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UU Test

Discussion in 'Pokémon Policy' started by RBG, Nov 7, 2008.

  1. RBG

    RBG It feels like a perfect night to dress up like hipsters
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    So basically, many people have been asking about running the UU test concurrently with the OU suspects. Seeing how we got the new tier today, i thought this would be a good time to bring it up.

    Code:
    [20:53:47] <+RB-Golbat> so can we ever talk about the UU test?
    [20:55:53] <+Havak> Sure :)
    [20:56:30] <+Havak> I haven't played UU for too long now though, I was pretty big on it prior to the Smogon Tour and during it, but it'll have changed a lot now :(
    [20:57:42] <+RB-Golbat> i wish JUMPMAN16 were here, since it is in the OoO and he is in charge of that
    [20:57:59] * +Hazerider (letters@bl7-38-109.dsl.telepac.pt) Quit
    [20:58:39] <+Colonel_M> I think its something worthy of discussion sooner than the rest of the testing.
    [20:58:45] <+jumpluff> OoO?
    [20:58:55] <+RB-Golbat> Order of Operations
    [20:59:00] <+RB-Golbat> in the Policy Review
    [21:00:21] <+jumpluff> oh
    [21:02:04] <+Venom> im tutoring captkirby in uu
    [21:02:06] <+Venom> hard task
    [21:02:28] <+Venom> venusaur
    [21:02:30] <+Venom> is gay in UU
    [21:05:26] <+Colonel_M> I'm not a tutor.  ^_^
    [21:05:28] <+Havak> I do kind of agree with erm
    [21:05:33] <+Havak> Was it Obi or Mekkah?
    [21:05:41] <+Havak> Who said we should put basically all BLs in UU
    [21:05:46] <+Colonel_M> Obi I think.
    [21:05:46] <+Fishin> obi
    [21:05:51] <+RB-Golbat> all BLs and NFEs
    [21:05:52] <+Havak> I didn't at first, but now I'm kinding swinging towards it
    [21:05:54] <+Venom> [21:05:26] <+Colonel_M> I'm not a tutor.  ^_^
    [21:05:58] <+Venom> im not either
    [21:05:58] <+Venom> lol
    [21:06:06] <+Havak> kinda*
    [21:06:32] * Graviton (~David@71-218-36-223.hlrn.qwest.net) has joined #insidescoop
    [21:06:33] * ChanServ sets mode: +v Graviton
    [21:06:47] <+RB-Golbat> speak of the obi
    [21:06:53] <+Fishin> hehe
    [21:06:56] <+Havak> Speak of the devil!
    [21:07:19] <+Colonel_M> I
    [21:07:49] <+Venom> hello david
    [21:08:27] <+Graviton> Hi
    [21:10:19] <+Obi> Yeah don't expect me to really take charge of this, so if anyone else wants to head up something, you can do it.
    [21:10:31] <+Obi> I don't have as much time as I used to
    [21:12:25] <+jumpluff> o-o;;;
    [21:12:28] <+jumpluff> ?_________________?
    [21:14:22] <+RB-Golbat> i guess the point was not, should we do it
    [21:14:33] <+RB-Golbat> the point is, who gives the green light for it?
    [21:14:57] <+RB-Golbat> since many of us are in agreement that we should do it now
    [21:15:11] <+Obi> We should probably have one person organizing it
    [21:15:13] <+Obi> Or else it won't ever get done
    [21:15:29] <+RB-Golbat> someone who spends a lot of time in UU
    [21:17:37] <+Colonel_M> Hm
    [21:18:00] <+Venom> i agree
    [21:18:02] <+Colonel_M> A couple of people pop into my head although they don't play UU a lot anymore.
    [21:18:41] * +RB-Golbat goes to check the UU leaderboard
    [21:18:53] <+Havak> Obviously needs to be Cynthia ;) lol
    [21:19:00] <+Venom> I UU a lot
    [21:19:10] <+Venom> I don't really do leaderboards right now though
    [21:19:21] <+RB-Golbat> well, who would be candidates?
    [21:19:29] <+RB-Golbat> Cynthia, Venom
    [21:19:39] <+RB-Golbat> Jrrrrrr and EW are both on the leaderboard
    [21:19:55] <+Colonel_M> Well I guess the only thing is, I'd rather look into two things.
    [21:20:05] <+Colonel_M> One, people who are on the leaderboard are good candidates.
    [21:20:17] <+Colonel_M> Two, people who have played UU for a long time.
    [21:21:08] <+Venom> why on the leaderboard?
    [21:21:15] <+Havak> See who's more up for it out of Earthworm, Jrrrrrrr, and Venom
    [21:26:47] <+RB-Golbat> right?
    [21:26:48] <+Colonel_M> Actually... I'd like to hold off on NFEs
    [21:26:52] <+Colonel_M> IF possible.
    [21:27:07] <+Colonel_M> BLs I can agree on.
    [21:27:12] <+Havak> If we're moving ALL the BLs down
    [21:27:21] <+Havak> Then I say we just do it all in one swift move with NFE's too
    [21:27:31] <+Havak> Do it all at once
    [21:27:32] <+Venom> ^
    [21:27:45] <+Colonel_M> The problem, to me, is doing it all at once could cause issues.
    [21:27:55] <+Graviton> The whole point is that you start out assuming nothing
    [21:28:06] <+Graviton> Starting out with bans creates a baseline expectation for what UU "ought to be"
    [21:28:14] <+Havak> Yes
    [21:28:18] <+Colonel_M> Alright.
    [21:28:37] <+Colonel_M> I still think its not a very good idea, but I'll follow with it anyway.
    [21:28:57] <+Venom> http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1595347&postcount=478
    [21:28:58] <+Venom> lol
    [21:28:59] <+Havak> I'm also skeptical but I don't see any harm in just going through with it..
    [21:29:16] <+Colonel_M> The only harm that I can see with it: Chansey in general.
    [21:29:33] * +RB-Golbat (~RB-Golbat@pool-141-156-248-208.res.east.verizon.net) has left #insidescoop
    [21:29:37] <+Graviton> If Chansey is overpowering, it gets banned
    [21:29:40] <+Graviton> Just like any other Pokemon
    [21:29:42] <+Venom> yeah
    [21:29:50] <+Colonel_M> Yeah I guess
    [21:29:50] <+Havak> But the thing is
    [21:29:52] <+Graviton> I actually used Chansey in some UU / BL matches
    [21:29:55] <+Graviton> It's actually not that good
    [21:30:05] <+Colonel_M> The Special Attack is the biggest letdown I guess
    [21:30:06] <+Graviton> Clefable tends to be superior because Chansey's only offense is Seismic Toss
    [21:30:08] <+Graviton> (and Toxic)
    [21:30:09] <+Havak> I think we could end up creating a game, that thanks to all these BLs in the same place, is not broken lol
    [21:30:13] <+Graviton> Those really are your only options
    [21:30:17] * RB-Golbat (~RB-Golbat@pool-141-156-248-208.res.east.verizon.net) has joined #insidescoop
    [21:30:18] * ChanServ sets mode: +v RB-Golbat
    [21:30:20] <+Fishin> yeah
    [21:30:24] <+Graviton> It has pathetic Special Attack
    [21:30:30] <+RB-Golbat> yeah
    [21:30:30] <+Fishin> it does wall a whole lot of stuff extremely well, though
    [21:30:32] <+Graviton> SE Ice Beam does less to most things than Seismic Toss lol
    [21:30:35] <+Colonel_M> Well, I guess remembering her horrible Special Attack, it seems less threatening.
    [21:30:40] <+Fishin> 35 base sp atk whoo
    [21:30:41] <+RB-Golbat> but we will cross that boat when we get there
    [21:31:08] <+RB-Golbat> can someone copy this discussion and start a topic in IS with the conclusions we came to
    [21:31:30] <+RB-Golbat> cause i think the next step is deciding how pokemon will be moved back to BL
    
