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Vaporeon (Hydration Wall)

Discussion in 'Uploaded Analyses' started by Jimera0, Sep 28, 2011.

  1. Jimera0

    Jimera0 You don't understand, Edgar is the one in the hole!

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    [​IMG]
    [SET]
    name: Hydration Wall
    move 1: Rest
    move 2: Scald
    move 3: Roar / Wish
    move 4: Toxic / Ice Beam
    item: Leftovers
    ability: Hydration
    nature: Bold
    evs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>While the previous set attempts to use Hydration for its offensive potential, this set aims to use the combination of Hydration and Rest to turn Vaporeon into an unbreakable wall. The purpose of this set is to take incoming attacks, support the team, and deal out decent damage. With this physically defensive spread, Vaporeon's defenses become nearly balanced, allowing her to wall threats on both ends of the spectrum with extreme proficiency. Additionally, her fantastic recovery in Rest combined with her immunity to status makes her a surprisingly effective stallbreaker, since wearing her down over time is futile. Just remember that she is slower than most threats, so use Rest early and often.</p>

    <p>Rest is the absolute crux of this set, and it cannot function without it. Scald is her main STAB, which hits very hard for a defensive Pokemon. This is thanks to her impressive base 110 Special Attack and the boost Scald acquires from the rain. The burn chance is an added boon that can greatly increase her walling potential. The choice between Roar and Wish is a tough one, and mainly hinges on what your team needs more. If you need a reliable shuffler and phazer, Roar is the way to go. If you need a near invincible team healer, Wish is the move you should choose. Toxic is usually the preferred option in the final slot, allowing it to beat the likes of Blissey and Porygon2 in a stall war while also making it much easier to wear down other Pokemon. Ice Beam is also an option, as it gives you that extra bit of security against the omnipresent Ice-type weak Pokemon that fill the OU tier, should you need it.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>Hydration Stall Vaporeon is a greatly underestimated defensive threat. Since she can recover all its HP in one move with Rest, she has the ability to wall any Pokemon that cannot OHKO her, while all the other walls in the tier can only wall Pokemon that fail to 2HKO them. As such, the number of Pokemon it can wall is extremely high, as these calculations demonstrate. Even super effective attacks are possible to wall. All the below calculations include Leftovers recovery.</p>

    <ul class="damage_calculation">
    <li>252 SpAtk Choice Scarf Rotom-W Volt Switch vs 252 HP/0 SpDef Vaporeon: 44.61% - 53.02%
    3HKO</li>
    <li>252 SpAtk Choice Specs Rotom-W Volt Switch vs 252 HP/0 SpDef Vaporeon: 66.59% - 78.88%
    2HKO</li>
    <li>252 Atk Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs 252 HP/252+ Def Vaporeon: 30.39% - 35.78%
    4HKO</li>
    <li>252 +1 Atk Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs 252 HP/252+ Def Vaporeon: 45.26% - 53.23%
    2-3HKO</li>
    <li>252 Atk Haxorus Outrage vs 252 HP/252+ Def Vaporeon: 50% - 59.05%
    2-3HKO</li>
    <li>252 Atk Choice Band Haxorus Outrage vs 252 HP/252+ Def Vaporeon: 75% - 88.58%
    2HKO</li>
    <li>8 SpAtk (Defensive Calm Mind) Virizion Giga Drain vs 252 HP/0 SpDef Vaporeon: 33.62% - 40.09%
    3-4HKO</li>
    <li>8 +1 SpAtk (Defensive Calm Mind) Virizion Giga Drain vs 252 HP/0 SpDef Vaporeon: 51.08% - 60.13%
    2-3HKO</li>
    <li>252 SpAtk Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs 252 HP/0 SpDef Vaporeon: 76.94% - 90.73%
    2HKO</li>
    </ul>

