Resource USUM OU ULTRA Viability Ranking Thread

[LordHelix]

Yea i agree its overrated too since the beginning but what changed for it to drop?? Mimikyu was always piss-weak ever since it was introduced like darkress said literally right above u, so u cant use the argument "its weak and walled by steels/pex lol" cause it always was

If u want to nom a mon to drop u state what changed in the meta that made mimikyu worse or harder to use ( new defog users lessening the pressure of hazards hurting mimi, ho not as effective as it was so mimikyu and ho as a whole is used less, a specific mon that walls it became more common..etc) not reiterate stuff we already know abt the mon

Its pretty funny seeing this considering thats what exactly the kind of stuff Finch tells people not to do when doing noms and yet he did the same thing with his badly reasoned nom of mimikyu dropping out of personal bias

 

[Of Moose & Men]

Yea i agree its overrated too since the beginning but what changed for it to drop?? Mimikyu was always piss-weak ever since it was introduced like darkress said literally right above u, so u cant use the argument "its weak and walled by steels/pex lol" cause it always was

If u want to nom a mon to drop u state what changed in the meta that made mimikyu worse or harder to use ( new defog users lessening the pressure of hazards hurting mimi, ho not as effective as it was so mimikyu and ho as a whole is used less, a specific mon that walls it became more common..etc) not reiterate stuff we already know abt the mon

Its pretty funny seeing this considering thats what exactly the kind of stuff Finch tells people not to do when doing noms and yet he did the same thing with his badly reasoned nom of mimikyu dropping out of personal bias

Right, do as I say, not as I do.

Anyways, I'd like to back away from the Mimikyu talk because it basically is a "it's bad because I say it is" fest. Dakress said what needed to be said. HO and webs aren't in an amazing spot right now, and that's where Mimi thrived, it should drop.

I want to talk about mVenusaur.

I said this about a month ago, and asked why it was A- to begin with, and got nothing more than a very snarky and sarcastic "it walls one Mon lol" in its defense. With koko-lucha literally everywhere, mPinsir, and breakers in general (many of which are in the A's), I don't really understand why it's A-. Sure, it can come in on Pex and absorb TSpikes, sure it can take hits from AshNinja, I just don't see how that has kept it A- for this long. I'm still willing to budge on it, as I don't see why it's A- to begin with, I would just like to know what it is I'm apparently not seeing.

 

[Flame from Heaven]

Yea i agree its overrated too since the beginning but what changed for it to drop?? Mimikyu was always piss-weak ever since it was introduced like darkress said literally right above u, so u cant use the argument "its weak and walled by steels/pex lol" cause it always was

If u want to nom a mon to drop u state what changed in the meta that made mimikyu worse or harder to use ( new defog users lessening the pressure of hazards hurting mimi, ho not as effective as it was so mimikyu and ho as a whole is used less, a specific mon that walls it became more common..etc) not reiterate stuff we already know abt the mon

Its pretty funny seeing this considering thats what exactly the kind of stuff Finch tells people not to do when doing noms and yet he did the same thing with his badly reasoned nom of mimikyu dropping out of personal bias

You can also nominate a Pokémon down if you feel it is overrated in its current rank. Finchinators points were perfectly valid as Mimikyu standing next to actually consistent sweepers such as stakataka and victini is just not a accurate representation. If you look at the B- rank, they are niche but most of them can actually pose a legitimate threat to a lot of teams and/or have some usage on serious teams. Mimikyu honeslty does not pose a threat to a lot of teams with defensive Landorus being so popular and faster pokemon that can easily live a +2 shadow sneak. I don’t see why you feel the need to attack him when it was completely unnessecary and did nothing to strengthen your argument.

 

[Andy6005]

I personally think that Tapu Lele should be in A+ tier. Tapu Lele is extremely offensive with is base 130 Sp Atk and the added effects of Psychic Terain and STAB add up to some serious damage. Also, it has a very versatile movepool with moves such as psychic, psyshock, focus blast, moon blast, thunderbolt, HP fire and ice , etc. Furthermore, it has arguably the best terain effect. The ability to negate priority moves entirely is nothing short of strong. This allows to switch in on fake outs from M lopunny and M medicham, water shuttles from Ash Greninja, other priority moves such as shadow sneak and Mach punch, and completely shut down M Scizor. All these reason make me conclude that Tapu Lele deserves a spot on the A+ tier.

 

[paoisd]

I'm gonna make a nom that might be controversial but here it is

Magearna A+ back up to S
Ok so this thing is an absolute menace right now. I think it should mostly move up for it's av set but I can definitely see it's shift gear set going up to S as well. This pivots on so many things with the av set like greninja, most kyurem black, tapu lele etc. It also keeps momentum with volt switch and has great coverage. Everybody knows what this thing does as it is one of the most effective pivots in the entire tier. Shift gear is also a great set that I personally think is S worthy as well because it fits so well on all offenses from straight up HO to veil to bulky offense. It has so many different moves it can run with shift gear that makes it a super prevelant sweeper capable of stealing many games. It's bulk also allows it to set up on many things even if they hit super effectively.



Jirachi up to B from B-
This has seen pretty good usage in spl and has been getting more usage on the ladder lately and I can definitely see why. It has a great typing and really nice bulk which allows it to check lele very well and even stuff like magearna sometimes. Basically it can do the same thing that it has always done in other gens but with rising threats and archetypes that it can check or fit well on it just got better. Thunder wave is absolutely huge as it can allow you to get things like greninja or especially kartana on the switch making them pretty useless for the rest of the game. One thing that I don't see being used enough on the defensive sets is running enough speed to outspeed timid heatran so you can u turn out of it which is pretty huge imo. Not to mention Jirachi has the scarf set that still works, it is a wish passer, a rocker, and it has iron head flinches. It also does have really good coverage which can kind of allow it to pick it's checks but not really because it has a lot of moves it wants already. Jirachi also gives healing wish which only two other viable pokemon get. In the spl match I think btb vs p2 you saw Jirachi just switched in and kept u turning and trapping the opponent in the volt turn vortex which is really big so I think this as well as some of it's checks like gengar dropping and some of the things it checks like LeLe rising is really big for it.


