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UU Suspect Discussion - Chandelure

Discussion in 'BW UU' started by kokoloko, Feb 12, 2013.

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  1. kokoloko

    kokoloko supersmooth
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    Hello UU.

    Chandelure has been selected as a suspect for Stage 11. Everyone who plays the tier is welcome to participate in the discussion and express their opinion on whether or not they believe Chandelure to be ban-worthy. All UU Senate members are expected to be actively involved in the discussion.

    While this is a debate and you are trying to convince the people voting that Chandelure is / isn't ban-worthy, please do remain civil and have respect for everyone else. I will not hesitate to edit / delete / infract posts that are rude or insulting to other members. I will also not hesitate to delete / infract inane or flat-out stupid posts, either (ie. "Snorlax is like #3 in usage! How could Chandelure possibly be broken???"). Also, this should go without saying, but it's happened in the past, so... please refrain from posting if you don't actually play UU. Thanks.

    The debate is expected to last anywhere from 1-2 weeks, after which I will post the requirements for those who wish to apply to vote as part of the Senate. The actual vote will be carried out about two weeks later and the resulting paragraphs will then be posted in this thread and the verdict will be carried out.

    That is all.
  2. Dallasboi1992

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    Chandelure is a powerful Pokemon in the UU Metagame. With base 145 SpA, Chandelure is a menace in UU and practically nothing can switch in on it without getting 2HKO’d. Its Fire-Ghost STAB is unresisted by all but Snorlax, Houndoom, and Porygon2 (Provided Chandelure has Flash Fire). Blastoise can hit it with a water type move, but Chandelure can pack Energy Ball to hit it back with and 2HKO it. Same with Rhyperior. Heracross can revenge kill it with Earthquake, but it can't switch in because Fire Blast will destroy it. And as for the previously mentioned Porygon2 & Snorlax: What if Chandelure goes for Trick and gives either of them a Choice item? Houndoom can outspeed and KO it with either Dark Pulse, Sucker Punch or Pursuit (provided Chandelure switches out), however, it can't switch in on Hidden Power Fighting without running the risk of getting 2HKO'd (especially if Stealth Rocks are up; then it's an OHKO). Honchkrow, Weavile, and Krookodile can also combat the chandelier with a STAB dark move, but again, they can't switch in safely. The problem with Chandelure is that it has an average base 80 speed, but that can be patched up with a Choice Scarf making it fast and still powerful. On whether Chandelure is broken or not: It has the power and movepool to be broken in UU, but not the speed.
  3. PK Gaming

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    Incoming unpopular opinion lol

    So a bunch of respectable players think that Chandelure is unhealthy for the metagame, and usually i'm the first to be on their side but... I just can't see myself hating on Chandelure; with all due respect, I think it's a very much an "broken on paper" Pokemon. It has like 1 reliable counter, but its ridiculously slow & SR weak. That speed is irrelevant against walls, but it DOES matter against faster paced teams, since it will have a hard time switching in the midgame, especially SR is up. I haven't really faced a Substitute Chandelure so I can't comment on how strong it is, but from my experiences with Choiced Chandelure, i've never had a overwhelming problem outmanoeuvring with it. I'll admit that Specs Shadow Ball is a problem that doesn't really have a solution, since outside of Snorlax and maybe Houndoom, there aren't many Pokemon that can switch into Shadow Ball AND Fire Blast but I don't really think those qualities are enough to damn a Pokemon to BL. In fact, i'd sooner argue that Special Attacking Victini is an unexplored threat that's just as dangerous (seriously nobody uses it) as Chandelure. It's been said that Chandelure basically forces you to use Snorlax, but from experience in the SPL / reading up on logs, I didn't notice that many Snorlax. I didn't see an overwhelming amount of Chandelures drawing blood.

    It's a pain in the ass, but I don't think its broken.
  4. shiranai

    shiranai

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    I've been using Chandelure since I first met the tier. 145 SAtk BP is extremely high for any tier at all (no pokemon in OU can reach a higher SAtk, while Thundurus-T can tie), but what make Chandelure not broken is its speed. Without a Scarf even Nidoking can outspeed it, and thanks to Stealth Rock weakness and subpar speed a Life Orb isn't an ideal option. This said most common Chandelure's set are both choiced, making it a predict war; tricking a Specs to a Blastoise can destroy your Chandelure. SubsChandelure is effective only because the most successful sets are the choiced ones, making easier to setup since people expects these sets; if it wasn't for this the SubSplit or any Substitute set at all wasn't viable thanks to its speed (again) and low HP, paired with a bad defensive typing (even having 2-3 immunities) and average bulk. Also, the choiced sets can easily be trapped by a Pursuit user as long as it is locked in the wrong move.

    In the end, I don't think Chand is banworth because it is slow, can be destroyed by predict and is really slow for the tier.
  5. JabbaTheGriffin

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    SR weak. Slow. Mediocre typing
    Chandelure is pretty much the spokesmon for hits like a truck but still sucks (well not sucks but you get the point). It kind of reminds me of CB hax in ou (or more recently and more similar: k-b). I've used and played against every single form of chandelure and until it gets shadow tag it won't be broken in UU.

    I'll go in more in depth if i have to. But for right now id just like to note that for the most part UU is an offensive metagame. If our goal is to slow it down then chandy isn't even the worst offender. If our goal is to stick with this pace then chandy is too easily checked to be broken.
  6. Metal Sonic

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    Chandelure, for now, is not broken. It's base 80 speed is slow, has a typing that is weak to 5 different types; including Rock(Stealth rocks), and has a few very solid counters in this UU metagame.

    Most pokemon outspeed it and may OHKO it, some weaker mons who couldnt OHKO cleanly can use the Stealth Rock 25% bonus to finish Chandelure. 5 examples of solid Chandelure checks which outspeed and can OHKO are Mienshao, Mismagius, Heracross, Azumarill(aqua jet), and Nidoking. These are very very common pokemon used in today's UU metagame; I'm not conjuring up some other obscure pokemon like Archeops or Krookodile or whatever.

    The fact of the matter is Chandelure's low-ish speed and multiple weaknesses render it easily outsped and OHKO'd. The weakness to Stealth Rock is also very very bad.


    Perhaps when Chandelure actually gets Shadow Tag; then we can reconsider another suspect discussion.
  7. Mazz

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    As much as I'd like to agree with the other members on Chandelure being a positive aspect of the Underused metagame, I'm going to have to stray a bit from the popular opinion and flat out say that Chandelure is unhealthy for the Underused metagame, even ban-worthy, but not broken. Warning, my argument's a bit lengthy and essay-ish.