    <p>Vaporeon is gifted with a wide array of useful moves to abuse. While Rest is non-negotiable, all the other moves can be substituted out for other options. Surf is viable over Scald for the minor power boost (which is amplified by the rain). However, it usually lands the same OHKOs and 2HKOs that Scald lands, and that burn chance is hard to give up. The final two moveslots are where you can get really creative. Haze can be used over Roar, especially if you don't have much in the way of hazard support. Haze allows Vaporeon to crush Baton Pass teams built around Espeon, and also gives you an edge in those tricky last Pokemon situations. Acid Armor can be used with a specially defensive EV spread, turning Vapreon from a bulky water into an immovable object. However, in order to do this you have to give up either an attacking or support option to make room for Acid Armor. Baton Pass can aid in Wish passing and pass Acid Armor boosts, so it is worth a look if you're running either move. Rain Dance can be used to effectively mess with opposing weather inducers as they switch in, but is dead weight against teams without weather. There are many other moves Vaporeon can use effectively in the last two slots, so it can be worth the time to take a look at her movepool and pick whatever moves work best for your team. The 4 EVs in Speed are specifically used to outspeed Jellicent and Toxic it before it can Taunt you, so if you're not running Toxic you can move the Speed EVs into Special Defense.</p>

    <p>It goes without saying that Drizzle Politoed is absolutely vital for using this set effectively, as without rain, Rest is more of a liability than a benefit. In order to ensure that Politoed and Vaporeon's roles don't overlap, it is recommended you run a Choice item on Politoed. The other kinds of support that Vaporeon needs largely depends on what moves you choose to use. If she has Roar, hazard support is great, since this Vaporeon is an extremely effective shuffler. If Toxic is not used, then Toxic Spike support is nearly vital. Even when she does have Toxic, Toxic Spikes can give her the ability to beat threats she normally would not be able to get an attack in against, such as Choice Band Haxorus. Forretress can lay all sorts of entry hazards and covers Vaporeon’s Grass-type weakness, so it fills that roll well. If you don't have Roar then something to deal with stat boosters is vital, as Vaporeon becomes set-up bait for many of them. In terms of type synergy, Virizon and specially Defensive Jirachi make great teammates, being able to absorb the powerful Electric- and Grass-type attacks aimed at Vaporeon, while she absorbs the Fire-type and physical attacks aimed at them. Virizon is also a great counter to Ferrothorn, who causes Vaporeon a lot of trouble. Ferrothorn is a great ally in addition to being a formidable enemy, as it can lay entry hazards for Vaporeon to abuse as well as resisting her weaknesses. Tentacruel and Toxicroak completely wall Vaporeon and can use her as setup fodder, so a Psychic-type attacker can make a great partner. Latias and Latios make great partners in this respect, as they also have great type synergy with Vaporeon, though they need to watch out for a boosted Sucker Punch from Toxicroak. Rain abusing Dragonite can also help deal with those two if you give it Thunder and Hurricane, and can shrug off any Grass-type moves thrown at Vaporeon. Ground-types can also threaten both Toxicroak and Tentacruel with their STAB moves and take those dangerous Electric-type attacks, but be careful not to amplify your Grass-type weakness too much when picking one.</p>

    Alright, I've written up the anaylsis. I tried to follow the guidelines as closely as possible, but this is my first one so I'm bound to have made a few mistakes. Also I'm still open to changing some of the options and stuff I've put, but you had better have a good argument for the change.

    EDIT: OH and also the "Other Options" section is going to need to be changed, but I'm not really sure how to go about that seeing as I didn't write the other analysis'. If anyone can give me some direction on that issue, it'd be greatly appreciated.

    EDIT2: I've made changes refering to the first check, however they were not all exactly as perscribed. If you want to see my reasoning for the changes I made differently see post #49
  2. Super Mario Bro

    Super Mario Bro All we ever look for

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    I think you need to change the slashes quite a bit. It should look like this:

    move 1: Rest / Protect
    move 2: Scald
    move 3: Roar / Toxic / Ice Beam
    move 4: Wish
    item: Leftovers
    ability: Hydration
    nature: Bold
    evs: 252 HP / 224 Def / 32 SpD

    Wish is a really fantastic move on every defensive Vaporeon set because of its high HP, and its immunity to status because of hydration makes the set even better. Rest should probably be the first slash, but Protect is also a good option (scouting and not being shut down by Tar/Tales).

    Acid Armor is too gimmicky and shut down by every electric, special grass, and leech seed. AC at best.

