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UU Suspect Discussion - Chandelure

Discussion in 'BW UU' started by kokoloko, Feb 12, 2013.

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  1. Pocket

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    Snorlax and Porygon2 are certainly not necessary on all teams. Offensive teams can pretty much set up Rocks and other hazards and just force Chandelure out with faster mons to render it useless after 1 switch-in. There are plenty of offensive checks, too, such as your own Chandelure (one reason to go max Speed Chandelure), Arcanine, Houndoom, Flygon, Kingdra, Suicune, Rhyperior, etc. I can certainly find worse offenders of restrictions on teambuilding than Chandelure.

    Chandelure to me is analogous to Nidoqueen in RU for me; it packs a huge punch and is immediately threatening, but the metagame has sufficient amount of resources to handle said threat without overly limiting teambuilding options. Except, Nidoqueen in RU is far worse than Chandelure in UU.
  2. RabidChipmunk

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    My question in regards to this whole suspect test, and this is actually a question-question and not a rhetorical question, is "why Chandelure?" As in, what does Chandelure do explicitly that makes it a candidate for suspect? Is it it because he's a hard-hitting Fire-type? Because he's not unique in that regard -- UU is well off for ridiculously hard-hitting Fire-types. We've got Darmanitan, who is faster than Chandelure, and Victini, who has better bulk and speed than either Chandelure or Darmanitan and has Bolt Strike to get around Water-types.

    The usual remark I'm seeing in regards to banning Chandelure is "he always gets a kill on something!" To which I'd like to reply, "So?" The aforementioned Victini and Darmanitan also manage to easily get kills thanks to the utter insanity that is the power in their attacks, and moving away from Fire-types, there's also Pokemon like Heracross, Kingdra, Mienshao and Mew who are also good at almost always getting a kill. That's just the kind of tier UU is: one filled with incredibly powerful offensive threats. To me, Chandelure isn't the most broken among them. It's certainly powerful, yes, and capable of real damage, but there are lots of Pokemon in UU who fit that description, and Chandelure is simply another one of them.

    (Honestly I was hoping for a Heracross discussion instead but that's just because I'm incredibly biased :x)
  3. silenced

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    Except the switch-ins your proposing require another pokemon to be sacked in the process, or are good for one time only.

    I'll break this down a bit because I don't think people are giving this much thought at all. So a few things...

    Firstly, SR DOES NOT PREVENT CHANDELURE FROM DOING IT'S JOB! Now I'm sorry I had to resort to all caps to write that, but it'd be nice if people realised this. The phrase you are looking for is that SR LIMITS the number of times chandelure can perform the job it is most well known for, which is blowing big gaping holes in teams. W/out a pursuit user, that at least gives chandelure 4 times to wreak havoc, possibly 5 depending on HP evs/ivs/did it come in before SR went up?

    Secondly, lets have a look at some of the offensive/defensive checks you and others have listed here, and I'll try and explain why I would not be convinced that it is a counter-argument. For reference, chandelure's attacks will be argued from the view point of a neutral nature, and either as choice specs, or not choice specs (all other sets, i'll exclude LO for the time being here). Also, for non-specs sets, consider them having forced something out into one of your checks and being either scarfed or having put up a sub, as these are the two most common sets chandy will run if not with specs

    -Kingdra (0HP, 4SpD): is 2HKO'd by shadow ball on the switch by non-specs lure. Is potentially OHKO'd by specs lure if SR is up (requires very high damage roll though)
    -Flygon (0hp, 4SpD): is 2HKO'd by shadow ball on the switch by non-specs. Potentially OHKO'd by specs if SR up (high damage roll required). Can only switch into specs Fire blast safely once. Depending on damage rolls, the same may apply to other sets if SR is up
    -Rhyperior (248hp, 244SpD): I will pay this for non-specs sets if energy ball is not run. is 2HKO'd by HP fighting/Shadow ball on the switch by specs (may avoid this if calm natured, I used adamant nature as per the on-site analysis)
    -Arcanine (0hp, 4SpD): OHKO'd by shadow ball after SR by the specs set, 2hko'd by fire blast if ability is not flash fire. 2HKO'd by shadow ball from non-specs, also possibly by fire blast if SR is up.
    -Suicune (252HP, 4SpD): Non specs can only potentially 2HKO with energy ball and if SR is up. Specs can 2HKO with shadow ball depending on damage rolls and SR being up. Offensive set would be even more hard pressed than crocune and only have one safe switch.
    -Houndoom (0hp, 0SpD): OHKO'd by specs lure HP fighting regardless of SR, 2HKO'd by shadow ball if you mispredict with the pursuit/sucker punch mind game. OHKO'd potentially after SR by HP fighting from non-specs sets.
    -Umbreon (252hp, 252SpD+): can be 2HKO'd by fire blast on the switch unless you use protect (specs) and gone if switching in on SR, unless you use protect. Walls everything else though, so a reasonable choice.

    I haven't bothered to calculate for snorlax or P2 as they have both been proven to wall chandelure unless messed with by trick, or if flame body specs for P2. I'm also not bothering with either specially defensive milotic/specially defensive arcanine as suggested by godsend as they are either niche pokemon solely for chandelure, or outclassed in such a role.