Mamoswine up to B from B-
This also has seen pretty decent usage in spl and I can definitely see why. It is a very potent breaker with amazing coverage, ice shard, stealth rock, knock off, and just really hard hits. Ground+ice with an attack as high as Mamoswine's is really good and helps against a lot of things like Jirachi, Landorus, Zygarde, Magearna, Heatran etc. I don't think much has really changed for this mon to rise but I think it was underrated to begin with in B-. My personal favorite set is sub+life orb with the standard earthquake icicle crash and ice shard. Ice shard is huge for things like zygarde, scarf lando, weakened kartana, hawlucha, pinsir, etc. This is just one of the most threatening wallbreakers in my eyes and I think it should definitely move up.



Gliscor up to A-
Ok this one is kind of crazy and might seem like a stretch to some people, but I think gliscor is due for a rise. Defog really helped this thing so damn much. Again I don't think that much has changed for this (except for Jirachi rising up), but it was kind of underrated to begin with in my opinion. Being a reliable check to Heatran is ridiculously good because there is only like 2 defensive checks to Heatran. Only taking neutral damage from rocks while avoiding spikes and t spikes is amazing for a defogger and the last move option that it gets is huge as taunt can get catch a bunch of stuff off guard and prevent set up, toxic is really nice for wearing things down, ice fang is super strong against lando and zygarde while u turn is great for momentum. I think this is one of the most consistent defoggers right now (better than rotom) and it's ranking should reflect that.

The following nominations I want to echo as I agree with them but I feel like everything that there is to say about them has been said already.
Mega mane to B-
Zapdos to A
Hawlucha up to A
Blacephalon stays

 

[BBallHunter]

I support a Mamoswine rise from B- to B. Aside from the amazing ice/ground coverage which hits a lot of relevant pokemon super effectively (Heatran, Magerana, Toxapex, Zygarde, Lando-T, Magnezone or Tapu Bulu for example) in the tier, I'd also like to adress some current meta-trends.

Hawlucha just got a rise and adamt LO Mamo does a decent amount with Ice Shard and stops Hawlucha's sweep with prior damage.

252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. +1 104 HP / 0 Def Hawlucha: 159-190 (49.2 - 58.8%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO

Also, people have discussed a Zapdos rise and Mamo kills it after rocks.

252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Icicle Crash vs. 248 HP / 240+ Def Zapdos: 322-382 (84 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Tyranitar, Heatran, defensive Lando-T or Tapu Koko are also all very popular pokemon rigt now that Mamo can take advantage of.

It still struggles against Celeseela, Ferro and fast pokemon, but ironically, defensive Zapdos is a good partner for it, covering Mamo's grass, fighting and steel weaknesses, while also not only smacking Celesteela, Ferrothorn or M-Scizor, but also paralyzing faster physical threads Mamo then can outspeed and kill.

 

[Colonel M]

B+ => A-

Yeah, I'll start the nomination. I know the Magnezone one in hindsight was not so good, but hopefully this one is a bit stronger to consider in terms of metagame trends.

Call me bad for gassing this mon, but I think Mega Medicham really puts the pain on a lot of teams right now. Bulkier teams just don't have very good answers to this thing since fat Psychic-types are not commonly seen and it's proven to be quite intimidating in two matches this week in SPL. I get that it has appeared in only two matches; however, a lot of the teams brought have usually been more balanced (with the exception of ABR using Aurora Veil) I get that it is still a Pokemon in a mediocre Speed tier (let's not joke ourselves and remember base 100 is not the same Speed tier as it was 10 years ago) and there are some situations where Mega Medicham may not always pull its weight, but whenever it comes in against a bulkier Pokemon slower than it it's usually putting a team under a lot of pressure. It will, more often than not, get a kill or leave a team severely dented for other Pokemon such as Kartana to clean up and finish the job.

I find that outside of maybe Gliscor in B+ and maybe Zapdos (still kind of unsure on A- Zapdos, but agreeing that it's still relatively solid) I find that Mega Medicham is pretty comparable to Hoopa-U where they have favorable matchups and can be rather difficult to switch into and at least define Pokemon that are often underprepared or forgotten for, but are usually taken care of by other methods (faster Pokemon for example) and can struggle against more offensive teams as well. I think Mega Medicham fits in a lot better with the A- Pokemon than the B+ Pokemon.

For a few others to agree / disagree with:

A- => B+ - Agree

Tyranitar is still way too common, and much like Gengar it just has moments where it can feast on some teams or just underperforms in other scenarios. In terms of Scarfers a lot of people prefer Kartana, Landorus-T, or Greninja - Kartana covering a more offensive base with Defog for support, Landorus-T having momentum with Defog as support, and Greninja having momentum with coverage moves to help with team flaws. I think this Pokemon fits a lot better with the B+ Pokemon like Mega Alakazam more than with the A- Pokemon like Mega Pinsir.