    I really don't think this set plays too differently from the set currently on site though, so it might just deserve a mention in AC and/or the overview.
  3. Omicron

    Omicron
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    Actually Acid Armor is one of the perks of this set, it allows Vaporeon to outstall some physical attackers. In addition, I would go with:

    move 1: Rest
    move 2: Scald
    move 3: Roar / Toxic / Acid Armor
    move 4: Acid Armor
    item: Leftovers
    ability: Hydration
    nature: Calm
    evs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD

    Calm + 252 / 252 with Acid Armor helps Vappy wall special attackers while AA helps patch up its defense

    EDIT: actually I wouldn't even use Wish............
  4. Jimera0

    Jimera0 You don't understand, Edgar is the one in the hole!

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    Believe me, I've played both this and Water Absorb Vaporeon and it plays hella different. The biggest difference is the freedom to fill so many supporting roles instead of just one (or ocassionally squeezing out two, if you're willing to let Scald be your only option to hurt things). Actually try it yourself and you'll see the difference.

    I disagree about Protect over Rest, especially with the Balanced EVs I've given. One thing you'll find about Ninetails and Tyranitar is that it's easy to punish them for switching into Vaporeon, as neither one likes Toxic, and Tyranitar hates being burned as well. With Protect you lose that insane ability to heal all your health in one turn. It's this that turns Vaporeon into a ridiculously sturdy wall, as you can now wall stuff that gets 2HKOs on you as well as those that can only get 3HKOs. If you manage to burn or toxic something that can 2HKO on the switch, you can actually stall them out barring a critical hit.

    However I could mention Protect as an option in the additional comments as it does allow it to handle Tyranitar and Ninetales a bit better, and allows it to function better outside of Rain. Really though if you start running protect, it just becomes standard Wish Vaporeon with Hydration in place of Water Absorb.

    Again, you're underestimating the extreme potentially of Hydra-Rest. With the spread I've given above, Vaporeon ALREADY takes physical hits like a boss even without Acid Armour. Rest is what allows it to tank physical attackers it ordinarily would not be able to.

    I must stress, with hydra-rest Vaproen becomes an entirely different beast. It's amazing how many Pokemon it can beat that normal Wish/Protect variants can't.

    I'm not opposed to simply editing the current Wish Vaporeon to include a bit about having Hydration, and renaming this set something along the lines of "Hydra-rest" or something, to better convey that this is entirely different from simply having a status immune Vaporeon.

    EDIT: Ah, nvm @chanazn, I see you get the idea that Wish is not necessary on Hydra-rest Vaporeon. Acid armour is definately a viable option which is why I have it listed, but it almost functions as a different set itself, filling a different purpose. One allows for better walling, one for more support. Still, I don't feel they're distinct enough to each have their own set section, so simply having Acid Armour slashed and a small bit explaining how to alter Vaporeon to take advantage of it should be sufficient.
  5. Super Mario Bro

    Super Mario Bro All we ever look for

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    An AC mention for Protect is fine. Wish should really be the first slash in the last slot though (slash Roar in slot #3), and HP Grass should be taken off completely (too situational and Toxic screws with Gastrodon just as much).

    And yes I do know what I'm talking about, heh (I've tested this set a bunch in the past).
  6. Jimera0

    Jimera0 You don't understand, Edgar is the one in the hole!

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    You're probably right about HP grass now that I think of it, but I still insist that Rest is THE crux of this set and is non-replacable. Without it you completely lose the ability to wall a huge number of threats. If you're using wish on this Vaporeon, it's for team support only.

    I've also been using Vapreon for a very long time, so it might just be a matter of opinion. I still think that your use of Hydration is better presented as a simple / on the standard Wish Vaporeon already listed, as that's basically the only real difference between that and the current set. Wish without Protect OR Rest is pretty much completely non-viable (you lose the ability to wall almost everything that isn't defensive or resisted), so even suggesting having Wish without one of the other moves isn't a good idea.
  7. Super Mario Bro

    Super Mario Bro All we ever look for

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    The idea is that you can use both Wish AND Rest on the same set; Rest for awesome instant full heath recovery, and Wish to heal your teammates (which is, imo, too good to pass up considering Vap's HP is so high).
  8. Jimera0

    Jimera0 You don't understand, Edgar is the one in the hole!