    Also a side note: Can someone tell me how to do spoiler tags? I'd post calcs but this post is already pretty big right now.

    Basically, the short version of the problem with chandelure is that due to it's sky high SpA, anything not named P2 or Snorlax that cannot outrun 80 base speed timid becomes a potentially large liability to carry.

    One final edit, I hope: Actually I will say that of the suspects, I would've had mienshao as suspect, since thanks to U-turn + regenerator it actually has no strict counters, and only 3/4 reasonably safe checks in sableye, crobat, and maybe slowbro/amoongus
  4. kokoloko

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    I don't understand why people are being so short-sighted.

    There's a really fucking obvious difference between Chandelure and Darmanitan/Victini. Chandelure attacks from the special side; and yes, this is really fucking important. Darmanitan and physical Victini have additional hard counters in Rhyperior, Slowbro, and Slowking (who is also an amazing check to mixed Victini). The point I'm trying to make is that 1. Fire is a type that is typically resisted by physically defensive Pokemon, and 2. Chandelure has a really good secondary STAB with which to fuck many a potential check.

    So no, it wasn't just suspected because it hits hard as fuck, because even Mienshao hits harder. Its being suspected because many top players feel that it severely limits their options during teambuilding because it basically forces any balanced team to run Snorlax.

    Also, what in the actual fuck am I reading from people saying Chandelure doesn't have switch-in opportunities versus offense? Last I checked Fighting-types were like the primary source of hard-hitters in the tier, and those tend to be choiced a lot. In fact, if you're using offense, you're very likely using Choice Scarf Mienshao, who can't even do its job effectively while Chandelure is around. And what if it's scarfed itself? Then it outspeeds and O-2HKOs your whole team bar your own scarfer, which definitely can't switch in. Yeah, I'm sure it sucks against offense.

    Finally, can we stop bringing up irrelevant shit as potential Chandelure checks? SpD Arcanine stopped being a thing in DPP, while SpD Milotic and Houndoom in general are incredibly niche and should honestly be RU by now.
  5. Grim Gregg

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    I very much agree with what Flare said. Chandelure can only really be countered by Snorlax, but it's also very slow. So its success depends on what offensive threats your opponent has and if Chandy can get a good switch in. UU is the perfect fit for it in this respect. Here's a battle I had that illustrates this point-http://youtu.be/TMRps1xKJBc (I'm on the opponent's side btw). Chandelure was immune to 4 of his pokemon's STAB moves. So is it broken or just flourishing? I dunno
  6. Ernesto

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    kokoloko, that's something I'd talked about in my previous post. If you really think that it practically forces you to run Snorlax, and that makes your teams awfully similar—it always happens to me too—, isn't it a great opportunity to try and find another answer to it for the DH project? You're saying that some things mentioned are unviable or only fulfill that small niche, however, if they allow teams that can't or don't want to run Lax to check Chandelure, while you can spare a couple spots to check Zapdos+Raikou (I'd never run just Snorlax to beat them, I dunno the rest), doesn't that mean that Lure really doesn't restrain teambuilding as much?

    Atm, and while I got eight losses due to disconnects that forced me to make a new alt and refrain from playing for a while, my DH team has both mixed Houndoom and Offensive Miltank with Thick Fat. Sure, they both die to Specs HP Fighting, and Miltank dies to Scarf HP Fighting too—Houndoom doesn't if I can keep SR off the field, which as you said, IS possible without a spinner—, that forces Chandy to lock itself into a 70 bp move which gives free switches to a ton of stuff, most importantly? OTR Cofag. So yea, HP Fighting on Choice sets isn't of my liking and I can easily take advantage of that to set up a win con like that, and I've never seen HP Fighting outside of Choice sets so I guess that's a pretty solid answer to it. So even if I'm using niche Pokes—and perfectly viable in UU, mind you—, I can still check Zapdos, Raikou, Kingdra, Heracross, Mienshao, Victini, and Darmanitan with my other four Pokes, Houndoom's priority is much-appreaciated sometimes, and Miltank is a good Scald absorber thanks to Heal Bell and that powerful LO STAB Double-Edge. My team is fun to play, or was while I could use it, and even though I feel I'm still weak to a couple of stuff—mainly OTR Cofag, curiously—and would like to change it, it goes to show that Chandelure doesn't restrain teambuilding that much.

    I guess what I'm trying to say is, don't feel like you can't use a Pokemon because it's weak to a coverage move, try to take advantage of that by making the opponent hesitate about using it. If Chandy has to lock itself into HP Fighting to kill Houndoom, but that allows you to set up a win condition with another Pokemon, use it. If the Chandy user is intelligent, they'll refrain from using that weak move that is resisted by four types and one is completely immune.