A => A- - Abstain

C+ => B- - Disagree (I'd even argue blacklist)

This Pokemon is pretty terrible. It relies on pivoting to be even remotely effective, and there are so many better Mega slots to use before it. Nevermind that Tyranitar and Mega Tyranitar just make this Pokemon even worse since Pursuit can be used on the Volt Switch out. Let's also not forget that if you're using Overheat you're leaving yourself very exposed to setup from Pokemon such as Shift Gear Magearna, DD Zygarde, and lets (Mega) Lati@s come in a lot easier. Nothing impressive has really changed for this mon, and I doubt it ever will. Even if you argue it justified over B-, at least the majority of Pokemon in B- can be very useful for a team in comparison to Mega Manectric, which is just a worse Tapu Koko:

- Mega Heracross at least can bully bulkier teams and be an okay check to Band Zygarde. It has Pokemon it can take advantage of, and SD Mega Heracross has a bit of an easier time with Toxapex favoring max SpD.
- Mamoswine can check DD Zygarde, Scarf Landorus-T, can be very menacing with the right support (Knock Off Mamo + Zone is pretty solid), and does fare better with Celesteela sometimes ecking towards SpD to counteract Tapu Lele better.
- Quagsire has a niche on stall.
- Jirachi has been used a fair bit, and it's not been too shabby - it's a solid check to Z Calm Mind Tapu Lele and has proven to be problematic when paired with Landorus-T against Pokemon that could otherwise overcome it such as Mega Latios. Match with Sabella vs psychicmewtwo.
- Can't comment too much on Serperior.
- Stakataka should really go to C+. It was better when Naganadel was in the tier.
- Fini still is an okay Defogger if you need a counter to Ash-Gren.
- Though not used a lot, SD Rockium Terrakion can be challenging for a lot of teams to switch into.
- Skarmory still has a niche on stall too.
- Tornadus-T is pretty good with Z Hurricane and Defog, allowing other Pokemon like Mega Scizor to function with other roles such as SD.
- Victini isn't necessarily as good as it was back when it first got Z-Celebrate, but it still can cause issues for some weakened teams. There's also Scarf / Band shenanigans though those sets are rather below-average IMO.

I see nothing that really makes Mega Manectric stand out. Hell, I'd rather use some of the Pokemon in C+ sooner than Mega Manectric. It's just a Pokemon I literally never understand why people hype when it's so piss weak and the momentum argument is done infinitely better by Tapu Koko as a fast Electric-type that pivots.

(Actually where the hell was the Mega Mane to B- even brought up other than the above post?)

 

[wisdom dog]

I personally think that Tapu Lele should be in A+ tier. Tapu Lele is extremely offensive with is base 130 Sp Atk and the added effects of Psychic Terain and STAB add up to some serious damage. Also, it has a very versatile movepool with moves such as psychic, psyshock, focus blast, moon blast, thunderbolt, HP fire and ice , etc. Furthermore, it has arguably the best terain effect. The ability to negate priority moves entirely is nothing short of strong. This allows to switch in on fake outs from M lopunny and M medicham, water shuttles from Ash Greninja, other priority moves such as shadow sneak and Mach punch, and completely shut down M Scizor. All these reason make me conclude that Tapu Lele deserves a spot on the A+ tier.

Lele has always been able to do these things. This doesnt look like an argument to move up, it looks like an essay on basic points about lele.

Anyways, so this isnt a one-liner, thoughts on some current noms:

Zapdos -> A-: Couldnt agree more, awesome meta pick with the rises of mons such as pinsir and lucha.

Hawlucha -> A: Also agree. Quite splashable as most non-stall teams have a tapu, and very few mons can hard counter it.

Magearna -> S: Strongly disagree. Magearna is a great mon, but i dont think its nearly as dominant as it was when it was in S. When it was in S, it was moreso as a fearsome sweeper that could run a ridiculous amount of sets to sweep, whereas now its seen far more often just with AV. Its an amazing mon, but just not as versatile and splashable as landorus, and doesnt have the incredible defensive capabilities of ThaPex.

 

[LeNorm]

May I propose Gengar from B to B+.

Gengar has a great matchup against a variety of teams, as it has great offensive presence, sits in a good speed tier, and has some useful utility moves, especially taunt. The prominence of a variety of Fairies, and especially the rise of AV Bulu, makes Gengar's STAB sludge wave a very potent attack. In addition, Ghost type moves are as strong as ever, with great neutral coverage, and Gengar gains many opportunities to fire off these moves into foes switching in, given the number of swaps it forces.

Taunt gives Gengar a great matchup against both stall and trick room. Here's a replay of Gengar basically taking out an entire (mediocre) trick room team (turn 6 onwards): https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-685715758.

Cursed body is obviously both a blessing and a curse. On the one hand, levitate gave it a great ground type immunity, but cursed body can have some utility against choice locked mons (https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-685716638 turn 32 sees it take out Ash-Greninja through Greninja being locked into a disabled move) and being grounded is now great for absorbing toxic spikes and gaining grassy terrain recovery.

Gengar does, however, struggle to take on strong steel types, and most sets struggle with Celepex. That said, it can run Gigavolt Havoc (with thunder) to lure and take a huge chunk out of either of them:

252 SpA Gengar Gigavolt Havoc (185 BP) vs. 252 HP / 64 SpD Toxapex: 284-336 (93.4 - 110.5%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO.
252 SpA Gengar Gigavolt Havoc (185 BP) vs. 252 HP / 124 SpD Celesteela: 354-418 (88.9 - 105%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

And here's a replay of Gengar KOing Toxapex with Gigavolt Havoc: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-685742414 - turn 15.

With Taunt, Gengar can deny mons recovery, making it very hard for Celepex to survive against Gigavolt Havoc Gengar. That said, this would require Gengar to give up Focus Blast, thus missing out on valuable coverage and greatly weakening its matchup with Tyranitar, Heatran, and Ferrothorn, all of which will easily KO Gengar if its not running Focus Miss. Here's a replay of Gengar (with the help of some good old focus miss RNG) taking out Tyranitar and Ferrothorn, while running, though not using, Gigavolt Havoc (so no taunt): https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-685723666. That said, no Gengar build I know of can touch AV Mag, so it requires support that can take care of Magearna.