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    I know, which is why I have Wish as an option lower down, showing that the two can be used together. The problem I have with is that you had Protect slashed with Rest in yours :P suggesting one would replace the other. If that's not what you meant then we actually are on the same page XD. Perhaps you just mean to put Wish as the first option on either move 3 or move 4, rather than a 2nd or 3rd option?

    In short, I think it was just a misunderstanding. After all, when I mentioned Protect shouldn't replace Rest you agreed with me more or less right? At that point we were on the same page, we just didn't realize it XD.
  9. Super Mario Bro

    Super Mario Bro All we ever look for

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    You misread my post then; I have Protect slashed in with Rest, not Wish. The set looks good, but I just think it would a good idea to consider switching some of the slashes around (look again at my first post in this thread to see what I would like).
  10. Jimera0

    Jimera0 You don't understand, Edgar is the one in the hole!

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    yeah rechecked and redited my post but got ninja'd by you.

    Anyway, enough about that. I'll put Wish in a higher priority spot than before, because you're right. I guess the only reason I don't use Wish on MY Vaporeon is I already have another capable wish passer and I really need the phazing. That being said, the phazing really is quite appreciated as there are a number of Pokemon that will gladly set up on this set otherwise.
  11. TheMagicStik

    TheMagicStik

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    I really dont see why this isnt already a set, its so useful, very hard to set up on, hydration with rest is just one of the best combos and combine that with Vaporeons massive special defense and hp and acid armor, its rediculously hard to kill or set up on unless you are thundurus.
  12. Princess Bubblegum

    Princess Bubblegum

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    I don't think Tentacruel is a good option as a toxic spiker for this Vaporeon. Basically, at that point it is Politoed + Vaporeon + Tentacruel, that is just asking for trouble. Instead, how about some other pokemon. I am completely theorymoning this, but how about Roserade as a partner? It complements Vaporeons typing well, and sets up toxic spikes.
  13. Jimera0

    Jimera0 You don't understand, Edgar is the one in the hole!

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    I think you misread what I posted there :P I never suggested Tentacruel as a teammate, I listed it as a switch in, since Tentacruel just loves to come in and set up toxic spikes or spin away your hazards while Vaporeon is completely unable to harm it.

    I have considered Roserade, as it provides a reliable counter to many Water types, including the ever-annoying Rotom-W. I might put it in as a favorable teammate, but only after I've had a couple people test it out or at least concur with the idea.
  14. Princess Bubblegum

    Princess Bubblegum

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    Wow derp. Well, atleast something good came out of that.
  15. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
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    Looks really solid, Hydration Vaporeon seems like a superb Wish passer.

    In Additional Comments, mention Baton Pass. The move lets you scout, and since Vaporeon is slow it allows it to absorb assaults and switch & heal recipient safely.

    I think Haze is worth a mention to screw with BP chain teams, last-mon Reuniclus, and Smash Passing.
  16. Jimera0

    Jimera0 You don't understand, Edgar is the one in the hole!

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    Baton Pass is certainly an interesting idea, one I hadn't considered. It's especially interesting since it's so much more viable with Hydra-Rest than it is with Vaporeon's other Wish sets due to the extra move slot.

    Haze on the other hand is very situational and I think only deserves a AC mention at best. Still, probably worth putting in the final product at least as a footnote, as there aren't that many viable hazers in OU.

    EDIT: Now that I think of it, Haze is actually an option almost on equal footing with the others, especially since you won't always have hazards up to take advantage of the shuffling. Issue is I'm totally running out of slashes for the last two spots, because Vaporeon just has so damn many options. Can you see why I love this thing? You can literally fit it onto any rain team and it'll do something useful.
  17. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
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    I personally think Wish should be the main set, and baton passing Acid Armor should be mentioned in AC, since I feel like Wish has more utility. You can also mention Work Up as another potential boost it can baton pass in the AC
  18. Jimera0

    Jimera0 You don't understand, Edgar is the one in the hole!