    And while I'm at it, even though it gets to my nerves to lose so often and not being able to do anything about it, the remaining matches I didn't get disconnected—more than twenty— were the most fun I'd had in a while, because I wasn't forced to use the same four Pokemon over and over again that would make me play almost systematically. After all, Pokemon is a game and we play it for fun, I like facing Chandy because of the mindgames both players are forced to play.
    And I'd very much appreciate it if, when voting, you ban Chandelure because you tried every replacement of Snorlax and saw that not running it really made you weaker to all the other threats, which would mean you found Chandelure broken. If you ban it because it makes the metagame 'less fun', then you'll be making a terrible mistake because your perception of what's fun is different than that of the next guy; so yea, if you're to ban it, just make sure you've found it really broken. That would at least mean that our Senate works. Thank you.
  7. spuds4ever

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    I can't really say much else other than what Koko has already said really for supporting chandelure's brokeness. In my experience too, I find I have to run at least strong fire resistances on my team where one would usually be enough solely because of chandelure. If there was no chandelure, people could get away with only having to run swampert or rhyperior but chandelure just forces you to use something like snorlax on many teams.

    For the record, I don't think miltank can work as a replacement to snorlax, serious 4MSS (especially if you're not running scrappy, in which case it's not a snorlax replacement at all), much weaker stats, it is just too inferior, and don't even get me started on houndoom (which isn't a bad pokemon, just can't function as a snorlax replacement at all really). You even said so your self that they both die to HP fighting which leads on to this:

    I'm sorry but this is a pretty poor argument. From what I understand, you're basically saying "yes, it kills loads of stuff and you have no guarentee of survival if you don't run snorlax, but you can use it's choice-locked coverage moves as set-up bait". This is more a dig at choice items than chandelure. For example, look at genesect in OU. Loads of stuff could set up on its non-stab ice beams and thunderbolts, did that make it not broken?

    In a nut-shell, Chandelure limits team-building too much in my view to be considered "not broken".
  8. Ernesto

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    No, what I meant was particularly about HP Fighting because it's easier to take advantage of. It's very different from its STAB moves, since that only makes it not be on par to other S rank threats, that doesn't make it less powerful. Locking yourself into HP Fighting is something that you should think twice before doing, and good players can use that to their advantage—that's the part about the mindgames.

    Man, are you saying I suggested Miltank as a replacement for Snorlax? I only said I decided to use her along with Houndoom to limit Chandelure's options, I'd never begin to compare Snorlax because it's an amazing Pokemon. Miltank is completely viable, either way, if not for her access to Heal Bell, a powerful STAB Double-Edge, Thick Fat, and a great base 100 Speed stat. I wasn't trying to compare her to Snorlax, but if you're so worried about Chandelure, you can't just say 'Fuck it, if I can't use Snorlax, it ain't worth it'.

    Finally, it all comes down to this: if by using something different from Snorlax to beat Chandelure you're making yourself utterly weak to other stuff, and can't really cover them between your other four/five spots, then Chandelure can be considered perfectly broken. Otherwise, it's just a matter of what you consider 'teambuilding restraining' or 'less fun', and that's a crappy reason to ban a Pokemon because of what I said earlier.

    And as a last point, don't even try to compare Chandy to Genesect. Scarf Genesect had U-turn to get away from its checks, Download to break stuff, and better defensive typing in a place where Dragon-types abound. Yea, Chandelure here takes advantage of Fighting-types, we all know that, but they're much easier to deal with than Dragon-types anyway. And arguably the biggest reason for the ban of Genesect was its RP set, which could get amazing coverage in three moves, outspeed anything and resist most priority except for Aqua Jet and Mach Punch, besides having a cool Speed tier.
    That isn't a fair comparison for Chandelure, who I'm not saying isn't broken—to me it isn't, but I haven't been able to get a good grip of it without Snorlax—, but merely a huge threat with good resistances and immunities and great offensive presence.

    EDIT: I'm gonna stop writing before I make a fool of myself. The point I was trying to make is that you should evaluate your different options before stating 'Chandelure is broken because if you don't run Snorlax you're inherently weak to it or to other stuff'. That's why I'm saying that niche Pokemon, as long as they don't make you weak to a different threat that can't be remedied, can be used. If that can't be pulled off, then I'm all for banning Chandelure because that would make it broken. I hope I could make myself clear now
  9. kd24

    kd24 lemme just whip my dick out and slam it on the table
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    there is soooo much i disagree with here its really insane, but before i address this post, god forbid people use snorlax on their team because its by far the best mon in the tier. i'm sure its chandelure that is convincing everyone to run it.

    ok moving on. first of all, lo victini with bolt strike/grass knot really screws up that "counter argument" and the scary thing about victini is its still faster than chandelure when using lo so i'm not sure what that argument was supposed to prove. you also named 3 mons that stop physical fire-types in victini and darmanitan. i can name several like umbreon, snorlax, and porygon2 who can crap on chandelure. so again i don't understand your argument whatsoever lol.

    relevant calcs
    252+ Atk Life Orb Victini Bolt Strike vs. 248 HP / 144 Def Slowking: 343-406 (87.27 - 103.3%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

    0 SpA Life Orb Victini Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 248 HP / 244 SpD Solid Rock Rhyperior: 382-452 (88.22 - 104.38%) -- 31.25% chance to OHKO

