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UU Suspect Discussion - Chansey

Discussion in 'BW UU' started by kokoloko, Jan 5, 2013.

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  1. kokoloko

    kokoloko supersmooth
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    Hello UU.

    After reading some of the latest posts in the megathread and having quite a few people beg for this on IRC, Chansey has been selected as a suspect for Stage 11. Everyone who plays the tier is welcome to participate in this discussion and express their opinion pertaining to whether or not they believe Chansey is ban-worthy. UU Senate members are expected to be actively involved in the discussion.

    While this is a debate and you are trying to convince the people voting that Chansey is / isn't ban-worthy, please do remain civil and have respect for everyone else. RT and I will not hesitate to edit / delete / infract posts that are rude or insulting to other members. We will also not hesitate to delete / infract inane or flat-out stupid posts, either (ie. "Chansey just dropped 5 days ago! How could it possibly be broken???"). Also, this should go without saying, but it's happened in the past, so... please refrain from posting if you don't actually play UU. Thanks.

    The debate is expected to last anywhere from 1-2 weeks, after which the Senate will convene and vote on the matter. The resulting paragraphs will then be posted in this thread and the verdict will be carried out.

    I'll make a post later about applications for rotating seats.

    That is all.
  2. Dallasboi1992

    Dallasboi1992

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    When Chansey dropped, it looked like Chansey-Gligar was going to be a formidable defensive core. Chansey to dominate special attackers while Gligar takes on the physical attackers. Then I saw Mienshao as a problem to both with HP Ice & HJK dealing with both. Then I paired Chansey with Cofagrigus. The results: scary. The Chanseygrigus core is a VERY solid defensive core. It can take prediction to break, but it will make stall more viable. After thinking about it for several hours & doing some research, I found that SubPunch Golurk makes for a decent answer to it.

    252 Atk Iron Fist Golurk (+Atk) Shadow Punch vs 252 HP/136 Def Cofagrigus (+Def) : 47.81% - 56.25% (2-3 hits to KO) Should be a 2HKO with Rocks. Correct me if I'm wrong on this one

    252 Atk Iron Fist Golurk (+Atk) Focus Punch vs 252 HP/252 Def Eviolite Chansey (+Def) : 78.41% - 92.33% (2 hits to KO) Should have a chance to OHKO with Rocks + 1 layer of Spikes.

    Another way to shut down this core is something with Taunt. Prime suspects here: Sub Bulk Up Acrobatics Tornadus-I and Sableye. Tricking a Choice item to either Chansey or Cofagrigus also shuts the core down. Anyways, back to Chansey, the blob makes stall teams more viable and shuts down a lot of special attackers. However, it is extreme Taunt bait. Broken? I don't know yet. Bulky as heck? Yes.
  3. Metric

    Metric is banned in America
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    I will probably get a lot of hate for this but I think that Chansey's presence in UU is actually a good thing and something the tier could really use.

    Before Chansey dropped, you could just keep spamming strong special attacks until your opponent's Snorlax/Umbreon/Porygon2 eventually folded, which given both of their limitations actually wasn't that difficult to do. kokoloko's most recent team is a key example of how effective this strategey actually was, as it is entirely specially offensive and built on this premise.

    Chansey slows the game down and provides some much needed breathing room against the multitude of powerful special attackers in UU. It encourages you to plan ahead as to how you will weaken it to the point where you have the opportunity to take it out. You have to 'think' more when using special attackers such as Zapdos, you can't just blitz through teams anymore which I believe is a good thing.

    All this is not to say whether I think that Chansey is or is not broken. We are all familiar with its ability to tank almost every kind of move in UU. I am still yet to form a solid opinion on whether or not it should be banned. The positives that I outlined (which some of you may see as negatives) that it brings to the tier coupled with its unrivaled ability to wall almost all unboosted moves of any type leave me rather conflicted at present. I just want people to consider the positives that Chansey brings as well as bad, as it seems that most of the community are out for Chansey's head without really looking at things from both sides.
  4. FlareBlitz

    FlareBlitz This was never a story that would have a happy end
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    You are all looking at this wrong. Chansey is not bad because it makes stall viable - a) stall needed a buff anyway b) stall is still not that viable (the same common pokemon obliterate it - NP Togekiss, NP / SD Mew, SD Heracross).

