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UU Test

Discussion in 'Pokémon Policy' started by RBG, Nov 7, 2008.

  1. JabbaTheGriffin

    JabbaTheGriffin Stormblessed
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    I don't like the idea of time frames in this. It forces us to follow such a slow pace. Theorymon is usually right guys, there are going to be a few pokemon that are so obviously broken that we could knock them out in 2 weeks or less. Forcing ourselves to wait a month to do this just completely bogs down the entire process. I say for the first few months we just completely freeball it and make decisions as we see fit. When we get down to a small group of pokemon that are on the fence, then we can maybe do those like we did uber tests with set time frames and shit like that. However, for the time being I think we need to be a bit loose in our process.
  2. ODDish

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    Is it also worth re-considering terminology?

    Potentially a large number of pokemon in this second teir are going to be seeing a moderate amount of useage, as opposed to being truly under used.

    Also by not referring to the tier as "UU", you also further distance the concept from its previous incarnation, which might further appease the oldguard "UU" players opposed to the concept, and encourage them to give the new environment a chance.

    Just a thought ...
  3. gorm

    gorm
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    i like caelum's process alot, but how are we going to do with bold voting? we'll need a submission of vote worthy suspects and then a topic to bold vote *however many suspects are summoned up to tribal council that month. how many mons are we gonna be banning per discussion? should we cap this?

    i kind of agree with jabba as far as potential bogging the process down but i think overall caelum's timeframe is near idael since we have no idea what this new tier list even looks like and "no rhyperior come on" just doesn't seem like a rigorous starting point, despite it being pretty much a forgone conclusion. if people start spamming hippopotas/perior, then i guess smart people will just start spamming rain dance qwilfish/colo etc.

    I'm presonally kind of excited for this and i think alot of people have "BL teams" waiting in the wings.

    I think chaning terminology makes a ton of sense, but that's a big discussion in itself since honeslty "uber" is kind of a childish name in itself, and "overused" has a negative connotation even when it's our "ideal" tier.

    brawl i find always had reasonable, if a bit sober, tier names. we could model it after that, something like

    OverPowered[ pokemon], High Powered, Mid Powered [?], UnderPowered, Powerless for uber, ou , bl, uu and nu respectively

    also credit to aa since i think i stole the idea for these names from aams forums way back when

    just thinking out loud ~_~
  4. Caelum

    Caelum qibz official stalker
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    If theorymon is usually right, why are we doing this? Let's just theorymon the tier now and be done with it.

    So, you are opposed to waiting until the tier has actually settled? You'd prefer to make a decision while the tier is just a bunch of shit filled experimentation? I guarantee this process will be a 100% joke if we start making calls after 2 weeks but whatever.

    There should be no "aim" for the size of BL. There is no point to that. Once a giant BL metagame is developed then the barely used guys can be put into NU and banned as needed.

    Absolutely not. Hippopotas and Snover are garbage Pokemon. I am more than willing to start with 6-5 in my favor in exchange for giving their others members a slight advantage. If it turns out they are broken for this reason, they will be banned just like any other Pokemon.

    Also, not to speak for chaos, but may I remind some of you guys how upset chaos was when he discovered that deoxys was only banned for 2 weeks. I can't imagine he'd be happy to see something of this level only tested for 2 weeks before we start banning things. Maybe he can comment on this though :/
  5. jrrrrrrr

    jrrrrrrr wubwubwub
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    I personally don't think that it will take 6 whole weeks for people to realize that Rhyperior is BL. I say that if we do have an excruciatingly long time frame like that one, at least give an exception to the first round of testing just for time and common sense's sake =\
  6. X-Act

    X-Act np: Biffy Clyro - Shock Shock
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    I'll just say that I'll use my simple algorithm that determines what Pokemon are OU for UU as well... but only when the BL tier has been set in stone. This will be done to differentiate between 'UU' and 'NU' (or whatever we're going to call them). There is no mathematical way that determines a Pokemon's power yet. If that were the case, we'd use it to determine the Uber tier and the BL tier straight away without any testing.
  7. RBG

    RBG But I keep cruising, can't stop, won't stop grooving.
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    Why are you all worrying about Snover? My Abomasnow team is ready to go!

