Metagame USUM NU Speculation Thread

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#27
quick one:

me and eternally discussed this and defog watervally + mega dino seems like a nice core, as watervally provides a GSI for lix and manages to defog on it pretty easily, mega audino provides wish support (tho you could argue that rest on silvally is now a legit choice in the 4th moveslot, surt parting defog rest/toxix would probably be the ideal set) this can be utilized on bulkier teams but also seems like a valueable core for stall teams

looking forward to the future meta, and a i'll use this thread as some promo: I'll be hosting a usm nu specualtion tour around 6pm sunday gmt +1, be sure to hang out in the room to stay up to date
 
#28
quick one:

me and eternally discussed this and defog watervally + mega dino seems like a nice core, as watervally provides a GSI for lix and manages to defog on it pretty easily, mega audino provides wish support (tho you could argue that rest on silvally is now a legit choice in the 4th moveslot, surt parting defog rest/toxix would probably be the ideal set) this can be utilized on bulkier teams but also seems like a valueable core for stall teams

looking forward to the future meta, and a i'll use this thread as some promo: I'll be hosting a usm nu specualtion tour around 6pm sunday gmt +1, be sure to hang out in the room to stay up to date
Are you going to be able to implement Splintered Stormshards? Because I really think Lycanroc could be a lot better in this meta, as it now has actual coverage.
 
#31
I'm not sure if this is a glitch or not, but if you set your Silvally to regular Normal type and you give it a Plate, it will still appear normal but have the effects of whatever Plate you set it to. Thought I'd share that here because it sounds pretty relevant.
 
#32
I'm not sure if this is a glitch or not, but if you set your Silvally to regular Normal type and you give it a Plate, it will still appear normal but have the effects of whatever Plate you set it to. Thought I'd share that here because it sounds pretty relevant.
Elaborate more please?
 
#34
If you send out the Silvally in game, it will appear as a Normal type to you and your opponent. So, there's no way to truly know the type of the Silvally unless you attack it. I feel like that could cause some problems.
probably a custom game glitch.

Are you going to be able to implement Splintered Stormshards? Because I really think Lycanroc could be a lot better in this meta, as it now has actual coverage.
the tour will be current NU meta with new moves and HAs released, not much more i can do.
 
#37
From what it looks like, RU has a lot more options for hazard control that it'll gladly take. Some of these could be taken from NU; for example Rotom-C (which was decent before cause of its typing) and Sigilyph (which has a niche as a magic guard defogger). With better hazard control, there's less need for Pokemon such as Donphan and Blastoise which are otherwise useless apart from spinning (Tsareena got a decent buff so I can see it staying RU). Furthermore, I can see Galvantula dropping on virtue of better hazard removal and a faster webs setter in Ribombee, both of which hurt Galvantula's niche as a webs setter.

What do you guys think? Can you see these mons dropping and if so, will they be good here?
 
#38
From what it looks like, RU has a lot more options for hazard control that it'll gladly take. Some of these could be taken from NU; for example Rotom-C (which was decent before cause of its typing) and Sigilyph (which has a niche as a magic guard defogger). With better hazard control, there's less need for Pokemon such as Donphan and Blastoise which are otherwise useless apart from spinning (Tsareena got a decent buff so I can see it staying RU). Furthermore, I can see Galvantula dropping on virtue of better hazard removal and a faster webs setter in Ribombee, both of which hurt Galvantula's niche as a webs setter.

What do you guys think? Can you see these mons dropping and if so, will they be good here?
Hard to say about rapid spinners dropping- they help keep your own hazards up, but they’ll definitely drop some in usage. Part of it will depend on matchup vs the new popular hazard removal, but I can’t see both of them staying RU.
 
#39
What is the general opinion of Sheer Force Kingler finally getting a great STAB move?

252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Kingler Liquidation vs. 240 HP / 156 Def Mew: 222-263 (55.3 - 65.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Liquidation vs. 240 HP / 156 Def Mew: 191-226 (47.6 - 56.3%) -- 27.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

=> Mini-Feraligatr
Notably, the coverage on Kingler is much worse, having basically only Body Slam/Knock Off/Rock Slide , while Body Slam being not compatible with KnockOff/Agility
 
#40
Honestly Liquidation isn't as much of a boon for Kingler as people are making it out to be. With Sheer Force its power is 110.5, not much higher than Crabhammer's 100. While it has other advantages like accuracy and no LO recoil, this change will barely be enough to make it viable in PU, let alone NU.
 

