UU Speed Tiers

[DaSpoofy]

Timid blastoise

 

[Ernesto]

Hi, I'm not sure whether this is considered speed creep, but this spread:

266/Heracross/85/+Spe/144/0

is something I've seen on SD Heracross, mostly because it avoids being revenge killed by Scarf Mienshao and takes certain Scalds a bit better. The speed still beats both Adamant and Jolly Krow as well as neutral Porygon-Z before boosts. If this isn't a viable spread or shouldn't be added, could someone enlighten me on why? If it is, could we add it, because I think this is a threat to stall teams, so they'd probably like to beat it.

If I'm not mistaken (and I might as well be), that spread is just enough to outspeed Jolly Tyrantrum (and Jolly Honch, if that's a thing), so it wouldn't be considered Speed creep. That could prolly be an alternate spread for SD Hera if it doesn't mind the loss in power. I remember a similar one being used in BW2, I think by user Flare Blitz. It was 112 HP / 252 Atk / 144 Spe Adamant iirc. Obviously with Jolly Tyrantrum being a thing, outspeeding that might be necessary. However, you're merely four points short of outspeeding max Speed Adamant Hera (and other neutral base 85s), so you might as well add those to Speed.

 

[CoolStoryBrobat]

Timid blastoise

Explain what Timid Blastoise accomplishes and I'll think about it if it's worth it...typically it doesn't gain much from max Spe far as I'm aware

Edit: Updated the thread a little bit, got rid of some of the Kingdra spreads that weren't 252 Spe (because Kingdra itself is barely used these days, even if those were on the analysis), added 208 +Spe Crobat, 252 +Spe Mega Aerodactyl, and 144 +Spe Heracross. Lemme know if I missed anything relevant/important.

 

[DaSpoofy]

Explain what Timid Blastoise accomplishes and I'll think about it if it's worth it...typically it doesn't gain much from max Spe far as I'm aware

Edit: Updated the thread a little bit, got rid of some of the Kingdra spreads that weren't 252 Spe (because Kingdra itself is barely used these days, even if those were on the analysis), added 208 +Spe Crobat, 252 +Spe Mega Aerodactyl, and 144 +Spe Heracross. Lemme know if I missed anything relevant/important.

Some heracross. Jolly tyrantrum. Timid nidoqueen. Defensive krook.

 

[YABO]

Explain what Timid Blastoise accomplishes and I'll think about it if it's worth it...typically it doesn't gain much from max Spe far as I'm aware

Edit: Updated the thread a little bit, got rid of some of the Kingdra spreads that weren't 252 Spe (because Kingdra itself is barely used these days, even if those were on the analysis), added 208 +Spe Crobat, 252 +Spe Mega Aerodactyl, and 144 +Spe Heracross. Lemme know if I missed anything relevant/important.

If the Crobat one is outspeeding +1 adamant gatr it's 212+ not 208+

 

[Roseguardin]

Is 522/Heliolisk/109/+Spe/252/+1 worth adding? I don't know if Scarfed Heliolisk gets any use at all, but one thing I did notice is that it outspeeds the +2 Porygon-Z set you have listed, which +1 Ape and Cobalion do not. Of course, if its not viable, I guess it's probably not worth adding, just wanted to ask.

(Of course, my math could be all wrong and this post would be pointless)

 

[CoolStoryBrobat]

Some heracross. Jolly tyrantrum. Timid nidoqueen. Defensive krook.

Adamant Hera. I'll give you that but a large portion (basically every set not running CB...and probably even some variants of CB) do run Jolly
Jolly Tyrantrum is cool but it's somewhat moot if they run Rock Polish/DD. Though Ice Beam/Aura Sphere does still OHKO so I'll give you that
Isn't the concept of Timid Nidoqueen just a major instance of speed creeping in itself? Aside from Jolly Tyrantrum and ensuring you never lose to other Nidoqueen, what else are you getting the jump on because you lose a lot of power by running Timid
And...Is Defensive Krook still used? I think that one is also kinda moot...Arguable, but you legit never see it these days lol.

And assuming I actually did go through and put this on, are we talking max Spe Timid Blastoise (to outrun neutral Feraligatr/tie with +Spe variants) or just enough to beat +Spe 71s?

If the Crobat one is outspeeding +1 adamant gatr it's 212+ not 208+

LOL I actually meant 212+. I actually put it up there as 212+ too, I just had a brain fart.

