Resource USUM PU Viability Rankings

#76
Hey I have some noms I wanna agree and disagree with.

B+ > A-

I'll start with this Pokemon which I Agree with, Type:Null is able to blanket check and beat a plethora of threats in PU due to it's insane bulk and can also serve as a nice win condition with Swords Dance after Ghost types are removed, which isn't too hard when it is paired with Pursuit Pokemon such as Skuntank. Toxic sets are also really nice to lure in the Ghost types for teammates like Primeape to sweep late game.

B+ > A-

I also Agree with this nom since now that Guzzlord has gone, Drampa faces less competition as a Specially Offensive Wallbreaker and it's great Special Attack combined with decent bulk often allows it to grab a kill in most games. Another good attribute it has in this meta is its ability to check Lilligant as well as some Electric and Fire types we have such as Lanturn and Pyroar meaning it has pretty good role compression.

C+ B-

I Disagree with this rise, mainly because of its lackluster Speed tier compared to other Electric types such as Raichu-A or Zebstrika who are able to both outspeed Pyroar and in Zebstrika's case outspeed Archeops. Raichu-A and Zebstrika also offer other niches which Manectric can't such as being able to threaten Lanturn, check Fighting types and check Grass types respectively.

Here are some of my own noms:

B+ > A-

Swanna is a really nice Defogger at the moment because it can easily come in on most Qwilifish and Defog away Spikes or threaten with Hurricane. Its coverage can be pretty hard to switch into for any teams lacking Lanturn and Z-Hurricane offers a cool nuke to a lot of Pokemon trying to blanket check it such as Ferroseed or Drampa.

B- > B
Golem serves as a cool lead rocker for Offensive as it is able to threaten most forms of hazard removal such as Hitmonchan, Skuntank and Swanna with its powerful Earthquake/Stone Edges. It can also beat a lot of opposing hazard setters such as Regirock, Carracosta and Qwilfish providing you don't get burnt by Scald. Golem can also give some great role compression similar to how it did in ORAS as it acts as a Normal/Flying check and a Electric check.

C > C+
Zebstrika has only got better in the rise of Archeops as it can reliably outspeed and check it compared to other Electric types like Manectric and Raichu-A who are either outsped or risk the speed tie.
Definitely agree with Drampa and Golem rises, Golem is a great lead rocker due to sturdy and has the famous edgequake STAB. It can threaten so many Pokemon in the tier right now. It could comfortably rise to B rank right now. Drampa is also a rise that should definitely happen because of Guzzlord leaving the tier, giving it the spot of being the best dragon spec user in the tier.
 

Megazard

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#77
Raticate-Alola should move from B+ to B. I've always been an Absol dude and it's still just super good in this meta. Raticate is too, but it really is just same thing but with the potential to miss. Other than that there's nothing terribly bad about it, but I believe Raticate-A should be one subrank lower to reflect its viability in comparison with Absol's.
Sableye's also suffering enough that I wouldn't mind seeing it drop from A to A-. It's stupidly underused but still, strong special breakers are just getting better and better. Right now Abomasnow, Magmortar, Pyroar, Drampa, Alolan Eggy, Lilligant, Jynx, Specs Mesprit, and other stuff but I can stop this list now are just stupid good and we also are generally more ok about Fighting-type checks.
Carracosta might be S rank at this point, it's really a matter of Smash being absolutely terrifying. I'd like to collect more replays and do a larger nom, but for now at least bringing it up as a discussion point since I wanted to make the above noms anyway is going to have to do.
 
#78
Tangela is honestly one of the best defensive walls in PU and people dont notice it.

Tangela starts off with a base 115 defense before the evolite activates which is insane. Among being very bulky defensively Tangela counters a huge amount of top tier threats such as Lycanroc, Primeape, Gurdurr, Kangaskhan and Hitmonchan. A big factor people dont mention about Tangela is its base 100 special attack & access to a base 130 stab leaf storm, paired with regenerator to reset the stat loss and gain hp from taking hits Tangela does well in the tier and can end up destroying one of you're mons if you're not careful. Tangela's movepool is also decent containing knock off for mons such as Type null and Gurdurr making it easier to kill them late game. More annoying moves include leech seed, toxic and sleep powder which all help in their own ways. Although Tangela does lose to Archeops and most special attackers in the tier, it still provides great defense and does not have to give up any turns to heal when you're opponet swaps out for better position.

I nominate Tangela from C- to C+/B-



Calcs

+2 252 Atk Lycanroc Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Tangela: 132-156 (39.5 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252 Atk Lycanroc Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Tangela on a critical hit: 198-234 (59.2 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Silk Scarf Kangaskhan Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Tangela: 91-108 (27.2 - 32.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
0 SpA Tangela Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Gurdurr: 93-111 (24.8 - 29.6%) -- 100% chance to 4HKO
0 SpA Tangela Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Gurdurr: 162-192 (43.3 - 51.3%) -- 5.9% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Primeape Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Tangela: 75-88 (22.4 - 26.3%) -- 12.5% chance to 4HKO
252 Atk Primeape Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Tangela: 100-118 (29.9 - 35.3%) -- 20.4% chance to 3HKO


Tangela @ Eviolite
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Lax Nature
- Leaf Storm/Giga drain
- Knock Off/Hidden power fire/Hidden power ice/Sludge bomb
- Leech Seed/Toxic/Sleep powder
- Toxic/Sleep powder/Leech seed

There is so much versatility with even the few moves Tangela has.
 
#79
Definitely backing the Wishiwashi nom, been using it recently and it's really cool. Water resists are pretty uncommon right now outside of Lanturn, which is worn down pretty easily, and stuff like Drampa that gets 2hko'd by hydro anyway, so you basically click hydro and nab a kill. Even Type: Null can get 2hko'd after rocks, for an idea of its power, and it doesn't find it too hard to come in with its typing and bulk. Drampa in A- is cool too btw, but A is too high.

And of course not backing the Faticate nom, in fact I'd be more likely to ask for a rise. It's true that it and Absol do similar things, but Faticate does them better basically across the board. I've got a few points to make here so I'm gonna number them:

1. Knock Off. This used to be likely the best move in the game that single-handedly broke a lot of fighting types, but thanks to Z moves it's suffered a significant uh, knock this gen. Mons like Icium Weezing and Fairium Musharna are common, and these are mons that you'd either want to force out or kill in the case of Musharna or to be able to dent or kill when set up in the case of Weezing, but Absol can't because its STAB is reduced to a measly 65bp. Raticate doesn't really struggle with these mons at all meanwhile, 1hko'ing Weezing at +2 after rocks and straight up 1hko'ing Mush with BHE (Or doing like 80-90 with band crunch).
Another issue with Knock Off is that it means that Absol's Black Hole Eclipse is weaker than Faticate's by 20 BP, which is the difference between 1hkoing Regi after rocks and not, and somewhat less importantly 1hko'ing bulkier Skuntanks to avoid Aftermath damage.

2. Sets. Both mons have basically two groups of sets, Swords Dance and AoA. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say there's almost no reason to run SD Absol over Faticate- Absol has to choose what walls it with whatever coverage it picks, finds it more difficult to set up with its poor bulk, doesn't threaten defensive playstyles as much thanks to weaker STAB power (that means it can't threaten Pyuku, unlike Fatty) and the aforementioned coverage choice it has to make. AoA sets are where I'd say most of Absol's niche is in that it can make full use of its wide coverage, particularly imo Superpower which is really nice to help force out slower Normal, Steel and Rock mons. But then, the main reason to run AoA on either of these mons imo is access to pursuit - which Fatty runs far better. Once again if running pursuit Absol has to choose what walls it because it's left with a singular coverage slot, while Faticate's STAB coverage means it doesn't have to worry about that. Not only that, but hustle pursuit can't miss on a mon that switches out anyway, and Faticate's tangible bulk helps make its pursuiting job easier (It's not 1hko'd by the likes of Sensu's Hurricane and Haunter's Sludge Wave after rocks, unlike absol).