    Code:
    [11:57pm] jrrrr: ANYWAYS
    [11:57pm] jrrrr: uu
    [11:57pm] jrrrr: ?
    [11:57pm] Venom: cool tier
    [11:58pm] Colonel_M: Willing to help as stated.
    [11:58pm] jrrrr: when is this going to start
    [11:58pm] jumpluff: we need a leader
    [11:58pm] jrrrr: and do we need like "approval" from a jumpman or aeolus type figure
    [11:58pm] jumpluff: i guess
    [11:58pm] Venom: when you decide really
    [11:58pm] jumpluff: aeolus wanted to know about this did he not
    [11:58pm] jumpluff: for approval
    [11:58pm] Colonel_M: Probably.  And since you're the leader well...
    [11:58pm] jrrrr: i'm all for doing this asap
    [11:58pm] jumpluff: so who is the leader
    [11:58pm] jrrrr: and i would love to lead this
    [11:58pm] jumpluff: can we like get started please
    [11:58pm] Venom: jrrr
    [11:58pm] Venom: lol
    [11:58pm] jumpluff: nominating j7 for test cap'n
    [11:59pm] jrrrr: well assuming that someone higher up than me gives the ok
    [11:59pm] jumpluff: all in favour say aye
    [11:59pm] Venom: he is test capt already
    [11:59pm] jumpluff: oh
    [11:59pm] jumpluff: ok cool
    [11:59pm] RB-Golbat: we already decided that
    [11:59pm] RB-Golbat: gosh
    [11:59pm] jumpluff: ok just get aeos permission and LETS GO
    [11:59pm] jrrrr: i want to post an announcement, then start it like 2 days later or so
    [11:59pm] • RB-Golbat read IS will ya
    [11:59pm] jumpluff: stfu 
    [11:59pm] jumpluff: =[**
    [11:59pm] jrrrr: just so people can catch on
    [11:59pm] darkie: cap'n crrrrrrrunch
    [11:59pm] jumpluff: but i thought IS was just so topics could be closed so we could be redirected to #is ;_;
    [11:59pm] RB-Golbat: and of course on the fornt page
    [11:59pm] junior:                                                                                                                                     ?
    [11:59pm] jrrrr: lol
    [11:59pm] jrrrr: jewniur
    [12:00am] junior: its me hunior
    [12:00am] Havak: Well, I think we should just have a thread in Policy Review or Metagame Analysis to discuss what we're seeing while playing this new UU metagame, once there's a ladder to play it on of course.
    [12:00am] darkie: foolnior
    [12:00am] Colonel_M: Agreeing.
    [12:00am] Venom: dumbkie
    [12:00am] Havak: Which should last about a month, IMO
    [12:00am] jrrrr: Eh, I did forget about Rhyperior but they both def fall under "obviously broken in UU". That's why I think a month for the first round is a bit much
    [12:00am] Havak: At first
    [12:00am] Colonel_M: Not sure j7r.
    [12:00am] jrrrr: i think 10 days after the beginning should be enough
    [12:00am] Colonel_M: We actually discussed this a little more.
    [12:00am] jrrrr: but we need everybody to be on the same page
    [12:00am] jumpluff: there are always going to be 'obviously broken' tiers but nonetheless they should be tested for like ten days yeah
    [12:01am] jrrrr: i dont want to play with Rhyperior in UU for a whole month
    [12:01am] Colonel_M: 2 weeks tops should suffice.
    [12:01am] ryubahamut joined the chat room.
    [12:01am] jumpluff: so who is testing them officially
    [12:01am] jumpluff: hey ryu
    [12:01am] jumpluff:
    [12:01am] junior: rayu
    [12:01am] jumpluff: like
    [12:01am] ryubahamut was granted voice by ChanServ.
    [12:01am] junior: xD;
    [12:01am] junior: my frend hello
    [12:01am] RB-Golbat: everyone would be testing
    [12:01am] jumpluff: is it just PR people contributing
    [12:01am] jumpluff: or
    [12:01am] Fishin: ruyu
    [12:01am] jumpluff: do we vote
    [12:01am] ryubahamut: hi humpluff, junior!
    [12:01am] Colonel_M: The community.
    [12:01am] jumpluff: do people suspect vote
    [12:01am] ryubahamut: and fishin
    [12:01am] ryubahamut: !
    [12:01am] RB-Golbat: but only a select few will decide what moves to BL
    [12:01am] jrrrr: we need to iron out all of the framework
    [12:01am] jrrrr: i personally think that a committee of 5 people should be enough
    [12:01am] RB-Golbat: we will also need to save this log
    [12:02am] jrrrr: with a simple majority vote
    [12:02am] Venom: hello ryu
    [12:02am] Havak: I really don't like 10 days is long enough to let something develop and let us decide what is broken
    [12:02am] RB-Golbat: 2-3 weeks would be good
    [12:02am] jrrrr: but, i think we need to swap those people out every two votes or so
    [12:02am] ryubahamut: hello Venom
    [12:02am] RB-Golbat: inho
    [12:02am] jrrrr: to keep it fair
    [12:02am] jumpluff: rbg for 'obviously broken'
    [12:02am] jumpluff: _e
    [12:02am] jumpluff: e_e*
    [12:02am] RB-Golbat: i think 2 weeks for the first go throuhg
    [12:02am] Colonel_M: Calm Mind is more borken.
    [12:02am] jrrrr: i think that the first round should be 10 days, then every subsequent rounds of additions/bannings would take 3 weeks
    [12:02am] jumpluff: are the test cocurrent
    [12:02am] jumpluff: concurrent
    [12:02am] Colonel_M: Just asking: why 10 days?
    [12:02am] RB-Golbat: jrrr finsihed my sentance
    [12:03am] jrrrr: because more than 10 days with alakazam and rhyperior in UU isnt going to be very fun
    [12:03am] jrrrr: i dont think anyone would disagree that there are quite a few obviously BLs
    [12:03am] jrrrr: we're just testing them to make sure
    [12:03am] RB-Golbat: zam is ou
    [12:03am] Venom: yeah