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    Wish is the primary support option already on the set I have listed, and I'll state it as such when I right the more detailed version. As for Baton Passing stat boosts, that really isn't the purpose of the set, not to mention that a set that has rest, baton pass, wish and a stat boosting move is completely helpless against taunt, and actually can't do anything to the opponent, period. I guess that means that you have to use Baton pass either to pass boosts, or wishes, not both. Still, a brief AC mention shouldn't be an issue as long as it doesn't make the damn section too long. It's starting to look like Hydration Rest Vaporeon has so many options it's not practical to discuss them all. Perhaps just a catch all "try different and creative combinations" point would cover a lot of these things being suggested?

    And did you post that before or after our battle? XD Because now you've seen Vaporeon first hand.
  19. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
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    Before our battle :p

    Anyways, I'm suggesting exactly what you posted. Remove Acid Armor on the main set and just mention it, alongside Work Up, as passable boosts in the AC section. Vaporeon can't do all of them at once, so you would have to sacrifice Wish-Passing for the boosts. This is just my opinion to avoid clutter.
  20. AccidentalGreed

    AccidentalGreed "Smogon friends" is an oxymoron.
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    Yeah, this has a bad case of Slashitis, AKA set clutter. I would narrow this Vaporeon down to a few options and mention some "mentionable" options in the AC. I don't even think some of the options listed in the third and fourth slots are actually worth it.
  21. SJCrew

    SJCrew Believer, going on a journey...
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    This set would look a lot neater if merged with the one already onsite. All of the superfluous options removed, of course.

    Name: Tank
    move 1: Wish / Rest
    move 2: Scald
    move 3: Protect / Roar
    move 4: Toxic / Ice Beam
    item: Leftovers
    ability: Water Absorb / Hydration
    nature: Bold
    evs: 252 HP / 224 Def / 32 SpD
  22. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
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    That's certainly much cleaner. Hydra-Rest Vaporeon CAN pass Wishes effectively, though, which imo is a support role that a defensive Vaporeon should not miss out.
  23. Jimera0

    Jimera0 You don't understand, Edgar is the one in the hole!

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    I have a bit of an issue with this though since the two sets really DO not play much alike. At all. They have different EV spreads, different functions, different counters and different capabilities. If you've actually used both before, you know this lol. Additionally, it'd mean that a lot of very viable options would get left out in order to keep it concise. Baton pass and Acid Armour aren't even mentioned, and Acid Armour in particular requires additional explanation (It has an entirely different EV Spread and nature). Haze doesn't get a mention either.

    Bottom line is that if you try to cram everything BOTH defensive Vaporeon sets are capable of into one set, and you're going to leave a lot of important stuff out or make the article too long, particularly when it comes to to usage. Hydra-rest and Wish-Protect must be played very different from eachother, and putting it in one set suggests that they play the same... really is misleading.

    So while it might look neater at first glance, it ends up not serving the purpose it's supposed to. It would defeat the purpose of putting it in at all and likely lead to confusion.

    Going down the path Accidental Greed suggested seems much more reasonable to me. The additional options such as Acid Armour, Baton Pass and Haze can just get mentioned briefly in the AC or OO section.
  24. SJCrew

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    I went and looked at the Vaporeon analysis onsite just to see how a blended analysis would work. In my mind, Hydration would only be worth another paragraph. Vaporeon's duties as a wall are enhanced greatly with Hydration, but you're exaggerating its contrast with Wish support. It's still walling the same Pokemon with Hydration, and it wouldn't take very long to explain the benefits of an extra move you don't have to reserve for recovery.

    Either way, I'm not at all opposed to your method, just throwing the idea out there that we might be able to kill two birds with one stone: the abundance of slashes, and getting Hydration onsite. An OO mention really won't do at all.
  25. Jimera0

    Jimera0 You don't understand, Edgar is the one in the hole!

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    Well the thing is Hydration is already on site, it just doesn't get enough attention. What you're suggesting would not be much better than the tiny OO paragraph that is currently already up.

    I've dealt with the slashes simply by putting only the most common and useful options in the slashes, and I'll simply relegate the other options to AC, including a small section for Acid Armour since that's a bit more complex than the rest of the options. No more clutter see?

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