Gengar can also run specs and hit like a real truck, or scarf and function as a decent cleaner/revenge killer (notably this would allow it to take out Koko, which otherwise outspeeds and OHKOs). But the taunt + 3 attacks set is my favourite (especially with Ghostium Z) as it can threaten a variety of builds, and can really help grab momentum.

Gengar has a good combination of power, speed, and utility that allow it to fulfil a variety of roles and means it would sit more comfortably with the B+ mons than the B-rank. To see it chillin' with Alomolola, Mantine and Latias (Mega and Regular), instead of with Rotom-W, Zard-X, Tangrowth (which, by the way, is pretty outclassed these days), and Weavile seems somewhat unjust.

 

[Altervisi]

Lele has always been able to do these things. This doesnt look like an argument to move up, it looks like an essay on basic points about lele.

Anyways, so this isnt a one-liner, thoughts on some current noms:

Zapdos -> A-: Couldnt agree more, awesome meta pick with the rises of mons such as pinsir and lucha.

Hawlucha -> A: Also agree. Quite splashable as most non-stall teams have a tapu, and very few mons can hard counter it.

Magearna -> S: Strongly disagree. Magearna is a great mon, but i dont think its nearly as dominant as it was when it was in S. When it was in S, it was moreso as a fearsome sweeper that could run a ridiculous amount of sets to sweep, whereas now its seen far more often just with AV. Its an amazing mon, but just not as versatile and splashable as landorus, and doesnt have the incredible defensive capabilities of ThaPex.

You can also nominate a Pokémon down if you feel it is overrated in its current rank. Finchinators points were perfectly valid as Mimikyu standing next to actually consistent sweepers such as stakataka and victini is just not a accurate representation. If you look at the B- rank, they are niche but most of them can actually pose a legitimate threat to a lot of teams and/or have some usage on serious teams. Mimikyu honeslty does not pose a threat to a lot of teams with defensive Landorus being so popular and faster pokemon that can easily live a +2 shadow sneak. I don’t see why you feel the need to attack him when it was completely unnessecary and did nothing to strengthen your argument.

Tapu Lele to A+ Agree

I mean just to repeat this post in reverse you can make a nomination if you feel like a Pokemon is underrated by its rank.

Although I disagree with the 'vast movepool' point, (actually to me it seems pretty limited, or at best average) I do think that changes in the meta make psychic terrain particularly great, with so many fast scarfers around, priority is a great option to deal with this so its invaluable to remove this speed control method. You can seriously fuck up an ANinja locked into Water Shuriken obviously. Boosting psychic moves really benefits a variety of mons, I'll highlight MegaZam, it becomes an insane sweeper and cleaner under terrain outspeeding the entire unboosted game, being immune to priority and having 449 SpAtk with STAB and Terrain boosted psychic is insane. Mega Medicham, Victini, Protean Ninja and Volcarona also appreciate Terrain for ThaPex or whatever coverage. I agree with this nom just by the fact that on it's own it can be a scary breaker as well as a decent scarfer but that the terrain provides a variety of team support options and honestly in my opinion is the best terrain right now (seeing as Fini kinda sucks).

(Edit: Wording and clarify nom)

 

[Colonel M]

I'll clean this up in a bit, but would like to remind everyone that feeding the troll and one-liners are grounds for an infraction. Let's not do that and let the moderator take care of the troll please.

This is a verbal warning for everyone. Every one-liner will be met with infractions in the future. There is no excuse.

 

[Finchinator]

cut the shit -- this is not just directed at the last poster or two either, this last page or two has been atrocious. there should be no personal insults/jabs, no thread derailing, and nothing that has any potential to break the posting rules. let's use some common sense if we want to have the VR open to the public in the near future!

 

[Jordy]

The last two pages have been absolute fucking shit so ill be making some noms that make actual sense (crazy wtf omg gone wild)

-> lower (C+/C)
Mimikyu is complete and utter garbage, and not for many reasons that were stated before. The fact that Mimikyu is so pitifully weak is just sad, like actually sad, it's also not sweeping many teams, due to the necessity of a defensive steel-type (Celesteela, Mega Scizor etc.) also, the current usage of defensive Landorus-T is extremely high and Mimikyu is never breaking through that shit unless Landorus-T rocks up on it for whatever reason (?) strong boi, yeah no. I'd also like to mention the competition from Blacephalon that it sees as a spinblocker on HO, which is a lot stronger, faster, and can actually break down shit.

-> C+
I mentioned this in 1 of my previous posts. Mega Heracross is heavily overrated and struggles to keep up with the current metagame, it isnt as consistent as any other B- Pokemon. It sees too much competition for a mega slot and doesn't bring much when using it.

Could you all please consider posting intelligently? Don't post if u dont have a clear enough understanding on the metagame. If u do still post some of these trash noms this will most likely get vr locked anyway, and ur really only wasting time from the mods.

 

[Flame from Heaven]

Terrakion to C+.
Terrakion is completely awful. It’s best set, scarf, is outclassed by Keldeo and Greninja, as well as kartana. Terrakion isn’t the terror to offense the way Keldeo and Kartana are, and Terrakion can’t provide the momentum or spikes that greninja does. SD Rockium Z is also extremly niche compared to Landorus therian or even Garchomp.
Terrakion absolutely hates the fact that defensive lando has insane usage at the moment, as Terrakion basically gives free momentum or entry hazards to it. In general, a lot of balanced teams spammed on the ladder have no trouble with Terrakion. Terrakions main draw was that it could ohko Charti Berry Volcarona. Charti Berry Volcarona is deader than disco rn. There is a reason why Terrakion has very little usage in tournaments as well as in the ladder. Terrakion should go to C+, as it is very outclassed with only some niche roles, as well as the meta being awful for it right now.