    [12:03am] RB-Golbat: i thought
    [12:03am] Havak: There's probably enough to stop them within the current BL though 
    [12:03am] jrrrr: and to maintain the credibility of the test
    [12:03am] Venom: he is putting it as an example
    [12:03am] RB-Golbat: but 2 weeks should be nice
    [12:03am] jrrrr: ok when i say things like zam and rhydon i mean things that are clearly broken
    [12:03am] jrrrr: lol
    [12:03am] RB-Golbat: since there is a small chance balance might happen
    [12:04am] Colonel_M: Well we won't exactly know that until we actually try it I guess.
    [12:04am] Havak: Yeh lol
    [12:04am] Havak: Yeh, which is why a little longer than 10 days would probably be better suited IMO lol
    [12:04am] RB-Golbat: honestly, i still think even 2 weeks might be a little short
    [12:04am] jrrrr: eh, for the second rounds and after
    [12:04am] jrrrr: i wouldnt oppose
    [12:04am] jumpluff: the first rounds i agree with j7
    [12:04am] jrrrr: but i think we'll lose a lot of people if we just make the UU ladder into the BL ladder for a whole month
    [12:04am] jumpluff: but three weeks to ban things that are ridiculously broken just seems OTT
    [12:05am] jumpluff: although i think we should be conservative w/ our definition of that e_e
    [12:05am] Colonel_M: 2 weeks is fine to me I guess but 10 days will suffice.
    [12:05am] RB-Golbat: how do we know they are rediulosulty broken?
    [12:05am] jrrrr: 2 weeks is fine too
    [12:05am] Colonel_M: I just don't want to theorymon it all.
    [12:05am] jumpluff: ok point RBG
    [12:05am] jrrrr: 10 days was just what i initially though
    [12:05am] jrrrr: t
    [12:05am] jumpluff: but three weeks for stuff like
    [12:05am] RB-Golbat: Rhyperior could be countered by Slowbro and Tangrowth
    [12:05am] jrrrr: 2 weeks is a more round number i guess
    [12:05am] Colonel_M: And Shaymin.
    [12:05am] jumpluff: bleh i haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaate the 'arbitrariness' of this
    [12:05am] RB-Golbat: and Ludicolo
    [12:05am] jrrrr: sub rhyperior beats them both with megahorn
    [12:05am] jrrrr: lol
    [12:05am] Colonel_M: Well, barring the boosted Megahorn as discussed.
    [12:05am] jumpluff: [of my argument]
    [12:05am] jumpluff: orz
    [12:06am] jumpluff: hm
    [12:06am] jrrrr: rhyperior doesnt have any counters in uu
    [12:06am] Fishin: enough with orz >_>
    [12:06am] jumpluff: maybe two weeks everything gets tested then the
    [12:06am] Colonel_M: Meh Substitute / Swords Dance / Stone Edge / Earthquake is still effective.
    [12:06am] jrrrr: claydol
    [12:06am] jumpluff: stuff that is seen to be broken immediately
    [12:06am] Havak: Rhyperior doesn't really have any "counters" though
    [12:06am] jumpluff: gets moved and the rest is re-tested
    [12:06am] Colonel_M: Ph, Claydol.
    [12:06am] jrrrr: no sand in uu either, so rhyperior is much worse
    [12:06am] Havak: That's not going to matter
    [12:06am] jrrrr: rhyperior in sand is quite the beast
    [12:06am] Colonel_M: That's the main point here.  Without sandstorm, Rhyperior loses some key defense points.
    [12:06am] RB-Golbat: but how often will there be sand?
    [12:06am] jrrrr: just spdef
    [12:06am] Venom: there isnt sand
    [12:06am] jrrrr: every tier except ubers is physical-based
    [12:06am] Venom: unless you start it
    [12:07am] Havak: Depends how many people resort to using Hippopotas haha
    [12:07am] ryubahamut: uh guys
    [12:07am] Colonel_M: I'd do it lol.
    [12:07am] RB-Golbat: im not gonna use a hippoptas just for my Rhyperior
    [12:07am] ryubahamut: why's /tournaments/frontier/ subcatagorized under archives?
    [12:07am] jumpluff: no idea
    [12:07am] jumpluff: also my edit was cached and it still has not changed
    [12:07am] jumpluff:
    [12:07am] Colonel_M: What will be interesting: Snover and Walrien (or could be)
    [12:07am] Havak: Yeh
    [12:07am] ryubahamut: for some reason, yeah
    [12:07am] Havak: Arcanine on a Hail team maybe.. or still Ninetales
    [12:07am] jrrrr: snover and hippo are two of the obviously broken uuers
    [12:07am] ryubahamut: also guys who are making pages for the site
    [12:08am] ryubahamut: DON'T use <center>, use <p align="center"> instead !_!
    [12:08am] jumpluff: i removed <center> from the /frontier/ anyway
    [12:08am] Colonel_M: I'm curious: what makes weather so "broken" in UU?  Really.
    [12:08am] jumpluff: rain dance
    [12:08am] jumpluff: most of the strongest stuff
    [12:08am] Colonel_M: I mean auto-weather in general.
    [12:08am] jumpluff: is really, really powerful and fast in rain
    [12:08am] RB-Golbat: im not certain they will be that broken
    [12:08am] jumpluff: oh
    [12:08am] jumpluff: i don't think that will be broken
    [12:08am] Havak: Exactly
    [12:08am] Havak: Which is why they will be tested lol
    [12:08am] jumpluff: i think it will help alleviate the rain problem that IS in uu
    [12:08am] jrrrr: there arent many steel types in UU
    [12:09am] jrrrr: not much resists ice
    [12:09am] jrrrr: and a lot is actually weak to it
    [12:09am] RB-Golbat: Ice!
    [12:09am] jrrrr: with stab 100% acc blizzards floating around
    [12:09am] jumpluff: the only thing that pisses me off is going to be
    [12:09am] jumpluff: fucking
    [12:09am] jumpluff: froslass
    [12:09am] jumpluff: =[
