse. Marshadow would be amazing for Ghost in Normal and other matchups, but it’s an ultimately broken mon (even banned in Monotype Ubers) that can’t ever be unbanned. We aim for a balanced metagame instead of “all types are balanced” because the latter is unrealistic. Pokemon like Mega Medicham would be heavily appreciated on bad types like Fighting, but is in the same boat as Marshadow.
Wait what? Why is Marshadow banned in Monotype Ubers? XD?
 
#34
Naganadel should be suspected in USUM Monotype ASAP!

Naganadel
Stats: 73 / 73 / 73 / 127 / 73 / 121
Ability: Beast Boost


Naganadel @ Dragonium Z
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Nasty Plot
- Sludge Wave
- Fire Blast

Let me start of by saying this thing is entirely too good to say in Monotype. Not only does it have an amazing Offensive STAB combination of Dragon and Poison which is only resisted by Steel but it gets Fire Blast to round out and give it perfect coverage. Naganadel sits at an amazing Speed tier of 121 base speed. Naganadel gets a Speed Boost each time it picks up a kill. This outspeeds notable pokemon such as Dugtrio, Alakazam and tons of other base 110 pokemon such as Latios, Mega Diancie and Mega Gallade. This means once Naganadel gets 1 speed boost up it will be able to most likely outspeed the entirety of the opponents team with the exception being Scarf Greninja and Ditto. This makes checking it offensively very difficult to do. With Access to Nasty Plot now Naganadel can break through even defensive pokemon such as SpD Toxapex, Vincune, Porygon2, Heatran, Mantine and Mega Venusaur while what bulky pokemon do live is very small such as Chansey and Max SpD Tyranitar in the Sand.
Bulky Pokemon OHKO'ed by +2 Devastating Drake
+2 252 SpA Naganadel Devastating Drake (195 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 351-414 (115.4 - 136.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Naganadel Devastating Drake (195 BP) vs. 252 HP / 40 SpD Suicune: 535-630 (132.4 - 155.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Naganadel Devastating Drake (195 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 435-513 (116.3 - 137.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Naganadel Devastating Drake (195 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Heatran: 297-351 (91.9 - 108.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Naganadel Devastating Drake (195 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mantine: 466-550 (124.5 - 147%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Naganadel Devastating Drake (195 BP) vs. 252 HP / 28 SpD Venusaur-Mega: 522-615 (143.4 - 168.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Naganadel Devastating Drake (195 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Stakataka: 309-363 (94.7 - 111.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Dragalge Devastating Drake (195 BP) vs. 248 HP / 248+ SpD Assault Vest Muk-Alola: 303-357 (73.3 - 86.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock


Lives +2 Devastating Drake
+2 252 SpA Naganadel Devastating Drake (195 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 397-468 (56.4 - 66.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Naganadel Devastating Drake (195 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 301-355 (74.6 - 88%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Naganadel is only checked at +1 Speed by the fastest Scarfers and only by the bulkiest walls at +2 Special Attack making it very hard to check both offensively and defensively especially for a tier restricted to teambuilding with 1 type. Naganadel is an extremely overwhelming force in USUM Monotype and should be suspected ASAP!​
 
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#37
Well. now that Naganadel's out of the picture, I'd like to see how Kommo-o and Kommonium Z fare on Dragon, since that was probably the best new tool that Dragon received other than Naga. Nothing really changes on Poison though, except that Poison will have the same hard time combating Dragon. Either way, I feel that this ban was a welcomed change for a healthier meta in USM.
 
#38
I would like to see a suspect on the terrain extender. At the time of its ban the biggest reason for banning it was tapu lele. Since lele itself has been banned it would make sense to reevaluate it. If it was allowed back in we might see an uptick in electric's viability which would make for a more diverse and healthier meta. It would take a suspect to be sure that electric doesn't end up destroying the meta or if psychic uses the move psychic terrain and makes the meta unhealthy, but we should at least reevaluate it because the circumstances are different now then when it was banned.

Edit: Eien is correct the biggest reason it was banned was on electric however I could only find like 3 or 4 posts mentioning it. I would like to point out that the damp rock comparison is completely unfair as there are multiple power house swift swimmers. The smooth rock comparison makes more sense as they only have 1 speed boosted mon, but excadrill with sand for that long is more threatening than alolachu. I understand the arguments against it and that it benefits every electric type not just alolachu.
 
