Resource USUM OU ULTRA Viability Ranking Thread

[Toshiro46]

I agree with this. Not to mention it was the best mega in the ORAS OU. That stab fake out is actually very effective for rubbing out damage and as you said before; outspeeding Tapu Koko, Weavile ( though Weavile has priority ), Hawluncha ( Unburden outspeeds Mega Lopunny ) and Latios really helps it. A rank is agreeable in my eyes; and I have used it in battle. Return and High Jump Kick are actually solid moves even though High Jump Kick is a risky move.

These are some examples of High Jump Kick.
252 Atk Lopunny-Mega High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 0+ Def Ferrothorn: 318-374 (90.3 - 106.2%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Lopunny-Mega High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 91 Def Heatran: 386-456 (100 - 118.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Lopunny-Mega High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-Black: 440-518 (96.9 - 114%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO


Return can be pretty weak when fighting most OU pokemon, but Return can be a problem if Lopunny gets an attack boost. Before someone says that this applies to most physical attacks in OU; which is true. But it's high speed stat and decently high attack is important.
+1 252 Atk Lopunny-Mega Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Volcarona: 366-432 (97.8 - 115.5%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
+1 252 Atk Lopunny-Mega Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Hoopa-Unbound: 390-460 (107.1 - 126.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 Atk Lopunny-Mega Return vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Latios: 309-364 (102.6 - 120.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

I have no opinion on a Lopunny rise as I haven’t played all that much recently, but I don’t think this was a good nom. You just named some of its qualities and listed some calcs. If Mega Lop was unranked or relatively unexplored, the qualities you listed would be good for pointing out what it can do. But it is ranked, at A-, mostly for the reasons you gave. When nomming for a rise, you generally want to list changing trends in the metagame that benefit Lopunny and make it more viable, such as a check like Toxapex falling off in usage (an example, it actually isn’t) or a mon that Lopunny takes advantage of rising in usage. Or you could list off a new, unexplored set that you think makes it that much better. Sorta how people are arguing for a Bulu rise due to its AV set bursting into the scene in the past month or so. But just listing off the qualities that got it ranked in the first place doesn’t help your case. Neither does mentioning that it was the best Mega in ORAS OU, as that’s a completely different metagame.

Hope this helps you out for future posts

 

[NintendoVSPlaystation]

I have no opinion on a Lopunny rise as I haven’t played all that much recently, but I don’t think this was a good nom. You just named some of its qualities and listed some calcs. If Mega Lop was unranked or relatively unexplored, the qualities you listed would be good for pointing out what it can do. But it is ranked, at A-, mostly for the reasons you gave. When nomming for a rise, you generally want to list changing trends in the metagame that benefit Lopunny and make it more viable, such as a check like Toxapex falling off in usage (an example, it actually isn’t) or a mon that Lopunny takes advantage of rising in usage. Or you could list off a new, unexplored set that you think makes it that much better. Sorta how people are arguing for a Bulu rise due to its AV set bursting into the scene in the past month or so. But just listing off the qualities that got it ranked in the first place doesn’t help your case. Neither does mentioning that it was the best Mega in ORAS OU, as that’s a completely different metagame.

Hope this helps you out for future posts

Thank you, the problem is I need to learn more about the Pokemon metagame. For example Tapu Koko boosted in usage to A+ not only because of it's kill confirms, but it's utility and more water type being added in the game. As well as it's ability to summon an Electric terrain about it. Sorry if you did not think it was a good norm, I am not a Smogon expert. What Pokemon do you think should rise in the OU tier list?

 

[Yung Dramps]

Skarmory: B --> B-

In contrary to Yung Dramps his nomination I'd like to nom Skarmory down, this Pokemon is very hard to fit on teams and really it hasn't benefitted from any metatrends and if any it's been very small for Skarmory. First of all, the fact that Skarmory is limited to Shed Shell as its item to escape Magnezone in itself is very bad for Skarmory since it really appreciates the passive recovery Leftovers offers. While yes Skarmory has access to Roost to keep it healthy and a massive phys def stat, please do not forget its terrible spdef and hp stat which means that it will drop to most Special Attacks relatively fast. Skarmory also heavily struggles with even a lot of physical attackers like Hawlucha (lol it does not beat Hawlucha no.), SD Kartana (this breaks skarm's sturdy with Leaf Blade and after that it gets KOd by either Darkinium Z or Fightinium Z at +2), Offensive Landorus-T (how the fuck would it beat this lol.), even SD Mega Scizor can heavily cripple it thanks to its access to Knock Off. Furthermore Skarmory also fails to check any type of special attacker as many of them like Ash Greninja, Heatran, Tapu Koko, Offensive Magearna, and Volcarona can easily beat it and these are just some of the top Pokemon atm. Did i mention it's a defensive Steel-type that fails to check Tapu Lele btw?

Mega Latios: B --> B-

Mega Latios was a perfect Tyranitar and Magearna lure at first however now it's known to carry Earthquake in its arsenal, thus making it easier for opponents to pivot around it since they know the possibility of getting lured and hit by an Earthquake, however I don't think its lure value as a whole is gone since HP Fire instead of Roost/Draco can be very useful to trick opponents into thinking they have succesfully played around ur lure, for example, they have Tyranitar and expect u to use Earthquake on Tyranitar, most of the time they will then switch into Mega Scizor or Ferrothorn (if they have those) to take the EQ and effeciently deal with Mega Latios, however when they come in on Earthquake they will be in range of HP Fire and bop u lured other mons.

I definitely agree with dropping Mega Latios, its value as a lure is dropping a ton as the surprise factor is growing smaller and smaller. However, as you might imagine, I heavily disagree with dropping Skarmory, mostly because I just find that your logic is kinda flawed. You ask "How does Skarmory beat these things?" Well, I clearly explained that it uses Sturdy and it's naturally good physical bulk to tank sweepers and Whirlwind them out. Hell, sometimes it doesn't even need Sturdy intact:
+2 252 Atk Landorus-Therian Continental Crush (180 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 241-284 (72.3 - 85.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Hawlucha High Jump Kick vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 210-247 (63 - 74.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

You also mention how it loses to Tapu Koko, Heatran, Magearna, Ash-Greninja and Volcarona. Well, guess who else loses to pretty much all of these except for maybe Ash-Greninja? Celesteela. "But Earthquake!" Ok, but what Celesteela is running EQ nowadays? Remember, for your attacking moves, you need Heavy Slam for STAB and Flamethrower to not lose to Kartana.

I can understand not wanting to raise Skarmory, I see some valid arguments against that, but dropping it because of logic like that is just silly. The way your post was written almost made it seem like you were going against a nomination gaining some traction just for the sake of it.

 

[Divine Retribution]

I don't really care about Skarmory to be honest, it's a Pokemon I've neither used nor seen used very often in the past few months, but I don't think access to Whirlwind is enough of a reason to move Skarmory up or even justify it keeping its current rank especially when a lot of Skarm sets don't even run Whirlwind. I'm also not sure how pointing out that some of the things that beat Skarmory also beat Celesteela is an argument in its favor either...