    [12:09am] jumpluff: in the hail
    [12:09am] Venom: I feel Rain Dance is like fucking
    [12:09am] Colonel_M: Walrien.
    [12:09am] jumpluff: with snow cloak and blizz
    [12:09am] Venom: broken in UU
    [12:09am] jumpluff: ._______________________________________.
    [12:09am] jumpluff: it is venom imo
    [12:09am] RB-Golbat: well, we aren't supposed to be theroymonning
    [12:09am] jumpluff: but
    [12:09am] jumpluff: it still needs to be tested
    [12:09am] Havak: Well
    [12:09am] RB-Golbat: we are supposed to be ironing out the kinks in our system
    [12:09am] Colonel_M: I guess testing is all we can really do.
    [12:09am] jrrrr: sand is only an issue because of shit like rhyperior which would be easily capable of taking out 3-4 pokemon per match with that spdef boost
    [12:10am] Havak: I still think Scarf Medicham could be a bit ridiculous lol
    [12:10am] RB-Golbat: and Auto-Weather is an important one
    [12:10am] RB-Golbat: but we should wait till some testing
    [12:10am] jrrrr: yes medicham will be seeing the banhammer after two weeks, obviously
    [12:10am] jrrrr: yeah i know rbg
    [12:10am] RB-Golbat: well havak, you can have fun with your scarfcham all you want
    [12:10am] jumpluff: haha
    [12:10am] jumpluff: can't wait to ladder
    [12:10am] Colonel_M: Rampardos could be something that is troublesome I guess, maybe not very broken.
    [12:10am] jumpluff: this is gonna be fucking anarchy
    [12:10am] jumpluff:
    [12:10am] jumpluff: rampardos is easy to take out
    [12:10am] Havak: I know I'll have fun with it for a while lol
    [12:10am] jumpluff: unless it has a sub passed
    [12:10am] jrrrr: i think relicanth is better than rampardos
    [12:10am] Colonel_M: Wait a minute... isn't Slaking BL!?!
    [12:10am] Venom: just because something has a big attack base
    [12:10am] jumpluff: agreed
    [12:10am] jumpluff: yes CM
    [12:10am] RB-Golbat: yesh
    [12:10am] Venom: does not mean its broken
    [12:10am] jumpluff: and it's also a cunt to use
    [12:11am] RB-Golbat: as is regigigas
    [12:11am] Venom: or hard to take down
    [12:11am] Venom: lol
    [12:11am] jumpluff: but people will try
    [12:11am] jrrrr: fighting is one of the better types in uu
    [12:11am] jumpluff: and it will prob be banned
    [12:11am] Venom: yeah
    [12:11am] Venom: Hitmonlee
    [12:11am] RB-Golbat: you mean old UU
    [12:11am] jumpluff: fighting is one of the better types overall but in uu particularly
    [12:11am] Venom: my fav UU
    [12:11am] RB-Golbat: this is new UU
    [12:11am] jrrrr: right
    [12:11am] Colonel_M: Marowak in UU is interesting though.  Might see the banhammer too I guess.
    [12:11am] jumpluff: i'm gonna do a bpass team
    [12:11am] RB-Golbat: main problem i see hear
    [12:11am] Colonel_M: Especially paired with SubSalac + Belly Drum Smeargle.
    [12:11am] jumpluff: we'll have smeargle
    [12:11am] jumpluff:
    [12:11am] jrrrr: so basically once aeolus/jump etc give the go ahead
    [12:11am] jrrrr: i'll start laying it out
    [12:11am] RB-Golbat: we are theorymoning all BLs out of UU
    [12:11am] jrrrr: i'll post in IS so everyone knows whats up
    [12:11am] Venom: allright
    [12:11am] jrrrr: then it can start
    [12:12am] RB-Golbat: leaving is with the flawed UU we have
    [12:12am] Venom: happy to know you're in charge j7r
    [12:12am] jumpluff: productive j7
    [12:12am] jumpluff:
    [12:12am] Colonel_M: Silly Venom, you can still help.
    [12:12am] RB-Golbat: our trust was placed rightly
    [12:12am] jumpluff: aaaaaaaaaaaaaaa im hungry
    [12:12am] jrrrr: ya trick ya
    [12:12am] Venom: I know
    [12:12am] Venom: lol
    [12:12am] RB-Golbat: ya ya  trick
    [12:12am] jumpluff: pokémon talk is stressful
    [12:12am] jumpluff: and i require motivation
    [12:12am] ryubahamut: ??
    [12:12am] jumpluff: ya trick ya is the motto of the meta at the moment lol
    [12:12am] Colonel_M: Caffine?
    [12:12am] jumpluff: er
    [12:12am] jumpluff: not motivastion
    [12:12am] jumpluff: nourishment
    [12:12am] jumpluff: no
    [12:12am] jumpluff: food
    [12:12am] jumpluff: =[
    [12:13am] jrrrr: trick sucks
    [12:13am] jrrrr: especially
    [12:13am] jrrrr: since
    [12:13am] RB-Golbat: GET OUT OF MY FACE
    [12:13am] jrrrr: for some reason people usually trick CHOICE SCARFS
    [12:13am] jrrrr: of all things...
    [12:13am] Havak: I think
    [12:13am] Colonel_M: Lol.
    [12:13am] jrrrr: scarf is like the most gamebreaking item in d/p
    [12:13am] Colonel_M: Trick Iron Ball and you'll win at everything forever.
    [12:13am] Venom: somebody tricked a scarf to my clefable
    [12:13am] jrrrr: why you would want your opponent to have one is beyond me
    [12:13am] Venom: and i ended up killing rotom with ice beam
    [12:13am] Venom: and won
    [12:13am] jrrrr: iron ball is not implemented in shoddy iirc
    [12:14am] Colonel_M: It should be though.
    [12:14am] Havak: I'll be Baton Passing Belly Drum from Smeargle to my Azumarill / Rock Polish Rhyperior in UU
    [12:14am] Havak: That should be fun, I hope
    [12:14am] RB-Golbat: talk to doug when he finishes his project
    [12:14am] jrrrr: ok im heading out
    [12:14am] Venom: later
    [12:14am] Colonel_M: Azumarill, Marowak, Medicham, and Rhyperior could be nasty recipients of Baton Pass.
    [12:14am] jrrrr: keep me updated in that is thread
    
