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UU Suspect Discussion - Chansey

Discussion in 'BW UU' started by kokoloko, Jan 5, 2013.

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  1. Upstart

    Upstart Copy Cat

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    I couldn't agree more. Honestly chansey is a monster however no more of a monster than mienshao and zapdos. If one does not prepare for a top tier threat they will be punished. I don't think chansey was given a fair shake. As soon as she dropped people shout ban without even granting her a fair trial.

    I am on the fence on the banning of chansey. On one hand she is a filler wall that provides offense with a emergency in case a sweeper breaks one's momentum. This makes chansey quite a formidable force as she can immediately halt momentum while giving the trainer and opportunity to recover from what may have been a crippling defeat. While on the other hand chansey has revitalized stall while being hindered by it lack of offensive presence coupled with a heavy reliance on an item. I have found that Chansey has had a positive affect on the metagame but find herself to be a slight hindrance.
  2. Machi

    Machi

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    Just want to point out that this so called "outside the box" solution was pretty much used when Chansey was around, in fact the solutions being proposed are pretty much rehashes of how Chansey was handled in the first place (Shaymin has always been one possible solution because of either 101 subs or SpD drops to make tanking flare seed a gamble). Put another way despite the presence of more fighters dropping down they're not actually too significant in dealing with Chansey as they're not exactly turning out to be the best solutions out there. Its a bit of a surprise to realize that despite all the shifts and new drop downs the options of dealing with Chansey generally remain largely unchanged.

    If anything as mentioned many times Chansey actually does limit team building because of just how much physical and especially special attackers that she invalidates because of the momentum you lose being forced to switch out since they can hardly put a dent on her while she proceeds to support the team during the switch.

    While there is some merit in the drop down of Chansey in that as some have noted its at least moved UU away from the slugfest it at best would be a shoddy solution to that issue because Chansey is in no way balanced wall, its capable of walling both spectrums without compromise to either defenses as well as being blessed with a plethora of support moves. Sure it may lack offensive presence but it forces switches effectively nonetheless and wracks up hazard damage on the opposing side while regaining momentum on yours, either with full health wishes/aromatherapy or status in Thunderwave/Toxic either way you're left guessing it may be limited but its highly effective because not guessing right puts you at a disadvantage.
  3. Ace Emerald

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    I'd like to expand upon something I posted above in direct response to these two posts. In concept, you're right. One must prepare for threats, that's how the metagame works. But there's a major difference between something that's threatening enough to require planning, and something that's so threatening that it all nearly invalidates anything it beats. I'll use Zapdos as an example, because it's a top threat and Upstart mentioned it. You've got to plan for Zapdos. It will tear you a new one if you don't. But just because something is beaten by Zapdos doesn't mean that it isn't as good. The fact that Zapdos shuts down Crobat all but entirely doesn't hurt the latter's usage at all. Even though Zapdos and Raikou are everywhere, Crobat still sees a high amount of usage (by good players might I add). However, this isn't so with Chansey. If you have a Zapdos that lacks Volt Switch versus a Chansey, it's dead weight. You're shaving off 25% health for nothing. Even with Volt Switch, hazard damage and lack of recovery hurt Zapdos. It'd be ok (spec zappy is good) if Zapdos could do something, but it can't. All it's doing is keeping momentum, and you're most likely about to lose it again because there are several Pokemon that have Fighters on lock down. CM Raikou is a thing of the past. Azelf can't do anything but set up Rocks really. Mixed PZ (use it) is the only Porygon-Z worth using, and even that can't break Chansey if it gets a Special Attack boost (thankfully everyone runs that 4 in SpD).

    Yeah, stuff like Sub Seed Shaymin and mixed PZ beat Chansey. Chansey is definitely beatable. But honestly, the strain on teambuilding is too strong. Good Pokemon become bad solely because they are bad against Chansey. If they were borderline and Chansey pushed them over the edge, it'd be one thing. But great Pokemon will become worse team picks because of one Pokemon. Not the metagame as whole pushing these Pokemon down, one Pokemon. Actually, it kind of is the metagame because Chansey is the metagame. Pokemon and sets live and die by Chansey (who used Sub Seed Shaymin before Chansey?), and that kind of metagame control exerted by one Pokemon is undesirable. It's not Rayquaza, it won't 6-0 you. But it works it's way into the metagame, controlling it to a level one Pokemon shouldn't. It's not lazy teambuilding, its painful teambuilding where every member of your team is picked with one, single, solitary Pokemon in mind. If that kind of teambuilding and metagame appeal to you, I'll respect your opinion. But it doesn't to me and a large number of other players. In cases of opinion like this, it has to be majority rules. If the majority turn out to be with Chansey, I'll put up with it, but it doesn't seem like it.