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Eien

I'll face myself
is a member of the Site Staffis a Community Leaderis a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
Monotype Leader
#39
I would like to see a suspect on the terrain extender. At the time of its ban the biggest reason for banning it was tapu lele. Since lele itself has been banned it would make sense to reevaluate it. If it was allowed back in we might see an uptick in electric's viability which would make for a more diverse and healthier meta. It would take a suspect to be sure that electric doesn't end up destroying the meta or if psychic uses the move psychic terrain and makes the meta unhealthy, but we should at least reevaluate it because the circumstances are different now then when it was banned.
I don't know where you got this idea, but it's backwards. Electric was actually the primary reason it was banned. Similar to why we banned Damp Rock and Smooth Rock, we chose to ban Terrain Extender. Eight turns of Alolan Raichu and generally boosting other Electric-types was considered broken and oppressive. It just so happens Tapu Lele was also considered too good with Terrain Extender, but the primary problem was Electric Surge, not Psychic Surge. You can read the discussions from early SM here: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sm-monotype-metagame-discussion.3587204/

Not a definitive ruling here, but we're probably not suspecting Terrain Extender for the foreseeable future. Certainly not before other currently banned elements if we choose to review past decisions.
 
#40
Just to jumpstart the discussion since we're on it; Is there anything that you guys would like to have back in Monotype, or would be interested in seeing again? Frankly, I for one would be interested to see the return of Zygarde-10%, granted that I feel that there is sufficient enough counterplay and options for it to not be completely overbearing.
 

Yung Dramps

I COULD BE BANNED!
#42
I also am wondering wether or not we might see a suspect or two for mons like zygarde 10% and darkrai and possibly dawn wings necrozma.
I am totally open to a Zydoggo suspect. Darkrai and Dawn Wings Necrozma? Not so sure. Really, all that has changed for Darkrai was that the thing that made it broken is now slightly less accurate. If you get off Hypnosis, that juicy Nasty Plot Darkinium sweep is not far off. And as for Dawn Wings Necrozma... No.
 
#43
Just to jumpstart the discussion since we're on it; Is there anything that you guys would like to have back in Monotype, or would be interested in seeing again? Frankly, I for one would be interested to see the return of Zygarde-10%, granted that I feel that there is sufficient enough counterplay and options for it to not be completely overbearing.
I'd like to see both Zygarde forms, Zydog at the very least, brought back to Monotype. I'd like to see how it'd fair against the meta now since it's settled finally. MAYBE regular Blaziken, since Baton Pass is banned. Though, that might be a stretch because the LO set would still be pretty lethal. Finally, I'm not sure if this was allowed in the past or not, possibly Kangaskhanite. Parental Bond was nerfed by reducing the damage of the second hit from 1/2 to 1/4. Although, it might still be deemed as unhealthy for the meta.

I also am wondering wether or not we might see a suspect or two for mons like zygarde 10% and darkrai and possibly dawn wings necrozma.
Agreed on Zydog coming back but Darkrai and DW Necrozma aren't good nominees for to be introduced. Just as Yung Dramps said about Darkrai, it'd pull off some pretty mean sweeps. Then, DW Necrozma's stat line and ability... yeah, no lol.
 
#44
Tbh; Zydog has the best chance is coming back. I highly doubt that Darkrai is coming back; still having the stupid Z-hypnosis to NP setup which obliterates teams. DW Necrozma is more likely to be considered, but with a massive movepool on its side granting it insane role compression, setup power, and etc might seem too much. Blaziken while I do agree could come back, would have to be specifically Blaze; js, Speed Boost Adamant Blaziken w/ SD and Z-High Jump Kick/Flare Blitz sounds absolutely threatening to many defensive backbones. Now for Zygarde-50%, I don't think it will come back at all for the reason that added bulk plus Thousand Waves makes it an incredible late game trapper with 2 very threatening forms of Setup, and could act as a replacement for Dugtrio in a heartbeat. You could argue that Zydog does the same; but an incredible base speed tier for its type that can check threats like Kyurem-Black would most likely be used as most times as DD + 3 Attacks Dragonium. Alternatively you could run extra SpA investment to hit Tapu Bulu with a better Sludge Wave than Duggy.
 