    Summary:
    What was agreed on
    1) All NFEs and BLs currently should be moved to UU for the test
    2) Jrrrrrr has no problem running this. We are just waiting on approval from Jumpman or Aeolus.

    What still needs to be decided:
    1) How are Alt-Rotoms tiered?
    2) How are pokemon moved back to BL and how often will this happen?
  2. jrrrrrrr

    jrrrrrrr wubwubwub
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    I would love to lead something like this. Obviously I would need help from all of you and the participants in the test, but I would be all for spearheading this project.

    Now that we have an OU list, I'm under the assumption that all NFE pokemon that aren't OU or Uber (I believe Wynaut is the only one) and all BL pokemon would be moved into UU. Basically, there would be three tiers:

    1) Ubers - same as it is now
    2) OU - same as it is now
    3) UU - everything else

    Now, how long should we wait until we start the first round of bannings into BL? I say two weeks would be enough, since there are quite a few things that would obviously be broken. Snover, Hippopotas, Rhydon, Alakazam, Chansey, Slowbro, etc all come to mind as BLs (or at least former BLs) that would clearly break the metagame. Then, maybe three weeks at a time we would update the BL list. Maybe by a simple bold-vote nomination thread by people who qualify ala the Garchomp votes, or maybe we could elect a council of people to decide these (and have them swapped out every so often)?

    I personally think we're going to end up in a situation where we need more than just 5 tiers because of sheer volume, but we'll cross that bridge later.

    Oh and I think alt-Rotoms are their own individual pokemon as far as tiering goes.

    and I had a much different experience with Chansey in UU than Obi did =\
  3. Colonel M

    Colonel M I don't suck it's my team that sucks!
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    Hey, j7r. Rhyperior IS BL you know? But otherwise agreeing how the testing should work out. I'm willing to refresh myself in UU to help test these as well.
  4. Havak

    Havak I'm the Best. You're a Towel.
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    Lol Jrrrrrrr you mention Rhydon, yet Rhyperior is probably the most controversial thing getting placed in there xD

    I don't know what to do with the Rotom formes, but at the moment I'm edging towards placing them where ever they are on the latest statistics.

    I think we should probably allow a slight metagame to develop in UU more, so I'd suggest at least a month of play before we think about banning anything.
  5. RBG

    RBG It feels like a perfect night to dress up like hipsters
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    Personally, i think the Rotoms should be all together, so none of the should be moved to UU.

    That being said, I think 3 weeks for each test is still what we need, since there is the possibility that many of the current BLs will Balance each other out. How we decide what to bump is something I am still thinking of, but I like Jrrrrrr's idea about a rotating council.
  6. Caelum

    Caelum qibz official stalker
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    err, I don't even understand what a leader is needed for. It's pretty obvious what is supposed to be done. Whatever.

    Democratic process should be the route the to go. Smogon already set the voting precedent with the uber voting, it would be horrible from a "pr" perspective to elect an elite council of people to decide on this when voting has already been established for most tiering issues.