    imo Upstart, the cry against Chansey was in no way "not giving it a fair trial." A large number of users had played with it, it had already gotten trial enough to bitch about. Not trial enough to ban, as metagame's change, but trial enough to bitch about and call for a real trial (which is what it's getting) automatically. Also, FlareBlitz has some great arguments about why Chansey decreases skill, and the last bit about balance and diversity echo's what I'm arguing.
  4. Godsend

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    See, I just agree with the notion of the likes of Raikou and Volt Switch-less Zapdos being bad now that Chansey is here. I've still been sweeping with Raikou. I don't dedicate 6 or even as many as three Pokemon to beating Chansey. Just because he's less useful while Chansey is alive doesn't mean much to me. I know it isn't the perfect example by any means, but it's like Heracross with out Earthquake is not incredibly useful while my opponent has a Nidoqueen. Again, I know Nidoqueen =/= Chansey but it's the same principal.



    I'll be honest, I don't like playing against Chansey, but that doesn't mean she's broken. The reason I don't like quick bans/suspects is they don't give time to adjust. The proverbial rock has barely hit the water, drops are still falling. I'm not necessarily against a ban on Chansey, I just think the pond should settle before we make any rash decisions, since UU bans are pretty permanent.
  5. ElectivireRocks

    ElectivireRocks Banned deucer.

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    That's what a wall is supposed to do you know.
    Just like water types in OU are usually worthless as long as Ferrothorn is around.
    And it's simply not true that many pokemon can't do anything back to Chansey. Anything with 101 subs and a setup or status move can easily use her as fodder, giving you momentum.
  6. kokoloko

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    Okay so I moved all the posts regarding Chansey from the megathread to this thread, but I ended up deleting a ton of them because they were not up to the standard I'm holding suspect discussions to.

    Anyway, keep the Chansey discussion here, and remember, we're not banning Chansey just because it can tank Heracross's Close Combat. Its sheer bulk is not the reason its good, its the purpose it serves that makes Chansey as good as it is.

    Also my two cents, since I can't vote anymore:

    Chansey is broken for a couple of reasons. For one, it encourages bad (more accurately, "careless") play by being a super-fat cushion for offensive and balanced teams against way too many threats. This is FlareBlitz's main argument and I 100% agree with him.

    More important however, is the huge strain that Chansey puts on teambuilding. Here's the thing, Chansey is so good that there's almost no reason not to use it (because even if it is a momentum-killing fat fuck, it helps offensive teams via cushioning and paralysis), so you have to assume that most good players you face will be using it. What this means is that almost every special attacker is dead weight, things like Swampert and standard Rhyperior (lol RHYPERIOR can't touch it, isn't that something?), and even many status-inducers (because Chansey can just come in and Aromatherapy at almost any time, become liabilities and/or dead weight on a team. This does not lead to a healthy metagame if you ask me; so basically, Chansey is broken because it "breaks" the metagame.

    And no, its not the same thing as a generic special wall because no generic special wall is too good not to use, so you don't have to make that initial assumption that every good player will be using it.
  7. Jeffbelittle

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    ^Everything koko just said.

    He's too over-centralizing of a Pokemon because there really isn't a team whether it be stall, balanced, or even hyper offensive that doesn't benefit greatly from having a Pokemon that can switch in on any turn, heal/cure status/ apply status, And provide a new free switch in with Wish.

    Does tricking a choice band on him help? Yeah absolutely. It's not infallible. If it was it'd be in Ubers, not UU.

    Are there current UU Pokemon that do relatively well against the Pink ball? Sure. Mostly all of them are physical but sure.

    The Pokemon still however is in a class better than any other in the tier. There are teams where you don't just stick a Jolly Scarf Moxie Heracross and make it better. But very very few teams get worse with Chansey.