 

[robofiend]

I have no opinion on a Lopunny rise as I haven’t played all that much recently, but I don’t think this was a good nom. You just named some of its qualities and listed some calcs. If Mega Lop was unranked or relatively unexplored, the qualities you listed would be good for pointing out what it can do. But it is ranked, at A-, mostly for the reasons you gave. When nomming for a rise, you generally want to list changing trends in the metagame that benefit Lopunny and make it more viable, such as a check like Toxapex falling off in usage (an example, it actually isn’t) or a mon that Lopunny takes advantage of rising in usage. Or you could list off a new, unexplored set that you think makes it that much better. Sorta how people are arguing for a Bulu rise due to its AV set bursting into the scene in the past month or so. But just listing off the qualities that got it ranked in the first place doesn’t help your case. Neither does mentioning that it was the best Mega in ORAS OU, as that’s a completely different metagame.

Hope this helps you out for future posts

I'm echoing this, Lopunny doesn't deserve a rise. I've used it a lot recently and it's a fine teammate, but it suffers massively from 4MSS and fails to break a number of top-tier Pokemon in the metagame without prior damage, some luck, or absolutely masterful prediction. Let me explain.

1. Toxapex: by far the worst thing to face as a M-Lopunny user, it swaps in on anything and won't die to a +1 Return. Even when you're running Encore, all this thing needs to do is get a burn with Scald and swap out to do its job effectively. Regenerator lets you pull this off numerous times throughout a match - not that Lopunny has a good chance of safely getting into play more than a few times throughout a match.

252 Atk Lopunny-Mega Return vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Toxapex: 96-114 (31.5 - 37.5%) -- 85.7% chance to 3HKO
+1 252 Atk Lopunny-Mega Return vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Toxapex: 144-169 (47.3 - 55.5%) -- 76.6% chance to 2HKO

2. Landorus-T: The other S-Rank, and a pain in the ass for M-Lopunny. While Ice Punch hits it hard, it doesn't score a kill, even if you get it with PuP on the switch. On top of this, Lando's all-too-common Rocky Helmet completely nullifies the effectiveness of PuP, as it leaves you at neutral and you take damage. Last, Lando's ability to retaliate with Earthquake gives it needed retaliatory power.

252 Atk Lopunny-Mega Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Landorus-Therian: 272-320 (71.2 - 83.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
-1 252 Atk Lopunny-Mega Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Landorus-Therian: 180-216 (47.1 - 56.5%) -- 25% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
-1 252 Atk Lopunny-Mega Return vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Landorus-Therian: 93-109 (24.3 - 28.5%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

3. Zapdos: Another popular wall whose been enjoying a little more popularity recently with Kartana, Bulu and M-Scizor's rise in popularity. Similar to Landorus in that PuP is not effective and it opens the door for you to take Static paralysis. Even if you correctly predict it, neutral Ice Punch is a 2-3HKO (depending on SR/prior damage) meaning you're looking at two 30% chances to have a ruined M-Lopunny for the rest of the match.

252 Atk Lopunny-Mega Ice Punch vs. 248 HP / 240+ Def Zapdos: 138-164 (36 - 42.8%) -- 95.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Lopunny-Mega Ice Punch vs. 248 HP / 240+ Def Zapdos: 138-164 (36 - 42.8%) -- 20.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Lopunny-Mega Ice Punch vs. 248 HP / 240+ Def Zapdos: 204-242 (53.2 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

4. Scarf users/Speed Tier: Latios, Kartana, Landorus-T, Tapu Lele, and pretty much any other Scarfer (save Greninja) has recourse against Lopunny. While that's not a death sentence (all of these pokemon are also vulnerable to others if they lack a Scarf or are locked into a bad move), it doesn't help a pokemon whose job it is to set up and sweep with PuP. In particular, Latios, Lele, and Landorus can also swap in on a PuP or HJK and threaten it out. One of the major selling points for M-Lopunny is that it's faster than all of these Pokemon (and Tapu Koko/Ash Greninja) when they're not scarfed, but in reality, any or all of these pokemon might nullify it and the only way to know is to swap M-Lopunny out and guess what's going on. That's a problem for something as frail as M-Lop is and once you take entry damage a couple of times it starts to show. On top of this, Ash-Greninja has Water Shuriken, which ruins your day and knocks another name off the list of things that M-Lopunny surely beats because of its great speed tier.

252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Water Shuriken (20 BP) (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Lopunny-Mega: 174-207 (64.2 - 76.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

5. Power-up Punch: This move itself is a massive conundrum for the M-Lopunny user. What exactly does it kill? Weakened Ash-Greninja, weakened Tyranitar, weakened Heatran.. etc. It doesn't kill anything in the metagame from reasonably high health, and that quickly becomes an issue. For instance, a PuP against Heatran can mean you're taking huge damage from Magma Storm (or a burn from Lava Plume) or a Hydro Pump from Ash-Greninja. Even in more favorable matchups, PuP can become a liability: what happens when your opponent sends in Ferrothorn and you take Iron Barbs damage and then have to guess whether or not it's running Protect? Same situation applies to Celesteela. The point in each of these cases is that while it may seem dumb to go for PuP against these Pokemon, PuP is the only way that you
can properly sweep, and it's often abused as a method for powering up when a would-be KO is predicted to switch out. Overall, the move presents the user with many 50/50's that can be painfully costly.

252 Atk Lopunny-Mega Power-Up Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja-Ash: 186-222 (65.2 - 77.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Lopunny-Mega Power-Up Punch vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 132-156 (34.2 - 40.5%) -- 31.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Heatran Lava Plume vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Lopunny-Mega: 111-132 (40.9 - 48.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 Atk Lopunny-Mega Power-Up Punch vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 92-110 (26.1 - 31.2%) -- 10.1% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Ferrothorn Gyro Ball (133 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lopunny-Mega: 144-169 (53.1 - 62.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

6. Tapu Bulu: Yet another defensive mon that swaps in on Lopunny and forces it out. This one's near the bottom of the list of checks since it's easy enough to play around, but it just illustrates how annoying trying to sweep with Lopunny can be. Bulu also has the added advantage of being able to cover Lopunny with Superpower and hit common switch ins like Kartana and Heatran in case Lopunny sees its death coming.

252 Atk Lopunny-Mega Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tapu Bulu: 150-178 (43.6 - 51.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
+1 252 Atk Lopunny-Mega Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tapu Bulu: 226-266 (65.6 - 77.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
252+ Atk Tapu Bulu Horn Leech vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lopunny-Mega in Grassy Terrain: 213-252 (78.5 - 92.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery

7. Encore: In my world, this move is a recipe for 50/50's and lost turns. Think about it: you swap in against SR Heatran, Ferrothorn, Skarmory, Clefable, Chansey, Lando, etc. Each and everyone one of these pokemon can either see that coming and hit you on the switch or they can just set up and swap out on the predicted Encore. In some of these cases (Skarmory, Chansey) the punishment for mispredicting isn't too bad. But in the case of Clefable, Heatran, or Ferrothorn, that can mean some unfortunate damage that you didn't want to take. The other case in which you'd use Encore is to stop slow setup Pokemon. But in that case, what exactly are you swapping in on? What uses CM or Swords Dance and is either too impotent or too slow for Lopunny to safely swap in on? I have never found this move to be particularly useful outside of maybe dealing with Toxapex a little better.