    First off, I want to build my argument off the nature of the tier. In an offensive tier such as Underused, defense isn't a team's primary thought when it comes to teambuilding (outside of bulky offense, which only accounts for, assuming balance runs a Chandelure check, less than half the teams in the tier). You want Pokemon that can punch through each others checks as quickly and easily as possible, and win matches in similar fashion. This being said, Pokemon like Snorlax and Porygon2 don't quite make offensive teams (besides like, CB Snorlax). Teams that fail to run either of these two Pokemon or a Water-type with a heavy HP and SpD investment (not a common characteristic of run-of-the-mill offensive teams either) will be ran-over by Chandelure, as they have nothing that can freely switch-in on Chandelure, and those monstrous Fire Blasts and Shadow Balls. Because of Underused being a more offensively-orientated tier, Chandelure is exceptionally unhealthy for the Underused metagame, as it forces that same metagame to adapt defensively to a single attacker instead of focusing more on direct offense.

    Secondly, Chandelure in itself is a bit of an anomaly. It ties for 10th in regards to the highest Special Attack stat in the entire game (everything else on that top-10 list is currently residing in OU or Ubers), has a typing that gives it two immunities (three with Flash Fire, but Flame Body is better anyways), 6 resistances, and 5 moderately-common weaknesses, and sports a stat pool that allows it to keep pace with the majority of the metagame while being capable of taking weak or resisted hits. Chandelure also sorts a movepool that allows it to bypass many common types that would otherwise check Chandelure, such as Energy Ball for Water-, Rock-, and Ground-types, or the versatile Hidden Power (Fighting), which allows it to punch through Dark-types (albeit Houndoom is the only one this does work on, the others just pitifully die to Fire Blast). Something with such offensive utility doesn't entirely belong in Underused, a tier where overly-powerful (offensively or defensively) and versatile Pokemon don't exist in abundance, as there's not a lot in the tier capable of handling everything Chandelure does. Chandelure's overall utility, backed by an absurd Special Attack, makes it unhealthy for the metagame, as few Pokemon are properly equipped for something of its typing and stat spread.

    The next point I want to build upon is the go-to checks of Chandelure and how they really don't check Chandelure and Chandelure Teams. On the odd occasion, an offensive team may forfeit one of its hitters to make room for something like SpD Snorlax, Porygon2, or Umbreon for insurance against Chandelure, but we mustn't forget that Chandelure isn't something that operates alone. Heracross has a teammate deviation of +5.093%, and also happens to be a rather viable check to all three of those Pokemon. Smart play alone through some double switches will quickly wear the specially-defensive titans of UU down, especially if there's any form of hazards on the opposition's side of the field. Forcing Snorlax to Rest is what will hurt it most in the long run as it's basically a sitting target for 2 turns. Blastoise, a relatively common partner to Chandelure, can utilize Toxic to help break through Porygon2, who cannot heal itself of status without a teammember running Heal Bell or Aromatherapy. Umbreon's reliance on low-PP moves (Wish and Heal Bell) to keep healthy prevents it from lasting overly long in a match against an offensive team, especially since those healing moves may be directed at other members of its team. The shortcoming here is that even with one of those three Pokemon, offensive teams that run Chandelure have more than one way to get through Snorlax, Porygon2, or Umbreon, and will still see Chandelure pull out on top, whether it be from status support, hazards, a Fighting-type teammate, or a combination of the three. Snorlax, Porygon2, and Umbreon (the former two moreso than Umbreon) cannot be considered guaranteed checks to Chandelure either, as the more common variants (see Choice Band Snorlax and Tank Porygon2) don't stomach hits from Hidden Power Fighting and Fire Blast, respectively, as well as their defensive counterparts do and still suffer the same effects of Trick, Chandelure's "trump card". Choiced Chandelure (>65% usage amongst all Chandelure variants, whether it be Specs or Scarf) has notoriously made a habit out of carrying Trick around, neutering the chances Snorlax and Porygon2 have of walling it (and its teammates) while severely limiting what Umbreon can and cannot do to Chandelure and itself (healing-wise). Umbreon may be a full-on stop to Chandelure, but it has next to no offensive viability, finding its home mostly on Stall teams, where even then, it's still not that good.

    My third point dawns some light on there being so few offensive checks to Chandelure. The only sure-fire offensive checks to Chandelure are those that can outspeed its Choice Scarf set while being capable of accurately hitting and KOing Chandelure, typically on a revenge kill or double switch. Five Pokemon; Darmanitan, Kingdra, Heracross, Sharpedo, and Flygon, are the names I come up with, as they all commonly run sets faster or capable of being faster than Chandelure, while carrying a STAB or coverage move that will knock Chandelure out 100% of the time, while also having relevance to the Underused tier. Something with less than ≤10% usage cannot be considered a "sure-fire" offensive check, simply because of how scarce it is and how it may not perform as expected (see kokoloko's article, Underused 101, where he discusses in Step One, Fourth Priority: Miscellaneous Common Dangerous Threats. Uncommon checks should not be focused on as heavily as common ones, etc.). With only 8.6% of the tier capable of safely and efficiently revenge killing Chandelure, it's more than safe to say that Chandelure is simply too good for the Underused metagame, being an unhealthy component that more than often forces you to take additional damage midst-revenge kill, potentially opening holes for its teammembers to overwhelm the opposing team.

    I also want to note that predicting a switch to trap or wall Chandelure is relatively easy to do, as many players almost "fear" it and what it can do to a team.