 

[LORD HELIX 65]

Terrakion to C+.
Terrakion is completely awful. It’s best set, scarf, is outclassed by Keldeo and Greninja, as well as kartana. Terrakion isn’t the terror to offense the way Keldeo and Kartana are, and Terrakion can’t provide the momentum or spikes that greninja does. SD Rockium Z is also extremly niche compared to Landorus therian or even Garchomp.
Terrakion absolutely hates the fact that defensive lando has insane usage at the moment, as Terrakion basically gives free momentum or entry hazards to it. In general, a lot of balanced teams spammed on the ladder have no trouble with Terrakion. Terrakions main draw was that it could ohko Charti Berry Volcarona. Charti Berry Volcarona is deader than disco rn. There is a reason why Terrakion has very little usage in tournaments as well as in the ladder. Terrakion should go to C+, as it is very outclassed with only some niche roles, as well as the meta being awful for it right now.

You said scarf is outclassed by Greninja, Kartana, and Keldeo?? They are completely different pokemon and 2 of them are special attackers and kartana has a different typing and playstyle. You argument is invalid

 

[MaahirMomtaz12]

Terrakion to C+.
Terrakion is completely awful. It’s best set, scarf, is outclassed by Keldeo and Greninja, as well as kartana. Terrakion isn’t the terror to offense the way Keldeo and Kartana are, and Terrakion can’t provide the momentum or spikes that greninja does. SD Rockium Z is also extremly niche compared to Landorus therian or even Garchomp.
Terrakion absolutely hates the fact that defensive lando has insane usage at the moment, as Terrakion basically gives free momentum or entry hazards to it. In general, a lot of balanced teams spammed on the ladder have no trouble with Terrakion. Terrakions main draw was that it could ohko Charti Berry Volcarona. Charti Berry Volcarona is deader than disco rn. There is a reason why Terrakion has very little usage in tournaments as well as in the ladder. Terrakion should go to C+, as it is very outclassed with only some niche roles, as well as the meta being awful for it right now.

That's a horrible comparison. Terrakion is in no way similar to Greninja and Kartana as the latter two have different purposes. Terrakion is only really comparable to Garchomp

 

[bonkbonkSUPREME]

It still fails to break through the a lot of the top offensive threats like Lando and Mag.Plus If it tries to scarf, band or set up (which it needs to reliably get KOs without being worn down within two turns) it become bait for Ash-Gren’s water suriken.
Water Shuriken (w/ specs) (20 BP) (3 hits) vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Terrakion: 366-438 (112.9 - 135.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
With almost every team in the tier carrying a mon like Pex, Lando, Mag or Gren that hard counters it, it really just doesn’t hold up like it used to.

 

[Empo]

I know it's not the best pokemon as it has some flaws, for instance being not very fast (with 328 speed it ties with lots of mons and it's outpaced by a good chunk of the sweepers) and being pretty frail (not too much but it still it hasn't got lots of def / sdef), but, in my opinion, it can put in a lot of work several times, as it's capable to dismantle balance thanks to its coverage that we all know (or you can check it here if you don't know).

i'll drop some calcs to show you its actual qualities of being a good wallbreaker

calcs

-1 252 Atk Pure Power Medicham-Mega Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus-Therian: 396-468 (124.1 - 146.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Pure Power Medicham-Mega Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 192-226 (48.7 - 57.3%) -- 47.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Pure Power Medicham-Mega High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 313-370 (103.9 - 122.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Pure Power Medicham-Mega High Jump Kick vs. 200 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 313-370 (89.1 - 105.4%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Pure Power Medicham-Mega Zen Headbutt vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Lele in Psychic Terrain: 207-245 (73.6 - 87.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

as i said, i just posted some important calcs that show its effectiveness in the metagame. with the increase of landorus, clefable and magearna, this turns out to be good wallbreaker as it's able, most of the time, to get free kills every turn it comes in (when you face off balance ish teams for instance). pokemon like volturners or uturners help medicham to come in, and it can actually be a problem for fatter teams to deal with this pokemon

some replays:

replays

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-338304
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-339482
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-339966

therefore, with this post i would like medicham to raise from B+ to A-.

 

[MANNAT]

I'm bored af, so I might as well give my thoughts on a lot of current discussion topics that I have opinions about, whether you guys agree with them or not. I agree with the noms for Zapdos and Mega Venusaur to swap ranks because they just make sense in this meta with Zapdos being so good on stall and still a great utility mon on balance and bulky offense alike along with Mega Venusaur being poopy garbage. I also don't really think that Kyu-B should drop because Electrium Z is actually a really good balance breaker with terrain support and can oftentimes just claim one vs offense, but I'm not gonna bother arguing that one because I really want to focus on the two mons I talk about later in this post.

Mega Manectric to B- or higher
Mega Manectric is a super slept on mon and I don't get why it gets so much hate. When examining the structure of teams in the current metagame, they get fucking shredded by Mega Manectric. Tyranitar usage has calmed down a bit now with Blacephalon being fairly uncommon in the current metagame, not even being used once in SPL week 1, not to mention that the momentary wave of Mega Tyranitar usage has subsided. The vast majority of teams nowadays are structured with an electric immunity in conjunction with either AV Magearna, Ferrothorn, Tapu Bulu, or two of the three and consider themselves fine vs electrics because they're fine for dealing with Tapu Koko. All of these mons get roasted by Overheat and the teams they're featured on just get fucking ripped apart by Mega Manectric. If you so please, I can list off an array of SPL replays in which teams are structured in a fashion that Mega Manectric completely tears them apart. Also, a couple things that a lot of people really discount about Mega Manectric is the utility that intimidate provides vs physical attackers like Scarf Kartana and Mega Lopunny that Tapu Koko doesn't really help vs, soft checking them and preventing them from going wild versus your team as well as the fact that its speed tier allows it to just barely edge out Ash Greninja post transformation, being a much more effective check on offensive teams than Tapu Koko. Obviously, Tapu Koko doesn't take up a mega slot and is better at gaining momentum with U-turn along with having better utility and access to Z-moves to have a better matchup vs balanced teams, but that thing's one of the best offensive mons in the tier and I'm asking this thing to be ranked several subranks below it to acknowledge the difference in viability between the two. Ranking this thing in the same subrank as garbage like Volcanion is a damn crime and it needs to be brought up.