    I thought the point of the BL testing was to NOT make assumptions like these. If you end up being the leader j7r, please avoid saying this type of stuff in the public forums.

    Also, 2 weeks? Let's examine the first two weeks of Platinum, compared to now. 2 weeks is not long enough to determine anything. 2 weeks is just the amount of time where the tier starts to settle down and begin to develop. 1 month minimum, I'd advocate 6 weeks for the first test. Then 4 weeks after that. Initially, 2 weeks for the tier to settle down, and then a month of testing in this settled down metagame is my logic for 6 weeks.
  7. jrrrrrrr

    jrrrrrrr wubwubwub
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    Well, we could still support the peoples opinions and maintain some sort of administrative consistency...Maybe if we had 3 voters that we elect in TPR or IS and then we have a public vote, like the garchomp one but probably with lower requirements, that accounts for one vote for every 25% of people vote for a certain decision, that way a 75% popular vote would be able to tie the rotating council's vote and cause no change.

    I just thought that up off the top of my head, lol, i hope its a great idea !_____)

    Since I dont want to double post, I just want to say that I think a two week test on the first round is enough time. There are going to be obviously broken things like Rhyperior etc, but I think that we'll lose people if we make the UU ladder this screwed up for too long. Two weeks should be more than enough to make an accurate decision on the first round of things, maybe we should just put a limit on the amount of pokemon that can be banned or removed at any given time? After the first round, I think we should hold votes every 3 weeks or one month after to continue the process, after the initial obvious ones are cleared out.
  8. Caelum

    Caelum qibz official stalker
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    well, granted no admin has okayed this so we might be getting a bit ahead of ourselves.

    Good luck explaining the council idea to people, seems a bit complicated, but it's fine.

    Why is anything going to be "obviously broken"? What if the metagame is perfectly fine? I'm not convinced Rhyperior would be broken at all without Sandstream with that crap special defense and horrible typing btw.

    Also, setting a number for how many things to ban at one time is overly restrictive. Decide that when the time comes, there is no point in setting a number for something like that now.

    I still maintain 2 weeks is too short. If everyone disagrees with me, that's fine, I just won't participate in the process. Even though I want 6 weeks for the first test, I'll settle for a 4 week test and then 2-3 weeks for the succeeding tests.
  9. ODDish

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    I'm happy to see something finally starting to happen ... maybe I'll start playing "UU" again.
  10. RBG

    RBG It feels like a perfect night to dress up like hipsters
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    I really am agreeing with Caelum on this. Any claims that something is "Obviously Broken" is BS and 100% Theorymon. The whole point of the test is to start with a clean slate, which we can't do if we are saying things will be obviously broken. Caelum's comparison the Platinum metagame is exactly hat desribes what type of metagame we will have for the two weeks. People will be experementing and we need time for that metgame to settle down before we do our first set of bannings.
  11. X-Act

    X-Act np: Biffy Clyro - Shock Shock
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    I'm wondering why Wynaut is uber. Is it really that good? I'm sure it isn't used in OU because it sucks, not because it's banned.

    About the Rotom-Appliances, they're OU as far as I'm concerned. The only reason why I put only Rotom-H and Rotom-W in OU is because species clause wasn't implemented in the server yet. However, if those two are OU, the other Rotom appliances would be at least BL immediately.

    In the case of the original little Rotom, I say to test it with the other non-uber, non-OU Pokemon.
  12. Colonel M

    Colonel M I don't suck it's my team that sucks!
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    Couldn't we make it like a suspect ladder in this case? It could prevent the bickering of such things and perhaps allow us more time for testing. I mean, even I thought the Deoxys-S voting was rushed (it was roughly 3 weeks after Platinum changes were released IIRC).
  13. gorm

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    Using usage statistics as a basis for ban discussion seems like a good place to start, like taking the top 10/month and discussing their checks/possible overcentralization of our new metagame. Granted 10 is more arbitrary than were looking for so maybe top 10~25%... but yeah let's not get ahead of ourselves.


    above all i think we need to have an image of the tier we're creating in order to have a somewhat efficient process in forming it.

    x-act you're the main numbers man, what kind of size do you think we could expect for a "balanced" uu metagame? there are approximately 400 pokemon left to tier so i have no idea what we're shooting for. probably the next 95% used, or something of the sort. the cutoff points should be modeled of our current OU paradigms since they seem to work pretty great although i have no idea what they are x__x


    i think it should also be noted that the raw work associated with this process is alot to ask for from doug who just got finished recoding the userlist and prolly has his hands full with new cap process changes (^_^). Of course it's never a bad idea to get our framework laid out for now.
  14. Caelum

    Caelum qibz official stalker
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    lol gorm. I don't think any of us are expecting Doug to do this ASAP. Doug is arguably Smogons most important, busy, and under appreciated member. Doug will get this done when he has time and I, nor anyone else, should expect otherwise.

    Anyway, here is my layout for this should run. And it's going to be in steps because that's how I do things.

    1- Announce that this is finally getting underway in a sticky in Stark.

    2- 6 Weeks of testing for first test (read my reasoning above)

    3- A few badge holders / responsible members (possibly PR) get together and ask ourselves is this metagame "broken" after the time period (possibly 4 weeks in)? If yes, we proceed with a discussion amongst ourselves to determine what exactly are the problems with the tier. Each of the "leaders" will determine what we believe are problems with the current UU tier. Once a certain number of "problem" Pokemon have been identified a topic in Stark should be created by one of us. The topic should include in the OP each of our arguments for what we feel is broken to set a good baseline for the discussion. From there, users can go back forth on what we have purposed in intelligent discussion. I also think a bold voting thread could work in place of "badged users" or PR as well. I'm fine with either option though.

    4- Once the topic has been discussed for approximately 2 weeks, the ratings would be reset with these suspects out of it and vote on it much like we do in the other processes. Hopefully a month of testing will proceed

    From there the process will repeat until nothing is banned as a result of the test.