In conclusion, I've just listed 7 ways that Mega Lopunny struggles with common situations in the current metagame. That's not to say it's trash or deserving of a drop, but rather that it has some major issues with popular pokemon. While it boasts some qualities that are worthy of praise, like a great speed tier, the ability to boost and simultaneously deal damage, perfect neutral coverage, and some fun gimmicks like Encore, this doesn't amount to an A-Rank pokemon in my book.

 

[aogalicia]

I'm echoing this, Lopunny doesn't deserve a rise. I've used it a lot recently and it's a fine teammate, but it suffers massively from 4MSS and fails to break a number of top-tier Pokemon in the metagame without prior damage, some luck, or absolutely masterful prediction. Let me explain.

1. Toxapex: by far the worst thing to face as a M-Lopunny user, it swaps in on anything and won't die to a +1 Return. Even when you're running Encore, all this thing needs to do is get a burn with Scald and swap out to do its job effectively. Regenerator lets you pull this off numerous times throughout a match - not that Lopunny has a good chance of safely getting into play more than a few times throughout a match.

252 Atk Lopunny-Mega Return vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Toxapex: 96-114 (31.5 - 37.5%) -- 85.7% chance to 3HKO
+1 252 Atk Lopunny-Mega Return vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Toxapex: 144-169 (47.3 - 55.5%) -- 76.6% chance to 2HKO

2. Landorus-T: The other S-Rank, and a pain in the ass for M-Lopunny. While Ice Punch hits it hard, it doesn't score a kill, even if you get it with PuP on the switch. On top of this, Lando's all-too-common Rocky Helmet completely nullifies the effectiveness of PuP, as it leaves you at neutral and you take damage. Last, Lando's ability to retaliate with Earthquake gives it needed retaliatory power.

252 Atk Lopunny-Mega Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Landorus-Therian: 272-320 (71.2 - 83.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
-1 252 Atk Lopunny-Mega Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Landorus-Therian: 180-216 (47.1 - 56.5%) -- 25% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
-1 252 Atk Lopunny-Mega Return vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Landorus-Therian: 93-109 (24.3 - 28.5%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

3. Zapdos: Another popular wall whose been enjoying a little more popularity recently with Kartana, Bulu and M-Scizor's rise in popularity. Similar to Landorus in that PuP is not effective and it opens the door for you to take Static paralysis. Even if you correctly predict it, neutral Ice Punch is a 2-3HKO (depending on SR/prior damage) meaning you're looking at two 30% chances to have a ruined M-Lopunny for the rest of the match.

252 Atk Lopunny-Mega Ice Punch vs. 248 HP / 240+ Def Zapdos: 138-164 (36 - 42.8%) -- 95.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Lopunny-Mega Ice Punch vs. 248 HP / 240+ Def Zapdos: 138-164 (36 - 42.8%) -- 20.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Lopunny-Mega Ice Punch vs. 248 HP / 240+ Def Zapdos: 204-242 (53.2 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

4. Scarf users/Speed Tier: Latios, Kartana, Landorus-T, Tapu Lele, and pretty much any other Scarfer (save Greninja) has recourse against Lopunny. While that's not a death sentence (all of these pokemon are also vulnerable to others if they lack a Scarf or are locked into a bad move), it doesn't help a pokemon whose job it is to set up and sweep with PuP. In particular, Latios, Lele, and Landorus can also swap in on a PuP or HJK and threaten it out. One of the major selling points for M-Lopunny is that it's faster than all of these Pokemon (and Tapu Koko/Ash Greninja) when they're not scarfed, but in reality, any or all of these pokemon might nullify it and the only way to know is to swap M-Lopunny out and guess what's going on. That's a problem for something as frail as M-Lop is and once you take entry damage a couple of times it starts to show. On top of this, Ash-Greninja has Water Shuriken, which ruins your day and knocks another name off the list of things that M-Lopunny surely beats because of its great speed tier.

252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Water Shuriken (20 BP) (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Lopunny-Mega: 174-207 (64.2 - 76.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

5. Power-up Punch: This move itself is a massive conundrum for the M-Lopunny user. What exactly does it kill? Weakened Ash-Greninja, weakened Tyranitar, weakened Heatran.. etc. It doesn't kill anything in the metagame from reasonably high health, and that quickly becomes an issue. For instance, a PuP against Heatran can mean you're taking huge damage from Magma Storm (or a burn from Lava Plume) or a Hydro Pump from Ash-Greninja. Even in more favorable matchups, PuP can become a liability: what happens when your opponent sends in Ferrothorn and you take Iron Barbs damage and then have to guess whether or not it's running Protect? Same situation applies to Celesteela. The point in each of these cases is that while it may seem dumb to go for PuP against these Pokemon, PuP is the only way that you
can properly sweep, and it's often abused as a method for powering up when a would-be KO is predicted to switch out. Overall, the move presents the user with many 50/50's that can be painfully costly.

252 Atk Lopunny-Mega Power-Up Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja-Ash: 186-222 (65.2 - 77.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Lopunny-Mega Power-Up Punch vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 132-156 (34.2 - 40.5%) -- 31.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Heatran Lava Plume vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Lopunny-Mega: 111-132 (40.9 - 48.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 Atk Lopunny-Mega Power-Up Punch vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 92-110 (26.1 - 31.2%) -- 10.1% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Ferrothorn Gyro Ball (133 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lopunny-Mega: 144-169 (53.1 - 62.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

6. Tapu Bulu: Yet another defensive mon that swaps in on Lopunny and forces it out. This one's near the bottom of the list of checks since it's easy enough to play around, but it just illustrates how annoying trying to sweep with Lopunny can be. Bulu also has the added advantage of being able to cover Lopunny with Superpower and hit common switch ins like Kartana and Heatran in case Lopunny sees its death coming.

252 Atk Lopunny-Mega Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tapu Bulu: 150-178 (43.6 - 51.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
+1 252 Atk Lopunny-Mega Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tapu Bulu: 226-266 (65.6 - 77.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
252+ Atk Tapu Bulu Horn Leech vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lopunny-Mega in Grassy Terrain: 213-252 (78.5 - 92.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery

7. Encore: In my world, this move is a recipe for 50/50's and lost turns. Think about it: you swap in against SR Heatran, Ferrothorn, Skarmory, Clefable, Chansey, Lando, etc. Each and everyone one of these pokemon can either see that coming and hit you on the switch or they can just set up and swap out on the predicted Encore. In some of these cases (Skarmory, Chansey) the punishment for mispredicting isn't too bad. But in the case of Clefable, Heatran, or Ferrothorn, that can mean some unfortunate damage that you didn't want to take. The other case in which you'd use Encore is to stop slow setup Pokemon. But in that case, what exactly are you swapping in on? What uses CM or Swords Dance and is either too impotent or too slow for Lopunny to safely swap in on? I have never found this move to be particularly useful outside of maybe dealing with Toxapex a little better.

