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UU Suspect Discussion - Gothitelle

Discussion in 'BW UU' started by kokoloko, Aug 9, 2012.

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  1. Zarco


    Feb 22, 2011
    Ok, specs Gothitelle is broken IMO. It allows you a foolproof way to break through an offensive pokemon's select counters. Without their Hitmontop or Gligar, many teams struggle against Hera. Without Suicune, Milotic, or Slowbro, what can switch into CB Darmanitan? You have an almost risk-free way to secure a kill on a group of walls (or simply threaten it to scare them out of going into their walls. Under the support clause, this thing is easily broken. Moreso it makes stall and semi stall essentially unplayable because defensive cores can be broken down incredibly easily, which drives the metagame to highly offensive play and limits the diversity in Pokemon and play style that makes the UU tier what it is.
  2. Mazz

    Mazz a slightly grizzled veteran
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Contributor to Smogonis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnus

    Feb 4, 2011
    Your opinion doesn't exactly render a Pokemon broken [someone correct me if I'm wrong about that]. What makes a Pokemon broken is its negative effect on the metagame. Gothitelle, especially Choice Specs sets, is anything but broken.

    Most teams that struggle with Heracross are typically terrible teams. Think about it, its the new big threat in the tier. Every team should be capable of containing it, and should have a "plan b" in case their typical counter goes down. A lot of other scarfers outspeed and beat Heracross, and other Pokemon can tackle Heracross. Suicune and Milotic are both capable of phazing Gothitelle, as it cannot OHKO either of them with Thunderbolt [trust me, I've tried, and it doesn't work]. Both Suicune and Milotic also tend to carry a recovery move, which keeps the two healthy once Gothitelle is forced out. You act that if you face Gothitelle that you're not allowed to predict a switch to the trapper, which is far from the case. If you know it's coming and you do nothing about it, that's your fault. Phaze it on the switch or double switch.

    And that's Gothitelle's niche. And its anything but risk-free. Anybody can U-Turn with their Gligar while anticipating a Gothitelle switch-in, do about 30% damage, and bring out a Pursuit user or their Gothitelle check. Sleep Powder Roserade outspeed non-scarfed Gothitelle, neuter it, and beat it. Snorlax can beat it in most cases, as Psyshock isn't a guaranteed 2HKO [3HKO on Scarf sets]. Your statement leads me to believe that you'd you'd agree that Dugtrio is broken in OU because it can KO both Tyranitar and Ninetales, allowing you to win a weather war. Trappers are a component of the metagame, and you can't debunk a Pokemon because it can do its job. Looking at this from an earlier point in the UU tier, removing the opposing team's spinner and getting full hazards up on them had a very similar effect on the tier that Gothitelle did, except it took more than a couple of turns. The hazards hurt, crippled, and led to the elimination of walls that stopped sweepers such as Raikou, Kingdra, Heracross, or Dramanitan. Gothitelle is here to break walls and give those mentioned sweepers room to clean out the remainder of a team. I see no difference in the way the two work, except you save yourself a few turns.

    Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure the support clause hasn't been used since DPP when Latios and Salamence got banned or during BW's earlier days. If that's the case, then I'm assuming that its safe to say that there's a reason it isn't used. It's not effective in the modern metagame. It basically states that team support is bad and that it leaves too much room for sweepers to demolish stuff. Gothitelle is not affected by the support clause either, because it's not a sweeper and isn't the Pokemon winning the match, just opening holes for other members of the team to take advantage of [Again, correct me if I'm wrong]. In fact, the support clause isn't even mentioned on the Clauses and Banlists page on the site.