3. STABs. I've mentioned this throughout but I don't think this point is laboured enough, that basically Fatty's STABs are so good that it opens up a way bigger variety of sets. Here's an unusual one I've ran with success recently:

Raticate-Alola @ Darkinium Z
Ability: Hustle
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Pursuit
- Double-Edge
- Sucker Punch

This set comes from a realisation that most of the time teams only carry one or two normal resists, so a one-time Dark nuke to break through them was often all you needed for Faticate to sweep. This set gives you pursuit utility but also a sweeper, that can set up and bust through the normal resist to then break everything else with double edge or sucker- and it's something Absol can't pull off due to its mono STAB.

Oh and Absol has not missing. Which is cool! But that's really where its advantages end, and so it definitely shouldn't be ranked above Faticate whose matchup against every playstyle is better (80% of the time hue).
 
#80
Wasn't expecting to participate in this meta until USUM but I've watched most of the PUPL matches in various moments of free time and played some ladder matches. Might as well share my thoughts:
(Agree) Bronzor C -> C+ should have happened a while ago honestly. It has continually shown through it's bulk and amazing defensive abilities it can reliably set up rocks and check a ridiculous amount of threats in a single team slot. Skuntank hurts it but not even banded pursuit comes close to ohkoing. Has seen a lot of usage in PUPL. The switch into skuntank is often so predictable too that it is easily capitalized on by doubling into mons like archeops. Only issue is how passive it is but psywave still surprisingly dents things.
(Agree) Type:Null B+ -> A- Special type wallbreakers are the name of the game right now and Type:Null does it what it does best just eating all damage. Nothing I can really say better than Rwby's post but a check to Mag, Jynx, Lilligant, Pyroar, and pretty much 90% of the special attackers in the tier in 1 slot is invaluable. Modest Specs Drampa's Hyper Voice doesn't 2hko. Combusken's All-Out-Pummeling only does 70% max. AV mag can't 2hko. Good mon

Type:Null pretty much won the game from the start on team matchup alone
Shaneghoul vs Kiyo http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7pu-319099
(Agree) Drampa B+ -> A-/A 100% A- isn't even an argument. If you don't think Drampa deserves A- then I don't know what meta you are playing but it isn't this one. The specs set has practically no switch ins whatsoever. Seeing rather high usage across PUPL especially for a mon residing in B+. Defensive mons can't handle it meaning you have to put offensive pressure on it but if that offensive pokemon can't ohko you are almost guaranteed to be getting one shot back. I could see this in A.

1st turn Drampa grabs a kill because Oricorio can't one shot drampa, turn 20 comes in for free versus sableye and guarantees another kill.
twix vs DimitMais http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7pu-322876

Ruby applies intense pressure to Robert's team the entire match due to drampa's wallbreaking capabilities

Ruby Matoi
vs Robert Alfons http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-642128249
(Disagree) Manectric C+ -> B- too slow, overshadowed by Alolan Raichu and Zebstrika
(Agree) Swanna B+ -> A- yes, its supersonic skystrike defog set is seeing a lot of success across all levels of play. Really good defogger with good matchup versus hazard setters. STABs are all it really needs and SSSS hits surprisingly hard.

Swanna best bird
Dibs the Dreamer vs HIGHSNOB http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-644816444
(Agree) Zebstrika C-> C+ yes, it's a soft check to grass types that also outspeeds key mons like Archeops & Floatzel. It's speed tier is more valuable then it was before.
Raticate-alola vs absol
don't really have a strong opinion on this but if I'm teambuilding and I want to include an offensive dark type in my final slot and there are 2 mons presented to me of about equal viability I'm choosing the one that doesn't have a chance to miss every move.
(Agree) Sableye A -> A- Meta has adapted to Sableye's influence, it's not as good as it once was. It's a relatively safe switch in for Drampa, dark types, and fire type wallbreakers like Mag & Pyroar. Other fighting type checks are rising over Sabeleye like Pallosand

My own nominations
Metang C- -> C+ Pretty much does the same thing as bronzor but sacrifices a more potent defensive ability with more offensive prowess. With meteor mash it isn't completely walled by skuntank and can threaten hitmonchan much more then bronzor can with psywave. Priority bullet punch is nice for archeops. Clear body allows it to avoid intimidate drop vs qwilfish. Actually has slightly more physical defense then bronzor meaning you tank Mesprit's u-turn, skuntank's pursuit, and normal stab better from zangoose/kanga/stoutland etc.

Pretty good representation of Metang in action
Shaneghoul vs Quiet Quiet http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-645227106
Stoutland B -> B+ &
Zangoose B+ -> B

These noms go hand-in-hand in that I think there positions need to be swapped. I couldn't find a single PUPL match involving zangoose and I've never seen it have good success on the ladder. It's an argument that has been done to death by Zangoose's 4mss hampers it too much from being effective relative to stoutland and kanga. Most of the time people can just stall out the toxic on zangoose by pivoting between mons like pallossand, sableye, qwilfish, mawile, regirock, carracosta, golem, sub oricorio-sensu, random protect mons etc. until it just drops on its own. Stoutland has shown that due to it's higher attack in comparison to kanga it's banded return is sometimes more valuable then kanga's silk scarf double edge as it hits harder and isn't on a timer due to recoil.

Lcans is able to 1v1 Kanga with Musharna because Kanga just dies to recoil
Lcans vs sam I yam http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-643573022

Taskr's stoutland is able to stay relatively healthy throughout the battle and continue to exert pressure because it is a normal type physical wallbreaker not on a timer (toxic orb or recoil) allowing it to stay around till practically the end of the match
BIRB MASTER FEEN vs Taskr http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-643638420

Various thoughts:
  • Since the last VR update Megazard is the only one who posed any drops.
  • Why are electrode, vigoroth, and duosion even ranked? Zebstrika seems like a completely better electrode, type:null seems like a completely better vigoroth, musharna seems like a completely better duosion unless I'm missing something.
  • Why are 3 gourgeist forms ranked? Can't you obtain the other forms just through allocating Super's speed evs?
 
#82
first VR post of the generation; yay!
Other People's Nominations

Type: Null to A- Agree
In a lot of ways, Type: Null reminds me of Vigoroth in Gen 6 PU, both being bulky Normal-type NFE win-cons. One of the additional benefits this generation, however, is the prevalence of Skuntank as a Pursuit Trapper, removing Ghost-types that would otherwise hard wall Type: Null's mono-attacking set. Overall just a solid mon that benefits from all of the current metagame trends.

Drampa to A- Agree This thing has ZERO switch-ins. Not even 252/252+ Audino lives two Specs Draco Meteors. I wouldn't rank to A quite yet, due to it being ridiculously slow and Fighting-types such as Gurdurr, Hitmonchan, and Primeape being prevalent and not being as splashable as the other mons in A. Still one of the best wallbreakers PU has to offer.

Manectric to B- Disagree This shouldn't be rising. This should be dropping. Lol. Manectric faces fierce competition from Zebstrika and the other Electric-types of the tier. It's two best sets, Scarf and Specs, leave it totally able to be taken advantage of. In fact, not having the right Hidden Power can leave it completely helpless at the hands of Lanturn, Gastrodon, or Exeggutor-Alola. It's also super frail, and not being able to sufficently check Archeops or Floatzel without having to run Scarf sucks.

Wishiwashi to C+ Agree Trick Room has kind of died since Alpha, but Wishiwashi is still one of the best Pokemon for that archetype. Wishiwashi's main drawbacks are only being able to fit on select teams, being dirt slow, and being a complete liability when under 25%. Still hits like a truck, and Water/Ice/Ground is really good coverage.

Swanna to A- On Fence During Beta, Swanna was the 2nd best defogger in the tier, directly behind Skuntank. Since Beta, the chasm has widened tremendously between the Swan and the Skunk. One of the biggest reasons is the rise of Magmortar and Pyroar being the two most popular Fire-types. Magmortar OHKO's with Thunderbolt and Pyroar 2HKO's with Hyper Voice. Swanna not being a "true Fire-resist" restricts teambuilding in forcing the builder to tack on one, maybe two more "true Fire-resist(s)." Swanna is also quite predictable. I would say at least 95% of Swannas run Scald/Hurricane/Defog/Roost, making it quite easy to check, whereas Skuntank has both a physical and special set, checking and being checked by different things. I'm leaning towards stay B+, but I'd like to see some more discussion. Sorry, GA. <3 you still though.

