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UU Suspect Discussion - Chandelure

Discussion in 'BW UU' started by kokoloko, Feb 12, 2013.

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  1. Ezio

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    Chandelure is somewhat analagous to Genesect in OU, but it's obviously far more susceptible to hazards and can't bring the momentum Genesect could repeatedly with U-Turn. For these reasons, I think a better comparison is to Nidoqueen in RU. I know it's a completely different tier, but just like Nidoqueen, Chandelure basically smacks down any walls with a 2HKO if it predicts right. Nidoqueen was not banned in the end because it's excellent on paper, but within battles it doesn't have an overpowering effect. Similarly, Chandelure is broken in theory, but offensive pressure and hazards keep it in check. It's another sweeper to be aware of.

    Some make the argument that is should be banned because it forces the usage of Snorlax. First of all, Snorlax is an incredible Pokemon that counters a hell of a lot more than Chandelure. Are we really going to ban a Pokemon very weak to all hazards that has a hard counter, which can trap it? Anyways there are other methods for defensive teams to deal with Chandelure as previously mentioned bulky waters and Umbreon. Finally, UU is a really offensive tier, and teams can easily fit in a couple mons that out speed and KO Chandelure.

    Yeah Chandelure can kill a lot of shit but it's basically UU Haxorus.

    EDIT: Sub Chandelure is rape
  2. kokoloko

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  3. MewTheDestroyer

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    Chandelure, to be perfectly honest, is a threat in the UU metagame. With a few checks, and a massive base Special Attack, it is very scary to see on your opponent's team. However, it is easily predictable, seeing as how the only 2 "viable" sets are choiced. With that being said, you can usually easily play around it. Now, if it has trick, and tricks away it's item, it cripples itself, especially if it's scarfed, due to it's mediocre speed. Now, arguably, there are 2 large counters (that I can think of without having to think) to Chandelure, that shut it down completely. The first is Snorlax. Due to Snorlax having Thick Fat, and it also being immune to Ghost types, Snorlax walls Chandelure to an oblivion. Kingdra is another check, due to it being able to switch in on a most likely choiced Chandelure, that is locked into a Fire move, and then set up Rain Dance/Dragon Dance/Anhialate something with a Draco Meteor.

    Now, should Chandelure be banned? No. Why? Because it has mediocre speed and is easily predictable, while 2 of it's checks are 2 of the most common Pokemon seen in UU.
  4. Nova

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    Agreeing with the above poster. For the most part, Chandelure is a very effective special attacker and the Choice Specs set I've been running on my ladder team is able to dish out a bunch of damage. However, more often than not, I've found it to be only effective when Chandelure comes in on something that it can threaten and force it out, getting a powerful Specs Fire Blast or Shadow Ball or such on whatever comes in. These opportunities are not very common though due to his middling speed, leaving it outsped by a whole host of threats including the likes of Heracross, Mienshao, Suicune, Zapdos, Kingdra, Flygon, etc. He's also pretty easily checked by Snorlax who is immune to Shadow Ball and essentially resists Fire type attacks and can check mate Chandelure with Pursuit. Chandelure's Pursuit weakness is also very crippling, as most things can just trap it with the move and Chandlure can't even get a hit off against the likes of Weavile who outspeed unless Chandelure is Scarfed. The Choice Scarf set helps make up for this lack of Speed at the expense of power but this set is largely outclassed by other scarfers such as Mienshao, Flygon, Raikou, and Zapdos all of which can hit hard and revenge kill while also building momentum with U-turn for the first 2 and Volt Switch for the latter 2. Mienshao and Raikou also make better scarfers in my eyes than Chandelure as they have the added advantage of being able to outspeed most Swift Swimmers under rain which can prove very useful against that type of team. The Substitute and Pain Split/Calm Mind sets are also pretty common, but again this type of set it outclassed by the likes of Calm Mind Raikou who has a much higher Speed stat and can easily sweep because of it. Although Raikou doesn't have a Fire and Fighting type immunity like Chandelure does, which are admittedly very common attacking types in UU he makes up for it with the lack of Water type weakness and lack of Stealth Rock weakness. On the topic of Stealth Rock, this is another factor that hinders Chandelure's effectiveness as he is easily crippled by entry hazards and worn down by Toxic Spikes.