Mimikyu to C+
Mimikyu is fucking weak as shit and always has been, but it is still a fantastic Pokemon on HO like webs and people need to stop making bad arguments to drop it. Shit like Toxapex, Lando, Scizor, etc. have all been common for this thing's entire existence. "Defensive Landorus-T is common so this thing is bad" is a poor argument because defensive Lando has been good for basically this entire generation and it being good doesn't indicate a recent shift in viability Calling Mimikyu weak is also a bad argument because its attack stat literally hasn't changed since the start of the gen so that statement has always been true lol. Mimikyu is always going to be viable on HO due to its insanely good ability and offensive typing, so its viability should be directly correlated with the viability of the playstyle itself. Other HO mons like Araquanid, Shuckle, and Dragonite are all chilling in C+, so I think that Mimikyu fits in that rank much better than B- and this actually indicates its place in current meta instead of discussing metagame forces that have been present for months.

 

[Eclipse]

C+ --> B-
Hippowdon is actually a far more annoying threat to deal with on balance than most other threats in the lower ranks. As shown in p2 vs. poek's SPL week 2 game, Hippo is able to deal with powerful threats such as Koko, Lando, Zygarde, Tyranitar, AV Magearna, Mawile and Lopunny. Obviously its passiveness is well known, but a bulky Ground-type with reliable recovery and access to Stealth Rock makes Hippowdon a nice pick on balance teams that deserves far better than to be among the rest of the C ranks.

B --> B-
Not much has really changed to make Latias worse in this meta, it's just that it's generally difficult to justify on most builds. It has one sole niche which is being a scarfer that you would only use over Scarf Latios if Healing Wish is THAT much of a boon for your team. Now don't get me wrong, that is not a bad niche at all as Healing Wish is really good especially with teammates that find themselves easily worn down throughout the match such as Lando, Heatran or Magearna; it's just not such a powerful niche that should allow it to keep a B ranking.

C --> UR
This pokemon is garbage; legitimately, WHAT special attackers are you really taking on with this thing in this meta? Let's look at its matchup against all A ranked special attackers:

• Muk is not a good Ash-Gren answer especially when it just sets up its own Spikes and then takes out Muk with two consecutive Hydros
• Sure, Knocking Off Heatran's Leftovers is nice, but it gets whittled easily and does nothing back to it otherwise while Tran just traps and eliminates Muk.
• A very shaky Koko answer that gets 2HKOed by Specs Tbolt with prior damage, no thank you.
• Greninja; Scarf variants just pivot out of this thing, and Spikes variants use Muk as setup fodder.
• Loses to both Kyurem-B sets; 2HKOed by LO Fusion Bolt, Subzero Slammer knocks this thing out of the park.
• One of its main purposes is as a Lele check, and sure it's okay at doing that; even then, it gets 3HKOed by Specs Moonblast, and okay if you Pursuit trap it, this is what you're doing: 136+ Atk Muk-Alola Pursuit (80 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Lele: 144-169 (51.2 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO - Unless you get the Poison Touch off, trust me this isn't doing as much as you expect it to do.
• If you are using this as your Volcarona check, you HAVE to forgo Fire Punch for Rock Slide, and guess what, you're now setup fodder for Mawile, Kartana, Scizor, Ferrothorn. There are much better Volcarona answers that actually perform well against other mons than this.
• Checks Scarf Blacephalon variants, but gets chunked by Specs Fire Blast; 252 SpA Choice Specs Blacephalon Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 120 SpD Assault Vest Muk-Alola: 178-211 (43 - 51%) -- 98% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
• +2 252 SpA Hoopa-Unbound All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 248 HP / 120 SpD Assault Vest Muk-Alola: 300-353 (72.6 - 85.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock - Get some prior damage and this is no answer
• lol not a Keldeo answer
• Beats Scarf Latios and Z-Surf variants, i guess? Still loses hard to Mega Latios unless you're running Bulu support.

So what we've established is that Muk does not perform well against just about any of the things that it is supposed to check; in addition it is hard walled by Lando, Toxapex, Tyranitar, Zygarde because you are forced to fish for Poison that you're not guaranteed to even get; it gets Ice Punch now for Lando but dropping Fire Punch or Rock Slide means you lose to Steels or Volcarona so x. Drop this thing off the face of the earth, it sucks

Edit:
GMars Today at 11:12 AM

Block rest curse knock pp stalls pex and lures ferro for +6 spread the word

 

[power]

Manectric is awful and absolutely should not rise. This Pokemon by no means benefits from the rise of AV Bulu - Flamethrower does like 40 and Bulu just Horn Leeches it all off. Overheat is super easy to take advantage of with smart pivoting, and doesn't even 2HKO AV Bulu either. It's weak as hell and you can easily play around with even Toxapex. It's absurdly prediction reliant - you can't assume it gets bulu every time when there's a toxapex that also snacks anything from it. Volt Switch only does 48 to Toxapex, so scouting with it is rather safe. Manectric is actually absurdly weak and is not a reasonable pick for teams the way other stuff in B- is like Tornadus-T, Mamoswine, or Quagsire. Pretty much every metagame trend is not in this mons favor like sky-high scarf lando usage, high usage on Assault Vest Magearna which takes a pittance even from Overheat, Lele which also takes like 30 from volt switch and threatens to pick one, etc. Another trend is Ferrothorn running max spdef, which means that flamethrower doesn't even OHKO which is pathetic.