Golem to B Agree One of the most under-appreciated Pokemon in the entire metagame. Although this generation it faces competition from Regirock as a Normal-resist, and Electric-immunity and access to unique moves such as Sucker Punch separates it enough to carve itself a niche. Ground STAB as previously mentioned threatens out a lot of hazard setters, and the rest don't appreciate being put on a timer with Toxic. Good rocker, good sun lead, good in my eyes to move up a subrank.

Raticate-Alola to B Agree I understand that Raticate-Alola has a fantastic Normal STAB that separates itself from Absol, but I generally prefer the unique coverage moves Absol has access to, including Superpower, Iron Tail, Knock Off, and Play Rough. Also missing due to Hustle sucks.

Bronzor to C+ Agree Despite the prevalence of Skuntank as a pursuit trapper, Bronzor has solidified itself as a decent rocker and check to a plethora of metagame threats, such as Archeops lacking Heatwave and Mesprit lacking Shadow Ball. It's passiveness is somewhat overcome by Psywave, but I believe it's passiveness and Skunk prevent it from going any higher at the moment.

I also agree with the Zebstrika, Sableye, Zangoose, Carracosta, and Metang nominations, but I haven't used these mons enough to go into greater detail than what has already been said on why they should go up or down. Abstaining on Tangela. I haven't used it nor have I seen it whatsoever.

My Own Nomination

Silvally-Normal to UR
As a Physical Normal-type, faces fierce competition from Stoutland, Kangaskhan, and Zangoose and a Special Normal-type, faces fierce competition from Drampa and Pyroar. The only thing noteworthy is Z-Parting Shot, which is outdone by Persian-Alola. Z-Explosion also could be used, but the damage calcs are similar to CB Stout and Toxic Boost Zangoose, and doesn't use your Z Crystal slot.

252 Atk Silvally Breakneck Blitz (200 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Abomasnow: 372-438 (115.8 - 136.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Stoutland Return vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Abomasnow: 345-406 (107.4 - 126.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Toxic Boost Zangoose Facade (140 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Abomasnow: 444-523 (138.3 - 162.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Discussion Point

I would also like to hear some discussion on whether or not Skuntank should be moved to A+. I think it's an interesting discussion point as it gets checked by quite a few of the top tier mons, such as EQ/EP Archeops, CM Mesprit with Z-move, CM Mesprit with HP Ground, Magmortar, Qwilfish, Piloswine, etc.
 
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Twix

is this a dog or a bear
is a Contributor to Smogon
#83
Shoutout to Aaronboyer for a fire format for me to steal!! Also another great piece of artwork from Dibs The Dreamer!

Other Nominations
to A-: Yeah I've been hoping for this nomination for a while just because of how good that Null can be on bulky teams as a great wincondition. With the loss of Guzzlord, tones of new Psychic-types got a lot better, and a huge special wall just got removed from the tier. In this gap, I feel that Null can shine. agree

to C+
: I don't really agree with this at all. I've always felt that Wishiwashi in itself is really suboptimal just because it lacks both Speed and coverage (I'd always opt for Octillery in Trick Room just because of the coverage). While it can hit hard, I just don't personally see it as a great or even good Pokemon in the tier compared to other Water-types with better coverage and Speed. disagree

to A-
: Swanna is really great and I don't really know why this nomination hasn't happened yet. Swanna is one of the best removers in the tier, and it's one of the best offensive Fighting checks. Its speed tier is really solid and the SSSS sets are pretty sick since there aren't many great Flying-type checks which want to take a scald (fuq lanturn). I remember using a Swanna in a not open game and it getting about 5 kills since my opponent was unable to beat it and overall it's pretty splashable and works very well. I don't really think the Skuntank comparison is really valid since although they can both defog they do fufill a lot different roles. agree

to B
: Yeah I think this is a pretty solid nomination as I have seen Golem usage rising over the past month. It's a solid lead setter and the Specially Defensive set isn't bad at all. It's actually pretty hard to switch into without 50/50s. I also like the Choice Band set. agree

to B: I really don't want to accept this nomination to be honest. I think that Raticate's sheer wallbreaking ability surpasses that of Absol, and as people have already mentioned, the secondary STAB is pretty killer (free double-edges!!). I also love that it has access to U-turn. I honestly think that Absol and itself both have so many things that work for each of them (unreliability could be bad but HUSTLE) so I really think they should be ranked together. disagree

Bronzor to C+
: Yeah while Skuntank is very prevalant in the tier I think Bronzor carves out a bit of the niche in the tier enough to warrant this placement. It's really specially bulky and can even stall out a Skuntank without Taunt or Crunch. (Great archeops w/o knock counter as well) agree

and
Swap: Yeah Zebstrika is so much more useful than Manectric in most matchups. Even with a higher Special Attack, Manectric is usually suboptimal when compared to the much faster Zebstrika. The speed really is important with pokemon such as archeops, pyroar, and Floatzel being pretty prevalant. Also, Sap Sipper allows Zebstrika to function as a solid offensive Lilligant answer. agree

Sableye to A-: Honestly I can't really see this nomination happening. Sableye is still the premier Physically Defensive wall and Fighting-type check in my eyes and for good reason. Great typing, Prankster Wisp + Wisp, Recover, and workable stats just make it so good. disagree

+
Swap: Yeah similar to the Zebstrika/Manectric thing, I think Zangoose is generally better due to its ability to switch up moves without being locked in and just its sheer power and spammability. While stoutland is a lot bulkier, it's also slower as well, missing Pokemon such as Skuntank, Qwilfish and Magmortar. disagree

to S: Yeah while I think that there is definitely some counter-play to Carracosta in the tier I really think that it should be moved up because of how great it actually is. While I'd like to see more high level usage to convince me more I have no real reservations about this nomination due to how stupid smash can be late-game and just turn games around. agree

to UR: Yeah personally I really disagree with this nomination since Silvally does still have a workable niche unlike things like Gumshoos which were unranked. The thing it has over Stoutland and Kangaskhan is its speed and ability to use Swords Dance, and it's much more bulky than Zangoose and has more longevity. I also think a Normal-type with Parting Shot is pretty great too. Overall, I think the Swords Dance Z Explosion set fufills a niche (i mean it can OHKO a weezing and demolish walls like Audino) and makes the mon deserving of at least D rank. disagree

to A+: Yeah I can't really get behind this nomination because of how great Skuntank is in the current metagame, especially since Pokemon such as Mesprit are so widespread. Additionally, I'd argue it got even better with Guzzlord leaving, so I feel there's no real reason for it to drop at this current point. It's just such a useful Pokemon filled with potential in so many different areas. disagree

Personal Nominations:
to S: I really think that Magmortar really is as metadefining as Archeops, Mesprit, and Skuntank. With Guzzlord leaving, it lost one of its best answers, and its strong Special Attack paired with workable speed and great coverage makes it really hard to switch into or play around.

to A: With Guzzlord leaving I really think that Alolan Raichu is probably the best offensive Electric-type in the tier, paired with great secondary STAB in Psychic to take on the everpresent Fighting-types. Instead of being forced to run Fightinium Z, Raichu is able to run a variety of other Z moves and has a lot of great sets such as Nasty Plot, choice item, and z. move

to B: I really think that Alolan Dugtrio is really solid currently in the metagame, working as an offensive check to Pokemon such as Archeops, Magmortar, Jynx, and Pyroar due to its great STAB coverage. It also has some options such as the popular Sub Toxic, Life Orb, Band, and something I've been playing around with, Choice Scarf. It also has some solid utility moves such as Memento which can help other teammates.

to D:
Obviously, Zweilous was completely outclassed by Guzzlord as it was bulkier and way more reliable. However, with Guzzlord leaving, Zweilous has the ability to feel in the niche as a Pokemon which is able to counter Psychic-types as well as Water- and Fire-types due to its typing.

to C+: I really don't think that the Z Trick or Treat set is very good to begin with and would much rather use a better Grass-type such as Torterra or even Leafeon. I feel like its movepool does not allow for it to be very effective (especially since it has a wide array of weaknesses which can counteract the boosts form Trick or Treat)

to C+ or C: Yeah I don't really see much of a use for Ursaring that Zangoose, Stoutland, and Kangaskhan cannot fufill other than under Trick Room (which is a pretty mediocore archetype currently).

to B-: Yeah this might be more of a personal think but I think Audino got a lot better with Guzzlord, a Special tank, leaving the tier as Pokemon such as Pyroar, Raichu-A, and Magmortar got a lot better. I feel like Audino just has less competition and is able to stand up against top tier threats such as Mesprit.