    252+ SpA Life Orb Chandelure Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 183-216 (46.44 - 54.82%) -- 9.77% chance to 2HKO

    i don't see this "force to use snorlax" argument as legitimate. first of all, snorlax handles almost every special check and is one of the best attackers in the tier. like i said, god forbid people use it because it does its job so well. secondly, as i stated earlier, chandelure still has to switch about and get in and his slow speed and frail stats along with a sr and spikes weakness basically say no. maybe you have to sac something to chandelure because you made a mistake and let it in for free, but if that keeps happening, it's on the player, not the pokemon. when something is as slow and as frail as chandelure with a STEALTH ROCK WEAKNESS, it's not coming in to wreck havoc this often unless you are just a giant fuck up at this game.

    its almost like you shouldn't spam mienshao's hjks until chandelure is dealt with ahead of time. chandelure is a great mon for keeping MIENSHAO in check from spamming HJK...this argument makes almost no sense to me. yeah, a scarfed set can be good vs offense but offense doesn't flat out lose to it (flygon, water-types, etc still exist) and it then lacks the power to deal with the defensive teams. its extremely underwhelming as a scarfer when you could just be blowing shit up with specs fireblasts or sub lo splitting.

    there's a lot of issues i take with your last post which is "don't run this it sucks". while i generally agree on not running gimmicks and how you're wasting a mon's potential by doing that, i'd first point out that me and august made one of the best if not the best uu teams of bw1 featuring sdef arcanine and that sdef is arcanine's niche really (offensive set for arcanine sucks balls), and that theres nothing wrong with investing more sdef on milotic to deal with chandy, p2, etc.
  10. kokoloko

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    kd, you misunderstand. I'm not saying people only use Snorlax because of Chandelure, I'm saying its one of the main reasons why they choose it over the myriad of other options we have so often. I'm sure both RT and reach agree with me on this point. I don't know why you're trying to make it sound like I'm saying something I'm not, but you should really stop.

    The idea here isn't "lets decrease Snorlax usage". It's "lets make the tier more diverse by removing the biggest crutch during teambuilding" (which I know you disagree with, but a lot of people don't).

    Now as for your actual argument.

    For one, your calcs are pretty irrelevant.

    No one uses 252 Atk physical LO Victini. Why would you want to use LO on a Pokemon that is essentially forces to switch after every time it uses its primary STAB move? Choice Band exists.

    By extension, no one uses 0 SpA LO Grass Knot Victini. If anything its fully invested in SpA, which should be obvious after a single attack, and in which case the Rhyperior user would probably be careful around it?

    Also yeah cool Umbreon "walls" LO Chandelure when it has absolutely no damage on it, there's no hazards on the field, and avoids crits and burns. I'm sure a team with Umbreon is going to put enough pressure on a Chandelure team to keep hazards off the field. And it definitely beats SubSplit too.

    Once again, its not just me that feels "forced" to use Snorlax on every balanced/slowish team I make. Also you keep going on and on about Chandelure's "frailness" as if it didn't have plenty of resistances/immunites and the ability to invest a lot in HP. Its nowhere near as frail as you're making it out to be.

    Also there's a few ways of bringing Chandelure in without taking damage. I'm sure you know them so I won't go into them.

    Finally, I'm not sure if you've noticed but we're in BW2 now. SpD Arcanine sucks, Milotic in general is outclassed (which is why no one good uses it), and Houndoom would see ~0 usage if it wasn't for Chandelure itself (and it already does from people who know what they're doing).

    Oh and Porygon2, aside from being generally mediocre in the current metagame, doesn't even beat Flame Body Chandelure, which is an actual thing, js).
  11. spuds4ever

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    Maybe it is, but you could argue that for an awful lot of moves that help pokemon do their job properly, MoxieCross being locked into Stone Edge or pursuit is easy to exploit, but nevertheless, it has made its own job easier for later on by killing said crobat or chandelure switching in/out respectively. It's the same deal with chandy, sure it's exploitable, but that's the case with pretty much every choice sweeper. If anything, I would argue that chandy is in a better position than other choiced sweepers as it actually rarely has to use more than its STABs unless you really need to kill that switching in bulky water. This isn't even accounting for its LO sub set.

    I'm not quite sure how you came to that conclusion. In this case, I'd say for the fact that you're suggesting that miltank can be used as a check to chandelure (which I wouldn't really agree with seeing as 40/0 miltank 2hkoed by a choice scarf fire blast and beaten by sub sets running HP fighting) when we have the more reliable snorlax available as an invalid proposal. Why go for a less reliable check, and seeing as there are only two reliable counters (and by reliable I'm not covering flame body specs for P2). That's my problem, having very limited options of dealing with chandelure.

    I think you've misunderstood me but perhaps that's my fault as I didn't elaborate very much. My point was, genesect still had to expose its team to do its job properly by locking itself into a coverage move. Just backing up my point that a pokemon can still be banned and do this.

    And that's my point. Niche pokemon either don't actually counter chandelure or have enough perks to justify their use over snorlax which is why I think Chandelure should be banned.
  12. Ernesto

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    OK I said I wasn't gonna keep writing, but it seems you didn't read my first post before you replied so I have to eat my words. That's making me mad and I have to refrain from cussing otherwise this post will get deleted, but we can't have a serious discussion if you just read a couple of lines.

    So yea, if you really wanna argue, read my first post to which you replied without really knowing what I was talking about.