    No, where Chansey starts getting broken is on balanced and bulky offense teams, where it basically serves as a panic button meant to cushion the impact of mispredicts. You play like shit and your let opponent get Nidoking in for free? Just go to Chansey. That same opponent in the same game gets CB Weavile in for free as well? No problem - Chansey handles that just fine too. You're having a terrible day and let an important sweeper get crippled in addition to all this? Fat Whore to the rescue.

    The closest thing UU had to something like this before the tier shift was Snorlax, which is very common for exactly this reason - it counters a large number of otherwise extremely dangerous threats while using just one team slot. But Snorlax is much easier to break on both sides than Chansey, it relies on a 30% chance of paralyzing incoming attackers as opposed to a 100% chance, it has no access to instant recovery, it cannot support the team in any way except by being fat and taking hits and (sometimes) phazing. While chansey has its own disadvantages (lack of offensive presence, leftovers) its strengths more than make up for this, and allow it to be the new "check of all trades" in UU. But where Snorlax was balanced by its total inability to take physical hits even from scarfers (at least not without severely compromising its special tanking ability) Chansey can tank ridiculous physical blows and ridiculous special blows while offering far more in terms of team support.

    Why is this bad? Because it takes absolutely no skill to slap Chansey on your team and let it save your ass from various mispredicts that allowed your opponent to build offensive pressure. The philosophy of the senate has consistently been to encourage balanced play, and our definition of balance incorporates the very important factor of skill and team diversity. This is Pokemon, and you ought to expect and be prepared to handle a variety of threats without having hard counters for each one. You ought to suffer for poor play without being able to rely on a crutch like Chansey, and you ought to be able to wrest victory from your opponent without having it taken away by something that avoids a 2hko from silly shit like +1 Kingdra Outrage and +6 Cofagrigus' HP Fighting.

    We have this tier exactly where we want it - skill-based play revolving around synergy, prediction, and a wide variety of different Pokemon, to where even half of RU is viable in UU on the proper teams. Chansey threatens this balance and diversity, and it should not be allowed to stay.
  5. kd24

    kd24 yo daddy musta been a drug dealer? why, cuz you're dope
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    jabba made a good comparison yesterday - its like swampert for teams in adv, providing a momentum stopper that can plug a lot of wholes in teams and still cause issues to teams that try to switch around it

    except imagine pert got sr in adv, twave, and completely shut down its counters that even gimmick hp grass sets couldnt stop it

    chansey is exactly what flareblitz just said. a cushion for offensive teams to not even worry about weaknesses and still have an amazing core just because of how good chansey is. it even passes like 350 HP wishes to any offensive mon as well ;_;
  6. TPO3

    TPO3 Never practice; Always perform.

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    When I saw this post, the first thing I thought of was the argument in Mew's suspect discussion, where somebody said "Mew doesn't have hard counters, so it keeps battles from becoming stale." This post basically says "We should keep Chansey because it makes Stall viable, despite the fact that it might be broken." Now I understand this point, as stall has been not usable for a long time, and we are trying to make a format where all playstyles are playable (ideally,) but I think you have to look at the flip side as well. Yes, Chansey brings back a play style, but it severely nukes most of the special threats in the tier. Specially-based offensive teams (see: Kalaidoscope) become completely obsolete and un-playable. Balanced teams, as FlareBlitz touched on, become the most ridiculous teams in the format. Chansey doesn't need an offensive presence, because the support it can provide between Stealth Rock, Thunder Wave, Toxic, Heal Bell/Aromatherapy, and Wish more than makes up for it. Even some physical threats, like Sharpedo, CB Weavile, and Scarf Flygon get nerfed with Chansey in the tier. Ultimately, I do want Stall to be viable, but I think Chansey just nerfs too many pokemon, and I think the trade off ultimately isn't worth it.
  7. Super Mario Bro

    Super Mario Bro All we ever look for

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    I disagree with the notion that Chansey's presence suddenly makes every special attacker terrible. Many special attackers are capable of breaking Chansey by themselves (Sub + CM Mismagius and Meloetta), by stalling her out (CroCune / SubSplit Chandelure / SubSplit Rotom-F + Toxic status), or even by walling her (Nasty Plot + Heal Bell Togekiss). Things like Life Orb Zapdos can't break through Chansey by themselves, but with clever double switching coupled with entry hazards, Chansey is usually at bay. Also, it's fairly easy to Trick a Choice item onto Chansey with something like Chandelure, which effectively cripples her.