    And I agree, it would be nice to get chaos' opinion on our timeline
  8. JabbaTheGriffin

    JabbaTheGriffin Stormblessed
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    What a retarded way to tackle my argument. No offense. We already did theorymon the entire UU tier and it didn't work. All I'm saying is that with a couple weeks experience coupled with theorymon we can quickly knock out some of the "obvious BL" Pokemon. I personally think this process will be a complete joke if we make people wait 1 month before we knock out all the broken shit they're being forced to play with. I don't get why some of you people don't understand how long a month in internet time really is. I'm not saying we're going to knock out 20-30 pokemon within 2 weeks. I'm saying that maybe if 2-3 are so broken that they're on every team we should quickly take them out of the process so we can speed it up and get to the harder decisions rather than bogging ourselves down in the easy part.
  9. TAY

    TAY You and I Know
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    Just posting to say that I am in total support of Jabba in this case.
  10. RBG

    RBG But I keep cruising, can't stop, won't stop grooving.
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    Well, what exactly do you think is a good timeline? What if it turns out that a number of the NEW UUs balance each other out and none are "Obviously Borderline"? Personally, 6 weeks is too long for the first time, and 2 weeks is to short. We are giving people a whole new metagame to play with.

    I understand that there might be a pokemon or two that might be "obviously BL". But we will not know FOR SURE until we start the test.
  11. JabbaTheGriffin

    JabbaTheGriffin Stormblessed
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    I understand that and that's why I said that theorymon would have to be coupled with experience in order to make the decisions. I'm essentially just saying if there's some Pokemon that are so broken that they basically control the metagame, we need to be flexible with our timelines so that we don't get stuck with a metagame that's clearly going to yield no results further than "x, y and z are clearly bl" for too long. I think we need to be quick on our feet with this project or else people may lose interest.
  12. Colonel M

    Colonel M I don't suck it's my team that sucks!
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    Scratch Snover. I just found out that Abomasnow is BL at the moment, so there could be an extremely different scenario to Hail at least.

    I'd still say 3 weeks is more than enough time. I agree with chaos over and over about the Deoxys-S testing being too early (due to Platinum) and too little of time
  13. RBG

    RBG But I keep cruising, can't stop, won't stop grooving.
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    Understood Jabba, I'm assuming if such a situation happens, then we will remove the pokemon like how we removed Deoxys-s during the Garchomp test. I'm just wondering, what set of timelines would you use for the test if we used caelum's method?

    Edit: (on a side note, Post 600!)
  14. Jumpman16

    Jumpman16 np: Michael Jackson - "Mon in the Mirror" (DW mix)
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    ok first of all i just skimmed and will read and digest in full later. a few things:

    1) two weeks should be the timeframe for kicking out obviously-bl pokemon, not four or six. it isnt fair to either the "what did you do to my metagame?" people or to the community as a whole because it wastes 2-4 weeks to act on something that is "virtually obvious" after two.

    2) there really, really needs to be "intelligent people" who play UU that decide on the bold voting that caught my eye as a suggestion here. the reason tangerine and i were able to admnister this last time is because we both knew/know the standard, ou metagame well enough to understand the "practice" part of it that actually played out, not just theory. at the time, skarm and cloud both admitted, unprompted, that they didn't know enough about the metagame to be making many judgment calls. this will be true of UU as well and even more important because less people are concerned with UU which means less "intelligent people" with their hands on the actual process.
  15. Caelum

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    I don't get the assumption that something is going to be "obviously broken". If that's true, why don't we just ban the obviously broken Pokes before the test even starts? The UU whiners have been complaining about their metagame for months and months, I think they can wait a few weeks while it is "destroyed". Sometimes when I'm bored I'll occasionally take up those players that want a "BL Battle" and I've actually found it to be a very diverse metagame that doesn't have many obviously broken candidates. Granted, my experience is limited. Just like 2 weeks would be limited experience. The most broken Pokemon I noticed from those battles was Alakazam and that's irrelevant now since its OU. It's also interesting to note that a lot of UU players already have their minds made up as to what the believe is broken. Rampardos, Slaking (even though in my experience they both suck in a BL / UU game), Ursaring etc. I'm just not convinced that 2 weeks is enough experience to get people over these biases.

    Anyway, I won't fight a lost battle and just roll with it.


    As to address your intelligent people comments, Jump, I agree with you 100%. This should be simple enough to work out as I think there are enough active badge holders interested in this. J7r, myself, Venom, Earthworm, ODDish (I think I remember him saying he wasn't going to be active in this test but I'm not certain), Jabba (maybe? not sure but I think he plays UU a lot), RB Golbat (same deal as jabba). There are other non badge holders like Lemmiwinks (he was pretty intelligent in the now dead bl / uu discussion thread) that would be good candidates as well off the top of my head. I think we have a good amount of people capable of doing this job.

    J7r, stop saying Rhyperior is BL. Why are we even doing this if you have that mentality going into this 100%?
  16. RBG

    RBG But I keep cruising, can't stop, won't stop grooving.
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    I think right now we have somewhat agreed (at least a few of us on IRC) that Three weeks would be good.

