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Vaporeon and Friends

Discussion in 'BW OU Teams' started by Goodra, Feb 1, 2013.

  1. Goodra

    Goodra

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2011
    Messages:
    142
    Vaporeon and Friends

    Hello again Smogon community. This here is my second RMT and another weatherless team I've been trying out and like so far. This team has had little issue with Sun or Sand teams. I still have had issues with Rain (who doesn't) though. Changes made are bolded and marked in red. I took a bit more of a balance mindset to this team compared to my previous one. Well on to the team!

    The Team
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    Team Analysis



    [​IMG]
    Gengar (F) @ Black Sludge
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature
    - Subsitute
    - Focus Blast
    - Shadow Ball
    - Disable

    Brought back my Gengar to replace Espeon as suggested by Jimbon. Instead of being a scarfer like I originally had him Gengar is now the ever annoying SubDisable set. This set allows me come in on Pokemon it forces out or weaken teams and set up substitute and Disable opponents moves. I can proceed to hit them with stab Shadow Ball or Focus Blast if they are fighting weak. This set works especially well on choice locked Pokemon forcing them out when their locked move is Disabled. Gengar works well with Scizor who can switch out with Gengar and let Scizor handle Gengar's threats. Vaporeon can also pass Wishs to Gengar allowing him to setup more Subs. He uses the common EV spread allowing him to outpace many threats and throw out Subs.

    [​IMG]
    Vaporeon (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Water Absorb
    EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 Spe
    Bold Nature
    - Scald
    - Protect
    - Wish
    - Roar​

    My mixed wall and friend to many of my teammates. Vaporeon's job is to come in on threatening boosters like Calm Mind Keldeo and proceed to phaze them out with Roar. Vaporeon also does a nice job of absorbing Dizzle teams Hydro Pump and Surf choice locked moves forcing a switch and racking up Stealth Rock damage from switches. Vaporeon also passes massive Wishs to my weaken teammates giving them a second wind to clean up with little fear. Vaporeon works especially well with my Gliscor taking both his Water and Ice attacks and Gliscor handling Electric and Grass aimed at Vaporeon. Scald serves as Vaporeon's stab of choice and burn inducer crippling physical threats like Scizor. I used the basic spread to tank hits and outside Adamant Scizor.​

    [​IMG]
    Gliscor (M) @ Toxic Orb
    Trait: Poison Heal
    EVs: 244 HP / 48 Def / 216 Spd
    Jolly Nature
    - Earthquake
    - Taunt
    - Stealth Rock
    - Roost​

    I took Jimbon's advice and switched Gliscor into my lead replacing Toxic with Taunt. Gliscor serves as Stealth Rock setter, prevent Hazard setup and wall buddies with Vaporeon. I picked Gliscor over Landorus-T since Poison Heal and Roost give me more survivability and I feel I have enough physical offense with Breloom and Scizor. Gliscor is my lead Pokemon and lays down Stealth Rock. After doing this Toxic Orb activates and Gliscor proceeds to stall and smack around Earthquake weak opponents until it is forced out. As I mention earlier Gliscor works fantasticly with Vaporeon covering each others weakness and harassing the opposing team with taunts and burns. The EV spread gives me bulk and enough speed to outspeed many hazard setters including Skarmory, Forretress, Ferrothorn, Heatran and most importantly Deoxys-D. The extra defense helps Gliscor take shots from Terrakion.