    Another point I'd like to expand on is that Chandelure is already a huge pain in the ass for many teams on the ladder and in tournaments, and it's only going to get worse. Shadow Tag is bound to be released sometime in the (hopefully) not-too-distant future (I've heard many speculations placing the release in June/July 2013) and it's going to turn Chandelure into an overpowered Gothitelle with a few more resistances and much better offensive typing. I feel it's in our best interests to just let go of Chandelure while "on a high note" and do what's best for a tier already having moderate difficulties handling it. In the article, Characteristics of a Desirable Metagame, DougJustDoug highlights key areas in policy, such as Player Skill, Balance, and Variety. Based on the negative impact Chandelure has upon the Underused metagame, it can be seen as apparent that Chandelure being a member of the Underused tier is disrupting Player Skill similar in fashion to how Chansey did, but not nearly as severe, and creating hiccups in the balance and variety of the metagame itself. Chandelure is a potent weapon that can almost be thrown around extremely easily despite its obvious flaws (SR weakness most importantly), as it's borderline guaranteed to nab an OHKO or 2HKO (depending on the set) on any incoming or standing Pokemon, the exceptions being the three defensive checks to Chandelure and the 5 offensive checks to Chandelure - a total of 8 Pokemon (13.8% of the entire tier). With the lack of checks, players can simpy "button mash" on either Fire Blast or Shadow Ball and blindly utilize Chandelure, as its power lets it get away with it for the most part. This is the definition of lack of skill caused by Chandelure, as its power, dual-STAB, and useful coverage moves allow a player to almost play dumb with Chandelure without suffering too many repercussions. Because of this power, the metagame is basically cornered into running one or more of those eight Pokemon referenced throughout this argument to prevent being demolished by a Chandelure team. Such imbalance and lack of variety is unhealthy for the metagame, as it does hinder the offensive nature of the tier. Nothing's saying that common sense cannot be applied to policy either. Would the tier be better off without Chandelure? Easily. Chandelure holds a lot of offensive pressure, and not running one or more of those 8 referenced Pokemon can and will cost you matches. How much would the departure of Chandelure affect the tier? I cannot answer that directly per-say, but I can speculate that other Special Sweepers would finally see better usage with Chandelure removed, promoting increased diversity throughout the tier. Would something from the depths of RU or even NU be able to step foot in UU with Chandelure out of the picture? Who knows? Nothing's saying it couldn't happen. Things like Slowking may actually become more than just viable, as it won't have to worry about an incredulously powerful Shadow Ball waiting around the corner.

    However, I do agree with users such as JabbaTheGriffin, who present the argument that Chandelure isn't what we should be looking at if we want to slow the tier down (although I do believe it doesn't hurt to put things like Chandelure in the spotlight) for the time being. With Shadow Tag, Chandelure will need to go.

    TL;DR (sorry about it being so long really), ban it, but not because it's broken, but because the metagame would be better off without it, as it truly is a very unhealthy aspect of the metagame, having very few reliable checks and even fewer switch-ins. Chandelure isn't the heart attack, it's the cholesterol.
  8. silenced

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    I'm kind of torn, but I can't say I'm too happy seeing some of the arguments as to why chandelure is not broken, so I might give some arguments to even it out.

    Firstly, in regards to being SR weak, I'm going to really go against the majority of posters in general and say this is mostly irrelevant. Unless Chandy falls below 25% health, this does not stop chandelure from doing its job at all. It does restrict the number of times chandelure can do/attempt to do its job, but otherwise, It certainly does not stop it from incinerating pokemon. You still have to outpredict at least once, and that assumes you have a way to trap it the first time (i.e CB snorlax (other variants of snorlax do not 100% OHKO w/out rocks) or mixed houndoom).

    This also assumes SR is even on the field. While I do realise SR is simply that popular you will almost certainly see it, high pressure applied to teams and the mindset that rapid spin is borderline compulsory mean this is not always the case. SR has also in the past been refused from arguments on suspects too, in particular when we had chansey the second time round, as people seemed rather keen that SR was not allowed to play a part in damage calculations when discussing ways to remove the blob from the field. I therefore do not see why SR should be allowed to play a part this time.

    Secondly, I think a few people are having tunnel vision with chandelure, particularly being highlighted in shiranai's post, that people just expect one of two sets from chandelure when it can run a number of sets or different moves to overcome its problems/counters. Flame charge or trick room fix speed issues (see this thread http://http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3477626 ), energy ball for bulky waters, HP fighting/trick for normal checks and counters, and substitute for pursuit (or if you really want to cause P2 a headache, SubCM).

    Edit: Pokemazter added a lot more while I was typing, otherwise I'd expand more, as what he has said is quite relevant)
  9. kokoloko

    kokoloko supersmooth
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    Okay so here's my thing.

    Smogon (as in, the tiering leaders of Smogon) are kind of forcing my hand in the issue of banning only broken things. However, despite my efforts, they fail to see that this is impossible because no one knows what 'broken' actually means.

    For example, Pokemazter wants to see Chandelure banned because its unhealthy for the metagame as opposed to being broken. I, however, think Chandelure is flat-out broken. What makes this interesting is that our reasoning is very similar.

    In my opinion, we first need to decide what the word broken actually constitutes in our metagame. I'm not going to try and actually define it because we all know that's impossible. I also don't want to go back to the fourth generation's "Characteristics of an Uber" because those were kind of... idk... not good? Nothing ever met the defensive characteristic (although BW Chansey probably would) and both Salamence and Latias were banned under the support characteristic rather than the offensive characteristic for some reason.

    Anyway, here's how I look at this particular case:

    Some might not agree with me, but pretty much every top player in the tier includes Snorlax in almost every one of their teams. While Snorlax is very good in its own right and Chandelure is obviously not the only reason they use it so often, it seems pretty clear to me that preventing Chandelure from running right through them is a pretty big chunk of the reason. When a Pokemon's presence in the metagame forces you to run a single Pokemon in every team you build, it seems pretty clear to me that said Pokemon is unhealthy for the metagame. It promotes the opposite of diversity.

    Just the other day we were having a discussion on IRC about how RT, reach, myself, and a bunch of other top players always have this problem with all our teams looking really similar after we make them. reach figured that this was because there's so little incentive to /not/ run Snorlax that every team goes: Core = Snorlax + good Snorlax partner(s) + Stealth Rock user + probably a Choice Scarf user. By then the team is almost done... so yeah no shit they all look really similar. I don't want to get too much into this, but the point is that without Chandelure in the tier, we (or at least I) would not feel so forced to use Snorlax on every team, which would in turn increase diversity, which is good.

    Now, let's backtrack a little. How does this make Chandelure broken? Its really all about the effect it has on its surrounding environment imo. If it distorts the metagame this much, it breaks it. If it breaks the metagame, its broken. Make sense? Cool.

    PS: Can we not assume Stealth Rock will always be up on Chandelure's side? This simply isn't the case.
  10. Metal Sonic

    Metal Sonic Turn it up!
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    I'd like to rebut Pokemazter's three points. It is indeed true that he has presented a very good and strong argument, and that they are very convincing without any contradicting evidence; therefore I would like to present a few facts that could change our opinion, and persuade the masses that Chandelure does not deserve a ban.

    @Point 1; regarding UU being an offensive tier and Chandelure making it more defensively orientated; Fire Type STABs are extremely common in the metagame; it is impossible to build a successful team without preparing for related threats such as Victini or Darmanitan. Chandelure does not bork the metagame any more that it already has; in fact it is just another option for offensive teams to use. In fact, In an offensive metagame, Chandelure is considered quite 'slow'; with its Base 80 speed it is easily outsped by more "offensive" threats which you just so mentioned; most of them are at Base 85 speed or higher.