Confusing Stuff:

why in the world is Throh B+ rank? I have seen minimal discussion or use about it. Was this put in place by the VR council or did someone actually nom this because I am genuinely confused why it is ranked so high. I have trouble understanding why the fourth best fighting-type is so high especially with Pokemon with Mesprit, Archeops and Raichu-Alola outspeeding it, hitting it super-effectively, and being so prevalent.

why are all of the viable Fairy-types grouped together into one rank (B)? I'd think that one of them has more distinguishing characteristics than another (I feel like Granbull is worse than both of them tbh), but I am unsure as to why they have been grouped in this way (also I potentially think that Clefairy could be able to move up a rank or so due to the lack of great Draco Meteor switchins).

why is Silvally-Ground even ranked? also Sivally-Water? What niches do they have other than Parting Shot, if any?
 
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#84
Floatzel @ Life Orb
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Focus Blast
- Aqua Jet
This set allows it to feign a physical set to lure in phys walls, revenge weakened scarfed users, and bypass slower sucker punch users like skuntank.

Floatzel @ Life Orb
Ability: Swift Swim
Happiness: 0
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Focus Blast
- Hidden Power [Grass]
Floatzel B+ > A- : I've built countless offensive teams relying around Floatzel as a jack-of-all-trades revenge killer and I can say with certainty that it is an A- threat. LO Special AoA or Special w/Jet are the main sets I've been utilizing. Floatzel is able to threaten a wide range of offensive threats and walls due to its coverage and respectable base stats. Some of the best late game sweepers and wallbreakers like Archeops, Lilligant, and Pyroar can be blanket checked when incorporating Floatzel into your teambuilding which is something that cannot be said about many other mons in the tier. It offers teams the highest viable speed tier outside of choice scarfed users and is able to 2HKO all relevant balance walls (Gourg, Weezing, Palossand, Gastrodon with Hp Grass). Additionally, the presence of Lanturn does pose a problem for floatzel but with partners such as Cradily/Ferroseed defensively or Lilligant/Abomasnow offensively you can force predictable switches and pressure lanturn into scenarios where it can no longer switch into focus blast late game. Overall, Floatzel is one of the best mons on offense to handle the faster threats in our metagame and it has very few drawbacks when coming into revenge kill them.
 
#85
Electrode: C- to C+

Electrode has helped my rain team a lot. it is one of the fastest mons in the tier which enables it to set up rain or taunt the opponent before they can even do something. There aren't many good ground types in the tier as well so that's even bettter. though it's frail, with max hp it can survive a decent amount of attacks.

252 Atk Archeops Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Electrode: 231-273 (71.2 - 84.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Mesprit Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Electrode: 153-181 (47.2 - 55.8%) -- 80.1% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Primeape Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Electrode: 226-267 (69.7 - 82.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Magmortar Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Electrode: 231-273 (71.2 - 84.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


Poliwrath: B- to B+
access to belly drum combined with swift swim. It's also very bulky and resists rocks so it's not very hard to switch it in to someting. In rain it's unstopable with this set.
Poliwrath @ Normalium Z
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Belly Drum
- Waterfall
- Brick Break
- Ice punch


the only checks to this set are: qwilfish and shedinja(but rocks take care of it), but qwilfish is still 2HKOed.
+5 252+ Atk Poliwrath Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Qwilfish in Rain: 242-285 (72.4 - 85.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery


As for other people's nominations.

Drampa: B+ to A agree It's a strong mon with decent bulk and a very good ability.
Ludicolo: B+ to A- agree In the rain it barely has any switch-ins.
Lycanroc-Midday: B+ to A-
disagree It's good as a mon that can set up rocks, but as a sweeper it's not good enough to be ranked in A-. And hitmonchan being very good in this tier doesn't help it much either.
Absol: B+ to B disagree though raticate is faster which doesn't make any sense and bulkier than absol, I think absol should still stay in the B+ tier, because the diffrence between them isn't very big. Absol also has access to knock off which got nerfed because of z-moves, but it's still stronger than crunch most of the time. It also doesn't have to worry about missing. absol also has better coverage like: superpower, play rough, stone edge, fire blast and ice beam.
 
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#86
Just gonna give my thoughts on some noms that were given.

Floatzel B+ to A- Agree - Being a fast water sweeper, Floatzel is unlike all the rest of the waters we are seeing now. It shuts down a lot of the late game sweepers with its Priority and Coverage. With its speed tier it is a huge threat to offensive teams that lack a great water resist like Lanturn. Overall I definitely agree with this nom.

Type: Null B+ to A- Disagree (slightly) - Maybe I just don't see why it's getting all this hype, but I never seem to have a problem dealing with this thing. I get that its bulk is out of this world, but I find that it always has a tough time setting up at any point during the game. It definitely has the potential to go up in the ranks, but to me I think we should wait a bit before moving it up.

Wishiwashi C to C+ Disagree - Yeah it has all these crazy stats and some really cool coverage options, but it is awful outside of trick room and tbh it doesn't hit hard hard enough to make up for the lack of speed. Not to mention that Trick Room has been dying out as of late, which is the only play style that this mon is suitable for. If Trick Room were to make a comeback then ya it would deserve to move up, but at the moment I just don't see a great reason for it to.

Drampa B+ to A- Agree 100% - It breaks balance and stall like its nothing. With its natural bulk it even breaks offense if it gets a free switch in. Nothing in the tier appreciates taking a hit from it. Not sure what else to say tbh. Id even nom it up to A, but i'm sure that will happen soon enough anyways.

My own nom.

Palossand B+ to B : I was a huge fan of this mon in Alpha and Beta. Though i'm not sure why its up this high. While its physical bulk is very good and it even hits hard on the special side, it just doesn't perform well. It was an okay guts Yama check with Colbur when it was here, but it's not anymore and it doesn't really break any of the fightings outside of Primeape. I'd love to see some discussion on this though.
 
#87
Really besides knock-off(really unless it's a scarf/evolite user if they live, it really doesn't change a switch in killing absol vs rat because it 2 kos the same stuff) I really like it as a switch in to sableye, being able to not care about anything it does and getting an attack boost I'd hit by knock off and then running psycho cut for wheezing

252+ Atk Life Orb Absol Psycho Cut vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Weezing: 140-166 (41.9 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery

252+ Atk Life Orb Absol Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Weezing: 144-172 (43.1 - 51.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
 
#88
Okay so after a bit of thought and consideration, since I have nothing better to do as of now (yay!) I figured that I'd give some of my thoughts and input on some of the VR discussion atm.

Floatzel B+ to A-: I agree with this, Floatzel is such a great mon in the tier atm due to its good overall coverage, allowing it to hit almost everything in the meta really hard and it especially puts work in vs more offensive teams because of its combination of high speed and great power behind its moves. Basically mirroring what Specs Jigglypuff said about this mon.

Alolan Rat B+ to B: Gonna have to honestly disagree here, I think Alolan Rat is just as deserving of B+ as Absol is just due to its sheer power from Hustle. Normal STAB is a bonus and also compliments it very well imo, getting great neutral coverage on its STABs. Yeah missing sucks, but you can alleviate that to an extent with Z-Moves which further exhibits its wallbreaking potential as a mon.

Wishiwashi C to C+: Also have to disagree with this, it really only fits on TR which is kinda a mediocre playstyle at this time in the meta and it's just so outclassed by basically every other offensive Water-type that PU has to offer. The ability in itself also deters it as a mon because once it goes into its smaller form, it's useless as all hell. Infact, I'd personally vouch for this to drop instead but I'll wait on that for another day.

And since Twix happened to mention this and I wanted to make a nom for this anyways.. I'm gonna gonna make the nom for:

Throh from B+ to B: I find it kinda difficult to make this thing work so well in a meta filled to the BRIM with shit like Mesprit, Archeops, Qwilfish, and a lot of checks to Throh in general. While it benefits from how Spikes oriented the meta is atm, there's just a lot of things that just treat this mon unkindly atm. Sure, it can deal with powerful special attackers like Pyroar and phaze, but there're other mons that can do similarly (albeit they can't phaze like Throh can) and don't get so cucked by most of the things that do plague Throh that also happen to be super common rn.