All in all there's probably a dozen metagame trends to go against this mon on top of it already being awful, a rise is pretty much unwarranted.

The vast majority of teams nowadays are structured with an electric immunity in conjunction with either AV Magearna, Ferrothorn, Tapu Bulu, or two of the three and consider themselves fine vs electrics because they're fine for dealing with Tapu Koko. All of these mons get roasted by Overheat and the teams they're featured on just get fucking ripped apart by Mega Manectric

Yeah Ferro usage is a bit down from where it was a few months ago when it was #2 in tour stats so thats not really a favorable trend for Manectric.

AV Bulu and Magearna are not ripped to shreds - Manectric cannot 2HKO AV Bulu at all and it Horn Leeches a ton off. Overheat does like 35 to AV Mage so thats not really "ripped apart" either.

Finally none of the Mega Manectric noms so far have mentioned Toxapex which just boggles my mind because it can easily just come in and scout against Manectric - Volt Switch does 44-51 because this mon quite literally has HALF the power of specs koko. And if you make a wrong prediction with Overheat pex has a complete field day.


oh yeah and

Ranking this thing in the same subrank as garbage like Volcanion is a damn crime and it needs to be brought up.

this makes no sense because sub volcanion is still a terrifying wallbreaker with z move, shuca, or metronome and is damn dumb for teams to deal with. it just steamrolls fat shit and has good bulk and solid typing. it abuses toxapex as set up bait and is all in all incredibly difficult to kill. if anything, its a damn crime that an Elec that does 44 to Toxapex is in the same rank as this proven wallbreaker that has had solid tour usage and results.

 

[MANNAT]

Manectric is awful and absolutely should not rise. This Pokemon by no means benefits from the rise of AV Bulu - Flamethrower does like 40 and Bulu just Horn Leeches it all off. Overheat is super easy to take advantage of with smart pivoting, and doesn't even 2HKO AV Bulu either. It's weak as hell and you can easily play around with even Toxapex. It's absurdly prediction reliant - you can't assume it gets bulu every time when there's a toxapex that also snacks anything from it. Volt Switch only does 48 to Toxapex, so scouting with it is rather safe. Manectric is actually absurdly weak and is not a reasonable pick for teams the way other stuff in B- is like Tornadus-T, Mamoswine, or Quagsire. Pretty much every metagame trend is not in this mons favor like sky-high scarf lando usage, high usage on Assault Vest Magearna which takes a pittance even from Overheat, Lele which also takes like 30 from volt switch and threatens to pick one, etc. Another trend is Ferrothorn running max spdef, which means that flamethrower doesn't even OHKO which is pathetic.

All in all there's probably a dozen metagame trends to go against this mon on top of it already being awful, a rise is pretty much unwarranted.

Yeah Ferro usage is a bit down from where it was a few months ago when it was #2 in tour stats so thats not really a favorable trend for Manectric.

AV Bulu and Magearna are not ripped to shreds - Manectric cannot 2HKO AV Bulu at all and it Horn Leeches a ton off. Overheat does like 35 to AV Mage so thats not really "ripped apart" either.

Finally none of the Mega Manectric noms so far have mentioned Toxapex which just boggles my mind because it can easily just come in and scout against Manectric - Volt Switch does 44-51 because this mon quite literally has HALF the power of specs koko. And if you make a wrong prediction with Overheat pex has a complete field day.

This post is really blowing things out of proportion and not really appreciating Mane's ability to pick apart offensive teams. Pex can obviously scout for Bulu/Ferro versus Mane, but it's certainly not a risk free pivot by any means, as if it has to comes in on rocks + Volt, it's worn down to ~45% after Black Sludge recovery and can be threatened out by a lot of Mega Manectric's common teammates, pretty much forfeiting all of your momentum. Obviously, Manectric is a bit reliant on Spikes setters as teammates to wear away at mons that normally check it, and this is a reason why it shouldn't be B+ or something along there, but it's still super good vs standard bulky offense teams and can easily break past traditional Tapu Koko answers. AV Magearna is stupidly bulky, but it also gets worn down very fast due to Mane being able to Volt on it repeatedly on top of Overheat chunking it upon switch in. Your points about ferro being SpDef doesn't make sense because Mane should always be running Overheat and that OHKOes the fuck out of Ferrothorn lol. Also, being able to do 55 to AV Bulu with Overheat so that your Ash Gren can pressure it more is pretty useful. I admit I did exaggerate its ability to hit Magearna and Bulu in my post a bit, but its ability to absolutely bust past offensive teams and function so well with Spikes support makes it more than worthy of B- rank lol.

 

[power]

This post is really blowing things out of proportion and not really appreciating Mane's ability to pick apart offensive teams. Pex can obviously scout for Bulu/Ferro versus Mane, but it's certainly not a risk free pivot by any means, as if it has to comes in on rocks + Volt, it's worn down to ~45% after Black Sludge recovery and can be threatened out by a lot of Mega Manectric's common teammates, pretty much forfeiting all of your momentum. Obviously, Manectric is a bit reliant on Spikes setters as teammates to wear away at mons that normally check it, and this is a reason why it shouldn't be B+ or something along there, but it's still super good vs standard bulky offense teams and can easily break past traditional Tapu Koko answers. AV Magearna is stupidly bulky, but it also gets worn down very fast due to Mane being able to Volt on it repeatedly on top of Overheat chunking it upon switch in. Your points about ferro being SpDef doesn't make sense because Mane should always be running Overheat and that OHKOes the fuck out of Ferrothorn lol. Also, being able to do 55 to AV Bulu with Overheat so that your Ash Gren can pressure it more is pretty useful. I admit I did exaggerate its ability to hit Magearna and Bulu in my post a bit, but its ability to absolutely bust past offensive teams and function so well with Spikes support makes it more than worthy of B rank lol.