    For teams that need a safe Chansey switch, there's always Gligar, who can Taunt her or Knock Off her Eviolite, which severely hinders her effectiveness.

    I'm just not convinced yet that Chansey is something that the metagame as a whole can't handle. In fact, I like that she adds another layer of thought to teambuilding, in that you can't just spam Venomoth + a bunch of other powerful special attackers and get away with it. Regardless, special attacking teams can be effective, but they would need one or more Pokes to beat strong defensive cores.
  8. Adamant Zoroark

    Adamant Zoroark formerly LucaroarkZ

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    Are we really going to argue about using Knock Off, one of the worst moves in the game? Okay, maybe it cripples Chansey and other Eviolite users (Gligar and Shitclops are the only other relevant ones), but it's not going to help you out much in any other scenario since Pokemon that don't rely on Eviolite can live without their held item. Mandibuzz isn't even worth using anyway; if I wanted a Special wall I'd use Chansey, Snorlax, Porygon2, etc. Even if Knock Off were a good argument, what gets it?

    -Gligar (why not just Taunt Chansey?)
    -Machamp (hits super effectively anyway)
    -Sableye (Taunts/is immune to Seismic Toss anyway)
    -Mienshao (hits super effectively anyway)

    The RU/NU's that get it are either not viable or would rather have a more useful move.

    The way I see it, Chansey effectively neuters all Special attackers unless they cripple her with Trick (You don't really see Trick often on many Special attackers except Choice Chandelure and Zoroark). Oh, but that's not all! Chansey can even take on the non-Fighting Physical attackers! If you think you can just switch your Fighter in, nope! It'll get crippled by Thunder Wave. It takes no skill to use this pink bitch effectively. Not only can it help out balanced teams by mindlessly crippling threats with Thunder Wave, pretty much the only things that can OHKO/2HKO it are either Fighting-types or the strongest physical attackers in the tier. With that said, Chansey quite clearly threatens the diversity of UU as explained by FlareBlitz, which is why I think we should Ban Chansey.
  9. Salem1

    Salem1

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    I agree with this viewpoint. If your team can't handle Chansey then change your team, Chansey is not a mon that requires a specific counter there's lots of things you can do. Off the top of my head Xatu works perfectly. You can boost and pass, you can trick, you can set up screens with the free turn you get from reflecting status and that's just one mon. If this bracket can handle Heracross it can handle Chansey who gives players opportunities to inventively and flexibly deal with it, that you can't put 6 special attackers on a team and spam attack moves until you win (unless you bother to counter Chansey that is) is a good thing to me. People reacting by saying something is overpowered just because it counters their good old chosen strategy is just standard fare in gaming, the initial wave of negativity must be ridden out for objectivity to come to light.

    Imo this bracket can only benefit from the diversification that Chansey brings, the good will outweigh the bad. I'll need more battles to say if I think Chansey should stay in UU or not absolutely but for now I'm positive to it.
  10. Adamant Zoroark

    Adamant Zoroark formerly LucaroarkZ

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    If your team can't handle Darkrai then change your team.
    If your team can't handle Thundurus then change your team.
    If your team can't handle Mewtwo then change your team.