    Point 2;regarding Chandelure having extremely high Special Attack; the fact is that Chandelure's weaknesses are extremely common: Ground and Rock are eveywhere; Dark is also very common, and Ghost and Water are indeed lesser seen but are in no way as obscure as say, Dragon or Psychic. The next problem here is that Chandelure's STABs are possible to have an immunity to; Ghost is cockblocked by Normal types, and Fire Types are so common in the metagame that they are already prepared for; if not using Flash Fire. By using Chandelure's coverage movepool, it is unable to break through multiple special tanks, which can retaliate with an OHKO. Hidden Power Fighting on Chandelure does not do it much justice; It fails to 3HKO Snorlax in some cases, and Snorlax can return an OHKO with Crunch.

    Point 3; regarding few offensive checks to Chandelure; the argument is invalid. I can list 10 out of the top of my head. Sharpedo, Flygon, Heracross, Mienshao, Darmanitan, Azumarill, Nidoking, Weavile, Mismagius, Zoroak. True, most of the pokemon on this list are revenge killers, but there are more offensive checks to Chandelure that you do justice to. Something that <10% usage cannot be considered an offensive check? Fair enough. But what do you mean by only 8.6% of the metagame only able to check it? The fact of the matter is that Mienshao, Heracross, and Darmanitan(I think) are common enough to warrant a "Checked" Stamp on Chandelure itself. Not to mention, the examples I listed above aren't very obscure either. If you add up the percentages together, I'll bet my Chaos Emerald that that number falls above 10%, and I dare say 20%.


    As we can see, Chandelure is very much checkable at its present moment, and with very common metagame threats to boot. It is true that Chandelure OHKOs or 2HKOs many pokemon easily; but what about other threats such as Mienshao or Darmanitan which share this same trait as well? It is not very good to have such tunnel vision and cherry picking.

    However, I think it should be unanimous that Chandelure be banned when its Shadow Tag is released. But that discussion is for a later date.



    EDIT: Koko ninja'd me

    PS: If stealth rocks aren't on Chandy's side then it should go without saying that there should not be any SRs or spikes on the opponent's team either(Snorlax or whatever example); its a borked argument when you assume no rocks on chandy but full spikes on snorlax's
  11. cim

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    Honestly, in my opinion Chandelure being banned won't reduce Snorlax usage much. It's just too good and useful against basically any special attacker in the tier. It's also hard to trap and / or cripple and is just much more of a threat than, say, Umbreon or whatever.

    This is one instance where I'd actually kinda like to see a Suspect ladder or mini-tournament or something. The prevailing opinion is that Chandelure ruins the metagame by over-constraining teambuilding.

    Of Chandelure's flaws, I think one of the biggest ones that hasn't been mentioned yet is that it's *predictable*, and that a surprise set isn't necessarily the end of the world. Ooh, you tricked me with a Sub + Flame Charge set? Yeah, any reasonable Scarfer is still faster than you... Oh man, you were actually a Choice Specs attacker? In some scenarios that makes switching in easier... I'm not saying he's not broken because of this, but this is an aspect of Chandelure I'd like to hear more discussion on.
  12. shiranai

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    Since you mentioned me, I'll say some things here.
    I already used Flame Charge Chandelure, and it is kinda mediocre: yeah, after a Flame Charge it can reach the speed of a Scarf set, and it get Life Orb boost or Leftovers recovery, but using Flame Chage with Chandelure is almost like spinning hazards, you lose offensive momentum (way less than spinning, I know, but you still lose), also at +1 all the Scarfers that would revenge either choiced sets will still be able to revenge the chandelier. A Sub Flame Charge set means you'll need to drop a coverage move, and large movepool is something that makes Chand the threat it is, and setting a Subs in such a set is a waste, since Snorlax will still wall you (and Snorlax is a good answer to Raikou and Zapdos too).
    The Trick Room set suffers from what every TR team suffer: outside TR the team is slow. Also, unlike the Slow brothers and Cofagrigus, Chandelure doesn't have the bulk to set a Trick Room and start to sweep and still is quite fast for a TR sweeper (Cofagrigus, Snorlax, Rhyperior and Slowbro are all "faster" than Chandelure under TR and can revenge kill it, and they are also quite common in the tier too since all them are top30). TR Chand, at least, has a point of being able to deal with all its offensive counters since they would outspeed Chandelure normaly.
    And without a choice item Chandelure won't be able to deal with most special walls of the tier. Trust me, most Snorlax wouldn't mind getting a Life Orb, and Porygon2 can do some damage with a Orb boost too.

    If Chandelure counters wasn't so common in the tier, than it would be definitely ban worth. Offensive counters are simply the most common scarfers of the tier named Mienshao, Heracross and Flygon, while the defensive counters are named Snorlax and Porygon2 (which both can deal well against Zapdos and Raikou, both common threats around) and bulky waters at all, something most teams carry with or without Chandelure as long as Victini and Darmanitan remains in the tier.
  13. Yamborski

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    I would appreciate it if one of the tiering leaders (or just mods, whatever you are) would not try to skew the facts just to present their argument.

    You think Snorlax is the main reason? Yes, maybe it is. But is it the only one? Do you forget that Roserade, Raikou, Zapdos, Nidoking, (Rain Dance) Kingdra, Mew, Togekiss, Empoleon, and Shaymin exist? Not to mention the many, many, MANY Pokemon Snorlax can check? Snorlax is extremely good.

    IMO Chandelure is not an issue. It hits hard and has few counters but this isn't much different from a lot of other UU threats. Victini, Heracross, etc. Chandelure is slow, frail, weak to all hazards and once you know its set it is much easier to handle. If you have trouble with a certain Chandelure set try to avoid giving it free switch ins.

    Also, what do you mean don't always assume Stealth Rocks are up? Of course they aren't always but like it or not Chandelure is SR weak and more often than not they will be on the field. It is a factor in its long term survivability.
  14. Warb

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    Oddly enough, I was never afraid of Chandelure when running this team
    .
    The choice sets are kinda easy to gain momentum off and from what I experienced when playing against Chandelure is that most of the time it kills something and then gets killed in return. Then again, I was using mixed Houndoom for one month straight so I might be biased on this matter :x

    Though, seeing as how it kinda forces you to have at least some kind of check against it makes it a tad centralizing I guess.
  15. Ernesto

    Ernesto is a motionless pedophile
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    I don't really get your reasoning, kokoloko. Snorlax has been used to check Raikou and Zapdos since Gen II, now it so happens to also be the best answer to Chandelure and you think that's bad because it restricts teambuilding? With that logic, DH Project players won't be able to succeed because Lax can't be used, right? I'm sorry, but that's how I understand your post, feel free to refute me later.
    Chandelure is an incredible threat, mainly due to the fact that it gets some good switch-in opportunities on the most common Fighting-types which have to rely on Stone Edge to KO it, which in return can give free switch-in opportunities to another offensive mon such as Flygon. That by no means makes Chandelure overpowered, but I'll try to follow up a line of thought.