One more thing I want to touch on that kinda makes me scratch my head, and that's how high Sandslash is. I understand that it does what it needs to for sand teams, but honestly it's just so easy to take advantage of by the multitude of mons within the meta and it absolutely needs sand to even function, meaning you have to use Hippopotas with it as well which is also another admittedly not so great mon in this meta. This isn't a nom to move down (yet) but I really don't see how Sandslash is good enough for even C+, I truly do not like Sandslash in the meta but that might just be me personally.
 
#89
I'll contribute a bit to The Discourse

Bronzor C -> C+: Agree. Still a good role compressor, its passivity makes it less than ideal on offensively inclined teams but its fantastic set of resistances plus access to Stealth Rock makes for a good fit on defensive teams.

Drampa wherever the fuck it is now -> A: Agree. A pretty big leap but entirely deserved, KnightK already observed how hard my team got boned by Drampa and yeah, it's basically the biggest threat to defensive and balance teams bar none. It got overshadowed by Guzzlord before that thing rose up due to Drampa's relative lack of defensive utility compared to Guzz-sama but now that that's out of the way Drampa's capabilities have been on full display. Its STABs are nigh impossible to switch into both for bulky non-resists and relatively frail resists, you need something like a Probopass to reliably switch into its STAB moves, even shit like mixed Ferroseed and Sdef Togedemaru have trouble stomaching a Specs Draco, and then there's the possibility that it uses Focus Blast or Fire Blast. I haven't seen too many non-Specs Drampa but from what I've seen it can function without since it's still powerful enough to do big damage.

Manectric C+ -> B-: Disagree. Even with Lanturn's decline in popularity this thing's still not very good imo, it doesn't have the power to break through any special walls/tanks that aren't weak to Electric or Fire, still struggles with Lanturn/Gastrodon/Dragon-types/Palossand/Piloswine/etc, and it is too frail to come in on anything but a double or an Electric-type move (but it loses to every common Electric-type bar Togedemaru so lol). Worst of all, it's just largely inferior to Raichu-A, which possesses a better speed tier, a secondary STAB move, Nasty Plot, and more coverage options, making it a better breaker 9/10 of the time. Manectric is simply too niche of a mon to go anywhere beyond the C-ranks. Also Scarf Manectric is the weakest mon I've ever seen.

Zebstrika C -> C+: Agree. Honestly not a big fan of this Pokemon still since it's like Manectric but weaker, but it does deserve to be in the same rank as Manectric since it offers a valuable niche in its ability to outspeed the entire relevant unboosted meta (Archeops in particular) plus providing one with a Grass-type immunity, giving it switchin opportunity against a few mons and allowing you to play around Lilligant more easily which can be very beneficial considering Lilligant has a tendency to just end games if you give it the opportunity to get going.

Swanna B+ -> A-: Agree. Swanna has been a great mon offense for a while now thanks to its ability to act as a Defogger with a great deal of offensive presence and a valuable set of resistances to Fighting-, Fire-, and Water-type moves as well as an important Ground immunity. Guzzlord rising and Lanturn usage declining has also been very good for it since a lot of teams now have no way of comfortably taking on its fantastic STAB combo, especially if it has Flyinium Z to punish specially bulky mons.

Zangoose and Stoutland swap: Disagree. Honestly they do different things anyway despite both being Normal-type breakers. Zangoose has the ability to switch up moves without losing power, perfect coverage, and access to SD, Stoutland has a more spamable STAB move making it a good Choice user. I'd say they're fine where they are, Stoutland could go higher but I still feel Kangaskhan is at least slightly better than it.

Tangela C- -> C+: Agree. Not an amazing mon or anything but definitely far from trash, immense physical bulk + Regenerator is very nice and gives one a means of checking several physical breakers without getting worn down, which can be very valuable when you need it as an all-purpose physically defensive sponge. Haven't used it myself but I've seen some people have success with it so it should at least be ranked above trash like Lumineon.

Magmortar A+ -> S: Disagree? I mean, it definitely is one of the hardest things to wall and it has pretty good speed and all, but I do feel that its Rocks weakness and physical frailty limit its ability to come in just a little too much to make it worthy of S. The current S rank mons are either extremely splashable (Mesprit, Skuntank) or combine a lack of great switchins with incredible speed (Archeops). Magmortar falls just short of S rank imo, but I can be convinced given more discussion etc.

Duggy-A B- -> B: Agree. A bit underexplored still but definitely a pretty decent mon thanks to good coverage with its STABs alone and great Speed. I used a SubToxic set a while ago (I used LO but generally I'd say a Z-move would be better), the former move allows you to dodge Sucker Punch from Skuntank and safely OHKO it (also works with other Sucker Punch users of course) while the latter gives you a means of crippling certain pesky physical walls like Gastrodon and Gourgeist-XL. Pretty cool mon and fast STAB EQ is a rare thing so it deserves a rise.

Audino C+ -> B: Agree. Honestly skip B- and go straight to B because honestly it's just a good mon! It's passive so it can't fit on every team, but its ability to blanket check the massive amount of great special attackers running around in the tier rn is very clutch. Regenerator remains a broken ass ability and allows for it to safely switch in and scout what move a Choiced mon is gonna lock itself into without getting worn down easily. Moreover, it's the only decent dedicated Wish passer in the tier. Despite the fact that I lost vs Rwby in that PUPL game, I do think it showcases pretty nicely how well Audino functions on defensive playstyles.

Skuntank S -> A+: Disagree. It's just too splashable, sure it has a lot of checks and counters but it didn't end up in S for its lack of proper checks and counters anyway, it's in S because access to Defog, STAB priority, and great typing make it so easy to fit on just about any team. It's a bit like Poliwrath in XY in how often you just end up needing that Skuntank to compress several roles into one team slot (hazard removal, emergency revenge killer, Psychic-type answer, Pursuit trapper, etc).

Own Nominations:

Clefairy B -> B+.
A very interesting option as a SR setter imo. May face competition from Miltank in the genre of Rockers with recovery but Clef brings some specific traits to the table that make it a very solid option such as the ability to check Fighting-types (needs Defense investment to do this reliably though but as a soft check even Specially Defensive works just fine), immunity to passive damage which is big in a meta where hazards are very good, and the ability to reliably wall an impressive amount of breakers that a lot of Pokemon struggle with. Consider the following:

252+ SpA Magmortar Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Clefairy: 121-144 (35.1 - 41.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO - stalled out with Softboiled
252+ SpA Life Orb Abomasnow Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Clefairy: 129-152 (37.5 - 44.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO - same thing, watch out for freezes tho
252+ SpA Exeggutor-Alola Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Clefairy: 100-118 (29 - 34.3%) -- 3.7% chance to 3HKO - immunity to Dragon allows it to hard counter OTR Eggy-A, not something a lot of Pokemon can boast
252 SpA Swanna Supersonic Skystrike (185 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Clefairy: 144-171 (41.8 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO - actually zero damage
252 SpA Choice Specs Pyroar Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Clefairy: 150-177 (43.6 - 51.4%) -- 6.6% chance to 2HKO - needs two high rolls to 2HKO, just loses if it clicks any other move
252+ Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Hitmonchan Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Clefairy: 143-169 (41.5 - 49.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO - one of the few Rockers to beat LO Hitmonchan at least semi-reliably


Great typing, great movepool, Magic Guard, and a lot of raw special bulk are enough to justify a rise imo.

Shiftry A- -> B+: Being Shiftry in a Skuntank-infested meta really sucks. Skuntank is a better Defogger pretty much all of the time (and Swanna is, too), Skuntank also conveniently resists Shiftry's STAB combo, the most important Psychic-type carries U-Turn which completely destroys Shiftry, Swords Dance faces competition from Absol and RET, both of which are more powerful and arguably have better coverage, so basically it's gotten more difficult to justify using Shiftry in the current meta. I feel this nom is long overdue.