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#45
Darkrai still holds 135/125 offenses with Nasty Plot, Z-Hypnosis, and great coverage options, Dark Void wasn't the only strong thing about it. Dawn Wings Necrozma is about as dumb a suggestion as something like Reshiram, even if its viability in regular Ubers isn't the best, there's no way you bring that down here. It reminds me of that silly Arceus-Bug for OU meme.

Blaziken I couldn't see being unbanned, it would require the complex ban of Speed Boost, and those don't usually hold over well. Zygarde-50% is also a very strong 'Mon I wouldn't feel would be healthy, perhaps you could suspect Zygarde-10%, and, if and only if that suspect does happen to allow the dog back, you could maybe look at its effect on the metagame a few months down the road to further reflect on Zygarde-50%, just not now.
 
#46
I also am wondering wether or not we might see a suspect or two for mons like zygarde 10% and darkrai and possibly dawn wings necrozma.
I am totally open to a Zydoggo suspect. Darkrai and Dawn Wings Necrozma? Not so sure. Really, all that has changed for Darkrai was that the thing that made it broken is now slightly less accurate. If you get off Hypnosis, that juicy Nasty Plot Darkinium sweep is not far off. And as for Dawn Wings Necrozma... No.
I'd like to see both Zygarde forms, Zydog at the very least, brought back to Monotype. I'd like to see how it'd fair against the meta now since it's settled finally. MAYBE regular Blaziken, since Baton Pass is banned. Though, that might be a stretch because the LO set would still be pretty lethal. Finally, I'm not sure if this was allowed in the past or not, possibly Kangaskhanite. Parental Bond was nerfed by reducing the damage of the second hit from 1/2 to 1/4. Although, it might still be deemed as unhealthy for the meta.



Agreed on Zydog coming back but Darkrai and DW Necrozma aren't good nominees for to be introduced. Just as Yung Dramps said about Darkrai, it'd pull off some pretty mean sweeps. Then, DW Necrozma's stat line and ability... yeah, no lol.
Just going to respond to all three of these posts at once. Appreciate that you guys all have interest in the current meta, but judging by the Pokemon you presented as possible suspects for unbanning, you most likely don't understand why these Pokemon were banned in the first place nor their affect on the Monotype metagame. Zygarde-10% was banned because it applies so much pressure on opposing teams. 10% has no drawbacks from simply spamming Thousand Arrows against just about any type that doesn't inherently resist Ground-type attacks. It also exacerbates bad matchups that teams already have against Dragon and Ground. What exactly are Electric, Fire, Poison, and Steel supposed to do against Zygarde-10% spamming Thousand Arrows? Choice Band can come in throughout the match with minimal team support and almost always guarantee a KO. Choice Scarf variants can run down any Offense outside of those containing mons that could potentially outpace like with Greninja on Dark or Water. Sand Offense alone would easily come to dominate the meta and invalidate a multitude of types and playstyles.

Zygarde-50% has an incredibly similar effect to 10% after a Dragon Dance boost. Pair that with carrying a Z stone and you've got pretty much the best setup sweeper in the meta with reliable neutral coverage on nearly every viable Pokemon in Monotype. Zygarde-50% is most comparable to Mega Altaria in this position, where it can use Dragon Dance a couple times and run through offensive teams, however Zygarde-50% is inherently much better because of the strength of Thousand Arrows. You may then call into question whether or not both 50% and 10% would be balanced without Thousand Arrows and if so, why isn't the move banned? That would constitute a complex ban on the move Thousand Arrows which Smogon would generally reserve for completely uncompetitive moves like Minimize or Swagger.

Regarding Darkrai, the entire reason it was banned was because of its ability to beat any type and any playstyle just by using Z-Hypnosis followed by a Nasty Plot sweep. This set simply has no counterplay on any playstyle if Z-Hypnosis hits as Darkrai outpaces every relevant Choice Scarf user that's used in Monotype. You'd then need to rely on priority and specialized sets just to tank hits from Darkrai, much like Naganadel's effect on the meta but amplified. Of course other variants could be just as effective in completely dismantling opposing teams like Choice Specs with perfect neutral coverage, but there's no reason to look past the aforementioned set once it's agreed upon that it is broken.