    5- Once a "settled" UU metagame has been established the leaders of this project should go back and reexamine what exactly was banned and if any of the banned Pokes deserved to be reexamined. For example, let's say Ambipom was banned by a small margin vote. The leaders of the topic feel Ambipom is worthy of reconsideration. Ambipom would then be reintroduced to the tier and the process would repeat.

    This process will take several months but hopefully at the end a good UU / BL tier will be developed. And also, the tier isn't going to be in chaos during this time. As the process continues the tier will become more and more settled so it will be playable in mean time so it's not like UU is going to be "ruined" during the majority of this time period anyway.

    Opinions on my lay out ?

    Edit: For NFEs can we drop Wynaut from the uber tier ? Wynaut is pretty bad and I wouldn't even consider using it in UU. I doubt it would be much of a threat there. Basically, I'm agreeing with X-Act.
  15. RBG

    RBG It feels like a perfect night to dress up like hipsters
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    Caelum, that is exactly the process we need. I'm firmly agreeing with you about the 6 weeks for the first test. and 4 week for each test after that.
  16. DougJustDoug

    DougJustDoug Knows the great enthusiasms
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    Reconfiguring tiers is pretty easy. If someone can come up with the proper ban list for UU, then it's not too hard to get it implemented.

    Here is the current ladder definition for UU. Remember that Shoddy defines tiers by what is NOT INCLUDED. Unlike Smogon, where we generally discuss tiers in terms of what is included. This is the list of pokemon that are banned from UU play:

    Code:
    LADDER: Underused
    Arceus
    Darkrai
    Deoxys
    Deoxys-e
    Deoxys-f
    Deoxys-l
    Dialga
    Giratina
    Giratina-o
    Groudon
    Ho-oh
    Kyogre
    Latias
    Latios
    Lugia
    Manaphy
    Mew
    Mewtwo
    Palkia
    Rayquaza
    Wobbuffet
    Aerodactyl
    Azelf
    Blissey
    Breloom
    Bronzong
    Celebi
    Cresselia
    Dragonite
    Dugtrio
    Dusknoir
    Electivire
    Forretress
    Gallade
    Garchomp
    Gengar
    Gliscor
    Gyarados
    Heatran
    Heracross
    Hippowdon
    Infernape
    Jirachi
    Jolteon
    Lucario
    Machamp
    Magnezone
    Mamoswine
    Metagross
    Milotic
    Roserade
    Salamence
    Scizor
    Skarmory
    Snorlax
    Spiritomb
    Starmie
    Suicune
    Swampert
    Tentacruel
    Togekiss
    Tyranitar
    Vaporeon
    Weavile
    Yanmega
    Zapdos
    Abomasnow
    Alakazam
    Ambipom
    Arcanine
    Azumarill
    Blaziken
    Charizard
    Crobat
    Donphan
    Empoleon
    Entei
    Espeon
    Exeggutor
    Feraligatr
    Floatzel
    Flygon
    Gardevoir
    Hariyama
    Honchkrow
    Houndoom
    Kingdra
    Lickilicky
    Ludicolo
    Magmortar
    Marowak
    Medicham
    Mesprit
    Mismagius
    Moltres
    Ninjask
    Pinsir
    Porygonz
    Porygon2
    Raikou
    Rampardos
    Regice
    Regigigas
    Regirock
    Registeel
    Rhyperior
    Sceptile
    Shaymin
    Shaymin-s
    Slaking
    Slowbro
    Slowking
    Smeargle
    Staraptor
    Tangrowth
    Tauros
    Torterra
    Typhlosion
    Umbreon
    Ursaring
    Uxie
    Zangoose
    Abra
    Aipom
    Azurill
    Bagon
    Bayleef
    Beldum
    Bronzor
    Budew
    Buizel
    Bulbasaur
    Chansey
    Charmander
    Charmeleon
    Chikorita
    Chimchar
    Combusken
    Cranidos
    Croconaw
    Cubone
    Cyndaquil
    Diglett
    Dragonair
    Dratini
    Dusclops
    Duskull
    Eevee
    Electabuzz
    Elekid
    Exeggcute
    Feebas
    Gabite
    Gastly
    Gible
    Gligar
    Golbat
    Grotle
    Grovyle
    Growlithe
    Happiny
    Haunter
    Hippopotas
    Horsea
    Houndour
    Ivysaur
    Kadabra
    Kirlia
    Larvitar
    Lickitung
    Lombre
    Lotad
    Machoke
    Machop
    Magby
    Magikarp
    Magmar
    Magnemite
    Magneton
    Makuhita
    Marill
    Marshtomp
    Meditite
    Metang
    Misdreavus
    Monferno
    Mudkip
    Munchlax
    Murkrow
    Phanpy
    Piloswine
    Piplup
    Porygon
    Prinplup
    Pupitar
    Quilava
    Ralts
    Rhydon
    Rhyhorn
    Riolu
    Roselia
    Rotom-s
    Rotom-w
    Rotom-h
    Rotom-f
    Rotom-c
    Seadra
    Shelgon
    Shroomish
    Slakoth
    Slowpoke
    Sneasel
    Snover
    Squirtle
    Staravia
    Starly
    Staryu
    Swinub
    Tangela
    Teddiursa
    Tentacool
    Togepi
    Togetic
    Torchic
    Totodile
    Treecko
    Turtwig
    Vibrava
    Wartortle
    Wynaut
    Yanma
    If this list was updated -- no typos, and use Shoddy species names -- then I can do this without much trouble.

    Someone really needs to get the admins involved. Last time I jacked with the UU list because "it had been decided" -- it led to some controversy as to who made the decision and whether it was the right decision. Just get your ducks in a row before you ask me to pull the trigger on coding changes.