    [​IMG]
    Scizor (F) @ Choice Band
    Trait: Technician
    EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
    Adamant Nature
    - U-Turn
    - Superpower
    - Pursuit
    - Bullet Punch​

    Scizor serves as my revenge kill, Pursuit trapper and general harrasser to force switches. Scizor helps me punch holes through threats like Terrakion, Tyranitar, Ferrothorn, Heatran and Blissey with Bullet Punch or Superpower. With Pursuit Scizor traps threats like Latios, Latias, Alakazam and Starmie though I have to beware of Scald's burn from the ladder. Finally you T-turn allows me scout teams as well as hit Pokemon like Celebi for massive damage. Scizor works well with Vaporeon who can take fire attacks aimed at Scizor as well as heal a large portion of his HP with wish. It return Scizor can take out some of Vaporeons more annoying checks like Celebi. I use the basic EV spread for bulk and power not much to explain there.​

    [​IMG]
    Latios (M) @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature
    - Draco Meteor
    - Trick
    - Surf
    - Psyshock

    As suggested by Mr Green and Alexander I replaced Gengar with Latios as my Revenge Killer. Latios defends my team from Thundurus-T who could otherwise sweep my entire team. Latios also serves to handle Sun Venusaur, Scarf Keldeo and Scarf Terrakion with Psyshock. Draco Meteor is used as my Stab of choice for Pokemon not weak or resistant to Psyshock and Surf. Latios as mention earlier works well with the whole team dealing with sweepers like Thundurus-T and Breloom. Latios can also sweep through a weaken team who's Latios checks have been removed. Scizor and Lucario make a good partners who can come in on Mamoswine threatening him with Bullet Punch. EV spread gives me maximum speed and power for outrunning other Scarfers.

    [​IMG]
    Lucario (F) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Justified
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
    Adamant Nature
    - Swords Dance
    - Close Combat
    - ExtremeSpeed
    - Bullet Punch​

    Breloom was originally used here but my team was too weak to Ice. If my team is left with just Breloom, Latios, and Gliscor I could easily get sweeped by Ice Shard Mamoswine or Weavile. Lucario is my sweeper and late game cleaner. Lucario's job is to either come in on something checks when the opposing team is weaken or all of Lucario's threats have been handled and proceed to boost. Close Combat is my STAB of choice OHKO Pokemon both week or neutral to the after a SD boost. ExtremeSpeed allows me to pick off weaken Pokemon and weaken priority users like Breloom and Conkeldurr. Bullet Punch is my last move giving me a second priority move and I means off dealing with opposing SubDisable Gengar. It also works well against weaken Tyranitar when I don't wanna lower my stats using Close Combat. Lucario works well with Gengar as Gengar can switch out behind a Sub letting Lucario get hit by Pursuit or Crunch gaining a Justified boost. Gengar can also absorb Fighting and Ground moves aim at Lucario. Lucario also can take Dark or U-turns aimed at Latios. Like most the team Lucario also benefits from Vaporeon who can sponge Fire attacks and pass Wishs bringing Lucario back to full health giving her a chance for a second sweep. Has the average sweeper EV spread with Adamant nature for extra power.​


    Importable:
    Code:
    Gengar (F) @ Black Sludge
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature
    - Subsitute
    - Focus Blast
    - Shadow Ball
    - Disable
    
    Vaporeon (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Water Absorb
    EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 Spe
    Bold Nature
    - Scald
    - Protect
    - Wish
    - Roar
    
    Gliscor (M) @ Toxic Orb
    Trait: Poison Heal
    EVs: 244 HP / 48 Def / 216 Spd
    Jolly Nature
    - Earthquake
    - Taunt
    - Stealth Rock
    - Roost
    
    Scizor (F) @ Choice Band
    Trait: Technician
    EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
    Adamant Nature
    - U-Turn
    - Superpower
    - Pursuit
    - Bullet Punch
    
    Latios (M) @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature 
    - Draco Meteor
    - Trick
    - Surf
    - Psyshock
     
    Lucario (F) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Justified
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
    Adamant Nature
    - Swords Dance
    - Close Combat
    - ExtremeSpeed
    - Bullet Punch
    Conclusion
    Well thats my new team in a nutshell. I mainly tried to something different from typical weather and HO. Its done well for me so far and hasn't been completely swept....yet. I'm always looking for advice to improve the team and welcoem changes that aren't to drastic. Thanks for anyone who reads this and for any rates. Thanks to anyone who gives my team a Luvdisc.
  2. Mr. Green