Edit: Missed this one, lil ninja

Is 522/Heliolisk/109/+Spe/252/+1 worth adding? I don't know if Scarfed Heliolisk gets any use at all, but one thing I did notice is that it outspeeds the +2 Porygon-Z set you have listed, which +1 Ape and Cobalion do not. Of course, if its not viable, I guess it's probably not worth adding, just wanted to ask.

(Of course, my math could be all wrong and this post would be pointless)

Eh I'm kinda not a fan of Scarf Heliolisk...in general Scarf Electric-types did poorly in UU, and Scarf Raikou barely even counted as half-decent. I mean it could be ok if anything but the viability comes into question cuz it actually fails to stop Crocune after a boost or two

 

[DaSpoofy]

Adamant Hera. I'll give you that but a large portion (basically every set not running CB...and probably even some variants of CB) do run Jolly
Jolly Tyrantrum is cool but it's somewhat moot if they run Rock Polish/DD. Though Ice Beam/Aura Sphere does still OHKO so I'll give you that
Isn't the concept of Timid Nidoqueen just a major instance of speed creeping in itself? Aside from Jolly Tyrantrum and ensuring you never lose to other Nidoqueen, what else are you getting the jump on because you lose a lot of power by running Timid
And...Is Defensive Krook still used? I think that one is also kinda moot...Arguable, but you legit never see it these days lol.

And assuming I actually did go through and put this on, are we talking max Spe Timid Blastoise (to outrun neutral Feraligatr/tie with +Spe variants) or just enough to beat +Spe 71s?

max speed timid. I was trying out a water spout blast mainly as a lead and I wanted it to outspeed all nidoqueen and the common adament banded heracross that likes to lead off. Water spout kills so thats why i have it. Against some teams i wish i had modest tbh. Ooh it also outspeeds absol b4 mega and adament lucario. It out speeds modest rotom but i dont remember ever seeing modest rotoms. Speed if lead imo

 

[Vengeance417]

I'm sure Adamant max speed Mega Beedrill should be included here, unless I'm stupid and out of the loop and Adamant isn't good in UU. It hits 389 speed.

389/Beedrill-Mega/145/Neutral/252/0

Also, it should be a good idea to list normal Beedrill's speed as well, since normal Absol has its base speed posted. This will help players gauge how fast normal Beedrill is compared to everyone else before it megas. It basically has the same base speed as normal Absol (75, which is 249 Adamant and 273 Jolly), so you could just include normal Beedrill wherever normal Absol is located.

 

[Serperior for Uber]

Adamant Mega-beedrill isn't really a thing and regular beedrill doesn't need its regular speed stat as literally all beedrills run protect to get the speed. Absol is a different case as you could want something to beat it pre-mega considering it doesn't run protect.

 

[Vengeance417]

Adamant Mega-beedrill isn't really a thing and regular beedrill doesn't need its regular speed stat as literally all beedrills run protect to get the speed. Absol is a different case as you could want something to beat it pre-mega considering it doesn't run protect.

I understand the feelings towards Adamant Mega Bee, but I figured if you were up against anything slower than normal Bee, such as Suicune, defensive Rotom forms and any of the other wall-ish Pokemon in the game, it wouldn't hurt to know how normal Bee stacks up against them in terms of speed. This would mean you wouldn't HAVE to go for Protect against them and just U-Turn out of there, and proceed to use Protect later on in the match to scout opposing Choice item users.

 

[CoolStoryBrobat]

I'm sure Adamant max speed Mega Beedrill should be included here, unless I'm stupid and out of the loop and Adamant isn't good in UU. It hits 389 speed.

389/Beedrill-Mega/145/Neutral/252/0

Also, it should be a good idea to list normal Beedrill's speed as well, since normal Absol has its base speed posted. This will help players gauge how fast normal Beedrill is compared to everyone else before it megas. It basically has the same base speed as normal Absol (75, which is 243 Adamant, the same as 148 Spe Suicune and 273 Jolly), so you could just include normal Beedrill wherever normal Absol is located.

Added.

 

[Euphonos]

This needs to be stickied y/n

 

[Louna]

I think Agility luke 252 speed adamant can be added (it run 558 with agility) he can outspeed thinks like Mienshao scarf jolly, Espeon scarf timid, 108 bs scarf+nature and some others thinks

 

[CoolStoryBrobat]

I think Agility luke 252 speed adamant can be added (it run 558 with agility) he can outspeed thinks like Mienshao scarf jolly, Espeon scarf timid, 108 bs scarf+nature and some others thinks

Worth consideration but I want some others to testify to the viability of Agility Lucario first. Sounds fun at first but how worthwhile is it?