    For the sake of making this post usable, let's just say that the whole point of Miltank and Houndoom was because you can't fucking use Snorlax in DH Project, which you'd have known had you read my post. So yea, when you can't use something, you try making something else work. Thick Fat Offensive Miltank needs only 136 Speed to reach 270—arguably the best Speed tier if you want to invest in HP.
    252 SpA Chandelure Fire Blast vs. 120 HP / 0 SpD Thick Fat Miltank: 144-169 (39.88 - 46.81%) -- 37.11% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    Not to mention once it's locked into Fire Blast it has to switch out or Houndoom comes in for free.

    Also I've never seen HP Fighting on Sub sets, that doesn't mean it doesn't work, but the most common coverage move for those was Energy Ball. Either way, since I was the one who said HP Fighting wasn't good to be locked into, I'll give you that:
    252+ SpA Chandelure Hidden Power Fighting vs. 120 HP / 0 SpD Miltank: 244-288 (67.59 - 79.77%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    How does it work? It Subs as Miltank switches in, Miltank breaks the Sub, takes the HP Fighting and KOs with Earthquake. Good enough for you?

    As it goes, Miltank is a nice check to anything but Specs HP Fighting, which OHKOes.
    She has little utility outside of that, I reckon, mostly absorbing Scalds thanks to Milk Drink+Heal Bell and maybe make for an acceptable check to Offensive Lax as is, thanks to solid 95/105 Defense and hitting it on its weaker defense:
    252+ Atk Choice Band Snorlax Return vs. 120 HP / 0 Def Miltank: 234-276 (64.81 - 76.45%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252+ Atk Life Orb Miltank Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 52 Def Snorlax: 265-313 (57.48 - 67.89%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    Considering Miltank has the reliable recovery Snorlax lacks, it could work when paired with Zapdos, for example, while she can also reliably beat RestTalk Lax. That's not full theorymon since I used her to beat Lax, but I wasn't running Zapdos, but Nidoqueen with Focus Blast.

    I thought the whole point of Chandy being broken was because it forced you to run Snorlax? So if you run something else to check it, 'why are you using it? It's outclassed by Snorlax'. That's silly thinking right there, sorry. Especially when you're tired of running Snorlax in all your teams, or you're trying to participate in the DH project

    And about Gene, again, it was hard to take advantage of its Scarf set because it U-turned continuously and possibly trap checks with Duggy, which meant it didn't usually need to lock itself—and probably wouldn't against DragMag unless it seriously needed to revenge kill that +1 D-nite / Haxorus. Either way, I maintain that the set which probably made people want to ban Gene was RP, simply because it screwed completely with HO teams.
  13. fatty

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    haha i don't know about everyone else but when i go to teambuild i don't go "ok, first things first, i need a counter to chandelure". honestly, it's more like a second thought to me and sometimes i don't even worry about it if my team is fast enough (scarf chandelure is a bad argument, don't use it, it's rare and all you need is a solid fire / ghost resist to not get fucked). simply put, i call bullshit on this main argument against chandelure for inhibiting team building because, well, it doesn't if you're not a bad team builder. defensively inclined teams, which albeit slower, should not have any problems with chandelure because there are just so many good defensive mons that can handle it. it's not like we're talking about the bottom of the barrel uu mons, we're talking about snorlax, suicune, p2, and milotic, all who are great at not only handling chandy, but a myriad of offensive pokemon. on the other end of the spectrum, offense may even be in an easier position vs. chandy because a well built offense should only be letting it get maybe one attack off before it's swiftly ko'd. chandelure is just simply too slow, too frail, and has too many vices that hold it back from doing much against high momentum teams. for something to inhibit team building it needs to be able to either sweep at the drop of a hat, break through most defensive cores with ease, wall the majority of a team, or support the hell out of its teammates, all of which chandelure cannot do.

    now, to talk in terms of sheer brokenness, i think the whole idea of chandy falling into that category is absurd. it has little to no qualities of what should even be considered broken, and yes koko, chandelure hitting hard as fuck is the sole reason for its suspect because if it didn't have that sky high spa we wouldn't even be having this conversation because there are so many things that hold it back. here is why it is not broken...

    - sr weak. yes, there are plenty of great and possibly broken pokemon in bw that have an sr weak, but chandelure is just too slow and frail to have sr not cripple it to extreme points.

    - pursuit weak. not only is chandelure weak as fuck to hazards, but it's shit on by the only move that can guarantee a pokemon to be gone or severely crippled.

    - slow. sorry but 80 speed is terrible. chandelure will not be sweeping anything and it actually stops it sometimes from getting even a single hit off because there are so many usable uu mons above that mark.

    - exploitable weaknesses. we're not talking dragons here, we have a plethora of good offensive options to use against chandelure as rock, ground, ghost, dark and water are some of the best offensive types in the game.

    - predictable. there is absolutely no issue with trying to discern what chandelure will be running or what it will be trying to do. this means that you can create an early gameplan to beat it and the same mons will almost always work against it.

    - its checks / counters are more than viable. this has already been talked about, but it is one of the main selling points for why chandelure isn't broken. snorlax and bulky waters are great, and not just because the handle chandy.

    - frailty. on top of having trouble dealing with hazards, chandelure's bulk makes it worry about even seeing the light of day in battle without being outright ko'd


    rant done. chandelure, far from broken.
  14. Kollin708

    Kollin708

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    Interesting discussion here.