    In short, Chandelure is a solid Pokemon in UU that has a decent niche, being immune to 2 of the most common attacking types and also posing an offensive presence. However, the majority of its sets are outclassed to some degree by other top UU Pokemon and can be put a stop to. Therefore, I do not think Chandelure should be banned from UU.
  5. Ace Emerald

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    I strongly disagree with this. SubSplit is first on the analysis for a reason, and Sub WoW is on there for a reason. Both sets are great, how are Specs and Scarf the only viable sets? Chandelure is anything but predictable, switching Snorlax in on a WoW or Trick could be devastating to your team, and allow your opponent to sweep with another of the many great Special attacks in UU. And while Kingdra is a check in the sense that it helps prevent Chandelure from spamming Fire moves, I will say that Choice Specs has a good chance to OHKO 0/0 with Shadow Ball and Spikes, and Scarf outspeeds and 2HKOs with Shadow Ball all the time. Again, like I said earlier, the individual sets have checks and counters, but Chandelure has many good options and is anything but predictable.
  6. Nas

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    Ace Emerald and Upstart have been selected to vote as part of the Senate for this round. A PM will be sent to all voters with instructions on how to send in your votes shortly.
  7. Squidsauce

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    I wanna repeat again that Chandelure is like Staraptor. Both aren't necessarily that great pokemon. Both probably don't deserve S rank because they are frail, weak to hazards, and die quickly. They don't "feel" broken as a result.

    But they are both broken as fuck. Nothing was able to beat Staraptor's bravebird + closecombat, and same for chandelure. The sub set for both of them is devastating. And they wreck teambuilding. Cmon guys let's be real, get out of the "wait chandelure is underwhelming and he's not as good as *x sweeper* he's not broken". He's so damn broken. God. Remember when rhyperior was huge? Now no one uses it. If chandelure is gone, I can now use umbreon, or P2, or swampert, or walrein (for hail), or whatever special wall, instead of snorlax. God. And even if it's gone, I can use snorlax, but without crunch. Fuck chandelure. LO shadow ball KOs shit.

    Chandelure KOs shit.
  8. exotic

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    I disagree with you. Staraptor was way more broken than chandelure ever will be thanks to that base speed. Staraptor had only one counter and that was max def rhyperior (not that good imo) while chandelure is countered by snorlax (the best pokemon in the tier right now and still would be that even if chandy would leave)
  9. Nas

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    All the votes are in, and the result is a decision to keep Chandelure in UU by a vote of 7-2. Here are the voters paragraphs:

    Ace Emerald; Ban (open)
    In short, Chandelure is a monster that can consistently and easily break apart stall and balance teams. While it is true that offensive teams have little to fear from Chandelure due to its frailty, slowness, and common weaknesses, teams with slower Pokemon can be ruined due to the unpredictable nature of Chandelure. Pokemon that switch well into one set of Chandelure rarely can switch well into another, and furthermore, it is obvious from Team Preview which Pokemon a team will switch into Chandelure as not many can Pokemon can. This gives Chandelure players a huge advantage, and the unpredictable and powerful nature of Chandelure allows it to cripple or KO a Pokemon very easily. With Trick and Will-o-Wisp to cripple the best Chandelure switch Snorlax, Energy Ball and a strong neutral Shadow Ball to deal with bulky Water-types, and the rise of Flame Body Chandelure to open Porygon2 to a strong Fire Blast, there is nothing that can switch into Chandelure. While on offensive teams this hardly matters, on stall teams and balance teams that Pokemon is vital. That Pokemon is a wall essential for walling multiple Pokemon, an important pivot that allows a balance team to gain momentum, or a sacked sweeper, which means the destruction of a win condition.