    She's incredibly unhealthy for the meta game for these reasons.
  8. Ace Emerald

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    Can you really say any other wall in a balanced metagame walls as much as Chansey does? Walling Pokemon is what a wall is supposed do, but the keywords of that quote you have of mine are "a large number of Pokemon." Cofagrigus can check nearly any Fighting-type (gogo Scrafty), but it, 1) doesn't wall the majority of physical attackers because, 2) it is much easier to break due to lower bulk and lack of recovery. But honestly, as many users have stated, its walling abilities, while more impressive than any other wall, aren't the direct reason it's broken. Its use as a crutch as outlined by FlareBlitz and its weight on the metagame as outlined by both kokoloko and myself are the biggest reasons it's broken.
  9. Metal Sonic

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    Chansey takes hits. It takes all kinds of hits. Putting one on your team will turn an awfully weak core into a super strong one. It just switches in on nearly anything, barring some of the most powerful physical threats in the meta, and heals or does whatever it wants before switching back out. And spotting the one Pokemon on your opponent's team that can actually kill Chansey is a really easy task, so it's not gonna die unless you're getting swept.

    I just don't think it's reasonable to have a supporter who can run around, sponge up almost every attacker in the game, and pass MASSIVE Wishes, cure the team with Aromatherapy... AND have natural cure, so you can't even wear it down with Toxic.

    As has been said in the previous posts, even the most powerful physical attacker in the gamecannot cleanly OHKO Chansey at a 100% rate:

    252Atk Choice Band Mold Breaker Rampardos (+Atk) Superpower vs 252HP/252Def Eviolite Chansey (+Def): 96% - 113% (680 - 802 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. 80% chance to OHKO.

    It's absolutely unheard of for a Pokemon to survive an attack like that on their weaker side and ALSO be nigh untouchable on their strong side.

    Meanwhile our metagame is loaded up with eager walls who want to do their thing, but are made pointless by Chansey's superiority, outside of a handful of niche scenarios.

    Chansey is an insane Special wall and is even good on the physical side. It invalidates and outclasses other viable UU special walls such as claydol or Bronzong and even causes people to put at least 1 specific Chansey counter on their team on purpose, which is pretty centralising.

    She is not healthy for the metagame.

    The pokemon listed above which "counter" Chansey such as Subseed Shaymin and mixed PZ are extremely predictable and irrelevant. In order for these things to actually work, the Pokemon countering Chansey has to already be on the field. You cant stop Chansey by taunting it after it already used Wish, and you can't kill it with Leech Seed. If you're capable of 101 Subs, Chansey probably shouldn't even be trying to seismic toss. Very few sweepers or offensive Pokemon even GET the list of things that "stop" Chansey. If Chansey's getting stalled out, then something is wrong. It shouldn't stay in on one of the rare things that aren't bothered by it.
  10. ElectivireRocks

    ElectivireRocks Banned deucer.

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    What about the infamous Substitute set Mismagius used to run in DP which made Chansey cry?
    You can easily get +6 Sp.Atk if she's stupid enough to stay in, PP stall her Softboiled/Wish PP and eventually beat her.
    At the very worst you're forcing her out while you get a free turn to setup.
    Or you could even try PerishTrapping against her instead of the standard SubNP set. It works surprisingly often.

    Chansey is, and will always be, the ultimate setup fodder in my book.
  11. Nyara

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    I'm not seen Chansey as something that can "struggle" your teambuilding, actually, almost any balanced and offensive team should have wallbreakers for it's partners, because and otherwise, a sweep or just a general efficience is impossible, what is the difference with Chansey? It "usually" check a lot of things, the key word should be "usually", because you can beat the blob with a good number of ways:

    1. Trick, Thief, Knock Off just cripple her for all the match, seeing the fantastic distribution of those move, you can perfectly use them on 1-2 of your Pokémon, or on your Special Sweeper, and make with a simple move the game an almost 6vs5, easy, doesn't it? Even if Chansey switch-outs predicting it, it's partner will be on the danger of lose it's item, a bad thing for sure. Of course, you can overpredict Chansey, too, just using the move when you think she will switch-in (after all, people switch-in her with all careless).

    2. Generally, any user of Taunt can beat her, physical or special one, and more if you're using a trapping move like Mean Look, of course, it's not a so common option, but it works not only with Chansey, but with almost any wall, so, it's a good option to have on almost any team.

    3. Chansey is not the unique special wall of the game, we have some premiers over there like Slowking (who had also Regenerator), and usually, your special sweeper will be unnable to sweep until you beat it's check, that's something normal, sweepers have checks, otherwise we could just spam powerful moves and win the game without any need to think. Chansey checks more threats, but almost all she does is to check them and use paralize support, because she can't do anything else at all, at the difference of other special walls.