    Not necessarily advocating not changing your team to adapt to certain threats, but you can use the "if your team can't handle *pokemon* then change your team" to advocate basically removing Ubers/BL/BL2/BL3. If the metagame a Pokemon creates is bad, then we should ban it. And, in my honest opinion, the metagame Chansey creates is awful.
  11. PK Gaming

    PK Gaming Pursuing My True Self
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    The issue with Chansey is that it literally invalidates 90% of the Special Sweepers. Not just the special sweepers that deserve it or the ones you think could use a nerf. No. Chansey literally makes EVERY Special Attacker (with the exception of a lucky few) a liability in UU. On top of that, every single Chansey check in the tier (besides Gligar) is RUINED Thunder Wave. I hate it when people suggest to use Fighting-types to check Chansey. If you switch a Fighting-type into Chansey, it's just going to Twave your Fighter, render it useless and switch out. Nobody is stupid enough to keep their Chansey in on a Fighting-type, so its just not feasibly possible to kill Chansey at ANY point in the early / mid game against someone decent. The special attackers that can bypass Chansey are sub users need to use sub(lol)-standard EV spreads, need to be in tip condition to come out on top against Chansey and are hilarious few in number. They can't even switch in! It's just a case of "these substandard pokemon don't mind Chansey as much."

    Trick users aren't even a failsafe against Chansey because:
    A) Eventually they'll be obvious
    B) Are limited in number (I can count 3 viable trick users off the top of my head)

    If you want to Chansey-proof your team, your going to have lean heavy on the hazards AND run multiple Chansey-bypassing physical attackers.

    I don't want to run Scrafty / SATCBC (Special Attacker That Can Bypas Chansey) on every team or just spam Physical Attackers just to succeed in UU, fuck that. I want to be able to run a variety of threats (like Specs Empoleon! That kicked ass before Chansey showed up) and team styles. Seriously, everyone suffers with Chansey in the tier, and there is no net benefit to keeping Chansey in UU. None.

    PS: Chansey excels on offensive teams, not just stall teams. It's a 10-in-one kind of Pokemon.
  12. Nas

    Nas
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    All the points made by FlareBlitz and PK Gaming are true so I will not reiterate them in this post, but I would like to say that the popular argument of "use SubCM Mismagius" or "use Crocune" or "insert sub-par special attacker that can beat Chansey 1 on 1 here" is not a valid argument as to why Chansey should stay in UU. None of these Pokemon hinder Chansey from doing her job, they just force her to switch to an appropriate teammate.

    This, pretty much. Chansey is way too centralizing in UU and has created a shitty metagame around it.
  13. TPO3

    TPO3 Never practice; Always perform.

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    There's so much wrong with this logic. "If you can't counter pokemon X, change your team." LucaroarkZ's post is the proper response to this. Just because a pkmn has checks and counters does not mean it isn't broken. If you want to use that logic, let's unban Sand Stream and let Excadrill come to play in UU. It is walled by Gligar and Bronzong after all, right?

    What's so threatening about Chansey is that it really doesn't have any viable counters, save for Taunt Gligar. PK touched on this quite well. Anything that wants to switch in (Mienshao, Heracross, Taunt Crobat) gets Thunder Waved, and anything with Trick is exstremely obvious. I can't believe other people suggest that Chansey isn't broken because you could just use Knock Off. This is exactly what we're trying to prove. If you don't run multiple physical attackers, as well as a plethora of hazards on your team, you just lose.

    The fact that Chansey can survive Adamant Heracross's Close Combat 100% of the time (75% of the time after Stealth Rock) should prove how ludicrously bulky this pokemon is. If it can survive a SE STAB Base 120 Power attack coming from a Pkmn with base 125 Attack, max EVs, and a boosting nature, imagine what other physical attackers would do. Chansey not only nukes 90% of the special attackers in the tier, but it also nukes some physical ones, which I touched on earlier. (See: Sharpedo, who fails to 2HKO with Waterfall when using adamant. If you use Jolly, you might even fail to 3HKO.) The UU tier cannot "benefit from the diversity that chansey brings" because it literally does not bring any. It just causes the meta to be ridiculously over-centralized, by making teams use shitty Pokemon and moves, like Sub CM Mismagius, Calm Mind Xatu, and Knock Off anything. I know it's cool that stall teams are viable, but realistically, it's not worth it to bring back 1 play style when an extremely large portion of the tier gets nuked as a trade off. Especially when the one play style everyone is hyping about Chansey bringing back (stall) is still going to end up being less common, less good than other play styles. (See: Chansey on balanced and Chansey on Hail.)
  14. Salem1

    Salem1

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    Except that none of the mons you mentioned are defensive which is what we have a lack of in UU and also means that Chansey is easier to react to since it won't come in and threaten to OHKO something or sweep your team and it's also very predictable. I'm well aware of that fallacy you mention but just because you use an argument doesn't mean you're using the fallacy.