    Chandelure doesn't only wreck teams in battle, it contributes to a huge effect on the metagame. While, as I previously stated, no Pokemon is a safe switch in, there are Pokemon that can handle some Chandelure sets, and those Pokemon are forced onto every balance and stall team because without them teams are 100% helpless against Chandelure, instead of just in danger. Sure, Snorlax is a great Pokemon on its own. But any balance or stall team lacking him instantly opens itself up to a Chandelure onslaught. Its hard to impossible to teambuild without him on any balance or stall team, and he can't even switch into every Chandelure set. Teams just have to hope that it is a SubSplit set, a choiced set not using trick, or they have another pivot or wall capable of handling the other threats that Snorlax is used to combat. This power in battle and influence on the metagame is too much, and Chandelure should be banned.


    Flareblitz; Do Not Ban (open)
    Chandelure's immense power is overshadowed by its fairly middling speed, vulnerability to passive damage, and reliance on prediction for setup / switchin opportunities. Specially-defensive bulky waters, specially-defensive Rhyperior, and Snorlax can force out its best and most common sets, and it has several checks that are prevalent on offensive teams (Flygon and Kingdra are two good examples).

    Compared to Pokemon like Mixtini, CB Flygon, and CB Heracross, Chandelure's only advantage is a more serendipitous typing. However, in my opinion, this advantage is not enough to make it nearly as threatening a wallbreaker as the above, much less significantly more "broken" than them.


    reachzero; Do Not Ban (open)
    Chandelure is the hardest Suspect I have ever voted on. I do not remember ever being so torn as to which way to vote as I am for this vote, which is a major factor in my decision to vote Do Not Ban.

    Chandelure's massive strength is undeniable. The baseline for its power is the Specs set, which narrows the list of (good) Pokemon that can really safely switch in to a mere handful; Snorlax, Trace Porygon2. On the other hand, if Chandelure elects to use Will-o-Wisp, Pain Split or both, it can put Snorlax in pretty serious trouble in its own right. While Chandelure is very slow for an offensive Pokemon, it is faster than nearly every bulky Pokemon, and bulky enough to take at least one hit from many offensive Pokemon. It has a certain amount of difficult coming in safely, but not nearly so much as other powerful offensive Pokemon like Victini or even Mew, simply because its resistances to Bug, Fighting and Grass are so useful. If UU had more true offense and less balance, Chandelure would not be nearly as dangerous as it is.

    On the other hand, Chandelure's Stealth Rock weakness means that it tends to have a limited number of switch-ins in which to do its damage; this is even more true for the sets that deal the best with Snorlax (i.e., the Life Orb sets). It is extremely easy to force out after a KO, which means that it is generally much less useful in the late game than in the early game, when it is at full HP and there are no weakened Pokemon to sacrifice. Chandelure is a classic example of a Pokemon that will destroy certain teams entirely and perform only adequately against others--although it is virtually never actually useless.

    Chandelure's greatest limiting factor seems to me to be the imagination of the players: its best sets are not its most popular, so it is difficult to really judge its power in a fair way. It totally destroys the ladder and is highly useful even in high-level play, but it is not a such a force in every game that being weak to it is a complete kiss of death, the way that many other very threatening UU Pokemon are. I am very uncertain as to the "best" vote in this case, and as such, I would prefer to be conservative and vote Do Not Ban.


    DestinyUnknown; Do Not Ban (open)
    I must admit I have had a lot of trouble making a decision on this suspect, as Chandelure's definitely one of the top threats in the current metagame, thanks to its amazing special attack and good typing. However, it definitely has some flaws too as its defenses are mediocre and it has a lot of common weaknesses than don't let it come in too easily or simply mean it will be easily forced out by a faster opponent. The weakness to Pursuit and to all forms of passive damage (especially important in Stealth Rock's case) don't do Chandelure any favours either and even if it will almost always pull its weight and kill something during a battle, its characteristics aren't good enough to push it over the line, and I feel like there are many other threats that are as dangerous as Chandelure or even more (think of stuff like Kingdra, Victini, Raikou or Mew) that centralize the metagame just as much without being broken, and Chandelure just falls on the same boat. Chandelure doesn't force you tu run Snorlax (in fact, many teams have Snorlax not just because it counters Chandelure but because it's a good check to half of the pokemon in the tier and is a strong offensive threat at the same time), as you can deal with Chandelure via bulky specially defensive pokemon, bulky water types, Rhyperior and faster pokemon that can take a hit. Basically, while Chandelure is extremely good and it's a great pokemon, I think it just falls short of being broken, and I just reckon voting Do Not Ban is the best option here.