    What do we consider broken?

    I would say something that only has 1 or 2 counters because that ruins teambuilding. The topic of Snorlax has already been discussed extensively in this thread, but the reason the top players all use it is not just because of Chandelure. It's also because of Raikou, Zapdos, Shaymin, Roserade, Azelf, Togekiss, Yanmega, Special Victini, Nidoking, Empoleon, Special Kingdra, as well as Chandelure. My favorite set is the Choice-Banded set, because it still takes special hits all day, and then can pursuit-trap Chandelure, Azelf, and Froslass for the kill, and get off very good damage on Victini. Also Return/Body Slam is very good for wallbreaking. So I would say Chandelure is not even a big chunk of the reason I and many others use Snorlax so much. It just happens to be very nice for it.

    Anyways, without Snorlax or Porygon2, I still don't fear Chandelure so much to consider it broken. I would agree with the sentiment that it is overrated. Just a tad overrated. Is it a huge threat in this metagame that needs to be dealt with swiftly in every match it's in? Yes, but really does it run through teams? Not often, and when it does I would say that the opponent must have had pretty bad teambuilding. Once you know which set it is, it really is usually pretty easy to deal with. There's just so much that out-speeds it, even if it is scarfed. It's SR weakness is one thing, but coupled with 60 base HP, this thing just flat-out is not broken.

    Chandelure belongs in UU. When Shadow Tag is released it will be a different story, obviously, but for now let's just all calm down a bit.
  15. Grim Gregg

    Grim Gregg

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    I just made an interesting discovery dicking around with a damage calc. Now, I like to use way more HP investment than is typically necessary, but it looks like it finally paid off. A little extra HP is REALLY helpful to Chandy.
    Some calcs, EV spreads, and a test scenario on Showdown-
    Show Hide
    Snorlax @ Choice Band
    Trait: Thick Fat
    EVs: 252 Atk / 80 HP / 176 SDef
    Adamant Nature

    Chandelure @ Choice Specs
    Trait: Flame Body
    EVs: 208 HP / 48 Spd / 252 SAtk
    Modest Nature

    252SpAtk Choice Specs Chandelure (+SAtk) Fire Blast vs 80HP/176SpDef Thick Fat Snorlax (Neutral): 28% - 33% (138 - 162 HP). Guaranteed 4HKO.

    252Atk Choice Band Snorlax (+Atk) Pursuit vs 208HP/0Def Chandelure (Neutral): 44% - 53% (140 - 166 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO. 9% chance to 2HKO.

    Calcs put into action http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/uu9919938

    That extra HP is useful in other situations-
    252Atk Heracross (+Atk) Stone Edge vs 208HP/0Def Chandelure (Neutral): 81% - 95% (254 - 300 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

    Sorry about the theorymon, but I thought it was relevant given all the talk about Chandelure being frail and Snorlax trapping it.
  16. shiranai

    shiranai

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    I found out that too. Running more HP EVs (212 EVs, since someone said in this thread Chand only needed speed to outspeed uninvested Suicune) in Chand makes it bulky enough to take some hits the classical 252/252 spread couldn't. But even with the boost in its bulkness a single switch into Stealth Rocks throw away all the investiment done, making you miss a lot the speed lost; also, since this kind of spread is more often seen in Specs builds, it means it will lose most fights against opposing Chandelure too. In other words, it remedies a little it weakness to its common counters like ScarfCross, Scarf Mienshao and CBLax, but let it vulnerable to things it wasn't before, like offensive Nidoqueen and Empoleon (Agility and SubPetaya sets), threats that Chand could easily outspeed with max speed Timid and most of the times outspeed with a Modest nature and OHKO with Fire Blast.
    This changed my mind a little about Chand's power, but still it is quite vulnerable for me, long for being ban worthy.
  17. Ace Emerald

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    The issue over Chandelure is a lot like the one we had over Sand. There are a few basic opinions, broken, unhealthy, and not broken, and there are players of all skill levels and community standings in each camp. It comes down to banning policy and how much users feel is too much. No matter the result, the "minority" will be substantial and many players will be unsatisfied. However, it really can't be helped.

    I personally think its broken, and I'll articulate it with a response to fatty's points, as he sums up every anti-banning argument.

    tl;dr Chandelure is an unstoppable wallbreaker. Its one thing to have a great wallbreaker with a few counters, but a lack of safe switches makes it feel broken to me.
  18. Pocket

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    How is Chandelure an unstoppable wallbreaker when it's countered by common defensive mons like Suicune / Blastoise and hard-countered by Snorlax? Even if Chandelure is somehow this supreme wallbreaker unparalleled by other UU wallbreakers (no...), I don't see how it's a bannable offense, since it's not like UU meta is defined by defensive teams that are "wrecked" by Chandelure.

    I do admit that the big issue here is in the difference of people's threshold for centralization (aka "restricting teambuilding"), but I have to say Chandelure doesn't come close to breaking any centralization threshold, and I am genuinely surprised that this is even brought out as a suspect. It seems only a few people's centralization threshold have been broken by Chandelure, and they're grabbing at straws.
  19. Ace Emerald

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    I'll just let some calcs talk.