    4. Usually, when Chansey is alone, she will lose the game, because she can't beat anything on 1vs1 at all. And if she doesn't end alone at the end of the game, then it means you beated her before, and thus, making your path to just special sweep to the oblivion the opposition, because teams with Chansey doesn't tend to have more checks to special attackers, and thus, you have almost the victory winned.

    5. Ground Type Pokémon leave Chansey without any chance to do nothing, so, any Ground Type Pokémon will check her to the end of times, same goes for Limber users, not the best thing, but it seriously comes handy.

    6. On general, a balanced team should have clerics, because Chansey is not the unique thing that can spread burn/paralize to the team, and balanced teams doesn't tend to have too many raw power to just destroy everything before it happens, and clerics are the Chansey's number one issues to make a help to it's team.

    7. If she wish pass, you can easily predict it and destroy the switch-in or switch to it's counter, like the move Protect, it can comes like a double-edge sword.

    8. Toxic Spikes make her almost a dead weight.

    9. Any user with Toxic can do the same as Toxic Spikes do, and more if they predict it's switch in, a good move to have between your special sweepers, because it doesn't only cripple Chansey.

    10. Any special sweeper or physical attacker that can deal 50%+ of damage to Chansey can make her thing twice before switch-in, or even if she does switch-in when you din't attacke, Chansey will just paralize you and switch, leaving you with a free setup turn, and a free attack to the switch-in, and if Chansey remains, you can just make her healing herself on every turn until you drain it's PP, if you're with a bit of lucky of not being full paralized more than 3 times.

    11. Lum Berry is a good option if you want to check Chansey and actually any Thunder Wave and Sleep Powder user. Just setup or attack right away, and if you can deal her 34% or more of damage, then you can bypass it's Thunder Wave and K.O her or force it to switch-out. Less raw power is needed depending of the hazards on the field. 30%+ with SR on the field, less 2% of each layer of spikes, less 8% with one layer of Toxic Spikes, 6% with two layers. On the worst scenary, you can still beat her with 25%+ of damage per attack (less factoring hazards) and just face to being paralized, not a so-bad problem if your special attacker is slow or if you have a cleric.

    12. Sleep Clause to her, total spell doom to the blob.

    13. Ghost Types with substitute or 101HP substitute users, they can also setup on her face, too.

    14. Safeguard can mantain safe your special sweepers from her as long they can setup Calm Mind or Nasty Plot to bypass the defense of the blob.

    15. Any STAB-Figthing move checks her. And any strong Fighthing Move on decent users, too.

    16. Pressure users can overstall her without any major problem and on any moment, if you're using one.

    17. Hitmonlee. (With Limber)

    18. Slow Guts users can actually use it's Thunder Wave for good. Any user with Toxic or Flame Orb doesn't fear nothing from Chansey, too.

    19. Gothorita trap with Rest. Wynaut trap.

    20. Trapping moves alone usually works, too, and more if she's trying to wish pass.

    So, Chansey can be used as setup fodder by a good number of threats, Chansey can be dealed or beated by a good, good number of support moves, Chansey have huges problems against Sleep and Toxic (actually, more from Toxic Spikes, and Sleep if used by what it's trying her to check), and doesn't enjoy paralize, too. Chansey can be trapped. Chansey can be overstalled. Chansey can be bypassed by a good number of special attackers with the correct moves or items. Chansey doesn't any surprise factor at all. The cleric variant is easier to handle because she can't pass titanic wishes, so, she's prone to being dead weight without any major trouble. Toxic variants are even easier to handle, but they will reduce your time of sweeping, but you can still sweep with it if you have the correct moves, anyway.