    And yeah, i haven't played UU for a while (since aero, venasaur and friends were added), but I am VERY enthusiastic about this (in case you couldn't tell by my insistence on getting this started). You can bet you will find me testing some pokemon in the NEW UU ladder.

    Proof of my enthusiasm:
    Code:
    [10:23pm] Venom: the rmt forum is flooding with UU teams
    [10:23pm] RB-Golbat: tis a shame
    [10:23pm] RB-Golbat: old UU will be no more soon
    [10:23pm] RB-Golbat: and from its ashes
    [10:23pm] RB-Golbat: a new light will shine
    [10:23pm] RB-Golbat: a beacon of hope
    [10:24pm] Havak:                          :)
    [10:24pm] • Colonel_M sheds a tear for the new UU.
    [10:24pm] RB-Golbat: and i have no clue what im talking about
    [10:24pm] jumpluff: lol
    [10:24pm] • Colonel_M Slams head on the desk.
    [10:24pm] jumpluff: great visionary RBG
    [10:24pm] jumpluff: hey 
    [10:24pm] RB-Golbat: but it sounded inspirational
    
  17. gorm

    gorm
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    yeah i just want to make it clear that i'd love to participate in this project as well, be it process help or battling//bold voting ^_^~
  18. Caelum

    Caelum qibz official stalker
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    I'll settle for 3 weeks since I've found 2 weeks was about the time Platinum settled down. I'd want at least 1 week of a settled down metagame before people start making calls.
  19. kd24

    kd24 yo daddy musta been a drug dealer? why, cuz you're dope
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    i could really use the experience so count me in (like gorm, ill battle / bold vote) plus this is something new and exciting and i definitely dont wanna miss out.
  20. Colonel M

    Colonel M I don't suck it's my team that sucks!
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    Well I've said I'd help, and after the agreement on 3 weeks I'll do what I can to play the "new" UU.
  21. jrrrrrrr

    jrrrrrrr wubwubwub
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    Even though most of the time your posts are spot-on, in this thread there has been one really out of place statement in all of them...first it was that asinine way of responding to jabba and then there is this really confusing one.

    The entire point of this test is that we are acknowledging the BL tier. Obviously we think that there are a bunch of BLs that are going to be put into UU or we wouldn't be doing the test, we would just add all of the BLs into UU. I find it hard to believe that everyone who is posting in this thread doesn't already have a few pokemon that they know will be BL, why try to call someone out on something as meaningless as this when you could be helping instead? If you aren't under the same kind of mentality then I don't think that you are in reality at the moment.

    There are obviously going to things that are overpowering, everybody is going to use them. 4 or even 6 weeks is FAR too long for the initial round of testing, we are going to lose a lot of people if we wait around to make decisions that we could legitimately make with theorymon and nobody would object. And to preempt the next question, yes we still need to go through it and treat every BL with the same testing procedure, but seriously an extra month for something like Rhyperior is too much. Just like when people wanted to wait two whole months for each suspect on the ladder, you need to realize how long the time frame you're suggesting actually is. I agree with Jabba, especially since what he posted agrees with me exactly except its just on this page.
  22. Caelum

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    I'm only calling you out because you are going to be the leader of the project (I believe that was established right ?). I don't care if you believe it, just don't say it outside of here so a bunch of other users don't just jump on your bandwagon before the test even starts because j7r said it.

    I still don't get the logic by obviously something is going to be broken but whatever.
  23. RBG

    RBG But I keep cruising, can't stop, won't stop grooving.
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    Jrrrrrrr, i think we have aggreed each stage should be three weeks long. And es, there are some pokemon that we agree will be BL, but instead of stating them, we should find out what they will be from testing.

    Also, one more question (that i think the answer is obvious). Ladder rating for UU will be reset right?
  24. jrrrrrrr

    jrrrrrrr wubwubwub
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    Well, obviously in the actual topic I am going to maintain neutrality since everyone always agrees with everything I say in every thread, but I digress.

    Every stage being 3 weeks could work, I guess. I think we'll get to a point where 3 weeks is not long enough to make meaningful decisions, but it will be great to have a fluctuating tier that we actuall keep track of. I like this compromise.
  25. Caelum

    Caelum qibz official stalker
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    Another issue I would like to bring up with this testing that has yet to be discussed is a variation of Species Clause. Are NFEs of the same Pokemon going to be allowed as there counterparts? For example, can I have Snover and Abomasnow on the same team ?

    BTW, did an admin ever approve this or are we just talking amongst ourselves lol.

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