    RT.; Ban (open)
    I was on the fence with this one for a while, but I've recently come to the conclusion that Chandelure is unhealthy for the metagame to the point where it needs to go. We all know Chandy hits like a goddamn truck- there are a lot of Pokemon in the tier that do. However, Chandelure being the only one that hits from the special side is what distinguishes itself amongst these other mons, as it narrows down the list of Pokemon that can reliably switch into its strongest (Specs) set to just Snorlax. Porygon2 isn’t even a legitimate counter to Chandelure anymore because most people have started using Flame Body, apart from it being shitty in this metagame in general. Now, the popular argument seems to be that Chandelure is “too slow” and “too frail,” which keeps it from being broken. I completely disagree with both of these points as Chandelure only needs to hit 207 Speed, which leaves it with plenty of EVs to pad its defenses. It outspeeds everything that can take a hit from it and OHKOes everything faster. Snorlax is literally the only Pokemon in the tier that can stop Specs Chandelure from running right through most teams, and although Chandelure isn’t the entire reason it sees so much usage, it accounts for a large portion of it. In my opinion, when I’m forced to use a single Pokemon on my team just to avoid getting smacked by Chandelure, that’s a pretty clear indicator that it’s broken.


    kd24; Do Not Ban (open)
    I still don't see where this suspect came from and I don't only echo the views of my fellow senators, I enforce that even bringing up Chandelure as a suspect is a bad idea moving forward. It's strong, is a ghost, and can fire off Fire-type attacks with a good secondary stab. It punishes poorly constructed stall, and can be a nuisance to offense when behind a sub. Scarf Chandelure can also harm offensive teams. I must be missing the point of why Chandelure was given suspect status if those are it's merits.

    A Pokemon that can't raise it's speed outside of questionable gimmicks, a Pokemon that is entirely predictable, a Pokemon weak to some of the most common attacking types and moves (Surf, Stone Edge, Earthquake, Crunch, Shadow Ball), a Pokemon vulnerable to Stealth Rock and Spikes, and a Pokemon that can be handled by many Pokemon due to it's restrictive moveset and frailty: these are the traits of Chandelure.

    With so many weaknesses, it has a tremendous upside of doing what I described in my opening paragraph. But like any Pokemon, it isn't without its faults and can fall to common sweepers and threats found within the tier. Can it play around counters? Yes - Will-o-Wisp, Flame Body, Trick, etc can all be used to assist. But like other great Pokemon, it can't do it all at once. I get so confused when I hear how it can SubSplit to play around Snorlax or defensive Pokemon, but in the same breath, offense isn't good vs it because of Scarf. Yes, that is what you give up when you choose a set. A well made team will be able to play around the multiple Chandelure sets and exploit one of Chandelure's many weaknesses that I outlined above. It seriously has so many that it can be done and has been done consistently.

    There are so many Pokemon I prepare for more than Chandelure, who can be clumped in with the other extremely powerful sweepers we have in the tier. I think we need to be careful about what we Suspect because this one wasn't even close to me and it worries me about Pokemon being suspected just because they're phenomenal during a metagame trend.



    JabbaTheGriffin; Do Not Ban (open)
    It's pretty difficult to write paragraphs for a mon you don't think is even close to broken, but here I go.