In conclusion, I've just listed 7 ways that Mega Lopunny struggles with common situations in the current metagame. That's not to say it's trash or deserving of a drop, but rather that it has some major issues with popular pokemon. While it boasts some qualities that are worthy of praise, like a great speed tier, the ability to boost and simultaneously deal damage, perfect neutral coverage, and some fun gimmicks like Encore, this doesn't amount to an A-Rank pokemon in my book.

Is Toxapex running Defense again?

 

[Finchinator]

Is Toxapex running Defense again?

Usually would not keep a one-liner like this, but I feel like the response to this is relevant to discussion and instead of deleting I will just publicly say to people to remember the rules, don't post one-liners, etc.

ANYWAY, the answer to your question is no, they don't (or at least shouldn't). I'm not sure why those calcs have 192+ in all honesty as SDef is clearly the most common and best spread in my eyes. Ash Greninja, Blacephalon, and a few others are common enough to warrant SDef Toxapex easily being the standard. We should keep this in mind for future posts!

 

[Take Azelfie]

A+ ---> S

Okay hear me out. Koko is by far the most annoying and broken mon currently allowed. I won't go into too much on what it does because we already know why its good. It Tbolt's are like tossing trucks around and its not a very one dimensional mon and it has all the moves it would ever needs. You got the powerful Dazzling Gleam and Grass Knot + whatever Hidden Power your heart could desire. And because it has other utility moves such as Taunt, Roost, and Wild Charge that further enhances its ability to fit whatever niche you want. Now I'm not here to circlejerk wouldever we already know but I'm here to talk about why its one of the most broken Pokemon I have ever seen. One of the biggest problems of it actually lie in U-Turn. Koko comes in and you are either faced with the hardest hitting Thunderbolt you have even seen or be baited out into a potentially more dangerous mon. And if you aren't facing Specs, it can play the control match up MUCH more than it would with Specs. You may go into your Tangrowth but now you let in Hawlucha, Heatran, or Kyurem Black. While Specs itself is probably one of the most powerful cleaners in the game next to Specs Ash I feel that U-Turn takes this too far because now are you not only playing with a premier threats but also providing all the other broken ass cleaners and wallbreakers with one of the most fantastic pivots in the game. While Volt-Turn may have struggled in ORAS because of premier Volt Switchers having to play around some Ground-types really well, Tapu Koko just comes out here and gets its free pivot without giving a damn about your immunities. This trait on its own is my biggest claim to Koko derserving S. This completely warps matches around because unless your that one player who runs Protect on every damn mon like its doubles, then Koko be giving you a hella hard time bringing in all these mons for free. Now, there is no denying that there aren't a few solid Koko answers and that U-Turn literally solves all of its problems. Despite Zygarde and Lando being 4x weak to Hidden Power Ice on any set that ain't specs or the uncommon Life Orb they at least threaten Koko to not mindlessly click Tbolt but in general it has pretty free reign. I think Koko is the absolute definition of control because of its ability to the opposing player abide to all of its possibilities so much more than the other mons which is why I wholeheartedly. The ability to force switches with its typing as well as the best U-Turn in the metagame to capitalize on said switches is what gives Koko the defining edge in a lot of matchups.

 

[Gojiratar]

A+ ---> S

Okay hear me out. Koko is by far the most annoying and broken mon currently allowed. I won't go into too much on what it does because we already know why its good. It Tbolt's are like tossing trucks around and its not a very one dimensional mon and it has all the moves it would ever needs. You got the powerful Dazzling Gleam and Grass Knot + whatever Hidden Power your heart could desire. And because it has other utility moves such as Taunt, Roost, and Wild Charge that further enhances its ability to fit whatever niche you want. Now I'm not here to circlejerk wouldever we already know but I'm here to talk about why its one of the most broken Pokemon I have ever seen. One of the biggest problems of it actually lie in U-Turn. Koko comes in and you are either faced with the hardest hitting Thunderbolt you have even seen or be baited out into a potentially more dangerous mon. And if you aren't facing Specs, it can play the control match up MUCH more than it would with Specs. You may go into your Tangrowth but now you let in Hawlucha, Heatran, or Kyurem Black. While Specs itself is probably one of the most powerful cleaners in the game next to Specs Ash I feel that U-Turn takes this too far because now are you not only playing with a premier threats but also providing all the other broken ass cleaners and wallbreakers with one of the most fantastic pivots in the game. While Volt-Turn may have struggled in ORAS because of premier Volt Switchers having to play around some Ground-types really well, Tapu Koko just comes out here and gets its free pivot without giving a damn about your immunities. This trait on its own is my biggest claim to Koko derserving S. This completely warps matches around because unless your that one player who runs Protect on every damn mon like its doubles, then Koko be giving you a hella hard time bringing in all these mons for free. Now, there is no denying that there aren't a few solid Koko answers and that U-Turn literally solves all of its problems. Despite Zygarde and Lando being 4x weak to Hidden Power Ice on any set that ain't specs or the uncommon Life Orb they at least threaten Koko to not mindlessly click Tbolt but in general it has pretty free reign. I think Koko is the absolute definition of control because of its ability to the opposing player abide to all of its possibilities so much more than the other mons which is why I wholeheartedly. The ability to force switches with its typing as well as the best U-Turn in the metagame to capitalize on said switches is what gives Koko the defining edge in a lot of matchups.

I COMPLETLY disagree with Koko rising to S Rank. While it does its job as a breaker and VolTurn pivot pretty damn well, it doesn’t provide too much utility aside that and it lacks any kind of defensive presence, and in my opinion, a S Rank worthy mon should be able to perform the last mentioned role too, which Koko totally fails at. Koko is an overall great mon, but not as the levels of another Pokemon as Landorus-Therian and Tpex.

 

[robofiend]

Usually would not keep a one-liner like this, but I feel like the response to this is relevant to discussion and instead of deleting I will just publicly say to people to remember the rules, don't post one-liners, etc.

ANYWAY, the answer to your question is no, they don't (or at least shouldn't). I'm not sure why those calcs have 192+ in all honesty as SDef is clearly the most common and best spread in my eyes. Ash Greninja, Blacephalon, and a few others are common enough to warrant SDef Toxapex easily being the standard. We should keep this in mind for future posts!

I've seen more +Def Toxapex lately, as Specs/Scarf locked Ash Greninja/Blacephalon can't break the spread listed above (minus Dark Pulse, which is scary). I see it used more as something that swaps in, takes a hit to scout the move they'll be locked into, and then swaps out to something better after the fact. Works well with AV Bulu and other mixed walls.

252 SpA Blacephalon Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 64 SpD Toxapex: 103-123 (33.8 - 40.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 64 SpD Toxapex: 106-126 (34.8 - 41.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 64 SpD Toxapex: 156-184 (51.3 - 60.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Stealth Rock there just because.

+Def Toxapex is really just there to help with things like Scarf Kartana, M-Lopunny, Megazard-X (to Haze and scout EQ), and AV Tapu Bulu. I don't personally run +Def Toxapex ever, but I have seen it quite a bit having used all of these Pokemon and noticed the difference between Toxapex sets.