I would also nominate Natu to go from UR to D/C- since Magic Bounce is a niche and if abject trash like Trevenant can get ranked then so can Natu, however my only replay with it doesn't showcase it doing anything at all so I'll leave that nom for later or for somebody else who does have good replays. Trust me tho it's not horrible.
 
#90
Wishiwashi C to C+: Also have to disagree with this, it really only fits on TR which is kinda a mediocre playstyle at this time in the meta and it's just so outclassed by basically every other offensive Water-type that PU has to offer. The ability in itself also deters it as a mon because once it goes into its smaller form, it's useless as all hell. Infact, I'd personally vouch for this to drop instead but I'll wait on that for another day.
Trick Room isn't a mediocre playstyle. A lot of people are underprepared that for and even good player might lose against it. Musharna can set up Trick Room against 90% of the metagame, OTM Exeggutor-Alola and Crabominable made TR better with the first being the best offensive TR setter and the second being able to 2HKO with its STAB every Pokémon in the tier bar Qwilfish.
to C+
: I don't really agree with this at all. I've always felt that Wishiwashi in itself is really suboptimal just because it lacks both Speed and coverage (I'd always opt for Octillery in Trick Room just because of the coverage). While it can hit hard, I just don't personally see it as a great or even good Pokemon in the tier compared to other Water-types with better coverage and Speed. disagree
I disagree with you saying Octillery being better than Wishiwashi since Wishiwashi has a better bulk, higher offensive stats and U-Turn. Moreover Wishiwashi doesn't lack coverage, Water+Ice+Ground is already a good coverage even if Octillery's one is better.

These replaies show that most teams are underprepared for Trick Room which make it stronger.
And for Trick Room efficiency I agree for Wishiwashi for C+ and I nominate Crabominable for B- (a nomination I already made before) because there is no free switch-ins into its STABs bar Qwilfish and it's imo better than Ursaring and Toucanon which are both B-.[/quote]
 
#91
Trick Room isn't a mediocre playstyle. A lot of people are underprepared that for and even good player might lose against it. Musharna can set up Trick Room against 90% of the metagame, OTM Exeggutor-Alola and Crabominable made TR better with the first being the best offensive TR setter and the second being able to 2HKO with its STAB every Pokémon in the tier bar Qwilfish.

I disagree with you saying Octillery being better than Wishiwashi since Wishiwashi has a better bulk, higher offensive stats and U-Turn. Moreover Wishiwashi doesn't lack coverage, Water+Ice+Ground is already a good coverage even if Octillery's one is better.

These replaies show that most teams are underprepared for Trick Room which make it stronger.
And for Trick Room efficiency I agree for Wishiwashi for C+ and I nominate Crabominable for B- (a nomination I already made before) because there is no free switch-ins into its STABs bar Qwilfish and it's imo better than Ursaring and Toucanon which are both B-.
In all of these "replaies" wishiwashi did a total thing of 1: being a sack, this i don't find convincing. I do believe that Crabominable should be B- after watching these replays however.
 
#92
Ferroseed: currently A- -> A
Currently, I believe Ferroseed should be moved up a rank. It's one of the best Water-, Grass- and Psychic-type resists in the tier and has access to a load of great utility, such as Thunder Wave, Leech Seed, Stealth Rock, Spikes and Toxic. Along with being an extremely bulky mon Ferroseed is able to check some of the top threats in the meta like Mesprit, Archeops, Lilligant (lacking HP Fire), and Musharna, along with checking a large portion of the meta. Using move such as Toxic and Protect it can both whittle down and scout the opponents moves, such as what move Scarf Primeape will use, making it very difficult to play against. It's also one of the premier spikers in the tier, alongside Qwilfish, but also has the ability to set Stealth Rocks if needed for that specific role, making it quite a flexible Pokemon to use, in a meta which spikes are very prominent. With all that considered I believe Ferroseed deserves to be A rank.
 
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Rwby

@g change my smogon name to lalala memes :33
is a Pre-Contributor
#93
Ferroseed: currently A- -> A
Currently, I believe Ferroseed should be moved up a rank. It's one of the best Water-, Grass- and Psychic-type resists in the tier and has access to a load of great utility, such as Thunder Wave, Leech Seed, Stealth Rock, Spikes and Toxic. Along with being an extremely bulky mon Ferroseed is able to check some of the top threats in the meta like Mesprit, Archeops, Lilligant (lacking HP Fire), and Musharna, along with checking a large portion of the meta. Using move such as Toxic and Protect it can both whittle down and scout the opponents moves, such as what move Scarf Primeape will use, making it very difficult to play against. It's also one of the premier spikers in the tier, alongside Qwilfish, but also has the ability to set Stealth Rocks if needed for that specific role, making it quite a flexible Pokemon to use. With all that considered I believe Ferroseed deserves to be A rank.
I 100% agree with this nom. In every battle I've played against this it's been the most annoying thing ever, because of the amount of 50/50s Protect causes (s/o HJAD) and the sheer number of things this actually resists I think it's long overdue a rise on the VR. It's also surprisingly splashable on Balance and BO teams, with good utility moves to help out with that. So yeah, give it a raise and if you think it doesn't deserve one I urge you to try it out. (f this mon). Also spikes is literally the meta atm soo...
 

Megazard

I'll show you the life of the mind!
is a member of the Site Staffis an official Team Rateris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributor
BSS Tour Champion
#94
Is it that time of the week already?

Sableye A to A-
Raichu-Alola A- to A
Ferroseed A- to A
Type: Null B+ to A-
Floatzel B+ to A-
Drampa B to A-
Swanna B+ to A-
Shiftry A- to B+
Stoutland B to B+
Zangoose B+ to B
Dugtrio-Alola B- to B
Granbull B to B-
Gourgeist-Average B- to C+
Audino C+ to B-
Natu Unranked to C-
Silvally-Water D to Unranked

Only thing that I think warrants more explanation is Natu. While it may not have seen a PUPL debut or something, Magic Bounce is just really nice in a metagame with so much T/Spikes and status being thrown around, and it has just enough bulk for stall to be able to support it without too much difficulty. It's a pretty excellent switchin into basically any defensive hazard setter and that really disrupts certain teams enough to warrant it a ranking.

Also we're gonna start doing some discussion points. There won't normally be so many but these were the nominations that the council was evenly split on, and they're just things that we'd like to see some more debate on (and if you're confused since there's 7 of us, Anty didn't have an opinion on the ones that were literally 50/50). Anyway, some discussion points:
Bronzor C to C+: a decent amount has already been said on this but we're still unsure so if you have anything new to add (replays!!)
Tangela C- to C
Metang C- to C
Silvally D to Unranked: the niche is SD + Z-Explosion, please try it before you ask that we unrank it
Poliwrath B- to B
Clefairy B to B+

Finally, I've devised a very clever system (using Google Surveys for the vote) so that there's a way to display how the council voted to all of you. It doesn't show how each individual member voted because I considered that less important, but it does show how strongly the council felt about certain nominations so if there's anything you wanted to argue on that you know we've covered you can see how people felt. If you don't like it, that's how OU does it so don't complain. You can view the votes here.
 
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#95
Mudsdale C+ -> B-/B: I've been using RestTalk Mudsdale a lot as a solid check to a lot of common threats right now. It's able to switch into Archeops, Skuntank, Raichu-A, Primeape, Hitmonchan, Kangaskhan, and more, while being able to threaten them all with it's powerful Earthquake or coverage move (generally Heavy Slam, but can be Rock Slide or even Toxic if you're struggling with more defensive teams). It still gets hard walled by Weezing, which is unfortunate for it, and it can't beat sub Oricorio ever if it opts for Toxic. On top of this it can allow threatening mons like Lilligant and Exeggutor-A in, which is why I don't believe it would deserve any higher than B rank. Overall, however, I feel its ability to outlast a lot of balance/stall teams by itself while being a powerful pivot and counter to a lot of popular mons right now means it at least deserves a rise from C+.