    You could do better than use hyperbole to inflate my argument beyond what I intended with the classical ''by your logic'' line. I never said we should unban X or Y because 2 mons can wall X or Y so don't make it look like I'm saying something I'm not. You don't have to select from 2 mons in the whole tier to check or counter Chansey, there's plenty of mons that are both useable and do well against Chansey.

    I also don't see what's so broken about being able to status switch-ins. If you don't want to get thunder waved you can use a ground type like Rhyperior (pick your pain between getting rock polish or choice band used against you), Golurk, Krookodile, you can use something that can't be paralyzed like Hitmonlee or even Electivire if you don't mind, you can use something that benefits from status like guts Machamp, you can switch in a boosting sweeper that doesn't care about status like shed skin Scrafty or chesto rest Kingdra, you can reflect the status with Xatu and do whatever you want with the free turn.

    You don't need ''multiple physical attackers and a plethora of hazards'', you need one mon that can't be worn down by status or takes advantage of status. I also don't see why surviving Heracross's adamant close combat is such a big deal considering that the worst it'll do is paralyze Heracross, I'd gladly trade an enemy's mon for spending a turn using heal bell. You also only talk about situations in which you switch into Chansey, but you don't touch the other way around or when they switch in simultaneously.

    Your point about Sharpedo was better but not particularily convincing considering that Sharpedo is not noted for its ability to OHKO things off the bat to begin with and that Sharpedo in particular can run taunt to prevent getting paralyzed or Chansey wish-passing.
  15. TPO3

    TPO3 Never practice; Always perform.

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    That's just the point. It is a decent last resort, but I don't want to throw a last resort move on all my teams just to make sure I have Chansey countered. Kind of like I don't want to throw Wish on all my teams as a last resort for recovery. There's also the fact that so few pokemon can use knock off. Gligar and Sableye I think were given as examples. Gligar has 4 moveslot syndrome as it is between Stealth Rock, Roost, Toxic, Taunt, Earthquake, and U-turn. Adding Knock Off really just makes it worse. Sableye just has so much better moves to be using, and nobody would keep Chansey in on Sableye anyways, because of Prankster Taunt.

    I wasn't inflating your argument. You said, "If your team can't handle Chansey, then change your team." You can say the same exact thing about literally every pokemon in every tier in the game.

    Also, it's not that Chansey doesn't have checks/counters. We all know it does. It's just that most of these checks and counters are extremely shitty outside of countering Chansey. (See: Calm Mind Baton Pass Xatu. That Pokemon is terrible.) Chansey is overcentralizing to the point that you have to waste either nuke a spot on your team, or severely nerf a pokemon's moveset to make sure you have Chansey down. (See: Taunt Sharpedo. Against Chansey? Great. Against everything else? Terrible.)

    EDIT: Oh, I just realized. Xatu can't even have Baton Pass and Magic Bounce at the same time, which makes it an even worse check.

    We bring this up because a counter is defined as a Pokmon that can switch in and either reliably KO, or threaten enough to force a switch out before the target does its job. The only things that can really stop Chansey are Taunt, Trick, Knock Off, and repeated physical attacks. As far as physical attackers go, Rhyperior, Machamp, and Krookodile are the only things with high enough physical attack that are willing to switch into Chansey multiple times while actually having the power to scare it out. Anything else (Heracross, Mienshao, Arcanine) all get crippled by Thunder Wave. So have you countered Chansey? Technically yes, but you've also basically given yourself a dead team slot in the process. There's plenty with Taunt, but again, only Gligar really wants to switch in. They're really nothing more than checks.
  16. Super Mario Bro

    Super Mario Bro All we ever look for

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    You are looking at this one-dimensionally. If you want to scout which status Chansey is using, you can always switch in something with Natural Cure, or something that doesn't mind status (like Bronzong -- Thunder Wave actually powers up its Gyro Ball). Chansey is set-up bait for Roserade all day every day.