Calcs

+1 252+ Atk Charizard-Mega-X Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Toxapex: 200-236 (65.7 - 77.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Charizard-Mega-X Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Toxapex: 248-294 (81.5 - 96.7%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Kartana Psycho Cut vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Toxapex: 110-130 (36.1 - 42.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Kartana Psycho Cut vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Toxapex: 136-162 (44.7 - 53.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Lopunny-Mega Return vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Toxapex: 120-142 (39.4 - 46.7%) -- 35.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 Atk Lopunny-Mega Return vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Toxapex: 178-211 (58.5 - 69.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Lopunny-Mega Return vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Toxapex: 96-114 (31.5 - 37.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Tapu Bulu Horn Leech vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Toxapex in Grassy Terrain: 114-135 (37.5 - 44.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Grassy Terrain recovery
252+ Atk Tapu Bulu Horn Leech vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Toxapex in Grassy Terrain: 141-166 (46.3 - 54.6%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Grassy Terrain recovery

 

[Squawkerz]

I COMPLETLY disagree with Koko rising to S Rank. While it does its job as a breaker and VolTurn pivot pretty damn well, it doesn’t provide too much utility aside that and it lacks any kind of defensive presence, and in my opinion, a S Rank worthy mon should be able to perform the last mentioned role too, which Koko totally fails at. Koko is an overall great mon, but not as the levels of another Pokemon as Landorus-Therian and Tpex.

sorry for a short post, but why would an offensive pokemon need to have a defensive presence? That seems counter-intuitive. I don't think I've ever seen a Greninja or Blacephalon invest heavily in bulk, much less be used effectively. Also why would you say that every S-Rank pokemon needs to have a defensive role, when Naganadel was S-Rank before it was banned?

about Koko itself, I agree with the rise. And to not fill this thread with even more pointless repetition, just look at Take Azelfie's post above, it pretty much has all the information that I agree with.

 

[Finchinator]

I've seen more +Def Toxapex lately, as Specs/Scarf locked Ash Greninja/Blacephalon can't break the spread listed above (minus Dark Pulse, which is scary). I see it used more as something that swaps in, takes a hit to scout the move they'll be locked into, and then swaps out to something better after the fact. Works well with AV Bulu and other mixed walls.

252 SpA Blacephalon Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 64 SpD Toxapex: 103-123 (33.8 - 40.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 64 SpD Toxapex: 106-126 (34.8 - 41.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 64 SpD Toxapex: 156-184 (51.3 - 60.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Stealth Rock there just because.

+Def Toxapex is really just there to help with things like Scarf Kartana, M-Lopunny, Megazard-X (to Haze and scout EQ), and AV Tapu Bulu. I don't personally run +Def Toxapex ever, but I have seen it quite a bit having used all of these Pokemon and noticed the difference between Toxapex sets.

Calcs

+1 252+ Atk Charizard-Mega-X Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Toxapex: 200-236 (65.7 - 77.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Charizard-Mega-X Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Toxapex: 248-294 (81.5 - 96.7%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Kartana Psycho Cut vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Toxapex: 110-130 (36.1 - 42.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Kartana Psycho Cut vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Toxapex: 136-162 (44.7 - 53.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Lopunny-Mega Return vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Toxapex: 120-142 (39.4 - 46.7%) -- 35.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 Atk Lopunny-Mega Return vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Toxapex: 178-211 (58.5 - 69.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Lopunny-Mega Return vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Toxapex: 96-114 (31.5 - 37.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Tapu Bulu Horn Leech vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Toxapex in Grassy Terrain: 114-135 (37.5 - 44.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Grassy Terrain recovery
252+ Atk Tapu Bulu Horn Leech vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Toxapex in Grassy Terrain: 141-166 (46.3 - 54.6%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Grassy Terrain recovery

Really disagree here. I have seen much more SDef Toxapex than anything else -- tbh, I think I have only seen 1-2 Toxapex with heavy PDef investment throughout all of USM and even those are not as heavily invested as you way. Regardless, some of your calcs make little sense to me -- ZardX isn't common, Psycho Cut Kartana???, and Bulu is not meant to be checked by Toxapex. You hardly check Ash Ninja or Blace bc chances of flinch w/ former and the fact that Specs is very relevant w the latter, meaning you'd get 2HKOd, so I think you need to re-asses and perhaps stop idealizing things to fit your narrative.

--

also, highly doubt that Koko will go S. it's nowhere near as prominent as either of the S rank pokemon, but I will gladly include it on the next voting slate if enough people are in favor

 

[Gojiratar]

sorry for a short post, but why would an offensive pokemon need to have a defensive presence? That seems counter-intuitive. I don't think I've ever seen a Greninja or Blacephalon invest heavily in bulk, much less be used effectively. Also why would you say that every S-Rank pokemon needs to have a defensive role, when Naganadel was S-Rank before it was banned?

about Koko itself, I agree with the rise. And to not fill this thread with even more pointless repetition, just look at Take Azelfie's post above, it pretty much has all the information that I agree with.

Sorry if you have misunderstood me, i'm pretty shitty explaining myself. One thing that Koko fails to do is to really meta define OU: When you see the mons at S Rank, you see 2 mons that define the meta itself due to how versatile (in the case of Tpex, the large amount of mons it can check) are there and how hard are to play around: First we have Landorus-Therian, wich can be either Defensive and offensive, forcing you to think if your Pokemon can reliably switch into it or kill; an then we have Toxapex, which it doesn't have the same amount of sets as Lando-T, it can force lots of mental games and mind-lessy switch-into almost every mon of the tier thanks to its great bulk, typing, ability and access to Recover, Scald and Toxic Spikes. And then we have the banned Naganadel, which, when it was allowed, it basically defined Offense and could either run a NP set or a Scarf one,making it a pain to deal with. Koko isn't at the levels of meta define as these 3 bois because it isn'te ad splashable or unpredictable as the mons at the S Rank, therebefore not S Rank worthy.

 

[Take Azelfie]

Sorry if you have misunderstood me, i'm pretty shitty explaining myself. One thing that Koko fails to do is to really meta define OU: When you see the mons at S Rank, you see 2 mons that define the meta itself due to how versatile (in the case of Tpex, the large amount of mons it can check) are there and how hard are to play around: First we have Landorus-Therian, wich can be either Defensive and offensive, forcing you to think if your Pokemon can reliably switch into it or kill; an then we have Toxapex, which it doesn't have the same amount of sets as Lando-T, it can force lots of mental games and mind-lessy switch-into almost every mon of the tier thanks to its great bulk, typing, ability and access to Recover, Scald and Toxic Spikes. And then we have the banned Naganadel, which, when it was allowed, it basically defined Offense and could either run a NP set or a Scarf one,making it a pain to deal with. Koko isn't at the levels of meta define as these 3 bois because it isn'te ad splashable or unpredictable as the mons at the S Rank, therebefore not S Rank worthy.