    That isn't entirely true. Gothitelle actually struggles to beat most defensive cores on Stall teams simply because it cannot heal itself. Because any decent Gothitelle is going to be choiced, it tends to be forced out because it needs to be using a different move to overcome its new opponent. This leaves room for hazards damage to take their toll. Toxic Spikes really hurt Gothitelle's ability to trap and beat defensive Pokemon in the game. Once a few layers of hazards are up, and the opponent cannot spin due to your spinblocker or lack of a spinner, then you've basically got Gothitelle beat. There's still a wide amount of defensive Pokemon that Gothitelle fails to beat too. Bronzong and Cofagrigus are good mentions because they work really well on a Stall team, and can beat Gothitelle [unless it runs HP Fire for Bronzong, which is dumb, and Shadow Ball for Cofagrigus, which isn't typically out of the ordinary]. Gothitelle does yes, make Semi-Stall virtually impossible to play, because it can remove or heavily damage two or three key members, leaving room for sweepers to prey on weakened walls. But hell, Semi-Stall isn't exactly the best playstyle as it is. Losing that doesn't exactly bother me, and it probably doesn't bother most other people who play Underused.

    I'm still yet to see something that really proclaims Gothitelle as broken. It doesn't beat teams on its own, and drops the need for entry hazards on offensively-based teams. There's a wide variety of Pursuit users in the tier, and dealing with Gothitelle shouldn't be as over-hyped as many people are making it. It's a wallbreaker that just happens to excel in this tier, not a sweeper that guarantees a win/loss if you use it/face it.
  3. pokeisfun

    pokeisfun formerly hilarious

    Jul 18, 2010
    I'm only going to respond to this part of your response right now Pokemazter because it seems so glaringly mistaken to me...

    First of all Gothitelle does not have to beat an entire defensive core it can simply take out a single sturdy wall that is used to counter something - taking out Gligar has been heavily cited as a good example. Clearly there are other things that can beat Gligar 100% of the time so the fact that Gothitelle beats Gligar isn't what makes it broken, its the fact that the Gligar user has about (and this is an estimate people but understand I have played literally hundreds of UU battles in the past two weeks because I a) no life and b) its fun) a 10-15% chance of holding Gligar. People argue and say "if you think you are going to get trapped, then just switch back out". This is putting a hugely unfair burden on the defensive player, consider for instance that Heracross was on the field right now. In order to not get Moxie crushed the defensive player must send out Gligar but the Heracross player can simply pivot to Gothitelle and bam, its practically gg. The defensive player has to guess if this is going to happen or not, if he is mistaken he loses the game if he is correct he has to guess again the next turn and in every other instance where Heracross comes in. On the other hand if the Gothitelle+Heracross user guesses incorrectly all that happens is he loses a turn, he has a very good chance of maintaining momentum and since Gothitelle can still be put in play he can still apply immense pressure to his opponent to bring out Gligar later and then trap it. This is why I estimate Gothitelle users can get rid of Gligar just about 90% of the time.

    No not any decent Gothitelle is going to be choiced, most will be but Sub CM has the luxury of setting up on many weak or resisted moves, especially on the special side and then guaranteeing almost for sure 2-3 kills if it can set up fully.

    People rarely use Toxic Spikes in any case and they are not such a powerful move with Roserade and Nidoking. However lets look at the users, they are not suprisingly Poison type and pure Gothitelle bait, if your opponent is setting up Toxic Spikes because they think they have a "free turn" you can go to Gothitelle and punish them.

    I wonder if you either use stall or Gothitelle because I am very familiar with both in the current game and I assure you setting up hazards is not going to stop Gothitelle from trapping and killing select Pokemon on your defensive team. Lets be generous and say you have managed to set up SR and a couple layers of Spikes with Toxic Spikes. Lets be even more generous and say you got to keep all your hazard setters somehow even though Claydol, Kabutops, Qwilfish, Roserade, Rhyperior, Gligar and Registeel can all be trapped and KO'd (crippled for Registeel) by Gothitelle. How have your hazards stopped Gothitelle? It will still happily GK Swampert and maul Snorlax and cripple Umbreon to pave the path onward for Raikou. It can still trap and kill practically all of the tanks it could before with simply Trick/Tbolt/Psyshock/GK. It can cripple Bronzong by the way and badly injure Cofagrigus.