Mudsdale @ Rocky Helmet / Leftovers
Ability: Stamina
EVs: 252 HP / 104 Def / 152 SpD
Careful Nature
- Earthquake
- Heavy Slam / Rock Slide / Toxic
- Rest
- Sleep Talk


252 Atk Archeops Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 104 Def Mudsdale: 171-202 (42.3 - 50%) Never 2HKOs through Stamina with SR
252+ Atk Choice Band Skuntank Crunch vs. 252 HP / 104 Def Mudsdale: 154-183 (38.1 - 45.2%)
252+ Atk Iron Fist Hitmonchan Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 104 Def Mudsdale: 168-198 (41.5 - 49%) Never 2HKOs through Stamina with SR
252+ Atk Silk Scarf Kangaskhan Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 104 Def Mudsdale: 187-222 (46.2 - 54.9%) Never 2HKOs through Stamina with SR
252 SpA Oricorio-Ghost Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 152+ SpD Mudsdale: 130-154 (32.1 - 38.1%)
252 SpA Oricorio-Ghost Supersonic Skystrike (185 BP) vs. 252 HP / 152+ SpD Mudsdale: 220-259 (54.4 - 64.1%) If Mudsdale is leftovers, Oricorio needs 2 very high rolls to KO Mudsdale with SR
252 SpA Choice Specs Pyroar Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 152+ SpD Mudsdale: 171-202 (42.3 - 50%) -- 34.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock which drops to a 0.4% chance if Mudsdale has leftovers
 
#96
Illumise: Unranked-> C+: Illumise and Volbeat IMO should always be in the same viability rating. Illumise trades off the more powerful U-Turns Volbeat has for Bug-Buzz, which always does decent damage coming from 85 base SpA. Besides that, they serve more or less the same role. Which one you choose really just depends if you need more consistent damage with Illumise or not.

Kricketune: Unranked->D/C-: No, I'm not memeing. The Scarf Tech Fell stinger set, which I've been threatened banning from the Showdown PU chatroom for (thanks generalannoyance) has a decent niche of being able to consistently OHKO things that even a banded adamant Ninjask can't OHKO. A lot of people look at fell stinger and say that getting to +6 with it is too unrealistic and will never work, when in reality it's the opposite. In my testing of the set, if the Kricketune manages one kill, it will usually get at LEAST one more before going down, and very frequently gets 3.

Here are some calcs comparing Ninjask and Kricketune for some of the higher-tier pokemon. X Scissor is set to 50 power for Krick, so it acts like fell stinger. The Nugget Bridge damage calculator for some reason or another doesn't have Fell Stinger and I currently don't have access to the showdown one. It's assumed that the NInjask is Adamant and the Krick is Jolly. Rocks are also assumed to be up, seeing as for both they usually can't score OHKO's on anything bulky without it.

252 HP Skuntank:
+6 252 Atk Technician Kricketune X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Skuntank: 265-313 (126.1 - 149%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+3 252 Atk Technician Kricketune X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Skuntank: 166-196 (79 - 93.3%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Choice Band Ninjask X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Skuntank: 121-144 (57.6 - 68.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 HP 252 +Def Ferroseed:+6 252 Atk Technician Kricketune X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Ferroseed: 99-117 (65.5 - 77.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

+3 252 Atk Technician Kricketune X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Ferroseed: 63-75 (41.7 - 49.6%) -- 23.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Choice Band Ninjask X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 0+ Def Eviolite Ferroseed: 58-70 (38.4 - 46.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

252 HP No Def Ferroseed:
+6 252 Atk Technician Kricketune X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Ferroseed: 139-165 (92 - 109.2%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+3 252 Atk Technician Kricketune X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Ferroseed: 87-103 (57.6 - 68.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Choice Band Ninjask X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Ferroseed: 64-76 (42.3 - 50.3%) -- 34.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

4 HP Archeops:
+6 252 Atk Technician Kricketune X-Scissor vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Archeops: 135-160 (89.4 - 105.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

+3 252 Atk Technician Kricketune X-Scissor vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Archeops: 84-100 (55.6 - 66.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Choice Band Ninjask X-Scissor vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Archeops: 62-73 (41 - 48.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 HP Gurdurr:
+6 252 Atk Technician Kricketune X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Gurdurr: 74-87 (38.5 - 45.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Technician Kricketune Aerial Ace vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Gurdurr: 60-72 (31.2 - 37.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Choice Band Ninjask Aerial Ace vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Gurdurr: 102-122 (53.1 - 63.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 HP Drampa:
+6 252 Atk Technician Kricketune X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Drampa: 220-261 (118.9 - 141%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+3 252 Atk Technician Kricketune X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Drampa: 138-163 (74.5 - 88.1%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Choice Band Ninjask X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Drampa: 102-120 (55.1 - 64.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 HP 252+ Def Carracosta:
+6 252 Atk Technician Kricketune X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Carracosta: 115-136 (63.5 - 75.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

+3 252 Atk Technician Kricketune X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Carracosta: 72-85 (39.7 - 46.9%) -- 34.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Choice Band Ninjask X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Carracosta: 52-63 (28.7 - 34.8%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock

252 HP No Def Carracosta:
+6 252 Atk Technician Kricketune X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Carracosta: 153-180 (84.5 - 99.4%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+3 252 Atk Technician Kricketune X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Carracosta: 94-112 (51.9 - 61.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Choice Band Ninjask X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Carracosta: 69-82 (38.1 - 45.3%) -- 7.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 HP Piloswine:
+6 252 Atk Technician Kricketune X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Piloswine: 154-183 (74.3 - 88.4%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+3 252 Atk Technician Kricketune X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Piloswine: 97-115 (46.8 - 55.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Choice Band Ninjask X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Piloswine: 70-84 (33.8 - 40.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock


As you can see, boosted Krick picks up OHKOs and 2HKOs on a lot of things more easily than Ninjask does. I'm aware Ninjask does its job safer than Krick does, which is why I'm only recommending a move up to D or C-, but Krick definitely CAN work in this format and i wouldn't at all say he's completely unviable.

 

Twix

is this a dog or a bear
is a Contributor to Smogon
#97
Illumise: Unranked-> C+: Illumise and Volbeat IMO should always be in the same viability rating. Illumise trades off the more powerful U-Turns Volbeat has for Bug-Buzz, which always does decent damage coming from 85 base SpA. Besides that, they serve more or less the same role. Which one you choose really just depends if you need more consistent damage with Illumise or not.

Kricketune: Unranked->D/C-: No, I'm not memeing. The Scarf Tech Fell stinger set, which I've been threatened banning from the Showdown PU chatroom for (thanks generalannoyance) has a decent niche of being able to consistently OHKO things that even a banded adamant Ninjask can't OHKO. A lot of people look at fell stinger and say that getting to +6 with it is too unrealistic and will never work, when in reality it's the opposite. In my testing of the set, if the Kricketune manages one kill, it will usually get at LEAST one more before going down, and very frequently gets 3.
Yeah so basically these nominations aren't very good in the sense that the role Volbeat plays as a C+ rank Pokemon is a rain/sun setter with higher attack. That is the only direct thing that Volbeat has over Illumise, but since the only attacking move it should run is U-turn, Volbeat always outclasses it.

For the Kricketune nomination, I really just don't think there is much niche for it even with Fell Stinger or whatever. I really don't see why you would use it over a better scarfer like Primeape or even a better physical Bug-type in Pinsir. Its web set is bad as well because of how slow it is. Additionally, you didn't really supply any replays to support your claim that it works, if at all, and just supplied calcs against Ninjask instead of the better offensive Bug-type in Pinsir. Most of your calcs just assume that it is going to be at +3 and +6, although it would struggle to get a kill on most Pokemon without boosts. You can't really claim a Pokemon consistently OHKOs more than Ninjask does if it requires being at +3 or +6 to do so and is a lot weaker beforehand.
 
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Akir

What's the Mystery Flavor?
is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
Moderator
#98
Illumise: Unranked-> C+: Illumise and Volbeat IMO should always be in the same viability rating. Illumise trades off the more powerful U-Turns Volbeat has for Bug-Buzz, which always does decent damage coming from 85 base SpA. Besides that, they serve more or less the same role. Which one you choose really just depends if you need more consistent damage with Illumise or not.

Kricketune: Unranked->D/C-: No, I'm not memeing. The Scarf Tech Fell stinger set, which I've been threatened banning from the Showdown PU chatroom for (thanks generalannoyance) has a decent niche of being able to consistently OHKO things that even a banded adamant Ninjask can't OHKO. A lot of people look at fell stinger and say that getting to +6 with it is too unrealistic and will never work, when in reality it's the opposite. In my testing of the set, if the Kricketune manages one kill, it will usually get at LEAST one more before going down, and very frequently gets 3.