I would like to say that your last point is contradictory to the rest of the point you are making. Considering Koko to not be unpredictable to a good way to lose your Chansey for example. It may have not revealed its set yet and you send in your Chansey. If its Specs you still have to fear the U-Turn into a set up sweeper that abuses it like I've stated in my post but you are also at risk of either facing Z Wild Charge which would, once again pave a direct way for other special sweepers such as Ash Greninja or you could just be out beat by Taunt Roost which is a much more uncommon set then the previously mention but still derserved a bonus mention. That is three different ways Koko has getting around 1 mon and 3 different sets for calling it unpredictable is a huge understatement and calling it not splashable is no different especially since its faster than pre battle bond Greninja which is a huge boon for it. It's very splashable in the sense that if you are building anything remotely offensive or slow Koko is definately high up on that list of Pokemon you would want to consider for your team because of its ability to bring back momentum, break through CelesPex cores, revenge kill a plethora of sweepers etc. Also not calling it splashable is again not true in any VoltTurn archetypes where about 90% of the time you are going to bring Koko on those sorts of teams.

I COMPLETLY disagree with Koko rising to S Rank. While it does its job as a breaker and VolTurn pivot pretty damn well, it doesn’t provide too much utility aside that and it lacks any kind of defensive presence, and in my opinion, a S Rank worthy mon should be able to perform the last mentioned role too, which Koko totally fails at. Koko is an overall great mon, but not as the levels of another Pokemon as Landorus-Therian and Tpex.

I'll also counter act the defensive point and utility point as well. While we all know Koko is the defensive metabeast that the two S rank mons are it shouldn't be slept not slept on. First off Koko's Fairy-typing is an instant + because of the Dragon immunity allowing it to absorb any Dragon Z moves being thown at there by maybe Garchomp, Zygarde, and Dragonite which gives it good synergy with Pokemon like Lando who are often targeted by these types of the moves. And you should really analyze Koko a bit more before saying it has no utility. When a huge focus on the metagame is shifted on the terrains and Koko being one of them saying that it has no utility is an absolute joke. Being able to change the terrain while, usually isn't the most notable things it sure does have an impact and depriving opposing teams off there terrains is a huge boon. Not only do you provide yourself with a sleep immunity while its active (and I will mention this probably why stuff like Amoonguss isn't OU anymore and sleep is rarely used thus making Koko defining in this aspect) and removing the Ground-type damage reduction from a Bulu user or depriving Lele of its boosted Psychics are all things to keep in mind. Now that last highlighted statement is just hypocritical since Naganadel barely provided any defensive bonuses to your team and was still bbanned so being more than just bulky should really be considered when you are thinking about mons that should be S Rank.

 

[LordHelix]

I dont like to be mean but have you heard of paragraphs? (Ik my punctuation isnt much better but still, urs is unreadable)

also so this isnt a useless one-liner i can see koko being S ranked for how much pressure it can put on u with its many sets and unpredictability, and for how easy it can sweep u, ik that could be said to ash gren and magearna too but koko is more splashable imo since decent defensive typing for such an offensive mon, 130 base speed right off the bat, the fact electric is an amazing stab once ground types is gone, tangrowth usage being MUCH less also really helps it abusing u-turn and nuking with its specs attacks

But im still not sure about it, theres many weaknesses that people have already mentioned, not being as splashable as the s ranks, not meta defining, its easily among the best A+ mon of course, but its not as defining as lando and pex imo

 

[BeardyBennett]

A+ ---> S

Okay hear me out. Koko is by far the most annoying and broken mon currently allowed. I won't go into too much on what it does because we already know why its good. It Tbolt's are like tossing trucks around and its not a very one dimensional mon and it has all the moves it would ever needs. You got the powerful Dazzling Gleam and Grass Knot + whatever Hidden Power your heart could desire. And because it has other utility moves such as Taunt, Roost, and Wild Charge that further enhances its ability to fit whatever niche you want. Now I'm not here to circlejerk wouldever we already know but I'm here to talk about why its one of the most broken Pokemon I have ever seen. One of the biggest problems of it actually lie in U-Turn. Koko comes in and you are either faced with the hardest hitting Thunderbolt you have even seen or be baited out into a potentially more dangerous mon. And if you aren't facing Specs, it can play the control match up MUCH more than it would with Specs. You may go into your Tangrowth but now you let in Hawlucha, Heatran, or Kyurem Black. While Specs itself is probably one of the most powerful cleaners in the game next to Specs Ash I feel that U-Turn takes this too far because now are you not only playing with a premier threats but also providing all the other broken ass cleaners and wallbreakers with one of the most fantastic pivots in the game. While Volt-Turn may have struggled in ORAS because of premier Volt Switchers having to play around some Ground-types really well, Tapu Koko just comes out here and gets its free pivot without giving a damn about your immunities. This trait on its own is my biggest claim to Koko derserving S. This completely warps matches around because unless your that one player who runs Protect on every damn mon like its doubles, then Koko be giving you a hella hard time bringing in all these mons for free. Now, there is no denying that there aren't a few solid Koko answers and that U-Turn literally solves all of its problems. Despite Zygarde and Lando being 4x weak to Hidden Power Ice on any set that ain't specs or the uncommon Life Orb they at least threaten Koko to not mindlessly click Tbolt but in general it has pretty free reign. I think Koko is the absolute definition of control because of its ability to the opposing player abide to all of its possibilities so much more than the other mons which is why I wholeheartedly. The ability to force switches with its typing as well as the best U-Turn in the metagame to capitalize on said switches is what gives Koko the defining edge in a lot of matchups.

You lost me at "the powerful Dazzling Gleam". But in all seriousness, I love Koko as much as the next guy. However, Koko is not really meta-defining. After all, Toxapex walls a massive chunk of the meta and is a defining feature of bulk cores. Lando-T can be slotted onto any team for any number of uses ranging from hazards, to bulk, to breaking, to being a win-con. It does all of these jobs well and can fulfill multiple with just one set with ease.

Koko meanwhile is, well, Koko. It is a great offensive threat and can operate in a couple different ways. But to be S, it would have to basically be the undisputed best offensive Mon in the tier, as its bread-and-butter is offense. Is it? Certainly a case can be made, but the answer isn't an easy, set-in-stone, yes. Blacephalon and Kartana could certainly make just as much of a case among other mons. Add to it, Koko doesn't have longevity as being the best offensive Mon. Toxapex was the "best" defensive mon for a long time before getting the bump to S. Meanwhile, at times the "best" offensive Mon has been Lele, Greninja (both Ash and Protean), Lando-T, Magearna, Kartana, M-Diancie, etc. And just imagine how shaky that claim will be when inevitably we cycle back to higher usage of Tangrowth and M-Venu.

Long story short, I strongly disagree with a Koko rise to S. It isn't as defining as our current S mons. And, being an offensive Mon, its rise to S would claim it as the undisputed best offensive Mon in the tier. And to that, I can assure you, there is plenty of dispute.

 

[viol and bass]

You lost me at "the powerful Dazzling Gleam". But in all seriousness, I love Koko as much as the next guy. However, Koko is not really meta-defining. After all, Toxapex walls a massive chunk of the meta and is a defining feature of bulk cores. Lando-T can be slotted onto any team for any number of uses ranging from hazards, to bulk, to breaking, to being a win-con. It does all of these jobs well and can fulfill multiple with just one set with ease.