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#41
The big thing with this buff is that it doesn’t really do anything to fix Kingler’s key issues, granted it does allow Kingler to net a handful of absolutely insane KOs that it can’t otherwise obtain. It’ll probably remain kinda crap as such, but hey this is a theorymon thread and Kingler has always been kinda interesting to me just because of how powerful it is compared to Samurott even without the buff—so fuck it. To put the power difference into perspective:

252+ Atk Samurott Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Garbodor: 103-123 (28.2 - 33.7%) -- 0.5% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Sheer Force Kingler Liquidation vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Garbodor: 171-202 (46.9 - 55.4%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO (note: Crabhammer doesn’t achieve this KO, although both 2HKO after SR)

This is a huge damage increase by comparison even before you consider differences in item choice, and it comes alongside 5 extra base Speed (allows it to tie with offensive Garb) and access to Agility and KOff (edit: nvm Samu gets KOff but still) over Samu to boot. It’s not even like Kingler is lacking in coverage given that SD/double dance sets don’t really need more than X-Scissor and smth to lure Drudd and fat waters not called Slowbro. Sheer Force Liquidation means it has the freedom to run LO without it seriously eating into its ability to break stuff, which is a big boon over Samurott too. Losing out on Aqua Jet sucks tho; like, major levels of suckiness. The power increase over Crabhammer isn’t really that big, but it’s still fun to talk about anyway ‘cuz it now has quite a few spammable moves in its arsenal (and by that I mean 2 in KOff and Liquidation).

A few sets that could be interesting:

Kingler @ Life Orb / Buginium Z
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance / Knock Off
- Agility / Knock Off
- Liquidation
- X-Scissor

Pretty self-explanatory; a setup attacker that can clean and/or wallbreak decently. This Pokemon is mad strong like holy heck. There really aren’t many consistent defensive stops to a +2 Kingler dear lord. Also worth noting that a resisted Liquidation is stronger than a neutral X-Scissor, which is just... lol...

Noteworthy calcs:
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Kingler X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 338-398 (85.7 - 101%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Kingler Liquidation vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Garbodor: 304-359 (100.9 - 119.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Kingler Savage Spin-Out (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Druddigon: 295-348 (82.4 - 97.2%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252+ Atk Kingler Savage Spin-Out (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vaporeon: 376-443 (81 - 95.4%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Kingler X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vaporeon: 244-289 (52.5 - 62.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

+2 252+ Atk Kingler Savage Spin-Out (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Seismitoad: 330-389 (79.7 - 93.9%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Kingler X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Seismitoad: 214-253 (51.6 - 61.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Kingler Savage Spin-Out (160 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Whimsicott: 220-259 (84.2 - 99.2%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (Agility on switch-in and proceed to OHKO even if it has Encore)

+2 252+ Atk Kingler Savage Spin-Out (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vileplume: 306-361 (86.4 - 101.9%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Kingler Liquidation vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Ferroseed: 133-156 (45.5 - 53.4%) -- 88.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 Atk Ferroseed Seed Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kingler: 90-108 (35.8 - 43%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Kingler @ Choice Band
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Liquidation
- Knock Off
- X-Scissor
- Superpower

Baiscally functions by spamming KOff early game to remove Lefties from shit like Seismi/Vapo/Plume/Pyuku that try to switch in on Kingler to absorb its absurd Liquidation. From there they become a lot more pressed to check stuff throughout the match due to the loss of the passive recovery from Leftovers, and once stuff is weakened by teammates there isn’t really much that can take on a CB Liquidation from this thing. Even if it just lures and removes Leftovers from stuff it has done its job, which is all that really matters with a ‘mon like this. Superpower is total filler but it's kinda nice as the strongest move vs neut grasses/waters and ferro etc.

Noteworthy calcs:
252+ Atk Choice Band Kingler X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 194-230 (49.2 - 58.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Choice Band Sheer Force Kingler Liquidation vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Sceptile: 212-249 (75.4 - 88.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes (lol)

252+ Atk Choice Band Kingler Superpower vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Virizion: 282-332 (87.3 - 102.7%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes

252+ Atk Choice Band Sheer Force Kingler Liquidation vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Samurott: 170-201 (51.3 - 60.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Can’t set up on a Liquidation lock ‘cuz it’s slower)


Ofc this is all theorymon and Kingler is prolly still gonna suck, but I feel like this is gonna be a ‘mon I’m gonna mess with at some point anyway hahaha.
 
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Ares

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#42
Beaten to the kingler punch, but to add on to it and show the difference from before to now.
Honestly Liquidation isn't as much of a boon for Kingler as people are making it out to be. With Sheer Force its power is 110.5, not much higher than Crabhammer's 100. While it has other advantages like accuracy and no LO recoil, this change will barely be enough to make it viable in PU, let alone NU.
I mean I dont disagree with you on being good in NU, but it is going to destroy in PU.