Dawn Wings Necrozma is not being unbanned because it would completely dominate the meta with its insane stats. Whether or not it underperforms in an Ubers meta doesn't mean that it could even be remotely balanced in Monotype.

Blaziken was banned originally because of its Life Orb set having the capability to beat nearly every type and playstyle with physical, special, or mixed coverage. Baton Pass was never the problem as Blaziken was banned well before Baton Pass was looked into. Offense can't compete with the powerful mixed coverage Blaziken carries after a Speed Boost if hazards are supporting it. Swords Dance + Z stone variants could have a similar effect as well, but there's no reason to look beyond Life Orb.

Kangaskhanite won't be unbanned because it's too powerful. Even with the Parental Bond nerf there's little that most defensive cores and offensive builds can do to handle its powerful presence.

If you want to discuss something possibly being looked at again for a possible unban, ask yourself a set of questions about banned subject specifically. Why was this subject banned originally? Has anything changed in the meta to the point that this banned subject can be balanced? What specifically can counteract this banned subject? As far as all of the Pokemon mentioned in the above quotes go, nothing has changed that would make these subjects balanced. There may be a couple more Pokemon within the meta that can manage these threats somewhat, since there has been incredible development since then, but nothing to the point to where each type has reasonable answers to these banned subjects.
 
#47
Just going to respond to all three of these posts at once. Appreciate that you guys all have interest in the current meta, but judging by the Pokemon you presented as possible suspects for unbanning, you most likely don't understand why these Pokemon were banned in the first place nor their affect on the Monotype metagame. Zygarde-10% was banned because it applies so much pressure on opposing teams. 10% has no drawbacks from simply spamming Thousand Arrows against just about any type that doesn't inherently resist Ground-type attacks. It also exacerbates bad matchups that teams already have against Dragon and Ground. What exactly are Electric, Fire, Poison, and Steel supposed to do against Zygarde-10% spamming Thousand Arrows? Choice Band can come in throughout the match with minimal team support and almost always guarantee a KO. Choice Scarf variants can run down any Offense outside of those containing mons that could potentially outpace like with Greninja on Dark or Water. Sand Offense alone would easily come to dominate the meta and invalidate a multitude of types and playstyles.

Zygarde-50% has an incredibly similar effect to 10% after a Dragon Dance boost. Pair that with carrying a Z stone and you've got pretty much the best setup sweeper in the meta with reliable neutral coverage on nearly every viable Pokemon in Monotype. Zygarde-50% is most comparable to Mega Altaria in this position, where it can use Dragon Dance a couple times and run through offensive teams, however Zygarde-50% is inherently much better because of the strength of Thousand Arrows. You may then call into question whether or not both 50% and 10% would be balanced without Thousand Arrows and if so, why isn't the move banned? That would constitute a complex ban on the move Thousand Arrows which Smogon would generally reserve for completely uncompetitive moves like Minimize or Swagger.

Regarding Darkrai, the entire reason it was banned was because of its ability to beat any type and any playstyle just by using Z-Hypnosis followed by a Nasty Plot sweep. This set simply has no counterplay on any playstyle if Z-Hypnosis hits as Darkrai outpaces every relevant Choice Scarf user that's used in Monotype. You'd then need to rely on priority and specialized sets just to tank hits from Darkrai, much like Naganadel's effect on the meta but amplified. Of course other variants could be just as effective in completely dismantling opposing teams like Choice Specs with perfect neutral coverage, but there's no reason to look past the aforementioned set once it's agreed upon that it is broken.

Dawn Wings Necrozma is not being unbanned because it would completely dominate the meta with its insane stats. Whether or not it underperforms in an Ubers meta doesn't mean that it could even be remotely balanced in Monotype.

Blaziken was banned originally because of its Life Orb set having the capability to beat nearly every type and playstyle with physical, special, or mixed coverage. Baton Pass was never the problem as Blaziken was banned well before Baton Pass was looked into. Offense can't compete with the powerful mixed coverage Blaziken carries after a Speed Boost if hazards are supporting it. Swords Dance + Z stone variants could have a similar effect as well, but there's no reason to look beyond Life Orb.

Kangaskhanite won't be unbanned because it's too powerful. Even with the Parental Bond nerf there's little that most defensive cores and offensive builds can do to handle its powerful presence.