    60/90/90 defenses aren't crappy when combined with its good set of resistances and the fact that its low Speed allows it to invest in HP more easily. That 145 Special Attack could mean that it's an incredible wallbreaker and makes stall unviable for the thought that very few slower mons can take two hits and KO back, right? That was the reasoning used by many on Queen's suspect discussion for RU, a tier which has banned many Pokemon over the years in order to balance stuff, but ultimately decided on keeping Queen. Now I know that the playerbase is different and I shouldn't make comparisons, but try to think this: Queen is a powerhouse with an effective base 112 Special Attack when using Sheer Force-boosted moves, has many resistances similarly to Chandy but is immune to Toxic, Thunder Wave, and Life Orb recoil on top of that, while also resisting SR. Chandelure is much less of a threat to defensive teams, because even with that impressive 427 Special Attack stat, it takes full damage from all entry hazards, is hurt by Toxic and Thunder Wave and takes LO recoil, though it can use Pain Split to minimize that. So the biggest thing it has against defensive teams really is Trick and that massive firepower—which is still not enough in many situations—, because unlike Nidoqueen/Nidoking, it doesn't have to be attacked directly to be disposed of.

    Now that that's out of the way, we should then look how Chandelure fares against Offense, since Stall can beat it without having to attack it—whether Stall is viable to begin with is another discussion. Now, it's true that very few offensive mons can switch into its Specs boosted moves, Flygon for example only has a 1 in 16 chance to survive a Shadow Ball after SR and KO back with Earthquake. Therefore many offensively-minded players will turn to CB Lax as their answer to Lure. Is that really that bad? Very few stuff can take two neutral STAB Returns to being with, and Snorlax makes a great offensive check to a myriad of other threats, particularly Raikou and Zapdos, so I'm betting Snorlax would still be useful on offensive teams outside of the premise 'Because fuck Chandelure'. However, it's true that outside of CB Lax and maybe Houndoom—which has the problem of being rather predictable, I really pity it because it would be one of the better Pursuit trappers due to that WoW immunity :\—very few things can switch into its STAB moves, however Flygon switches into Fire Blast without dying 90% of the time barring crits, Heracross has an impressive 43.75% chance of surviving a Specs Shadow Ball after SR—that's a neutral hit coming off an effective 640 Special Attack—, and many things can revenge kill Chandelure, with the added benefit of some being able to Pursuit trap it. I used Specs in my example here because it's the hardest thing to switch into, Scarf is more easily dealt with by Offensive teams due to the fact that base 80 Speed doesn't cut it against Offense, while SubSplit is really nice, but I can't see it working when it's hard as is to switch into Offensive teams, outside of Choice-locked moves or after a kill—not the best scenario. Now I'm painting this just because it'd seem as if Snorlax is the only thing able to switch into it, it's the only thing that can come in against Specs nearly risk-free, but not the only check to it, which was the reason many used to not give Chandelure S rank. Moreover, there was the thought that, once it had gotten a kill, it could be fodder for something else to set up and win a match.

    Notice how, in my entire post, I didn't mention Porygon2. Why? Because the best thing it has against Chandy is entirely dependant on the Chandy user, and leaving your ability to counter a Pokemon in the hands of the other player is not something I enjoy. Moreover, Defensive Duck hates losing its Eviolite, so FF version can still beat Porygon2 with Trick+HP Fighting:
    Code:
    252+ SpA Chandelure Hidden Power Fighting vs. 252 HP / 80+ SpD Porygon2: 158-188 (42.24 - 50.26%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    Not exactly what I'd call a 'counter'.

    All in all, Chandelure is indeed suspect-worthy so I have no issues with that, but I'd never think it's flat-out broken, not even that restraining since Snorlax is just THAT good for any kind of team. I might change my mind if I find that not using Snorlax makes me completely weak to it—especially when it's wallbreaking for Raikou—, but I somehow doubt it. If anything, the biggest problem with it is that while it's alive, I have to think twice before using Heracross's STAB moves, or locking Snorlax into Return, but that's the same problem with many other Pokemon, so that will never be enough of a reason for banning something.

    Show Hide
    Since DH project has began and Snorlax isn't allowed, I'm gonna try out Moofensive Miltank with Thick Fat, she outspeeds Chandelure, survives two Fire Blasts from Scarf if needed and OHKOes with Earthquake after SR. Of course, she's not that viable since giving up Scrappy means she struggles against Ghost-types, and she isn't that great of a check to other Fire-types, but I'll have to try her out either way. While she's only borderline viable, who knows, maybe I'll find her to be better in practice than in paper...


    EDIT: below, I never meant to say that not attacking Chandelure is good, but I meant that unlike Nidoking/Queen it can be worn down by switching in and out. Also, relying on Specs HP Fighting isn't precisely good, I'd say Trick+HP Fighting is better since you're not locking yourself into a weakling move (and why in heaven's name would you lock yourself into HP Fighting against Umbreon? o.O That's quite a faux pas imo). Either way, that point is moot since I doubt pure Stall can do much in this metagame, but yea, Chandelure could be worn down more easily than other stuff. No one's arguing about Kaleidoscope being great to prevent SR from ever being up—although if it can't prevent it, it'll suffer a lot since it has 3 SR weaks—, or how Blastoise could spin even easier against Stall teams. What I was trying to say was that it was easier to deal with that other stuff for Stall, since pretty much the only thing it had on its favor was Trick plus its amazing Special Attack. Sorry if I didn't make myself clear.

    And again, I doubt Chandelure forces you to use Snorlax. As I said before, then DH project would have to be revised or kept on hold until they decided to ban Chandy since it would otherwise win every single match without Snorlax on the way, right? Btw, neither Rhyperior nor Queen are that reliable since they fear HP Grass or HP Flying/HP Ice/Extrasensory— otherwise they're pretty cool—, and I'm pretty sure SubCM Raikou can beat non-Analytic Porygon2.

    In the end, I was just trying to look into kokoloko's reasoning to say it was flat-out broken. I won't argue that banning it would make the metagame more diverse because I'm trying to talk about facts here, not assumptions just for the sake of having a good argument, so I can't really say if a meta without Chandy would be better or worse. It would probably be better, but is it worth banning it just because of that? And then, is it the biggest thing that's preventing us from reaching a balanced, 'fun' meta?
  16. TPO3

    TPO3 Never practice; Always perform.