    252+ SpA Life Orb Chandelure Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Suicune: 179-212 (52.49 - 62.17%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    252+ SpA Life Orb Chandelure Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Suicune: 179-212 (44.3 - 52.47%) -- 84.38% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    252+ SpA Choice Specs Chandelure Hidden Power Fighting vs. 80 HP / 176 SpD Snorlax: 214-254 (44.49 - 52.8%) -- 88.28% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    252+ Atk Choice Band burned Snorlax Pursuit vs. 68 HP / 0 Def Chandelure: 70-83 (25.17 - 29.85%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

    And I just don't see a Scarf Snorlax stopping many Special Attackers for long, which is what its generally on the team for. And again, these aren't crazy sets; they are all good and you don't know which the opponent is using, while they can see your Chandelure check and design a strategy from Team Preview.
  20. Pocket

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    No people use faster mons like Timid Nidoking, Flygon, Specs Kingdra, or Krookodile to remove Chandelure, not Scarf Snorlax. One can always give Snorlax more specially-defensive EVs and even RestTalk to better handle Chandelure if their team are particularly weak to it. I am not suggesting anything crazy here. The fact that Chandelure must resort to HP Fighting is exploitable, too, since that's particularly a free switch-in for your own Chandelure / Victini or Water-type, etc. Remember that LO and SR damage adds up, so Chandelure would most likely lose against this war of attrition.

    Defensive teams most likely have Rapid Spin support, too (BLASTOISE), so unless you're willing to sac your Chandelure (or playing double ghosts) to keep Rocks up, then SR may not even be up on the defensive player's side.
  21. Ace Emerald

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    I was referring to Trick Scarf Chandelure, who cripples Snorlax and renders it near useless. Snorlax is undoubtedly the safest switch to Chandelure, but 3/4 sets have ways to cripple him. RestTalk, while it tanks anything Chandelure has, becomes totally useless if it gets Tricked a Scarf. While it might not be the most common Chandelure, its still a legit threat. As for the defensive teams and bulky Water-types, I can't see a team running them with Blastoise as that really stacks weaknesses, and many of them are 2HKO'd without hazards anyways. I guess Snorlax is safe from an HP Fighting 2HKO, which I agree isn't the optimal way to get rid of it, but the Trick and Burn really screw it up. There are definitely safe switches into Chandelure sets, but the problem is that there is nothing capable of dealing with all of them, and the Chandelure user has a lot more information regarding its counters than the other player has regarding what Chandelure he/she is facing.
  22. fatty

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    just as opponents can see chandelure from team preview and design a strategy to not let it in easily or limit the damage it does...

    these arguments for chandelure being the god almighty wallbreaker are based upon a perfect world where it gets unlimited switch-ins and against people who are unprepared for prominent uu threats be it through unefficient ev spreads or overall bad team syngery. all bulky waters attempting to check chandelure should be packing enough spd for the specific scenario against specs chandelure, and offensive cunes need to outspeed, that's that. as long the bulky water can tank 2 sballs or outspeed after the first one, chandy will struggle to do anything except MAYBE take out that water. i don't remember exact calcs right now, but you can just look at ace's calcs to see that it takes very minimal investment to ensure you can't be 2hkod from specs chandy and the physical trade off is hardly noticeable. from there, it's back to the players ability to not get fucked themselves by chandelure. if you need your water later to check chandelure, switch out to a solid ghost resist. i feel like people are trying to equate chandelure to something like cb terrakion in ou: a pokemon that can continually maul teams despite excessive measures, but this simply is not the case. chandelure is lucky if it gets 2 opportunities in a match to come in and fire off attacks, and even then once it gets in it doesn't have the speed to abuse its raw power.
  23. Ace Emerald

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    The Chandelure player knows considerably more than the opponent. The opponent only knows s/he's facing a Chandelure, which s/he knew s/he'd face when s/he'd built the team. Opponents have no idea what they're up against, what checks will be particularly effective. However, Chandelure users get a ton out of team preview. They know what their opponent's will most likely use to check Chandelure, and can cripple or double switch appropriately. And I agree that Chandelure would be lucky to get 2 switches into battle. But it only needs one to do its job properly and easily pave the way for another Pokemon to sweep. And I wouldn't be so sure with the Special Defense investment.

    252+ SpA Life Orb Chandelure Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 152+ SpD Blastoise: 153-181 (42.26 - 50%) -- 42.19% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    252+ SpA Life Orb Chandelure Shadow Ball vs. 240 HP / 152+ SpD Swampert: 172-203 (42.89 - 50.62%) -- 1.95% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    Empoleon already has maxed Sp Def, and Blastoise and Swampert have to put the majority of Defensive IVs into Sp Def. I'll give Suicune to you. But again, crippled by Trick Scarf. The teams that have an easy time dealing with Chandelure are the offensive teams. Offensive teams are accustomed to sacking and revenging, but balance and stall need to keep there walls, pivots, and sweepers functional to win. At the end of the day, yes there are relatively safe switches. Snorlax does ok a lot of the time, Suicune can be EV'd to take hits, and pivots can exploit Choiced sets. I'm not denying these facts, but saying they don't amount to much. They can be beaten by good Chandelure sets. They are far more predictable than Chandelure is. They force balance and stall teams to use one of 2-3 Pokemon or spend the entire match on their toes, hoping they can play around a deadly choice set. I don't think any of these statements are too extreme (though I'm sure someone will), and together, I think this makes Chandelure broken. Of course, no where there did I say unbeatable, so understandably other people will feel it isn't broken, and so like I said it comes down to banning policy and opinions about how much is too much.
  24. Gary2346