If you want to discuss something possibly being looked at again for a possible unban, ask yourself a set of questions about banned subject specifically. Why was this subject banned originally? Has anything changed in the meta to the point that this banned subject can be balanced? What specifically can counteract this banned subject? As far as all of the Pokemon mentioned in the above quotes go, nothing has changed that would make these subjects balanced. There may be a couple more Pokemon within the meta that can manage these threats somewhat, since there has been incredible development since then, but nothing to the point to where each type has reasonable answers to these banned subjects.
I completely agree with most of this reasoning. While I won't talk much about the others, I will bring attention to Zygarde-10%, where I think that there are aspects of today's meta that make it more manageable than in the past. I'll also be referencing a post Wanka made regarding both Zydog and 50% after the initial Zydog ban, which you can find here: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sm-monotype-metagame-discussion.3587204/page-11#post-7131729

In terms of banning Zydog, there were multiple cases for which it was called to be banned. Thousand Arrows being one primary culprit of both Zygarde forms power, eliminating certain type matchups or worsening those for types that Ground could already beat. It could also be mentioned that both served different functionalities at the time: Zygarde-50% acting as a very bulky Setup Sweeper and Zydog being more of a wallbreaker with a fantastic speed tier for its primary typing. However, it can also be noted that Wanka felt that there were notable flaws that could be easily overlooked by most people. For example, he mentions the absolute poor overall defenses and HP, making it a glass cannon, and therefore must be preserved to the fullest in situations where it is a win condition. It could also be noted that wallbreakers typically have ways of getting in and applying pressure without having to take damage, but in Zygarde's case, neither type has reliable, if any, ways to keep offensive pressure through fast switching like VoltTurn for instance, and would often have to sacrifice its position and allow its teammate to take damage on switch-in or potentially get set up on.

Granted Wanka's post was made more than a year ago, but also keep that in mind as well, its very old and doesn't reflect the current metagame, where we have new mons and ALL usable Mega Stones. The timing of this post was in a way where Mega Altaria and Mega Lopunny weren't available, two possible offensive checks to Zydog if it were re-allowed in the current metagame. It still gets defensively stopped by Tapu Bulu alone bar Iron Tail/Sludge Wave, but then again Bulu was always one of the hardest things for Ground to handle anyway. Choice Scarf Greninja is also a very prominent threat in the meta (a virtual staple on all competitive teams) w/ Ice Beam, outspeeding Zydog at +1 and living an Espeed from +1 as well, making it invaluable. Other offensive checks that have come into play would include the likes of Sash Counter Alakazam, Choice Band Mamoswine, Mega Sharpedo + Speed or simple defensive options like Mandibuzz and Ferrothorn are both mons that can counter Zydog, whether it be Foul Play from its Attack or Gyro Ball to take advantage of its speed. I'm sure slower bulkier mons would have a simpler time dealing with Zydog and exploit its poor defenses, but it could also be said that chip damage from status and hazards without reliable recovery would make it so that Zydogs' offensive pressure is lessened bit by bit to a point where common priority can finish it off.

Point being, there are a greater number of options to select from to exploit Zydog's weaknesses then there were in the past with an incomplete meta. I strongly believe that allowing it to return isn't out of the question right now, and should at the very least, be considered.
 
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Eien

I'll face myself
is a member of the Site Staffis a Community Leaderis a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
Monotype Leader
#48
Briefly, since more than one ban has come up from the following set, I'll just generally say that I personally have zero interest in suspecting anything banned in the first two waves of quickbans. All of them were ridiculous in Monotype. I won't speak for the council as a whole here, but I don't think I can be convinced any of them are even worth the time to suspect.

Regarding Zygarde, Zygarde's problem was never whether it was broken as a result of having too high damage output, being defensively uncheckable, etc. It's an offensive Pokemon that literally has base 100 Attack and its main STAB attack is 90 Base Power. There are tons of Pokemon you can point to and say they counter Zygarde... on types that aren't weak to Ground. The problem was always that it lacked counterplay and was altogether bad for Monotype as a result. There's no skill in essentially clicking Thousand Arrows over and over until you win the game just because your opponent's type is weak to Ground. Its impact would only concentrate the metagame and eliminate viability for types that are weak to it. The tiering philosophy is not about making every type playable, but when a Pokemon is able to single-handedly just remove types that are clearly currently viable, that's a red flag.