    Make that Golducks, since they are UU...
  17. RBG

    RBG It feels like a perfect night to dress up like hipsters
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    Code:
    LADDER: Underused
    Arceus
    Darkrai
    Deoxys
    Deoxys-e
    Deoxys-f
    Deoxys-l
    Dialga
    Giratina
    Giratina-o
    Groudon
    Ho-oh
    Kyogre
    Latias
    Latios
    Lugia
    Manaphy
    Mew
    Mewtwo
    Palkia
    Rayquaza
    Wobbuffet
    Aerodactyl
    Alakazam
    Azelf
    Blissey
    Breloom
    Bronzong
    Celebi
    Cresselia
    Donphan
    Dragonite
    Dugtrio
    Dusknoir
    Electivire
    Forretress
    Gallade
    Garchomp
    Gengar
    Gliscor
    Gyarados
    Heatran
    Heracross
    Hippowdon
    Infernape
    Jirachi
    Jolteon
    Kingdra
    Lucario
    Machamp
    Magnezone
    Mamoswine
    Metagross
    Ninjask
    Poygonz
    Rotom-c
    Rotom-h
    Rotom-s
    Rotom-w
    Rotom-f
    Salamence
    Scizor
    Shaymin-s
    Skarmory
    Snorlax
    Starmie
    Suicune
    Swampert
    Tentacruel
    Togekiss
    Tyranitar
    Vaporeon
    Weavile
    Yanmega
    Zapdos
    
    This list contains

    1) All Ubers
    2) All OU
    3) NO NFEs
    4) All Alt Rotoms

    Did I miss anything?

    Thats why i said we need Aeolus or Jumpmans approval.
  18. Havak

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    I pretty much agree with Caelum there.

    First Round of testing should last roughly six weeks IMO, as we can hopefully get Doug to change the ban list for UU by the upcoming weekend (15-16th Nov). This will allow for roughly two weeks of stats, followed by a solid four weeks of stats. The metagame will have quite a while to develop, and while this is happening a thread in Policy Review should be made to allow for discussion.

    Then, the regular Bold Voting topics should be made once we have a list of determined suspects. (As Caelum suggested).

    Rotom Formes should all be treated as OU for this test IMO, bar the original Rotom which should definately stay UU.

    Wynaut should also be thrown into the mix, it can easily be banned again if we determine it to be "broken" enough. The ability is highly annoying, but it definately can't do it as well as Wobbuffet. So I say we test it.

    If there is a dispute between allowing Wynaut / not allowing Rotom Formes, then there should be a simple Voting thread in Policy Review to decide what we do with them.

    So, just to recap:

    1. News Article on-site, short explination and link to a thread~
    2. The thread will be announcing the changes to UU in Stark, for information purposes. People are bound to discuss loads of crap there, but I think we should ignore the majority of Theorymon discussion that will happen. The thread will be there just to tell people it's happening.
    3. If Doug has the time, changes will have happened within a week of me writing this, and we play our new UU Tier.
    4. We have a Discussion thread lead by Jrrrrrrr in Policy Review for us to discuss what's happening.
    4.5. A similar thread could also be posted in Metagame Analysis, but this might not be necessary.
    5. Basically follow Caelum's plan, rinse and repeat for suspects and sort out this tier.

    Also, we need an Admins approval before we start anything.
  19. Havak

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    Just a thought.

    I'd like everyone to go into this completely ignoring any prior UU experience really.
  20. Caelum

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    Trust me Havak, that'll be a non-issue. Almost all of the old UU players that just want to make the old UU are not going to have the dedication to play in this environment. I know this because they have basically stated it several times. Plus, there will be enough sincere players I think to prevent that problem anyway.
  21. Great Sage

    Great Sage

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    Here's something to consider: do we want to shoot for around the size of BL now, which is about 50 Pokemon, even though the metagame might balance itself out after only a few bans? If we decide to stop when we believe the metagame is balanced, regardless of the size of the BL list (the option I believe should happen), then we might need to get into a discussion about adding a new tier.
  22. RBG

    RBG It feels like a perfect night to dress up like hipsters
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    I think that we should not have a size to shoot for when mkaing BL, just whatever it takes to balance it out.

    And in which case, i would support making more tiers
  23. Havak

    Havak I'm the Best. You're a Towel.
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    It's possible, Sage.

    I was probably going to hope to shoot for around 20-25 in BL (Roughly the same as Uber), but we'd really need to come to a decision on this. Though honestly, BL should just be as big as it needs to be as one Tier I think.

    Edit: Yes, basically what RB Golbat said.
  24. david stone

    david stone Fast-moving, smart, sexy and alarming.
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    BL should have exactly as many Pokemon as it needs. Shooting for a certain size of BL makes no sense. What you want is focus on the size of UU (that is to say, how many Pokemon are used enough to be considered UU as opposed to NU). Just like we don't consider the size of the uber tier when tiering Pokemon as uber vs. OU, we shouldn't consider the size of BL.

    A lot of those Pokemon on your list of "obvious" BL Pokemon I disagree with. I mean, Hippopotas? That's a horrible Pokemon, and doubt anyone will really use that on a team that ends up winning. You could pair it with Rhyperior to get a super-powered Rhyperior, or you could just add something like Rhydon or Golem to your team to get two useful Pokemon, as opposed to one useful Pokemon and one useless Pokemon.
  25. Colonel M

    Colonel M I don't suck it's my team that sucks!
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    I wouldn't knock Snover and Hippopotas out of the picture however. Although the Pokemon themselves are mediocre to garbage, they're abilities help contribute to their teammate(s). Even though Rhyperior is one example with Hippopotas (and still, a good reason to use both), Snover, Glaceon, and Walrien become more obvious for Hail.

    I'm not saying that their abilities should knock them out of the picture of "obvious BL" as well as many other Pokemon. This is why I'm agreeing with Caelum's idea of it being a month at first and such. We really need a solid argument when we're banning these Pokemon and even I think 2 - 3 weeks won't cut it no matter how much we try to.

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