252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Kingler Liquidation vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 259-305 (75.9 - 89.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Kingler Crabhammer vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 234-277 (68.6 - 81.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Wave Incense Kingler Crabhammer vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 216-255 (63.3 - 74.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

And I mean thats with Life Orb on non Sheer Force sets, which most tend not to run due to the recoil and the fact there was nothing good with Sheer Force before. STAB spammable no recoil increase of power is a pretty huge difference.
 
#43
From what it looks like, RU has a lot more options for hazard control that it'll gladly take. Some of these could be taken from NU; for example Rotom-C (which was decent before cause of its typing) and Sigilyph (which has a niche as a magic guard defogger). With better hazard control, there's less need for Pokemon such as Donphan and Blastoise which are otherwise useless apart from spinning (Tsareena got a decent buff so I can see it staying RU). Furthermore, I can see Galvantula dropping on virtue of better hazard removal and a faster webs setter in Ribombee, both of which hurt Galvantula's niche as a webs setter.

What do you guys think? Can you see these mons dropping and if so, will they be good here?
Likely drops for when the USUM meta begins include mons that are already below the 3.41 mark, meaning that at their current rate they'll drop. (Heliolisk, Aerodactyl, and Comfey IIRC) Blastoise is another one I can see going down in the future, mainly in part for being more useless against a lot of the new hazard setters (Scald is a nice touch, but Blastoise's bulk is rather deceptive; Most builds would rather run Milo + Gligar or something). Its an obnoxiously high mon in usage, but if it were to drop, I see it as essentially a worse Vaporeon that spins (Z-Celebrate is just garb in general don't use it). Probably a 'glue' mon of sorts, but unless I'm convinced otherwise it'll face a lot of competition (though the loss Rotom-C would likely be a major point in its favor). The Tarantula vs Bee debate could end in the latter winning mainly due to its Fairy-typing giving it a good matchup vs a lot of top tier threats combined with its speed (despite Nidoqueen being a thing). I'd rather not discuss RU issues though, so Galvantula would be excellent for Webs, as it reliably beats Xatu (although IIRC it can't switch in to well vs Heat Wave), something Shuckle (and Smeargle, since that'll inevitably drop) desperately lacks. As a wallbreaker I'd rather use Vika, but being much faster and carrying an accurate Thunder are points in its favor, somewhat at least.

Now onto the meat of the discussion (as Donphan won't drop no matter how good the new removers are lol):

Aerodactyl: This would be a cool ass wallbreaker combined with a Grass-type like Whimsi or Sceptile. It also has an incredible speed tier for NU. It definitely needs a boosting item/move in order to put in work though, but it still ends up being a solid mon overall, most likely anyway. Rocker sets face competition with Arch and even Lycanroc although the Flying STAB helps it a bit.

Heliolisk: If lawn mower goes bye-bye this will likely be a decent replacement. The lacking power that caused it to suck in RU isn't that bad in NU's case, and Dry Skin is an excellent ability allowing it to beat most bulky Waters 1v1. Coverage options like Grass Knot and Surf ultimately make it appealing, but I'm not quite sure of its exact success.

Comfey: Annoying as hell to deal with for teams lacking Garb, Gears, or Lix? Fucking check. It'll be a terrible Defogger most likely, but the standard Calm Mind set with Draining Kiss makes for a solid win condition once the Poisons and Steels go down. It does have access to one of Z-move that boost all of your stats, but it comes with a terrible nature for Comfey so don't use that.

Sigilyph, Froslass, and Rotom-C are our most likely losses (Lass in particular doesn't care too much about the new removal options). Rotom-C would be a major loss, one that will likely lead to other Electric-types rising to take its spotlight. Most of the other Grass-types here are more affected by the competition with Whimsi more than anything else, so I don't think the loss of lawn mower will affect say Sceptile or Lilligant much.

The best way to look at potential stuff from RU coming here is mainly via the usage stats. We don't know exactly how the new mons will affect other stuff near that margin. (Though Mega Lix essentially guarantees a shift in the usage of certain mons; So we might even see Registeel come here, although I doubt it)
 
#44

Turns out ya boy Guzzlord got a total makeover this gen!
252 HP
252 Attack
4 Defense
Brave Nature
-Knock off
-Heavy Slam
-Drain Punch
-Outrage
Assault Vest

With two new and improved STABs and SOME form of recovery, Guzzlord becomes a pretty solid special tank that can dish out damage. It becomes even stronger with Trick Room/Wish support. Glad to see one of my favorite UBs is growing stronger!