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    Chandelure is absolutely terrible in OU, and it always will be until it gets the ability Shadow Tag, so banning it to OU will most likely cause it to just rot at the bottom of the usage just like Chansey and become BL with the rest of the OU rejects. That would be such a shame... seeing as how good Chandelure actually is. Anyways, onto my actual argument, I can see where people are coming from by saying this thing is broken. Dat SpA stat makes OU powerhouses like Latios and Keldeo look bad, and if you slap Specs on this thing pretty much everything in the tier is 2HKOed by it's two STABs. Even with just a LO, most of his moves can hurt his counters really badly. However, even with his sheer fire power, there are also quite a few bad things about the possessed chandelier that should alone keep him from getting the boot. Since pretty much all of these cons have been discussed over and over again already, I think most of you can probably guess the biggest one; his speed. Sure, a Pokemon doesn't have to be fast to be good, I mean just look at Heracross for crying out loud, but Chandelure sits at a meh speed tier, and to make things worse most people always prefer to use a Modest nature on Chandy, so the fastest sets you'll usually see are in the low-mid 200s. That's pretty damn slow. Sure he can still out speed most of his counters, but with his quite pathetic bulk and weakness to SR and common Rock/Ground attacks, Chandy can only deal hits but can't really take any.

    I just feel like Chandy's the typical glass cannon of UU, and although he wrecks havoc against almost any UU team lacking Houndoom or Snorlax, he's quite easy to revenge kill, and is out sped my most if not all of the offensive part of the tier, leaving him wide open for something like Houndoom to set up on him if he's locked into a move. Going off of that, I'm always happy when I find out the opponent is running a Specs or Scarf set (to an extent of course, both are quite scary). Why? Well like I mentioned earlier, if he's locked into a move then you can take advantage of that by going into something to check it, but the Sub LO set is much more dangerous IMO since it has to take at least two hits to get rid of it. With the LO set however, you're sacrificing power/speed and a coveraging move. So the people complaining about the Specs set I disagree in saying that it's one of the sets that make it "broken".

    So all in all, I don't think Chandelure is broken. Yes he IS the hardest hitting Pokemon in the tier and is almost impossible to hard counter, but with a SR weakness, vulnerable to the common Spikes and T-Spikes, mediocre speed, common weakness to coveraging moves such as Earthquake and Stone Edge, easy to check, pursuit weak, AND weak to common types such as Ground, Rock, and Water types leave him quite vulnerable. So broken? No. Extremely dangerous? Yes. I compare him to the likes of Kyurem-B in OU. Sure Kyurem-B has a pitiful move pool and Chandy doesn't, but pretty much everything in the tier is OHKOed by it's STAB Outrage and even common steels are easily 2HKOed, just like good old Chandy's Fire Blast and Shadow Ball. He's also kind of slow in OU, which puts him in a similar position as Chandy. Like I said, they are two completely different Pokemon with completely different reasons of being suspected, but they're comparable to an extent. They're by no means in the same boat.

    Well there's my 2 cents on the suspect. I'd hate to see my favorite chandelier go to a tier where it currently doesn't belong. If it's banned, lets just hope GF feels sorry for it and gives it Shadow Tag:naughty:
  25. dragontamer74pe

    dragontamer74pe

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    I really don't feel chandelure is broken. While it can 2hko or even ohko most of the tier it gets ohkod or 2hkod by so much he can't really switch in. His bulk, while not awful, isn't great and then his horrible defensive typing means he has very few chances to switch in. He also had a weakness to rocks so if the opponent spams choiced fighting moves a set without recovery can only switch in 4 times. Obviously no-one does that and one misprediction almost always kills chandelure. What I said about him only being able to switch in 4 times in the almost perfect world means that with perfect prediction he can get at most 4 hits off and that would be broken. However no-one gives chandelure that much time. No-one spams fighting moves all the time and chandelure will get worn down by moved like heracross's megahorn which it can only come in on once and mienshao's u-turn.
    Then he has it's speed. To switch in chandelure you have to get it in and then outspeed to get a hit off. As it commonly runs modest too it's not hard to outspeed it and chandelure relys too heavily on prediction IMO to be broke. I really don't know many pokes that give chandelure a free switch in bar maybe dusclops and choiced attacks.
    The next thing is pokes that can come in safely. There are snorlax, porygon-2 and bulky waters. This looks similar to the tornados-T counters but chandelure is easily worn down and is pursuit weak too. Chandelure commonly comes in on an attack that does around 25%+. It gets hit by rocks, fires off an attack and then can't come in again. So really a chandelure will only ever get 2 kills at most apart from the sub-split set which IMO is easily the best set. However even that set has to set-up a sub and by switching in it drains his health really quickly and then once you break it's sub it's rein tends to be over.
    That's why I think chandelure should remain uu.
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