    Mr. Green

    Joined:
    May 14, 2011
    Messages:
    143
    Hi, there

    Solid team, known only to a weakness Thundurus-T especially in his set Double Booster with Thunder, it hurts a lot to Scizor, Vaporeon, Espeon and Gengar and Hidden Power Ice to Breloom and Gliscor whereas the priority of Scizor and Breloom unfortunately Thundurus-T resists us.
    To solve this problem I would try Scarf Latios> Gengar. Gengar also like Latios outrun Scarf Terrakion, Keldeo and Starmie and can kill them using respectively Psychock and Draco Meteor, with Latios considers that there is a safety margin in addition, as with Gengar to kill Scarf Terrakion have to resort to Focus Blast that is not the most accurate, while Latios goes without fail using Psyshock.

    Besides, in your team I see that you only use Stealth Rock as Entry Hazards, nothing Spikes and Toxic Spikes Spin-bloker does not seem so important, even counting that Gliscor is a Pokemon with good bulkyness and if the rocks are removed can be put in a second time. Returning to the main reason why I am suggesting Latios, is that it can kill Thundurus-T in each case. Exchange in Latios if it uses Nasty Plot is killed by Draco Meteor, it uses Agility Latios resists Hidden Power Ice and attacked him again with Draco Meteor., In both cases, the better he Latios.
    Good luck, with your team!

    Set
    Show Hide

    Latios (M) @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Draco Meteor
    - Trick
    - Surf
    - Psyshock
  3. Goodra

    Goodra

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2011
    Messages:
    142
    Thanks for the rate Mr Green. I haven't encountered many double dance Thundurus-T but could definitely see an issue there if I didn't have Light Screen up. I'll test out Scarf Latios in Gengar's place though it puts my team at having three members weak to ice.
  4. Alexander.

    Alexander.
    is a Team Rater Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2012
    Messages:
    1,666
    Hello man,

    I got your VM so I'll give you a rate.

    First of all, as Mr. Green already said, your team is weak to Thundurus-T which can smash you quite easily. Therefore, I'd go with Mr. Green's suggestion to use Choice Scarf Latios replacing Gengar. Choice Scarf Latios can check Thundurus-T well and he's a very good revenge-killer too so he would be fit fine on your team. The set that Mr. Green suggested you is okay, so you can use it. Finally, I suggest you to use Hidden Power Fire replacing Psyshock. Hidden Power Fire is better than Psyshock on Double Screen Espeon because it allows to destroy Ferrothorn, Skarmory and Forretress which can be problematic.

    Good luck!
  5. Goodra

    Goodra

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2011
    Messages:
    142
    Thanks for the rate Alexander. I changed Gengar to Latios as suggested by Mr. Green and you. I'll test out HP Fire Espeon again and see if it helps me more then Psyshock though I'll miss speed tying with other positive nature Spe 110. I showed the changes in bold red.
  6. Jimbon

    Jimbon fools and worthless liars
    is a Team Rater Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2012
    Messages:
    510
    Hi there,

    Interesting team, but I'm not really understanding the role of Espeon on this team. It serves as a dual screener and your lead, but I'd argue you really have nothing to abuse these screens. Your only setup sweeper is Breloom, who isn't sweeping entire teams off the bat. Not to mention the number of choiced users on your team kind of wastes the idea of abusing screens, as more often than not you're going to be forced out after one move, wasting turns that Reflect / Light Screen are up. I'd suggest dropping Espeon and using Gliscor as your lead, as you still keep the same team dynamic. You still gain a way to prevent hazards against most leads, but regain a switch-in for Terrakion, Scizor and the other prominent physical threats of the tier.