    Not counting the obvious posibility of hax by doing critical-hits, freezing it with your special sweeper, special defense reduction, and all that stuff, not relevant at all. Of course not all the metods works with all of the sets, but the majority works at some degree with all the sets, and if you can't handle any, but any way of those wallbreaking metods on your team, then Chansey is not your unique problem.
  12. DestinyUnknown

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    Ace Emerald described it pretty well with that awesome Rayquaza sentence, but anyway @ above post:

    Yeah, there's of course ways of beating Chansey, but you have to consider that Chansey isn't fucking alone, it's just 1 pokemon out of a team of 6. What I mean with this is that it's stupid to say ''if you want to kill Chansey use Mienshao man'', because chances are, your opponent has a hard Mienshao counter you can't wear easily down. Of course, this is applicable to every pokemon, so it's not a reason to say something should be banned. However, Chansey is the exception because it can switch in and beat the 85% of pokemon in the tier, and the problem is, you can't just say ''once you kill Chansey those pokemon can sweep the team'' because killing Chansey is a huge pain in the ass. Chansey isn't like Snorlax or Umbreon, which despite being good Special walls that stop a lot of pokemon, they can be worn down by clever playing / suiciding etc Snorlax and Umbreon are also easy to force out with strong physical attackers, which just isn't the case with Chansey as it can beat almost every physical attacker in the tier 1on1 too. Chansey restricts teambuilding a lot because a lot pokemon in the tier become almost unusable because they simply let Chansey come in for free without accomplishing anything, and as I said, the argument of ''but once you get rid of Chansey they're good...'' because there's no way you're getting rid of Chansey if the opponent is good.

    @Nyara: As for the ways you give to deal with Chansey, most of them aren't either true: Sleep isn't beating Chansey as it can just switch out, Ground types don't beat it (yeah I'm sure Swampert and Nidoking beat Chansey ), nobody is leaving Chansey against something with Taunt and there aren't many pokemon that can use Taunt well in UU anyway , there's only 1 pokemon with Guts in UU (Heracross, which is one of the best ways of breaking teams with Chansey but it still has its array of checks and counters), Trick and Knock Off aren't viable on many pokemon and Chansey it's their only target (again, teambuild restricting) and it's also quite easy to see them coming so chances are you're not crippling Chansey with them.... etc I'm not going to bother replying to all of your ''points'' as a lot of them are stupid (no offense, but seriously how can you compare Slowking and Chansey rofl)
  13. Machi

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    What shoots your post in the foot despite the detail largely belongs to this mentality. Chansey is easily a very unique special wall, to the point that it is capable of slowing down the metagame from an offensive one to one that favors a more defensive approach, because first and foremost she walls both ends of the spectrum fairly well. If you're familiar with any of the calcs you know for a fact that majority of the physical attacks won't dent her much in the slightest which is something no other special wall can boast without hindering their capacity to wall special attacks. That's only her bulk we're not even considering the vast array of support moves she has from hazard setting to reliable recovery and status, again no wall special or physical can boast this except Clefable which is already a praise given that Clefable is one of the most blessed mons in terms of movepool. The icing in the cake of course is that Chansey is able to take on many Pokemon 1 on 1, its just another thing that pushes her over the edge, because of her bulk access to reliable recovery and status that leads to the most infuriating way of dying by Seismic toss again without compromise of her bulk. If you do not find that unique among the other walls then...

    The rest of your solutions are far more situational in that they are looking into a match up that has practically forced Chansey into a 1 vs 1 situation with odds stacked against her, e.g. Toxic Spikes, or are very limited and not very viable, e.g. trapping (we have 2 viable mean look users while I would never advocate the use of the pre-evolved Shadow Tag users because its more dead weight than anything and very specific in tandem with toxic spikes/perish song). Or just plain reactionary in the instance that Chansey somehow decides to overstay her welcome, which really shouldn't happen unless you have some certainty in doing so.

    Of course part of Chansey's specialty is that it can go 1 vs 1 against many pokemon but primarily she is a wall and support Pokemon so its not necessarily the foremost priority of a Chansey user to have her stick around that long and risk being crippled. She comes in gains momentum by forcing out the attacker and in that period during the switch prepares the stage for the next member through her moves of either healing/status/hazard or Seismic Toss if its entirely filler at that point. The amount of offensive Pokemon that aren't forced out by Chansey switching in are by large very limited, mostly on the physical side with only a select few on the special side. Which is why a lot of the solutions posited to beat her on a 1 vs 1 match up really shouldn't be too high on the list of dealing with her rather what should be more considered are solutions that make her think twice of switching in or bar her from actually entering the match because that one turn of her getting in safely is enough to help her get a start on her job (she'll create momentum and support). Problem with that is you'd need some very good predictions to have that happen, solutions aimed to trap her are for instance on this scale because its very difficult to pull off and almost impossible to do so against skilled users (they see something odd or one of the few capable trappers on your team and they know something is up). Hence, very limited options in dealing with her because she just has a plethora of opportunities open to her, even more so when she can take most forms of offense without worry.
  14. jrrrrrrr

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    Can we stop theorymonning and start posting actual logs please? I've been playing this new meta since the day it came out and Chansey is AWFUL in it. It can't hurt ANYTHING.