Notice, I didn't specify 10% or 50% here. The problem with Zygarde is innate to both formes. The primary justification for banning Zygarde-10% was provably sufficient for banning Zygarde-50%. It's my personal belief that Zygarde, in all of its formes, is a Pokemon that Monotype has been far better without.
 
#49
Regarding Zygarde, Zygarde's problem was never whether it was broken as a result of having too high damage output, being defensively uncheckable, etc. It's an offensive Pokemon that literally has base 100 Attack and its main STAB attack is 90 Base Power. There are tons of Pokemon you can point to and say they counter Zygarde... on types that aren't weak to Ground. The problem was always that it lacked counterplay and was altogether bad for Monotype as a result. There's no skill in essentially clicking Thousand Arrows over and over until you win the game just because your opponent's type is weak to Ground. Its impact would only concentrate the metagame and eliminate viability for types that are weak to it. The tiering philosophy is not about making every type playable, but when a Pokemon is able to single-handedly just remove types that are clearly currently viable, that's a red flag.
Monotype, since scp's reign, has not tried to keep all the types balanced. I hate that, but the council has been very clear of its intention and there isn't a reason to revert except it being potentially more fun. I have no proof.

With that in mind, the council must admit to picking and choosing what types to keep viable and which get dusted. Scizor assassinates ice, rock, and fairy. While also being a defensive wall that, along with celesteela and skarmory, makes steel a GOOD matchup vs fighting (among others, it was even worse with magearna). Zygarde hits fire, rock, electric, flying, and steel. I'd say the latter 3 are what would matter if people think the tier is balanced.

There is no skill in laying a ton of hazards and switching between fat mons till they die.

There is no skill in setting up scizor and bullet punching over and over because your opponent is weak to steel.

There is no skill in setting up autotomize with celesteela, and picking between like 4 different types you just auto win against now (grass, bug, ground, fighting).

I can use this "no skill argument" to back a lot of things. Grass, ground, and fairy are definitely viable which celesteela & scizor choke out, among other types I'm sure people could point out. My question is what gives steel the right to have it easy and basically uncompetitive with 7+ matchups, 3 of which are viable types, but ground can't. I'm not asking for zydog to come back, but this is the discussion thread and I am here to discuss.

EDIT: Someone pointed out to me Kommonium Z destroys steel (like everything else), so my fighting stance is a bit outdated. I think you get the gist though. Just here to make monotype more fun if I can and explore ideas that may make more types fun to use. I picked on steel here but the argument doesn't have to be steel per say. (I hate celesteela though).
 
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#50
Monotype, since scp's reign, has not tried to keep all the types balanced. I hate that, but the council has been very clear of its intention and there isn't a reason to revert except it being potentially more fun. I have no proof.

With that in mind, the council must admit to picking and choosing what types to keep viable and which get dusted. Scizor assassinates ice, rock, and fairy. While also being a defensive wall that, along with celesteela and skarmory, makes steel a GOOD matchup vs fighting (among others, it was even worse with magearna). Zygarde hits fire, rock, electric, flying, and steel. I'd say the latter 3 are what would matter if people think the tier is balanced.

There is no skill in laying a ton of hazards and switching between fat mons till they die.

There is no skill in setting up scizor and bullet punching over and over because your opponent is weak to steel.

There is no skill in setting up autotomize with celesteela, and picking between like 4 different types you just auto win against now (grass, bug, ground, fighting).

I can use this "no skill argument" to back a lot of things. Grass, ground, and fairy are definitely viable which celesteela & scizor choke out, among other types I'm sure people could point out. My question is what gives steel the right to have it easy and basically uncompetitive with 7+ matchups, 3 of which are viable types, but ground can't. I'm not asking for zydog to come back, but this is the discussion thread and I am here to discuss.

EDIT: Someone pointed out to me Kommonium Z destroys steel (like everything else), so my fighting stance is a bit outdated. I think you get the gist though. Just here to make monotype more fun if I can and explore ideas that may make more types fun to use. I picked on steel here but the argument doesn't have to be steel per say. (I hate celesteela though).