    As a result of losing Espeon, you now gain another spot to add in a team member. Looking at your team right now without Espeon, I think something like Alakazam could work, as Scizor removes it's checks and it forms a very good offensive partnership with Breloom. Adding Alakazam also gives you a last minute check to anything, thanks to Magic Guard. It does patch up some of your weaknesses slightly, namely checking things such as DD Dragonite who look troublesome when Vaporeon is weakened. In general it just gives you something to abuse the Stealth Rock Gliscor sets up, as with hazards and being able to hit on both sides of the spectrum thanks to Psyshock, it makes Alakazam especially hard to wall. If you don't like Alakazam then something like Gengar could also work, as it can tear apart defensive cores just like Alakazam.

    edit: if you want to use Gengar, I'd consider using the Sub Disable set as it really gives a lot of defensive teams without a phazer some trouble -- I'll leave the set below.

    Cool team, consider these changes and I think you'll have much more success. Good luck!

    sets (open)
    Gliscor @ Toxic Orb
    Trait: Poison Heal
    EVs: 244 HP / 48 Def / 216 Spd
    Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
    - Taunt
    - Stealth Rock
    - Earthquake
    - Roost

    Alakazam @ Focus Sash
    Trait: Magic Guard
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd | 30 Atk / 30 Def
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Psyshock
    - Shadow Ball
    - Focus Blast
    - Hidden Power [Ice]

    Gengar @ Black Sludge
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Shadow Ball
    - Focus Blast
    - Substitute
    - Disable
  7. Goodra

    Goodra

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2011
    Messages:
    142
    Thanks for the rate Jimbon. I admit Espeon was just more of a filler to bounce back Hazards but never considered Taunt Gliscor working just as well at shutting down Hazards. Alakazam doesn't sound like a bad idea though I also really like Gengar. I went with the Gengar set you suggested and he has really helped the team and trolled so many choice users. Thanks again :D
  8. Goodra

    Goodra

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2011
    Messages:
    142
    After some more testing I made my own change replacing Breloom with Lucario. My weakness to Ice caused a few matches where I was left with just Latios and Gliscor or Breloom. I would end up being swept by an Ice Shard Mamoswine, Agility Thundurus-T HP Ice or Weavile because of this. Also I've run into a lot of teams with several Breloom checks further limiting her. I am also debating on changing out Roar on Vaporeon for Toxic but I haven't decided on that yet. Lucario has done well so far and I will further test these changes but so far my team has done much better.

    If you have any further suggestions feel free to reply.
  9. Electrolyte

    Electrolyte For every king that died, oh, they would crown another
    is an official Team Rateris a Contributor to Smogonis a Battle Server Moderator
    Mentor

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2012
    Messages:
    1,929
    hello there, nice, solid team!

    There are a couple of problems I see here. Your defensive core isn't supporting your team enough. Vap / Gliscor are not only dragging your team behind momentumwise but aren't covering enough threats for the rest of your team to be able to focus fully on offense. Opponents with BoltBeam coverage and / or strong unresisted STABs can muscle past your sponges into your 'overflow' pokemon- Latios. This results in the forced use of your Latios to tank many hits for you- and because it's a scarfer, it won't last long and you'll need to fix it. Your sponges are also holding you back momentum wise. It's really tough to set up with Lucario or Gengar after you use your Vaporeon to wall something. Your team is really split between pure offense from Luc / Gar and pure defense from Vap. This, imo, needs to change. Your team needs something more offensive over Vap- something that you can use to take water type attacks but doesn't completely ditch momentum while doing so. A good replacement to your water type sponge is Scarfed Keldeo-R over Vaporeon.

    [​IMG]
    Keldeo @ Choice Scarf
    Timid / 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    Hydro Pump / Secret Sword / Hidden Power Ice / Surf


    Keldeo is a nice replacement to Vaporeon because it handles Rain teams more efficiently and doesn't sacrifice momentum in order to do so. It can tank one or two hydro pumps or scalds in Rain, and reply back with powerful, fast Hydro Pumps or Secret Swords. It's so important because with it Rain becomes much less of a problem, and you don't have to rely on Latios to sponge hits all of the time when you want to keep momentum. Keldeo's fast speed also lets you revenge kill many threats Lucario or Scizor can't check reliably- Volcarona and Landorus-I, for example. Its STABs will help against Sand and Sun too, and give you another great answer to Tyranitar / Ninetales and friends. Hydro Pump is your main STAB, and hits everything that doesn't resist it for a lot of damage. Secret Sword is secondary STAB; it hits Blissey quite hard and can be used to break walls. Hidden Power Ice lets you revenge DDancers such as Mence / Dnite, and hits Celebi / Loom / Lati@s. Surf is for when you need to hit and don't want to risk a miss.