    This is though beyond my point I want to make. If you don't think Gothitelle is broken because its too weak or too slow, that is fine by me because that is not wrong at all - by UU standards Gothitelle is really quite weak and slow (although bulky). It does however have such a powerful ability and a wide enough movepool that it can murder chunks of defensive cores and cause stall to meltdown.

    When UU banned sand just a month or two ago your main reasoning was not that sand is too powerful but sand limits diversity. I do think that Gothitelle is indeed too powerful anyways for reasons I have already listed but another reason to ban it is because it heavily limits diversity not in the case of forcing you to run Rhyperior/Bronzong/Stoutland counter or messing up all LO users like Sand did, but it makes stall crappy. Very crappy. Defensive teams rely on walls to counter threats and if you take away just one of those walls, it simply will not work. If you were actually serious when you all thought the single reason of "limiting diversity" was enough to ban something then you must recognize it here too. I truly cannot see any counter arguments to this except that "LOL STALL IS GHEY NOOB" which is not legitimate, I think. If you thought sand should have been banned because you really wanted to use that Life Orb Azelf but couldn't you now have an entire play style made extraordinarily less useful as opposed to an item slot.

    Flareblitz said Togekiss has been mauling stalling for the past forever but there is a difference, you can still use niche counters to Togekiss to make sure it won't beat your stall team such as Kabutops or Cryogonal. You do not have this luxury against Gothitelle which will almost definitely take down part of your core unless you have psychic prediction.

    Which brings me to another point on this topic, defensive teams are very passive which allows for Gothitelle to come in plenty and they have to set up passive damage to have a good chance of sucess. Gothitelle puts an unfair burden on passive players, you literally have no chance to set up hazards with your defenders if your opponent has Gothitelle in their wings because if they stay in you may get trapped and killed. The defensive player never had a chance after team preview. Any team that relies on passive Pokemon simply cannot rely on them.

    In essence Gothitelle's ability allows it to select most any wall to cripple or kill which is too powerful and it puts unfair pressure against defensive teams.
  4. JabbaTheGriffin

    JabbaTheGriffin Stormblessed
    is a Tutor Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Jan 21, 2007
    Gothitelle has been banned. I'm not in the best place to publicize paragraphs so me or koko will do that as soon as possible but it's important to release the decision because of the implications for grand slam.
  5. kokoloko

    kokoloko what matters is our plan!
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Champion

    Aug 21, 2009
    Here's the paragraphs:

    FlareBlitz; no ban (open)

    Ginku; no ban (open)

    kokoloko; ban (open)

    PK Gaming; ban (open)

    reachzero; ban (open)

    RT.; ban (open)

    Upstart; ban (open)

    Gothitelle is broken due to the uncompetitive nature of trapping abilities. Her mediocre stats and horrible typing just barely push Gothitelle and her ability over the edge. She has a relatively wide movepool allowing her to be tailored to taking out certain threats. She is able to 2hko defensive threats with specs or ohko offensive threats with scarf. Her ability to trap and KO these crucial threats provides tremendous support to many of UU’s powerhouse allowing them to sweep without anything stopping them. Additional support can be found by taking advantage of Gothitelle’s other support options such as Tickle, which ease set up once again allowing one pokemon to sweep through whole teams. Simply put the support that Gothitelle offers takes away a competitive aspect of pokemon, while at the same time she has the ability to guarantee death of at the very least one pokemon, allowing one pokemon to readily sweep. This level of support breaks Gothitelle.

    If you have anything to say about this, please do so in the new megathread.
  6. kokoloko

    kokoloko what matters is our plan!
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Champion

    Aug 21, 2009
    Upstart finally got around to sending me his paragraph, so I've added it to the post above.

    With that, the result can be finalized as 5 ban to 2 no ban for Gothitelle.
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