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    Yeah, Snorlax does also counter Zapdos and Raikou and stuff. However, so does SpDef Rhyperior. So does Nidoqueen. So does Porygon2. However, there is nothing else in the tier that counters Chandelure the way Snorlax does. Chandelure most definitely does restrict teambuilding because there is simply nothing else in the tier that can switch in as consistently. Zapdos and Raikou don't restrict teambuilding because they don't FORCE you to use Snorlax the same way that Chandelure does, you can use plenty of other options.

    Really? Stall will never have to attack against Chandelure? I find that very hard to believe. Kokoloko's team Kaleidoscope should be proof enough (like he said earlier.) Yeah, if the user of Chandelure is stupid enough to let you set up Stealth Rock, 3 layers of Spikes, and potentially get Toxic'd, I would agree that Stall isn't going to have to attack. However, like you can see on Kokoloko's team, you don't always get the chance to set up hazards without giving pokemon (see: Venomoth) free turns to set up. It's not just with Koko's team either. With offensive teams using pokemon like Froslass and Azelf to set up Stealth Rock/Spikes, they can just taunt you to prevent hazards from going up at all early game. you can use turns to get them up later, but you risk letting them set up. Also, Blastoise is pretty popular. It might not be the best pokemon in the world (In fact it is definitely used too much.) But it literally spins against whatever the hell it wants if you use foresight. If you pair it with something like Blastoise, it's going to keep hazards away pretty consistently. This, in addition to the fact that Specs Chandelure literally 2HKO's the meta. Specs HP Fighting even takes care of your Snorlax and Umbreon, so it will break down stall pretty effectively.

    I do agree with most of the arguments of Chandelure vs Offense though. Chandelure isn't that fast, its typing doesn't let it take many hits, etc. Offensive teams (when built properly) also don't give Chandelure very many opportunities to switch in. I do agree as well with the fact that this metagame is offensively-based today. However, Balanced and Stall teams are pretty much forced to run Snorlax, and that creates some redundancy in the metagame. Just because the metagame isn't based around Stall and Balanced, i don't think we can just overlook them and say "the meta is offensive, so Chandelure isn't broken and therefore shouldn't be banned." I think Chandelure ultimately limits the pokemon we can use on balanced and stall teams (and to an extent, offensive teams even. You have to build them in such a way that Chandelure does not get any turns to switch in.), and that banning it would ultimately result in a more diverse and more fun metagame.
  17. Cesterp

    Cesterp

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    To be quite honest, I was surprised to find a Chandelure suspect discussion when I logged on. I rarely ever build teams with specific threats in mind (I mean, I have ways to counter fighting types, electric types, etc.), and every time I ever see a Chandelure, I tend to think, "Oh, that's easy to deal with." In fact, I'd say that I'm more worried about a Snorlax (Chandelure's true counter) than I am about a Chandelure when I see what I'm up against.

    The issue with it is that it's a one-trick pony most of the time. The surprise factor sets are interesting (Flame Charge, Sashed TR, etc.), but they don't devastate teams, nor are they an end game situation unless your team has been weakened to the point that any other sweeper could come in and clean up. Once you find out what set you're dealing with, you just have to be aware of what gives it free turns and make sure something can take at least one hit in case you screw up.

    Offensive checks include (but are not limited to) Flygon, Darmanitan, Krookodile, Nidoking, Kingdra, Honchkrow, Scrafty, Azumarill, Empoleon, Sharpedo, Tornadus, Bisharp, Zoroark, Weavile, and Houndoom. All of them can either outspeed (through base stats or priority) and OHKO or take a hit and OHKO Chandelure. There's a whole extra list of stuff that can outspeed and kill Chandelure if it has some form of prior damage (say, Stealth Rocks?), but I'm not going to bother to include them.

    Defensively... you've got Snorlax, P2, and anything that resists a choice locked hit. Admittedly, if you're running a defensive team and facing a Flame Charge set, you might have some problems, but 145SpAtk is underwhelming when you're expecting to OHKO defensive threats all the time. Just having something that can live a hit and then hit back can typically spell the end for Chandelure, simply because it's just not that bulky.

    So yeah, it's much easier dealt with offensively and may be a part of why the tier is so heavily offensive. However, I don't think Chandelure is the sole reason or even among the top contributors to the problem (if you can call it that?) of a lot of offense. Hell, the fact that UU is so very offensive is the reason in particular that I enjoy it and only ever really participate in UU events and battles. But as it stands, if we want to consider the offensive nature of UU being a problem, Chandelure is definitely not the first thing we need to be looking at.
  18. kd24

    kd24 yo daddy musta been a drug dealer? why, cuz you're dope
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    i don't think chandelure is any threat at all. this post might be really short or really long depending on how i ramble. im writing it on the fly

    basically, it really is horrifically overrated. don't get me wrong, i think it's still good, but its hard to build a team that flat out loses to chandelure. there's too many faster threats or defensive threats that deal with different sets pretty well and while this makes chandelure an excellent teammate for a lot of teams, i'm not seeing chandelure really cause the problems people identify.

    like sash tr? flame charge? these are gimmicks that i spotted in the above post and im not trying to call you out but when are these things really performing any kind of game defining role. if your team loses to tr sash chandy, it was going to lose to tr anyway. flame charge is highly inconsistent and takes chandys best asset in my opinion which is subsplit away from him. i really think we're making a bunch of commotion out of nothing here.

    people have already listed what stops chandy but how about the fact that its sr and spikes weak, and that it can't switch in to almost any attacker. even special attackers like shaymin can run earth power if they wanted to surprise kill it - chandy is that slow and that frail.

    can it be an effective revenge killer? an effective damage spreader? an excellent teammate? a flat out sweeper vs slower teams?

    yes yes yes and yes! i can acknowledge this and still say emphatically that is simply isn't broken in the metagame. frail and slow is not a great combination to have when your only solution is running gimmicks like flame charge (again, this just screams WILDLY INCONSISTENT to me).

    honestly i wonder if a lot of this comes from the fact that chandelure + hazards can be tough to break through for teams relying on spinning to do anything. and yes, i admit it is because chandelure hits like a truck with stab shadow ball and fire-move but honestly, it can be played around easily via smart switching and just attacking outright. maybe its time for teams to make a shift towards not relying on spin at all costs and focus more on offensive ("offensive" stall can even be a viable option with a good pursuiter + blastoise)

    these are pretty rambled thoughts but i just don't see it here at all and im honestly shocked it even got nominated over some of the bigger threats atm.
  19. FlareBlitz

    FlareBlitz This was never a story that would have a happy end
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    I think Koko brought up a good point about defining what we consider "broken" to mean, first and foremost.