 

[Hogg]

Worth consideration but I want some others to testify to the viability of Agility Lucario first. Sounds fun at first but how worthwhile is it?

Haven't had a chance to try it out myself, but here it is being used in UUPL finals, blunder v aim: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-uu-64103

 

[DaSpoofy]

Haven't had a chance to try it out myself, but here it is being used in UUPL finals, blunder v aim: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-uu-64103

well it was a ct. Blunder didnt think aim had iron tail and he didnt want damage on aggron because it blocked slurpuff sweep so he sent in crobat thinking aim only had crunch.

I just dont know if sword dance espeed completely outclasses it. And if you are running agility then you dont have e speed which makes lucario so good. I guess lucario turns into more of a cleaner than a wall breaking sweeper with agility. I'll have to try it for myself.

 

[Kink]

Moderation bump to keep important thread near the top.

 

[Nightingales]

I couldn't find scarfbat.

Scarfbat or riot.

 

[Schpoonman]

Defer to my signature for Scarfbat's speed tier.

Also, have Venomoth and Smeargle (at varying speeds) been added to the tiers yet? Are there particular Veno sets that don't run max speed?

 

[CoolStoryBrobat]

Defer to my signature for Scarfbat's speed tier.

Also, have Venomoth and Smeargle (at varying speeds) been added to the tiers yet? Are there particular Veno sets that don't run max speed?

Far as Venomoth goes, I recall jjoshcja saying something about a Venomoth set/spread that had like 216 Spe or something? Enough bulk to take a Scald from something at +1...Can't quite remember, so I'm gonna tag him for his input as to whether it should be added. Smeargle, though, I dunno if anyone would use a set that isn't running max Spe given how slow Smeargle already is, but I haven't used it so I guess any other input regarding it would be welcome.

...Also kudos for the sig :]

 

[jjoshcja]

216+ is heracross and that should be all moth really "needs"

224+ should be rotom-H and nidoking if memory serves, which is probably better.

past that you're looking at base 90 speed tie land which is a bad bad place

 

[Rollout Shuckle]

Smeargle, though, I dunno if anyone would use a set that isn't running max Spe given how slow Smeargle already is, but I haven't used it so I guess any other input regarding it would be welcome.

Smeargle should always run 252 Speed EVs and a positive nature on the hazard set, and no other sets are currently viable at the moment so yeah it should be 252+ on the Speed Tiers

 

[rs]

I think it might be worth adding Hoopa now, since it sits at a pretty interesting speed tier with a base 70. These are the ones that I came up with, if anyone has any suggestions for other sets let me know, I've seen some no speed CM Hoopa's and some others that just creep certain mons like Honchkrow but I don't think those are popular enough to warrant being added.

(Tier 2 - Max Speed Timid LO Set)
262 / Hoopa / 70 / +Spe / 252 / 0
260 / Porygon-Z / 90 / Neutral / 176 / 0
259 / Chandelure, Gallade, Kabutops, Mamoswine, Stoutland / 80 / Neutral / 252 / 0

(Tier 3 - Modest LO Wallbreaker Set)
239 / Hoopa / 70 / Neutral / 252 / 0
239 / Cloyster, Ludicolo, Magneton / 70 / Neutral / 252 / 0
236 / Scrafty / 58 / +Spe / 252 / 0
235 / Exploud / 68 / Neutral / 252 / 0

(Tier 4 - Offensive Trick Room Set)
130 / Hoopa / 70 / -Spe (0 IVs) / 0 / 0
126 / Ampharos-Mega, Granbull / 45 / Neutral / 0 / 0
116 / Camerupt, Forretress, Rhyperior / 40 / Neutral / 0 / 0

Also just a small change but most Crobat's tend to run 236+ now to outspeed Adamant Mega Bee/Modest Mega Scep so I think that should be added as well even if its pretty much max speed

 

[jjoshcja]

On tr hoopa it's probably a good idea to outspeed base 65 uninvested outside of tr to give it more utility vs balance because umbreon, it's not too hard to run it with a dark soak that can abuse tr (machamp comes to mind) while perts EQ can be easily covered by good ole megasnow who is a pretty optimal mega for semi TR teams and snipes most of the mon's hoopa needs setup to break + packs prio.

For non TR hoopa's I would draw the line at creeping adamant base 80's you need timid but frankly no team enjoys swapping into adamant mamoswine. (but I just hate speed ties)

Edit: 24 speed IV hoopa can safely outspeed 8 speed umbreon outside of TR with a modest nature.

244 timid hoopa outspeeds adamant mamo