    I want to see examples of peoples teams in this new metagame that are walled by Chansey. Literally any Rest user beats Chansey, any Fighting-type beats Chansey, any Taunt user beats Chansey, any Hail team beats Chansey, any Trick user beats Chansey...the list goes on and on of ways that are already viable to beat Chansey, and when you add new strategies (hail) that can beat it...things do not look good.

    Chansey forces your team to take tons of abuse that it otherwise wouldnt. This opens you up to crits and surprise movesets, like HP Ice Mienshao or Cobalion.

    Chansey is not a problem in this metagame. Especially with frickin ABOMASNOW running around
  15. Godsend

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    Thank you. In theory, Chansey is the bane of UU, but in practice, it's manageable. The lack of lefties is huge, even with her incredible bulk. If you keep pressure on the big egg, she'll crack.
  16. Upstart

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    I have played finally used chansey myself after fighting against her numerous times. I can attest that she is much better on paper. Hazards and hail punish her all while she acts as a welcome mat to get set up on by a number of threats. Sure she can tank a hit from a heracross assuming no prior damage or hazards but after that she left for dead. With no offensive presents i find myself preferring snorlax in many cases.

    To address the defensive core arguement, her defensive combo is only slightly different from defensive cores previously in uu. Her cores might be slightly stronger but beaten by wall breakers and smart playing just the same. Umbreon gligar/ cofag is a hard core to break with just one pokemon. But just as chansey has teammates as does your own attacking pokemon. Furthermore it seems unfounded to argue chansey is most problematic on offensive teams as an e break. Then someone suggests a means of breaking chansey, chansey is suddenly on team with a perfect defensive counter team.

    As i said earlier i am on the fence. I hate banning things unless it is clearly broken beyond a reasonable doubt after a fair shake No your teams from last meta may not work but i would like some adaptations before crying ban.
  17. Metal Sonic

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    I have played about 20 games in this Chansey-infested metagame. In the least, it is a nuisance, walling each and every special attacker in my team. I have to switch to my Heracross or Mienshao, but once i CC or HJK, they switch out to some scumbag like Sableye or Gligar or whatever whorecore they have in their team. What's worse, is that Chansey can even tank Heracross when its choice locked into the wrong move, for example stone edge, and can nullify me Hera with a totally annoying Thunder Wave or just seismic toss me to death.

    Chansey can sit in front of my special sweepers and seismic toss spam or thunderwave it, for example CM Raikou. and because I have no recovery, I slowly but surely get walled by this idiotic egg that shouldn't be there.

    252SpAtk Life Orb +2 Raikou (Neutral) Thunderbolt vs 252HP/252SpDef Eviolite Chansey (+SpDef): 24% - 28% (172 - 204 HP). Guaranteed 5HKO.
  18. Jeffbelittle

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    After games fighting against Chansey, and using Chansey myself- I've found the pokemon grossly over centralizing.

    But i've said that before, so let me bring new ideas to the table.

    I didn't realize wish was 50% of the WISH users health. This brings "glass cannon" pokemon from 15% health to full in 1 wish pass. That's a lot easier said than done granted, but with most of your team Paralyzed.... it's not uncommon. There's just no reason not to have a Chansey..

    I've seen Chansey on hail teams. On stall teams. On hyper offensive teams. On balanced teams.... I can't see me not using Chansey unless I'm doing something monotype or quirky. Chansey just gives extra lives to your team. It promotes very risky decision making because you have a fail safe. At one point or another, you can safely get a wish passed to a Heracross. And if he got burned by a sableye, no big deal: chansey has heal bell. You can learn Heal Bell + Toss

    End of the day, here's my finisher- You know that feeling you get when you really know in your gut you need to sack a pokemon? You think: this guy is too slow to see another day. He's too low. And while very valuable, and needed to counter his "X" that he'd sweep with, I can't switch out. It'd only further cripple my team. That feeling is VIRTUALLY (not completely) gone when you have a Chansey. Every turn Chansey wishes, you have no clue if he's passing it to the 40% life heracross, or he's just going to wittle you down with another Seismic toss. It's not a 6v6 versus game breaking EVERYONE NEEDS A CHANSEY OP pokemon. But it's better than any pokemon in the tier, it makes SpA a thing of the past, and it's useful everywhere. He's just too damn overcentralizing.
  19. The Unlucky one