    I would propose that focusing solely on Chandelure's power is a waste of all our times: there are stronger Pokemon in UU (Darmantian), there are better offensive pivots, (CB Flygon / CB Crobat), and there are Pokemon more able to sweep through teams (Kingdra, Mew). These are all considered to be some of the best Pokemon in UU, but there hasn't been nearly the support for banning them that we have for Chandelure. We have to think about why this is, and whether it actually does merit a ban for Chandelure over those Pokemon.

    I personally feel that the reason for Chandelure's relative dominance is its incredibly relevant set of resistances. If Chandelure were Fire / Dark, for example, it would probably be languishing in mid to low UU despite maintaining essentially the same offensive presence. However, as it is, Chandelure is one of two viable offensive ghosts in the entire tier (Froslass and Sableye are support) and given the pervasiveness of choiced Fighting and Fire type attackers, its very presence on a team is incredibly threatening. Taken in combination with its immediate and overwhelming offensive presence (something Cofagrigus lacks), it's easy to see why so many people run into problems with the thing.

    However, I am still unconvinced that this is a metagame balance problem; I personally feel it's more a metagame stagnation problem. In my view, UU has achieved a state of balance where a number of very powerful threats all keep each other in check and a number of niches become available to be filled by good-but-not-great Pokemon. This is why much of RU and even some of NU is so viable in the tier. Unfortunately, one of the issues with a balanced metagame is that metagame development tends to be very slow. People are hesitant to adapt new strategies because the old standards are all so comfortable, and we eventually see Pokemon which are perfectly adapted to their particular niche as being "broken" - an excellent example would be Venusaur in DPP UU.

    To me, for a Pokemon to be broken, the metagame and teambuilding has to revolve around it to a notable extent and potentially to the exclusion of the rest of the tier (see: Staraptor, Sand, Chansey). The metagame does not revolve around Chandelure; Chandelure has simply found a spot right in the middle to occupy. A good way to tell the difference - when you build a team, do you worry about Chandelure sweeping you more than, say, Heracross or Flygon or Zapdos sweeping you? I can't imagine many of us would say "Yes".
  20. reachzero

    reachzero the pastor of disaster
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    I'm pretty sure I have seen Snorlax on every team I have faced for far in SPL, and used Snorlax on every team I have used in SPL except one (that team had Chansey, and might have been a little weak to the rare SubCM Chandelure). That's not an accident. Having used Specs Chandelure quite a bit on the ladder, I don't understand at all why people would say it is in any way easy to switch into--I have routinely faced teams where it 2HKOed every member of the team with Shadow Ball alone. CB Lax is pretty popular, and if you hit a CB Lax with Specs HP Fighting, you may well put it in serious danger from Zapdos, Raikou, etc.; the worst nightmare for many, many teams. Realistically, I haven't seen much of anything other than Snorlax actually use Pursuit. I will definitely grant that Snorlax is a big deal for Chandelure to overcome. That being said, right now Chandelure are not exactly going out of their way to beat Snorlax--Life Orb with Shadow Ball/Fire Blast/Will-o-Wisp/Pain Split would cripple just about every Snorlax set there is. I will concede that Trace P2 is a good counter for most sets, especially if it invests heavily in SpD (Flame Body Chandelure is not as good, don't let anyone tell you otherwise), yet P2 is not a particularly good Pokemon in this specific metagame, so I would not consider it a really significant factor. Compounding the issue, I see a lot of Chandelure users using way more speed and way less bulk than makes any sense--Chandelure has no real reason to go faster than 207 to beat Suicune; nothing between that and 259 is something that Chandelure really needs to outspeed (220 max if you're worried about max speed Modest Empoleon). With HP investment, Chandelure is quite a bit bulkier than most people give it credit for.

    I guess I would say that I'd "undecided" about Chandelure--it "should" be a problem, and probably would be if the people I face had any real idea how to use it. When I use it, I usually love it. Most people I face use it really, really wrong. So it's hard for me to say very objectively how powerful it is. I do know that at the highest level of play, everyone prepares for it very specifically (i.e., uses Snorlax) and could easily be totally screwed over by doing so (by an anti-Snorlax Chandelure set).
  21. Squidsauce

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    I've always hated chandelure, and consider it one of the many reasons why UU sucks. I'm very much on the same page as koko as it forces me to run snorlax.

    It's strong enough to sweep with scarf, but it's even more annoying with something like specs. Ghost/fire is near perfect coverage. It's harder to play around than heracross, because heracross does not have that sexy coverage. Read that again. It's harder to play around than heracross.

    Let me make a good comparison. Chandelure is like staraptor. STARAPTOR!!!

    Do y'all even remember that? Many people probably weren't even here back then. They are basically the same pokemon offensively:
    -Insane power with 2 coverage moves (shadow ball+fireblast, brave bird+close combat)
    -They both have basically one counter (snorlax, rhyperior respectively), which makes team building pretty awful and congested. Yes, if you go back, rhyperior used to be pretty damn popular.
    -Staraptor could "bypass" counters/checks with u-turn, while Chandy can do the same with trick.

    But the biggest similarity is how they are defensively:
    -weak to SR
    -can't switch into anything
    -better on paper than in use
    -no longevity (staraptor took recoil damage, chandelure can be pursuited)

    Yeah, both of these pokemon don't really deserve S rank. They don't pull results. It's hard to switch in, weak to SR and they don't last long, and they can't sweep at all (sometimes the scarf sets on both sweeped). But we banned staraptor, and for a very good reason.

    Cause they make the tier shit and force us to run stuff, and was just a bad presence in the metagame. Chandy broken IMO
    Or I'll wait for shadow tag to be released
  22. PTJon7

    PTJon7

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    The way I see it Chandelure isn't broken, and I don't get why people keep going on about having to run Snorlax, I've never used Snorlax or had a problem with Chandelure on any of my teams. Due to its slow speed even with a scarf it is revenge killed by any other scarfer in the tier. Specs is even easier to revenge kill, since base 80 speed is not very fast for a sweeper.

    I don't think Chandelure's presence in the metagame is unhealthy, its like pretty much every other power-house fire type in the tier. They all have access to a very powerful attack (Overheat, V-Create, Flare Blitz) and other good coverage moves.