    After you have found out what status Chansey is using (T-Wave or Toxic), she's not so horribly difficult to deal with. If Chansey has Thunder Wave, Ground-types like Rhyperior and Claydol don't care about it and can use the switch-in opportunity to do whatever they want. If she has Toxic, Fighting types like Mienshao don't really mind switching in and forcing it out.

    I guess one of the reasons Chansey hasn't been such a pain in my experiences is because I play with hail. *shrug*
  17. Stone RG

    Stone RG Megas are broke

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    Now what u said would be right except for, umm, whats the word, umm, its wrong.

    I didnt play uu at the time b4 it was ou so i cant say if it was deemed broken in that time, but thats not what we are discussing here, its if its broken NOW. But as i see the metagame, it seems to me like chnsey doesnt give a crap about every fighting in the tier, specially when you can just run a cofagrigus (gligar+blob is perfectly beatable by mix virizion or LO shao). And even then, if youre relying in guts heracross then youre giving up a late game sweep more often than not, and even with the attk boost, status still takes its toll on your hp. And please, nobody is staying in with chansey against your scrafty or your mienshao, that is inherently stupid, i dont care about calcs, loosing 75% to a reckless HJK (idk bout the calc for that one i dont wanna know) or letting scafty set up on you isnt something a smart person would do, you might as well switch to your fighting counter.

    Finally, we all know once your hard hitting fighting is gone youre screwed, the blob is perfectly capable of stalling entire teams by itself because out side of fighting types, nothing in the tier can 2HKO it (maybe im wrong? i hope so because then i dont have to put 3 fighting in all my teams).
  18. Adams

    Adams

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    I would say to ban Chansey. I have to run two fighting types on my team now, and if they are KOed before Chansey then the battle is pretty much over. Also against teams with one one fighting type mon, I can KO their fighting pokemon and then wall them to hell.
  19. HR.

    HR.

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    I'm just now getting back into UU after a long hiatus, and man has the tier changed. Chansey is and always will be an annoying blob, and I'll always hate it, which is why I built a team full of stuff that shits on Chansey. As of now, I don't have a full opinion on if Chansey is fit for UU or not, but I'll probably have more of an opinion after playing more opponents that actually know how to use Chansey properly. It's good to see that even though so much has changed, certain pokes such as Heracross and Roserade still dominate the tier, and I can use the same strategy I used years ago to success.
  20. Lord of Bays

    Lord of Bays

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    "OHKO" without qualification (appending "with Stealth Rocks, Spikes, prior damage, etc.") implies that the attack deals a minimum of 100%. Such as "Darmanitan's Flare Blitz OHKOs Shaymin".

    That being said, Guts and Moxie ARE boosts. But only Mienshao, Adamant Heracross, and Machamp have guaranteed OHKOs out the gate outside of Choice Band, and they all require a Life Orb. Lets reiterate that: Three physical Pokémon with at least base 125 Attack require their most powerful moves and a Life Orb to OHKO a Pokémon weak to their STABs and that has 5 fucking base points in Defense. Adamant Choice Band Darmanitan has a 5% chance to OHKO with Superpower.

    I haven't played UU in a long time, but I guess I won't be playing for a little while longer.
  21. silenced

    silenced

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    In terms of complex bans, I'd like to offer a second suggestion over the eviolite one if I can. My complex ban suggestion would be that you cannot use wish on chansey's moveset.

    I have to admit, I was not around for the last time chansey was legal in UU, but to me, the wish passing seems the biggest problem. I would think it unfair that you can pretty much heal anyone on your team back to nearly full health (depending on HP of pokemon in question) with the only way around this either through taunt or correctly predicting the wish receipient switching in.

    Failing to OHKO it I would not see as a problem as I would like to think people can give a bit more thought to their teams rather than try and simply smash through everything with a CB/CS equipped pokemon.