    With the addition of Keldeo, Latios's role as a scarfer becomes less meaningful. For this reason, I suggest you change Latios into LO Roost. This means LO > Scarf, Roost > Trick, and Hidden Power Fire > Surf. Being that even with the Keldeo change you'll still need Latios to sponge some special hits, giving it the ability to heal itself up and hit even harder will help a lot. HP Fire over Surf as Keldeo already has great water type coverage and HP fIre lets you beat Sun and Steels.

    Finally, I don't really see the point of Gengar on your team. Its speed isn't really needed since you have 2 priority users and a scarfer, and its typing and attacks are covered more or less offensively by Latios and defensively by Gliscor. Your team doesn't really have any problems handling Breloom, since you have Gliscor, and Lati@s can be beaten by Scizor. In fact, Gengar makes your team less effective against opposing weather teams, as it is weak to Tyranitar and can't sponge any attacks from Sun / Rain teams. Instead of Gengar, I would use Dragonite.

    [​IMG]
    Dragonite @ Lum Berry
    Adamant / 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
    Dragon Dance / Outrage / Earthquake / Fire Punch


    Dragonite is a fine addition because of its great bulk and resistances as well as offensive power and capabilities. Dragonite's presence on your team pretty much erases Rain / Sun as threats to your team, since Dragonite can wall many common attackers from those two kinds of teams. Dragonite also has the ability to increase its speed and power for a sweep- giving you a nice cleaner that can finish off or start off matches with a bang. Multiscale is an awesome ability and a main reason why I think Dnite would work so well for you. It gives Dnite plenty of opportunities to come in and set up, giving you a fair share of bulk and offense. Dragon Dance is there for obvious reasons; it lets you voost offensice stats to scary levels and then finish off opponents. Outrage is your STAB move; it hits everything hard even unboosted. Earthquake and Fire Punch are for coverage, as EQ beats Jirachi, Tyranitar, and Ninetales, as well as Steel types like Heatran. Fire Punch can be used to combat sun teams and beat Ferro / Forretress / Skarmory. ESpeed can be used instead of Fire Punch, but you already have a scarfer and two other forms of priority so I don't see the point of adding more. Hitting steels is better imo. Lum Berry is so that you can shrug off Jirachi's paralysis or Venasaur's sleep powder. It helps against burns too. Its weakness to SR is mitigated by Gliscor's fast taunt that prevents hazards.

    Now, for one last tiny change. I'd use Crunch over Bullet Punch on Lucario; BP is redundant since you have Scizor, who handles Terrakion well. Crunch on the other hand hits Jellicent, whom you could have troubles with, and Reuniclus, whose TR could dismantle the offensive nature of your team.

    Good luck!
  10. Goodra

    Goodra

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2011
    Messages:
    142
    Thanks for the rate Electrolyte. I appreciate the advice but there are just too many changes there that are very drastic especially removing Vaporeon from a team called Vaporeon and friends. Also and forgive me for being a noob for taking tastes over common battle sense but I hate that pony Keldeo XD I'll consider using Crunch over Bullet Punch though. I may replace Gengar but I won't use another 4X Ice weak Pokemon. As I mention in a previous post Ice Shard was already to big an issue for my team and Dragonite would add on to the problem. Add in a lack of a spinner and Multiscale won't be saving me thanks to Stealth Rock since Gliscor isn't guaranteed to always stop hazards.

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