Tapu Bulu + Toxapex is common as fuck and Manectric struggles to break past that core. It doesn't matter if you gain momentum on Toxapex because literally any other mon that baits in Toxapex switch-ins can accomplish the same thing with a double switch.

"super good" is an incredible stretch because if you look at standard bulky offense there's a ttar or bulu + pex. pex + scarf lando also just harasses the fuck out of Manectric

doing 55 to Bulu sounds good until you realizes it horn leeches like 35 back and you've done like 20 net. Not to mention you're only hitting bulu on the switch with overheat maybe 1/3 times because its so easy to play games with pex

my point with ferro explains why flamethrower is bad.

pretty much all your points assume your opponent is charizardfan2002 and you can perfectly predict them. you will not get every prediction right, and overheat is incredibly punishing every time you get it wrong. If you use a coverage move on pex now you're stuck having to switch another Pokemon into Toxapex which is already incredibly hard for the offensive teams that manectric finds itself on

I'm done shitting up this thread with discussion on this awful mon

 

[Flame from Heaven]

That's a horrible comparison. Terrakion is in no way similar to Greninja and Kartana as the latter two have different purposes. Terrakion is only really comparable to Garchomp

You said scarf is outclassed by Greninja, Kartana, and Keldeo?? They are completely different pokemon and 2 of them are special attackers and kartana has a different typing and playstyle. You argument is invalid

I’m saying Terrakion is similar in their roles as revenge killers. Rock Fighting simply isn’t a redeemable quality that lets it fufill a revenge killing role over the scarfers I mentioned. I mentioned their scarf sets, which do the same role as Terrakion revenge kill faster pokemon or set up sweepers. Z Stone edge may be hard to switch into, but again, it is outclassed by Z stone edge Landorus.
Terrakion is insanely outclassed in everything it tries to do, and it’s ranking should reflect this.
Edit: Since when was Blacephalon walled by Mega Venu?
252 SpA Choice Specs Blacephalon Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 156+ SpD Thick Fat Venusaur-Mega: 206-246 (56.7 - 67.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (206, 210, 212, 216, 216, 218, 222, 224, 228, 230, 230, 234, 236, 240, 242, 246)

 

[NintendoVSPlaystation]

I am going to make nominations myself ( all of them are drops ).

B- to C: Agree
I agree with the majority saying that Mimikyu should move down, but I think C+ is too much for it. I think it should be at top of C at least. I think people tend to overrate that disguise to swords dance set up. With all of the tank like Pokemon running around ( Landorus-T, Tapu Bulu, Ferrothorn, Toxapex, Celesteela and more ), it's 90 attack and 96 speed is not going to get it far even though it has shadow sneak. Ash-Greninja just basically destroys this thing in an instant, and Landorous-T ruining it's day with intimidate just is not a good thing. I feel like in the future this thing will end up in the bottom of the barrel.

C+ to C-: Agree
Honestly, why would you use this? There are so many better ways to use your mega stone than this. That typing is somewhat good, and it has volt switch for a safe getaway, but that is really it. Honestly electric being your only stab option with ground types being somewhat common ( Lando-T ) and Tapu Bulu with assault vest ruining it's day.
252 SpA Manectric-Mega Overheat vs. 252 HP / 56 SpD Assault Vest Tapu Bulu: 192-226 (55.8 - 65.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
Also keep in mind that it has horn leech as sedertz said and overheat makes you drain two special attack away. Since Mega Manetric can not hold items, it can easily get ko'd by the likes of Choice Scarf Landorus-T with Earthquake. Mega Manetric is also frail, so things like this is possible.
-1 252 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manectric-Mega: 288-338 (102.4 - 120.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
I mean even intimidate from the mega is not going to save Mega Manetric. Use Tapu Koko instead in my opinion.

A to A-: Agree
As Finchinator said, I feel like the new population of Steel types hurts this thing slightly. It is still a good pokemon, but A is a little bit too much for this thing. Kartana being it's worst enemy and being more common in the metagame is not a good sign for this, as well as Heatran still being used in many forms of competitive play. That bulk is actually good and that 170 attack stat is impressive, but there is a lot of fast fighting types in this meta ( Hawluncha, Mega Lopunny, and Keldeo ) that can easily either wail it out or KO it. With stealth rocks still being a viable and common tool and it's offense typing being not so great, that is not good for this thing.
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-Black: 414-488 (105.8 - 124.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Kartana Smart Strike vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-Black: 294-348 (75.1 - 89%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
4 SpA Heatran Inferno Overdrive (180 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Kyurem-Black: 297-349 (75.9 - 89.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
The last thing is that it has Ice Beam, but if it had a good priority ( Ice Shard ) and it having Ice Punch, I feel like this thing would overall do better. It is a good threat in OU, but A- suits it better.

A- to B+: Agree
I think people are over-hyping this thing. It feels exactly like Mewtwo in Smash 4, a glass cannon. Choice Scarf with a really good special attack of 157 is a large threat, but I feel like it has some checks that harm it. Choice-Scarf Ash-Greninja is this thing's enemy, and Choice Band Tyranitar Pursuit kills this thing asap. Choice-Scarf fixes the fast Pokemon problem, but other Choice Scarf users who has a faster speed stat than this thing ( 107 ) like Ash-Greninja and Latios kind of makes this thing forced to swap. It can put in some work, but it is too frail to remain in the A- tier.

This is just my opinion, and I could be wrong. I just wanted to share my personal nominations.