    The Unlucky one

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    Chansey is very similar to Genesect in OU. Chansey and Gene both do have a couple of counters but it makes a 2 pokemon core wall/sweep a majority of the metagame. For Genesect it was Gene+Duggy while for Chansey it is Chansey+Cofagrigus. Chansey lives a lot of fighting type moves as well and can retaliate with counter. Counter Chansey is another force in OU that is incredibly hard do deal with especially with Lunar Dance Cresselia backing it up.
  20. kokoloko

    kokoloko supersmooth
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Super Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Past SPL Winner
    UU Leader

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    Just so everyone is aware, the Senate is in the midst of a quickvote. I have them the option of quickbanning it or re-suspecting it at a later date as to not have another drastic metagame change in the middle of SPL.

    Some of you won't be happy with the outcome (regardless of what it is), and I'm sorry for that, but SPL puts me in a tough spot, so I had to make this call. Although to be honest, every member of the Senate was around the last time Chansey was in UU, so they all have plenty of experience to make this decision.

    Anyway, at the moment the vote is 3 quickban to 0 no-quickban, and we'll probably have the full result by tomorrow night. I didn't ask the Senators to write extended paragraphs this time because of the time issue, but I will do so if/when it gets quickbanned (I just wanted a fast result).

    And just so everyone knows, I'm more than open to taking corrective action if down the line we notice we made a mistake by quickbanning it, so let's not just assume it'll be gone forever.

    Anyway, I'm locking this now because its kinda pointless to keep it open. I assure you the Senate will take every post in this thread into consideration when making their decision. I'll make another post here once the results are in.

    Don't kill me please!

    That is all.
  21. kokoloko

    kokoloko supersmooth
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Super Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Past SPL Winner
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    Okay, I've gotten six votes up until now, and so far it's been a unanimous decision to quick-ban.

    Here's why, in the words of your Senators:

    PK Gaming (open)

    Chansey is absolutely broken in UU. It shuts down 90% of the tier without a modicum of effort on the users part and completely halts offensive momentum.

    Chansey is certainly beatable, but to say that its manageable on average, is laughable. I do not enjoy playing a metagame where my options are limited to a handful of Pokemon.

    Get this broken piece of garbage out of my tier please.

    quickban


    RT. (open)

    Chansey is unhealthy for the metagame because it a) pretty much invalidates 90% of special sweepers in the tier b) is incredibly hard to kill c) reduces skill by serving as a panic button, mitigating the impact of mispredicts and bad play d) offers ridiculous levels of team support (SR, 352 HP Wishes, Heal Bell, T-Wave)

    quickban


    reachzero (open)
    Chansey is so hard to kill that it invalidates many of the most otherwise-threatening Pokemon in the metagame and together with a few friends makes stall nigh-unbreakable for even strongly built offense.

    Quickban


    DestinyUnknown (open)

    Chansey's qualities as a wall makes most of the pokemon in the tier completely useless, restricting teambuilding in an extremely stupid way that creates a retarded metagame. Additionally, it makes stall teams unbreakable along certain cores and really reduces skill's importance.

    Quickban.


    FlareBlitz (open)

    Quickban

    Refer to my reasoning here. Get the whore out.


    kd24 (open)
    Well well well

    Chansey paired with Gligar is almost impossible to break and Chansey is such a great supporter to any team that as reach said it makes some Pokemon not worth using. Too many different ways to support the team via near full HP wishes, SR, Twave, and an actually good attack in Seismic Toss and Chansey is able to do all of this stuff easily in every game while completely shutting down the momentum of opposing teams with ease.

    QUICKBAN


    Jabba will edit his own vote/reasoning into this post later, RIGHT JABBA?

    I'll also be asking every one of them to write more elaborate explanations and such, as to satisfy all those who believe that tl;dr stuff is always better. I'll post those in the np thread at a later date.

    Anyway, with that, Chansey is now banned from UU. I'll talk to Zarel about removing it from the ladder ASAP. If you have any questions about when/how we might re-test Chansey, just shoot me a PM and I'll answer them.

    That is all.
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