I'm sorry, but a lot of this post is just filled with false equivalencies and general misinformation. First, even if by some blessing instance Scizor would get banned, that won't stop Ice and Rock from being awful types, since their inherent flaws and bad metagame matchups don't stop at Scizor. And even then, none of these types simply roll over and autolose brainlessly to Scizor. Starting with Fairy(which is undoubtedly one of the best types in the metagame), I have a hard time figuring out how Scizor is able to just win vs Fairy when the type has mons like Tapu Koko, Babiri Berry Clefable, and Klefki, all of which can either completely remove Mega Scizor, or do a significant job chipping it down for a teammate. Moving on to Rock, Alolan Golem is capable of trapping and removing both defensive and offensive variants(albeit needing Sticky Web support for offensive variants, which Steel isn't gonna be easily removing without risking a 50-50). Now for Ice, offensive Mega Scizor variants actually don't KO Cloyster with a +2 Bullet Punch even after Stealth Rock, and Cloyster will more than often be faster since Mega Scizors more often than not run Adamant. After surviving this Bullet Punch, Cloyster can fire back with an unboosted Hydro Vortex, which still does a significant crapton, placing it within range of Avalugg's Rocky Helmet or even Alolan Sandslash:

+2 252+ Atk Technician Scizor-Mega Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Cloyster: 144-169 (59.7 - 70.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
144 SpA Cloyster Hydro Vortex (185 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Scizor-Mega: 204-240 (72.5 - 85.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO(not even factoring in rocks, which can at times put it within hail damage or Mamoswine Ice Shard range without needing to risk Alolaslash or Avalugg)


There are of course other factors, such as Aurora Veil as well as Wisping with Rotom-F. Rotom-F in particular can actually choose whether it wants to speed creep Adamant or Jolly Mega Scizor without moving a single EV, and each correspondent spread lives a +2 BP after rocks and can fire off a Wisp:

Adamant: +2 252+ Atk Technician Scizor-Mega Bullet Punch vs. 248 HP / 92+ Def Rotom-Frost: 189-223 (62.3 - 73.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Jolly: +2 252 Atk Technician Scizor-Mega Bullet Punch vs. 248 HP / 92 Def Rotom-Frost: 189-223 (62.3 - 73.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Yet again not factoring in Aurora Veil


Onto defensive variants, both Lapras and Walrein can be EVed to outpace these variants so that they can't freely U-turn for needless chip damage. So unless the Steel player wants their Mega Scizor to catch approximately ten million from a Specs HP Fire, they're gonna wanna hard switch into Celesteela more often than not, the one mon on Steel that doesn't particularly fear coming in on Lapras/Walrein. There's also of course Rotom-F, which takes even less from these variants after a Wisp and can at times take an opportunity to Pain Split for even more chip damage.

With all this being said, of course Ice v Steel is still gonna be incredibly hellish for Ice; that should honestly go without saying. But to suggest that Scizor just mindlessly clicks BP vs Ice, Rock, or Fairy is just false, and simultaneously creates a somewhat false equivalency with Zygarde 10% and the drastic impact both Band and DD sets in particular have against types like Electric, Poison and Steel to name a few.

Since you already pointed out how Steel v Fighting is by no means in Steel's favor at all, I won't go any further into that. I will however go into Autotomize Celesteela in general, which is an incredibly mediocre set held back by being outsped by a wide variety of Scarfers in the metagame, and the fact that even offensive Steel teams generally prefer AV. Saying that it autowins vs Grass literally carries 0 weight since Grass already possesses an unfavorable matchup against Steel either way, so there's no real point running an inferior set just to further deal with an advantageous matchup. Also Grass is far from viable in the current metagame despite having a slight handful of decent top-tier matchups like Water(made slightly worse with the rise of Sap Sipper Azu), Ground, and Fairy.

Oh yeah, and Celesteela doesn't just immediately win vs Ground. With Lando-I's Gravity, Dugtrio can actually trap and severely dent it with Earthquake, leaving it too low to even check anything else outside of Hippowdon. If its Sash is still intact it picks up a rather easy 2HKO. So to say Steel has even an easy matchup let a lone a guaranteed one through merit of having Celesteela is just factually incorrect.

So maybe if you saw past how much you hate Celesteela(mentioned at the very end), you'd realize that the metagame has done a rather effective job adapting to Steel's playstyle, and is not by any means pushed to the extent that Zygarde 10% was. Also I don't really see what other types can fit into this "uncompetitive" argument in the current metagame, and no extra example was even brought forward, so I'm not sure what the point of mentioning that was.