Here are some calcs comparing Ninjask and Kricketune for some of the higher-tier pokemon. X Scissor is set to 50 power for Krick, so it acts like fell stinger. The Nugget Bridge damage calculator for some reason or another doesn't have Fell Stinger and I currently don't have access to the showdown one. It's assumed that the NInjask is Adamant and the Krick is Jolly. Rocks are also assumed to be up, seeing as for both they usually can't score OHKO's on anything bulky without it.

252 HP Skuntank:
+6 252 Atk Technician Kricketune X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Skuntank: 265-313 (126.1 - 149%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+3 252 Atk Technician Kricketune X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Skuntank: 166-196 (79 - 93.3%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Choice Band Ninjask X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Skuntank: 121-144 (57.6 - 68.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 HP 252 +Def Ferroseed:+6 252 Atk Technician Kricketune X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Ferroseed: 99-117 (65.5 - 77.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

+3 252 Atk Technician Kricketune X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Ferroseed: 63-75 (41.7 - 49.6%) -- 23.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Choice Band Ninjask X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 0+ Def Eviolite Ferroseed: 58-70 (38.4 - 46.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

252 HP No Def Ferroseed:
+6 252 Atk Technician Kricketune X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Ferroseed: 139-165 (92 - 109.2%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+3 252 Atk Technician Kricketune X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Ferroseed: 87-103 (57.6 - 68.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Choice Band Ninjask X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Ferroseed: 64-76 (42.3 - 50.3%) -- 34.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

4 HP Archeops:
+6 252 Atk Technician Kricketune X-Scissor vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Archeops: 135-160 (89.4 - 105.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

+3 252 Atk Technician Kricketune X-Scissor vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Archeops: 84-100 (55.6 - 66.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Choice Band Ninjask X-Scissor vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Archeops: 62-73 (41 - 48.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 HP Gurdurr:
+6 252 Atk Technician Kricketune X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Gurdurr: 74-87 (38.5 - 45.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Technician Kricketune Aerial Ace vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Gurdurr: 60-72 (31.2 - 37.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Choice Band Ninjask Aerial Ace vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Gurdurr: 102-122 (53.1 - 63.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 HP Drampa:
+6 252 Atk Technician Kricketune X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Drampa: 220-261 (118.9 - 141%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+3 252 Atk Technician Kricketune X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Drampa: 138-163 (74.5 - 88.1%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Choice Band Ninjask X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Drampa: 102-120 (55.1 - 64.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 HP 252+ Def Carracosta:
+6 252 Atk Technician Kricketune X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Carracosta: 115-136 (63.5 - 75.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

+3 252 Atk Technician Kricketune X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Carracosta: 72-85 (39.7 - 46.9%) -- 34.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Choice Band Ninjask X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Carracosta: 52-63 (28.7 - 34.8%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock

252 HP No Def Carracosta:
+6 252 Atk Technician Kricketune X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Carracosta: 153-180 (84.5 - 99.4%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+3 252 Atk Technician Kricketune X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Carracosta: 94-112 (51.9 - 61.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Choice Band Ninjask X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Carracosta: 69-82 (38.1 - 45.3%) -- 7.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 HP Piloswine:
+6 252 Atk Technician Kricketune X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Piloswine: 154-183 (74.3 - 88.4%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+3 252 Atk Technician Kricketune X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Piloswine: 97-115 (46.8 - 55.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Choice Band Ninjask X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Piloswine: 70-84 (33.8 - 40.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock


As you can see, boosted Krick picks up OHKOs and 2HKOs on a lot of things more easily than Ninjask does. I'm aware Ninjask does its job safer than Krick does, which is why I'm only recommending a move up to D or C-, but Krick definitely CAN work in this format and i wouldn't at all say he's completely unviable.
im not gonna touch the kricketune, but the illumise one actually comes up enough that i figure ill go ahead and address it.

the problem with illumise is that there is no real reason to ever run Bug Buzz. You either have to run it over one of the utility moves that the set normally runs (which honestly weather/encore/twave or roost are all really critical) or run it over U-Turn, which at that point you may as well run Liepard since you throw away the slowturn niche. Even then, Bug Buzz doesn't really do enough damage to really warrant use of the turn itself either. Volbeat/Illumise plays 90% of the time as 1. set weather and then 2. uturn out. That is almost always the optimal play when using either.

tl;dr is that Bug Buzz has no place on the set anyway, so the incredibly small niche of a slightly stronger move isnt even called for
 
#99
Yeah so basically these nominations aren't very good in the sense that the role Volbeat plays as a C+ rank Pokemon is a rain/sun setter with higher attack. That is the only direct thing that Volbeat has over Illumise, but since the only attacking move it should run is U-turn, Volbeat always outclasses it.

For the Kricketune nomination, I really just don't think there is much niche for it even with Fell Stinger or whatever. I really don't see why you would use it over a better scarfer like Primeape or even a better physical Bug-type in Pinsir. Its web set is bad as well because of how slow it is. Additionally, you didn't really supply any replays to support your claim that it works, if at all, and just supplied calcs against Ninjask instead of the better offensive Bug-type in Pinsir. Most of your calcs just assume that it is going to be at +3 and +6, although it would struggle to get a kill on most Pokemon without boosts. You can't really claim a Pokemon consistently OHKOs more than Ninjask does if it requires being at +3 or +6 to do so and is a lot weaker beforehand.
That's why I've been referring to Kricketune as a higher skill-index/higher risk higher reward ninjask. You NEED to set up situations for the Krick to get a Fell Stinger. It's highly reliant on having team support to work, ie a Twave user (like the togetic i run with it) but if you can consistently set up situations for it to get that first kill, it becomes stronger than Ninjask in a lot of situations.
I feel like D really isn't a stretch given the fact that it CAN work.
(Also, I'll get some replays to throw in tomorrow, I wrote this on a school-owned chromebook that I can't access showdown on.)



edit: i forgot to address the Pinsir/Primeape claims (although i did more or less address them but not directtly)
basically, the idea behind why you would use this over those two is
1) if you find it more fun like I do (because whether people like it or not, having fun IS a factor and if everyone only ran the best option pokemon would just inherently suck)
2) if you need a SUPER hard sweeper that you're willing to build a team around
3) you want to use something that's not as common so people don't know what it does and you can score some surprise KO's
tbh the reason i personally think this deserves to be D tier is the philosiphy that not being the best option doesn't mean it's unviable. Using Smash Bros. Melee as an example, Fox is clear cut the best character in the game according to most people, but nobody's going to say every other character is unviable because of that
 
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That's why I've been referring to Kricketune as a higher skill-index/higher risk higher reward ninjask. You NEED to set up situations for the Krick to get a Fell Stinger. It's highly reliant on having team support to work, ie a Twave user (like the togetic i run with it) but if you can consistently set up situations for it to get that first kill, it becomes stronger than Ninjask in a lot of situations.
I feel like D really isn't a stretch given the fact that it CAN work.
(Also, I'll get some replays to throw in tomorrow, I wrote this on a school-owned chromebook that I can't access showdown on.)



edit: i forgot to address the Pinsir/Primeape claims (although i did more or less address them but not directtly)
basically, the idea behind why you would use this over those two is
1) if you find it more fun like I do (because whether people like it or not, having fun IS a factor and if everyone only ran the best option pokemon would just inherently suck)
2) if you need a SUPER hard sweeper that you're willing to build a team around
3) you want to use something that's not as common so people don't know what it does and you can score some surprise KO's
tbh the reason i personally think this deserves to be D tier is the philosiphy that not being the best option doesn't mean it's unviable. Using Smash Bros. Melee as an example, Fox is clear cut the best character in the game according to most people, but nobody's going to say every other character is unviable because of that
The point of this thread isn't to rank every mon that's 'fun' or whatever. The VR pictures what pokemon are good or bad in the current meta and Kricketune is one of the most awful mons out there. It's a high risk/low reward mon that should never be used over the likes of Pinsir. I highly doubt you can provide replays of decent quality to prove your points.