Alternatively
252 HP
252 Attack
4 Special Defense
Sassy Nature
-Knock Off
-Stockpile/Iron Defense
-Drain Punch
-Dragon Tail
Leftovers/Sitrus berry

This is more of a gimmick set, as I have not done any calculations for it, and it is absurdly weak to Fairies. That said, I figured I would throw it out here.
Don't invest in guzzlord's hp. Your spread increases its overall bulk by 11% but if you do 128 def / 128 spdef, you increase its overall bulk by 22%. It's because of that wonky hp:defense ratio.
Small things like this gives your idea more credibility

Also the i could see a z-stockpile + dragon tail + knock + heavy slam being a better but still gimmicky phazer to your 2nd set
 
#45
just wanna point our that 0/0 mew is no set, and not very relevant in NU but kingler was alright even before liquidation

set i used was sd/agility/crabhammer/xscissor w/buginium to easily kill bro at +2

now with LO SF liquidation it opens up a new door as a nice early game breaker and potentially late game cleaner that doesnt miss, that can, given the right opportunity, set up on weaker physical attackers given its nice natural physical bulk. kingler could potentially even set up on slowbro, if its able to dodge the burn twice (which i know, is practically impossible)

another water type to look forward to in usm :o

to touch on the mentioned rise of electric types: no other electric types particulary stand out to me, as most of them struggle to deal with common electric resists/immunes, while they can run hp grass or ice, both usually fail to do significant damage to anything, and most lack the power rotom mow has. (zebstrika, manectric, pompomcorio ig) if heliolisk does end up dropping, i think its gonna be very hard to deal with, and its probably gonna be hard to adapt as not much really manages to answer electric+normal+surf coverage barring eg spdef gourgeist or possibly spdef miltank/audino 2 of which it can toxic by dropping thunderbolt and heavily pressure as a result (also not all audinos run heal bell)

mega steelix dropping to ru had also opened a door for registeel or bronzong to drop, (more rockers yay) which would give potentially comfey an even harder time. both of these would be decent answers for heliolisk though and i would like to see them drop

sorry for no caps and stuff i wrote this on phone :x
 
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#47
From what it looks like, RU has a lot more options for hazard control that it'll gladly take. Some of these could be taken from NU; for example Rotom-C (which was decent before cause of its typing) and Sigilyph (which has a niche as a magic guard defogger). With better hazard control, there's less need for Pokemon such as Donphan and Blastoise which are otherwise useless apart from spinning (Tsareena got a decent buff so I can see it staying RU). Furthermore, I can see Galvantula dropping on virtue of better hazard removal and a faster webs setter in Ribombee, both of which hurt Galvantula's niche as a webs setter.

What do you guys think? Can you see these mons dropping and if so, will they be good here?
RU has an huge boner for bad spinners and bad Pokémon in general. Donphan is the 6th most used Pokémon on the ladder despite being completely outclassed by Gligar already. Don't get your hopes up for Donphan and Blastoise dropping.
 
#48
just wanna point our that 0/0 mew is no set, and not very relevant in NU but kingler was alright even before liquidation

set i used was sd/agility/crabhammer/xscissor w/buginium to easily kill bro at +2

now with LO SF liquidation it opens up a new door as a nice early game breaker and potentially late game cleaner, that can, given the right opportunity, set up on weaker physical attackers given its nice natural physical bulk. kingler could potentially even set up on slowbro, if its able to dodge the burn twice (which i know, is practically impossible)

another water type to look forward to in usm :o

to touch on the mentioned rise of electric types: no other electric types particulary stand out to me, as most of them struggle to deal with common electric resists/immunes, while they can run hp grass or ice, both usually fail to do significant damage to anything, and most lack the power rotom mow has. (zebstrika, manectric, pompomcorio ig) if heliolisk does end up dropping, i think its gonna be very hard to deal with, and its probably gonna be hard to adapt as not much really manages to answer electric+normal+surf coverage barring eg spdef gourgeist or possibly spdef miltank/audino 2 of which it can toxic by dropping thunderbolt and heavily pressure as a result (also not all audinos run heal bell)

mega steelix dropping to ru had also opened a door for registeel or bronzong to drop, (more rockers yay) which would give potentially comfey an even harder time. both of these would be decent answers for heliolisk though and i would like to see them drop

sorry for no caps and stuff i wrote on phone :x

No way in the world are Bronzong or registeel dropping because of Lix. Lix is more bulky offence while the other two are strictly defensive (and still very good in their roles)

Heliolisk would be a pain, but I’m not sure it’d be broken. It’d be more likely to run hp grass over toxic because of gastrodon and (maybe) seismitoad if it stays.
 
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