    But in the end I don't care if Chandelure leaves or not. It may be interesting to see if it actually does impact anything, which I doubt it would. And anyway, Chandelure will get banned as soon as Shadow Tag comes out.
  23. Godsend

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    There are a couple of pretty key differences. One, Houndoom, Milotic, Umbreon, specially defensive Arcanine and Porygon2 make good switches into Chand. Worst that happens? They get tricked and lose a significant amount of speed/power making the revenge kill or other check or whatever easier to get it. The second is the speed. There are a very large amount of Pokémon that sit between the 80 and 100 base speeds. That makes a huge difference. If you kill my Rhyperior and you have a Staraptor, my team is going to get blown to bits, because there are few much fewer UU Pokémon that can outspeed a base 100 than an 80. If you kill my Chand check/counter, shit like Flygon, Shaymin, Kingdra, Heracross, even offensive Roserade can come in and finish Chand off. A much more minor difference, but a hindrance to Chand nonetheless is that Chand is effected by (Toxic)Spikes.


    If you couldn't tell, I don't believe that Chandelure is broken. It's something you have to prepare for (sort of) but it's not going to flat out 6-0 you or even usually blast big enough holes in a team to warrant eliminating it from the tier. As long as you run things that don't let Chand in for free (odds are you do) you'll be fine.


    I'll give an outwardly broken, but still semi-feasible example in Haxorus (look at the stats). What in UU could switch into Haxorus? With nearly 400 attack with a neutral nature, some of the best single typing in the game and access to Mold Breaker and Earthquake, the only things that could even hope to not be two hit ko'd would be maybe Steelix and Rhyperior. Then, we add in that it sits just above the base 95 speed tier, an important one in UU, and again, pure Dragon typing with decent defensive stats, and you get something that will destroy teams that run both Rhyperior and Steelix. In UU, against Haxorus, prediction just doesn't work. I use Haxy as an example is because, to me, these are the things that we need to look for when banning. Chand is nothing like that. Things can, you know, switch in. Prediction can actually... work. There are enough things that outspeed and KO it. Staraptor had the crucial balance of speed and power with decent enough bulk coupled with Intimidate to do stuff and was rightfully banned. On the defensive side, Chansey did check an incredible amount of things and supported the team incredible well. Ban hammer worthy.


    Sorry for the wall of text, just got thinking. In summary, I just don't think Chand can sweep or make holes in teams well enough to be ban worthy.
  24. TPO3

    TPO3 Never practice; Always perform.

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    So after attempting (and not succeeding at) building a few teams for the Dark Horse project, it might be just me, but I really feel limited to what I can and can't use. Since we're not allowed to use S-level threats in the Dark Horse project, that eliminates my ability to use Snorlax, which is pretty hazardous as far as building a successful balanced team goes. Yeah, I understand that there are several offensive checks, as well as pursuit-users in the tier, but if Chandy gets even one free chance to switch in, it pretty much gets to kill something. Specs and Life Orb Chandelure pretty much 2HKO the entire tier, Milotic with heavy SpDef investments being the sole exception. Specs Chandy even nabs a 2HKO against Umbreon, the "premier" special wall, if you don't count Snorlax.

    As far as Pursuiters are concerned, none of them can switch in to Chandelure's fire STAB, with the exception of Snorlax and Flash Fire Houndoom, which sucks outside of pursuiting Chandelure. Houndoom also gets roflpwnt by HP Fighting, even from the "weak" ScarfLure. Now you might get lucky and U-turn out of Chandelure and into your Weavile (while praying they aren't scarfed.), but any smart player is going to play conservatively once they see a pursuiter on the other team. They won't just mindlessly switch it in, and potentially give you a chance. This probably means that your pursuiter is only going to come in after you sac something. Being required to sac something just to grab the pursuit KO seems kind of overcentralizing to me.

    I understand the point that you two are trying to make. Yeah, you don't build teams that lose directly to Chandelure. No, I don't worry about a Chandelure sweep. But that's because that's not Chandelure's job. In this aspect (and ONLY in this aspect) it's like Gothitelle. No, you don't build teams that flat out lose to Gothitelle, nor do you worry about Gothitelle sweeps. It was the team of 5 pokemon behind Gothitelle that you worried about. Gothitelle came in, got its one free kill, put that little bit of extra stress on your team, and caused it to break down. Chandelure is the same way. If it gets one free turn to switch in, that extra stress is very easy to build up on your team. I don't worry about a Chandelure sweep. I worry about a Yanmega sweep once the Chandy has sufficiently weakened my Snorlax.

    Chandelure does find it hard to switch in, however... once it's in, there's just as few offensive threats that can switch into it. Chandelure stresses even offensive teams to the point where you have to be stacked against Chandelure, or it gets its one free kill. If you don't believe me, look at Kaleidoscope. This is the only extremely successful team I could find without Snorlax on it, and literally all 6 members synergize together to stack up against Chandelure. Chandy cannot switch into ANY of those pokemon, and even if it gets in for free, anything it does has consequences due to the 2 setup pokemon. If a team has to be that stacked against Chandelure to make sure it stays under pressure, I think it's safe to call that overcentralizing.

    You might be thinking "...well that just proves my point. Offensive teams don't let Chandelure switch in??" Sure. If you want to go through the ridiculous amount of time and planning to stack literally your entire team of 6 Pokemon against Chandelure, then I guess you're set. But what if I don't want to use EP Shaymin on my offensive team? I have to, otherwise it's Chandelure switch-in bait. Specs Pory-Z? Unless I spam Dark Pulse, it's Chandelure bait. If I don't use Snorlax, it significantly limits what I can and can't use on the rest of my team. The fact that Reach hasn't seen a single team without Snorlax in the SPL (save for the week Chansey was legal) seems like pretty solid evidence to me of how influential and centralizing it is.
  25. spuds4ever

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    Agreeing with all the points made by Pokemazter really. Couldn't have put it better myself really. I think the only main point that hasn't been mentioned already is that while chandelure is extremely threatening to balanced, bulky offense, and stall teams, literally forcing them to use lax or at least specially defensive pory, its choice scarf set is also really dangerous to offensive teams. Simply put, you can't safely switch in to it and without out-predicting your opponent (which is hard seeing how ludicrously easy chandelure is to use), something is going to die. Sure, you might be able to set up on the move it's locked into, there are quite a lot of good set up sweepers that resist fire (kingdra, TR victini) and several that resist ghost (togekiss, empoleon) but the point still stands that it has still killed something. TPO3's comparison to Gothitelle, while not perfect, I think is quite a good example. Chandelure, unless you have snorlax or your opponent really can't use it, will very often kill something, even if it's not the most obviously appropriate set against your team, i.e, substitute LO sets can be a complete menace to offensive teams if it gets a chance to switch in (not hard with that excellent selection of resistances for UU) and likewise the choice scarf can make a mess cleaning up a balanced team.

    I personally think that chandelure is quite a limiting factor to building in UU and while it may not be necessarily broken as some have argued. It does have one hard counter and each set does have its boundaries, but I think UU would be a much better place without it.
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