Koko meanwhile is, well, Koko. It is a great offensive threat and can operate in a couple different ways. But to be S, it would have to basically be the undisputed best offensive Mon in the tier, as its bread-and-butter is offense. Is it? Certainly a case can be made, but the answer isn't an easy, set-in-stone, yes. Blacephalon and Kartana could certainly make just as much of a case among other mons. Add to it, Koko doesn't have longevity as being the best offensive Mon. Toxapex was the "best" defensive mon for a long time before getting the bump to S. Meanwhile, at times the "best" offensive Mon has been Lele, Greninja (both Ash and Protean), Lando-T, Magearna, Kartana, M-Diancie, etc. And just imagine how shaky that claim will be when inevitably we cycle back to higher usage of Tangrowth and M-Venu.

Long story short, I strongly disagree with a Koko rise to S. It isn't as defining as our current S mons. And, being an offensive Mon, its rise to S would claim it as the undisputed best offensive Mon in the tier. And to that, I can assure you, there is plenty of dispute.

I would argue that Koko is in fact a meta-defining mon. It's been near the top of the metagame as other mons have waxed and waned for the entirety of this generation. As the metagame has evolved, it's taken on a huge variety of potent sets to suit the metagame it finds itself in.

But I would argue that you're looking at Koko the wrong way. Yes, it's an offensive mon. Yes, its sets have varying checks. Yes, it's frail and offers little defensive utility. But you can't look past its value as a support mon, which is a huge part of the reason that I think Koko's potentially S-worthy. Here's what I mean. Electric Terrain offers valuable support for Koko's team. As the weakest example, as a common meta condition for this entire gen, it's completely invalidated all formerly common sleep users. Electric Terrain supports sweepers like Hawlucha (note how running Koko alongside Lucha is viewed as a small opportunity cost given Koko's value on any offensive team), and it aids wallbreakers in breaking Electric-weak checks (Such as Thunder Punch Mega Medicham and Mawile). Koko is also basically unrivaled as an offensive pivot, using U-turn or Volt Switch to give setup opportunities to its teammates (such as pivoting to Hawlucha on a Tangrowth switch-in as mentioned above).

You can't discount the support element of Koko's utility. It's a potent offensive mon, but it's also an amazing offensive pivot and it does support its team. I think when you combine those aspects, you might have an S-rank mon.

 

[Jordy]

I don't think that Tapu Koko is S-rank worthy, it surely has a lot of positive qualities but calling it metadefining is just wrong as it's not, its versatility in sets doesnt make it metadefining, while yes it has a useful amount of utility it rarely uses those utility moves, mostly trading them for a Choice Specs or Calm Mind. Also I'd like to say that Ash Gren is arguably better then Tapu Koko as an all around Pokemon rn and it too isn't worthy of S-rank.

 

[BeardyBennett]

I would argue that Koko is in fact a meta-defining mon. It's been near the top of the metagame as other mons have waxed and waned for the entirety of this generation.

And that is why it is in A+, while Lando and Pex are S.

 

[power]

Mega Latios: B --> B-

Mega Latios was a perfect Tyranitar and Magearna lure at first however now it's known to carry Earthquake in its arsenal, thus making it easier for opponents to pivot around it since they know the possibility of getting lured and hit by an Earthquake, however I don't think its lure value as a whole is gone since HP Fire instead of Roost/Draco can be very useful to trick opponents into thinking they have succesfully played around ur lure, for example, they have Tyranitar and expect u to use Earthquake on Tyranitar, most of the time they will then switch into Mega Scizor or Ferrothorn (if they have those) to take the EQ and effeciently deal with Mega Latios, however when they come in on Earthquake they will be in range of HP Fire and bop u lured other mons.

I feel obligated to weigh in on this one, as I feel that Mega Latios is closer to a rise than it is to a drop. I think it's far better than other mons in B, such as Alomomola or Mega Latias. While Mega Latios definitely ended up being a great Tyranitar lure for Pokemon such as Blacephalon in early USUM, that was a happy coincidence - Mega Latios was already an incredibly underrated threat in late SM. The point about Mega Latios being known and thus fails because people will simply pivot into Mega Scizor doesnt really hold because Mega Latios was always intended to be used with Magnezone support to trap the three Pokemon actually capable of taking on Mega Latios - Ferrothorn, Mega Scizor, and Celesteela. AV Bulu simply cannot break through Mega Latios's typing, bulk, and reliable recovery, so it gets outstalled, and everything else just gets smashed by Mega Latios's power and coverage. I definitely do not think this mon needs to drop, as its a terror to switch into in the current state of the meta and it is a breaker that also sports good bulk and typing, not a dedicated lure as people have made it out to be.

I think MLatios is far better than the rest of B, which has niche mons like Alo and Reuniclus, pokemon like Garchomp and Kingdra and both Latias - none of these Pokemon can crack open the whole metagame the way Mlatios + zone can.

I'm therefore nomming

Mega Latios: B --> B+

 

[AK THE LEGEND]

I COMPLETLY disagree with Koko rising to S Rank. While it does its job as a breaker and VolTurn pivot pretty damn well, it doesn’t provide too much utility aside that and it lacks any kind of defensive presence, and in my opinion, a S Rank worthy mon should be able to perform the last mentioned role too, which Koko totally fails at. Koko is an overall great mon, but not as the levels of another Pokemon as Landorus-Therian and Tpex.

how can you say koko has no utility worth when he literally makes Hawlucha viable on his own with voltturn and electric terrain (hence utility).
As for its rise to S rank, im not so sure. It does define the meta game in one simple way. You CANT have NO electric immune mons o ur team. IDK about previous gens (since i have never played them), but if the other team has a koko and u have no ground/V-absorb mons, then its already gg.
And before u say, well all teams have ground type mons long before Koko, would it really be necessary to carry at all times an electric immune mon if koko did not exist? I doubt it.

On the other hand, what has really changed since USUM for him to rise? Not much if anything at all.

 

[comma]

I don't think koko should be rising anytime soon but it is not as one dimensional as some of y'all are making it out to be. It has great speed, makes a fantastic wallbreaker, has great utility moves in taunt, roost and defog, can set up screens for ho, u-turns and volt switches out on it's checks to bring in other wallbreakers and provides electric terrain to assist the likes of kyurem, medicham, nature power diance and hawlucha.

Landorus is the premier physical tank of the tier, has one of the best movepools in the game, one of the best wallbreakers/stallbreakers, the best rocker and arguably the best defogger and scarfer. Also, toxapex is the world's fattest mon, who for some reason also has a good defensive typing, recover, regenerator, scald, knock off toxic spikes and haze and is extremely hard to kill, walls half the meta and punishes almost everything that switches in.