    I've also seen some arguments in the suspect thread about it spreading status that got on my nerves a bit. There's a big difference between a crippled pokemon and a fainted pokemon, IMO. I think it is a bit silly to expect not to cop status to pokemon you run or not trying to play around it, especially given other status-inducing irritations such as sableye and porygon2, to name a few off the top of my head. And yes, while it does suck to have your pokemon slown down or on a timer, it can still do things to aid you in battle, even if you are somewhat handicapped.

    I think this suggestion would allow stall to remain viable, while also preventing it from becoming an unkillable nightmare by preventing the amount of "team playing capability" chansey would otherwise provide in a seemingly broken manner.
  22. Nyara

    Nyara

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    Just use Knock Off on the blob... or Trick, or Thief, or Taunt, or 101+ HP substitute users, classic moves, huge distribution, really, really effective against almost any wall, specially this one. With that huge plethora of moves to use against this wall, and almost any wall... I don't think it's necessary to ban it, or do a complex ban on it, after all, Chansey is nothing without it's Eviolite or if get taunted, weak to all hazards, and if you can put Toxic Spikes and taunt her when she tries to heal it, you'll gonna put real pressure on the blob. It's not Lugia or something with god-like natural bulk, and any setup special sweeper can pass behind the blob with the correct moves.

    Of course, it's titanic Wishes are annoying as hell, but with SR and some other hazards on the field you should be able to not let it do that too offen or with perfect results.

    Hyperoffensive teams without any support move at all can do a good job just using powerful STAB-Fighting moves to aim for the OHKO or 2HKO, that should be already a standar on any offensive team, anyway. Leech Seed users can also enjoy recovering a huge part of it's HP while Chansey is Wishing. On general, sleep is also a doom spell for the blob, because if it can't heal itself, it's easy to wear down.
  23. Avira

    Avira

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    And how is this relevant?

    If you're investing everything into maximizing a Pokemon's physical defense, it can survive STAB SE hits provided that its physical defense isn't absolutely terrible. Shaymin for example, can survive Heracross's Megahorn depending on the amount of EV investment.

    That it also has great special special defensive ability doesn't necessarily mean that it's broken. There are special attackers that can help you retain momentum (or at least indirectly help with keeping the momentum up) as Chansey switches in, and the tier being littered with Spikes (Roserade and Froslass) really puts a damper on a wall that has no Leftovers recovery. Each time it's forced out after it comes in decreases its utility, as it will have to spend more time healing itself, and the extent that it passes Wishes is in part, controlled by the opponent. The Chansey player can't just pass Wishes to anything he/she wants, and you can determine whether the opponent gets the chance to heal that crucial Pokemon that's effective against your team or not with what you bring out to the field.
  24. Ace Emerald

    Ace Emerald Horsing around
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    The problem with Chansey isn't that it cannot be beaten. Yes, its beatable for sure. The problem with Chansey is that it makes anything that cannot beat it (a large number of Pokemon) veritable dead-weight until it you kill it, which can take a long time. As a result, it has a major impact on teambuilding. And before anyone says "Well you have to prepare for top threats," there is a major difference between preparing your team for Chansey and preparing it for a legitimate top threat like Darmanitan. Darmanitan puts a strain on teambuilding, yes. But there are different levels of teambuilding strain. While Darmanitan does encourage the use of Water/Rock types, it doesn't make any Pokemon it does well against unviable. Just because Darmanitan can force out/OHKO Heracross, Shaymin, and many other Pokemon, those Pokemon still see use. Using a Darmanitan weak Pokemon won't handicap you. But using a Pokemon weak to Chansey means you're playing 5-6 until that bitch dies. Just because something has checks and counters and is beatable doesn't mean it is healthy for the metagame.
  25. Godsend

    Godsend

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    In all honesty, I think people just don't want to think outside of the box. Specs Shaymin maybe less viable, (still good with the chance of Sp.D drops but whatevs) but how about Sub Seed? That thing messes with Chansey so bad. Shaymin gets a huge percentage of hp back at the end of each turn coupled with Leftovers. Shit, even an offensive variant with Leech Seed could work. And, don't compare this to "adapting" to something retarded like Rayquaza. I don't know, people just don't seem to like... trying in their team building.
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