    Chandy has two main things going for it. Its typing and its power. Its typing (and its most used ability) allows it a few great immunities and some pretty good resistances. It also gives it great STABs. However, I'd consider its typing a wash mainly because of the SR weak that limits its longevity and kind of makes its main immunities worthless if SR is on the field. It also can't block spin from Blastoise and has to watch out for toxic/rock move on Top.

    Its power is admittedly pretty nice, but not really noticeably moreso than some of the other UU powerhouses (rhyperior, raikou, heracross, mienshao, etc). And the real kicker is simply that Chandelure is just way too slow to do the type of damage that would separate it from the other offensive threats in UU. It is one of the easiest Pokemon in the tier to check. Its scarf set is the only real set that poses any danger to offensive teams, but any strong scarfer is going to pose that same kind of threat.

    So what I'm saying is that Chandelure is just another offensive threat in a fairly offensive metagame. I made sort of the same argument for Mew. It's hard to justify banning something that's good when it's not the "best". And as I've said before, if slowing down the metagame is our goal, banning a Pokemon that probably isn't even the best offensive threat in the game isn't the way to do it. I'm not sure there actually is one. So I can't support a ban on Chandelure.*

    *sidenote: I love this current metagame and actually don't want it to change at all.


    PK Gaming; Do Not Ban (open)
    Chandelure is probably the hardest Pokemon to counter in the tier, but on the other hand, its also one of the most flawed offensive Pokemon in the tier as well. It's slow (base 80 is outsped by nearly every relevant threat in the tier), SR weak and weak to some of the most common attacks in the tier. It can OHKO most of the Pokemon that naturally outspeed it, and 2HKO most walls barring Snorlax (more on that latter), but it has to contend with the fact that it's limited to a few switch ins per battle and dead weight against teams with several fast Pokemon. All of that power amounts to nothing if Chandelure is OHKOed by most of the offensive Pokemon in the opposing team (which is actually not too difficult because of Stealth Rock). It's limited to switching into choiced Fire-types & Fighting-types, but the Choice pokemon in question tend to carry U-turn, so its risky to even consider switching in, especially if Stealth Rock is in play.

    It's vulnerability to Snorlax is a huge detriment. You can argue that Snorlax is common because of Chandelure, or that Chandelure can bypass Snorlax with Will-o-Wisp but at the end of the day, I can say with almost certainty that Chandelure is almost always hard countered by Snorlax. It doesn't matter how you frame it, Chandelure's effectiveness is significantly reduced against teams that utilize Snorlax, and there's good majority of teams that utilize Snorlax in some way shape or form. While I agree that Snorlax is partly over-used due Chandelure, its not the sole reason why its overused since its a very good Pokemon that happens to check several prominent checks (who imo are even more dangerous than Chandelure).

    I don't buy into the notion that teams can't function with a hard check to Chandelure (read Snorlax). It's perfectly possible to build a team thats Chandelure proof by using checks that can switch into either Shadow Ball or Fire Blast (either, not both) or fast hard hitting Pokemon in general. It can be a bit taxing if it does manage to get a free switch against teams that don't utilize Snorlax, but any self respecting player that isn't using Snorlax should be prepared for Chandelure. It's a very good Pokemon, but not broken imo.


    Upstart; Do Not Ban (open)
    Although it goes without saying Chandelure is a true monster. However her spectacular power is marred by lackluster speed, susceptibility to hazards, and 4 move pool syndrome. The speed issue speaks for itself, allowing for the lighting fixture to be easily revenged. Despite rather good typing for the metagames threats, the heavy reliance of the metagame on hazards leaves chandelure's switch ins limited. Additionally although Chandy possesses the ability to do a amazing damage it requires proper predictions. Unfortunately Chandy can't carry pain split sub trick hp fighting shadow ball fire blast and energy blast.

    Additionally, several pokemon check and many even check this lamp. Snorlax and porygon2 come in as go to counters to a majority of variations of Chandy. Meanwhile special defensive bulky waters and Rhyperior are very solid checks to chandy.

    Clearly with personal flaws and the presents of checks and counters, Chandelure is not broken despite her amazing power.
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