Mega Venusaur is bad

 

[Colonel M]

I heavily disagree with Tapu Koko's nomination to S Rank. Tapu Koko is a good Pokemon, but it lacks a lot of respectable qualities that make it an S Rank Pokemon. In offensive prowess it's heavily reliant on its ability to set up Electric Terrain. While some may not see that as a bad thing as it naturally sets it up, it is a problem when something such as Assault Vest Tapu Bulu can switch into Tapu Koko, remove the Electric Terrain, and basically get a free Nature's Madness or a Grass-type STAB (or worse, if you try to throw Heatran in - Superpower). A lot of the non-Choice Specs sets lack a real offensive punch and Koko is heavily reliant on having the right Hidden Power to keep some of its more dangerous foes away. It's a great pivot, but that's about it. It has a hard time cleaning up lategame unless some of its problematic Pokemon are taken care of first, and sets like Specs really rely on selecting the correct move or else getting a dangerous Ground-type like Zygarde or Landorus-T in for free.

Furthermore, these statements:

Okay hear me out. Koko is by far the most annoying and broken mon currently allowed. I won't go into too much on what it does because we already know why its good. It Tbolt's are like tossing trucks around and its not a very one dimensional mon and it has all the moves it would ever needs. You got the powerful Dazzling Gleam and Grass Knot + whatever Hidden Power your heart could desire. And because it has other utility moves such as Taunt, Roost, and Wild Charge that further enhances its ability to fit whatever niche you want.

Koko is far from broken. Though a lot of teams are structured with problems to Tapu Koko, they do often have ways to manage it or will rely on worst-case scenarios to knock it out. There are always alternatives such as Choice Scarf Pokemon that usually can revenge it without too many issues (Landorus-T, Kartana to name a couple) and some people have opted to sacrifice using Choice sets for more utility-like sets such as Shuca Tapu Koko, which has significantly lower power in comparison to Specs.

"powerful Dazzling Gleam" isn't really that powerful when coming off of base 95 Special Attack, a stat that even Infernape has a lead on for chrissakes, and Grass Knot is not used as often because Koko is quite strapped for moves (Specs like T-Bolt / HP Fire / Gleam / Volt Switch, Shuca like having T-Bolt / HP Ice / U-turn or Volt Switch / Taunt or Roost, usually Roost). Even then Grass Knot doesn't really threaten some of the Ground-types like Gastrodon anyway. I know someone might come in and say something about Zygarde having rather low Attack but still being very good, but a lot of that has to do with how spammable STAB Thousand Arrows is.

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Also will echo what sedertz said RE: Mega Latios. Though there are some Pokemon that are quite a headache for it, I don't see what really made Mega Latios bad outside of being a little more predictable at worst. A lot of other Latios sets are bad where it's either Z Move or Scarf in a desperate attempt. At least Mega Latios has a somewhat threatening offensive presence with some nice defensive qualities that some teams often beg to have (even if it is vulnerable to Toxic and Corkscrew Crash having a Heatran switch-in is solid right now). I even thought of this mon borderline B+ at the moment.

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One last nom, controversial perhaps, but I think it can be argued:

B -> B+

I confess I haven't used Gliscor a ton this generation, but whenever I see matches with this Pokemon as of recent it really carries its weight. With the right moveset and EV configuration it can take on a lot of annoying defensive Pokemon such as Heatran and Toxapex while still being rather annoying for Choice Scarf Landorus-T and Choice Band Zygarde to stay in and keep the pressure on Gliscor. As a defensive Pokemon this mon is really solid, and being immune to normal methods of wearing down walls such as Toxic and, to a lesser extent, Toxic Spikes makes this thing a lot nastier to face. By no means an amazing Pokemon, but I think it being incorporated in more balanced and bulkier teams warrants a rise to B+ to acknowledge that it's being used a bit more consistently than previously.

 

[LORD HELIX 65]

Nihilego: C+ to C/C-

This mon is.... absolutely terrible right now. It's completely outclassed as a toxic spikes absorber by Mega-Venusaur and Toxapex. It's outclassed as an attacker in both types, being outclassed by Tyranitar, Mega-Tyranitar, and hell, even Terrakion by rock types, and Gengar, Scolipede and Mega Venusaur by poison type. Why would you ever use it in a metagame infested with Celesteela, Landorus, Mega-Scizor, Ash Greninja, and Toxapex?? I know it can run thunderbolt but it simply doesn't do enough to its many, many counters. It's terrible defense means you shouldn't expect it to take many, if any physical hits at all. While Getting both Stealth rocks and Toxic spikes is a nice niche, fitting Hazard removal is easier than ever nowadays, with popular pokemon like Landorus and Gliscor now having ways to remove hazards. It's excellent special bulk is hurt by it's weaknesses to common types like water, steel, and especially ground, which it is 4x weak to. It gets completely destroyed by Most steel types too, not having the moves to deal good enough damage to many of them. Examples of these Steel types are Magnezone, Heatran, Stakataka, Jirachi, and definitely Mega Scizor. It's scarf set can be appealing due to fast hazard setting, which is admittedly nice, but isn't nearly enough to justify being useful in OU, and definitely needs a drop.

 

[Xxxxtentacion]

I’m going to echo the nomination of Koko to S. While I do not believe it’s quite on the same level as Lando and Pex, I believe it’s head and shoulders better than everything A+. This mainly comes down to it’s ability to pivot basically for free against all of its common switch ins. The fast pivot not only gives you free chip damage, but in conjunction with the threat of a boosted Thunderbolt, it puts the opponent in situations where they’re immediate on the defensive unless they have checks that can stomach either attack.

Bulky grasses such as Bulu and Tangrowth have been cited in posts like Colonel M’s for their ability to capitalize on Koko’s presence and shift the momentum away from the Koko player but U-Turn and Volt Switch typically turn these match ups on their head since Koko is typically paired with a pokemon that can immediately force these pokemon out, such as Hawlucha. Ferrothorn is forced out by a High Jump Kick, Tangrowth is set up on, and Bulu doesn’t like taking an Acrobatics, even if it is more often then not unboosted - it has a 10.9% chance of 2HKOing even with an item. Most, if not all builds have a Lando-T or other ground type to absorb U-Turn and Volt Switch but most of these switch ins don’t appreciate taking a Hidden Power Ice or Dazzling Gleam from a Specs set. Even then, like with Hawlucha, other partners emerge that can take advantage of a free U-Turn like Kyurem-B and KO the grounds that wall it.

It’s natural speed poses a lot of problems for offense and balance teams because they have to run pokemon such as Tangrowth and Bulu to check it, and once again, that gives Hawlucha opportunities to switch in and it only ends up exacerbating the weakness to speedy builds. Many common scarfers can revenge kill Koko because of it’s low bulk, but it still is usually able to at least weaken more conventional switch ins beforehand. Stall has a bit of an easier time, but Specs Koko does a ton to many common members outside of Chansey and Quagsire.

A lot of my argument has been focused around Choice Specs which I believe is far and away its best set, there are many other viable options that I’ve run that can screw over would be checks. I’ve run a physical set with Flyinium Z to screw over grass mons like Bulu and Tangrowth. CM Fairium Z can bust through bulky grounds - most notably Landorus, and Z Wild Charge remains a nice stallbreaker to wreck Chansey and certain special sponges. Koko can tailor itself to pick it’s own checks to a degree, and while many of its sets are hampered by a less than ideal Special Attack stat, it still finds ways to either soften up the opposing team or get in top metagame threats in with very little cost. Sure it can’t do everything, but it’s better than pretty much all of A+ support wise.