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Venomoth (Analysis)

Discussion in 'Locked / Outdated Analyses' started by Toaster, Nov 7, 2010.

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  1. Toaster

    Toaster

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    [​IMG]
    Venomoth
    ----
    Status: Gonna resume writing this up tomorrow. Overview+1 set and 25% of butterfly dance sweeper done.I am a fucking dumbass
    [Overview]

    <p> In the past, Venomoth has been often neglected in favor of its fellow bug types. Particularely Yanmega. It is safe to say however that the advent of the 5th generation has been very kind to it coutersy of the introduction to Butterfly Dance, arguably the best boosting move in the game. In combination with a suprisingly healthly amount of support options, Baton Pass, decent offensive stats, and more importantly, the ability to use Tinted Lens in combination with it, Venomoth can become a devestating threat that can turn the tides of the game if played correctly. </p>

    <p> However, that is not so to say Venomoth lacks flaws either. The massive increase of the average power level in this new generation has left Venomoth's offenive stats be considered underwhelming. In addition of some of its fellow bugs, Venomoth faces particularely severe competiton with Urgamosu who sports better stats and a larger movepool by far. That said, in order to use Venomoth at it's fullest one must take advantage of its advantages over others such as it being among the only who can baton pass Butterfly Dance and a less severe weakness to entry hazards than most. </p>

    [SET]
    name: Baton Passer
    move 1: Baton Pass
    move 2: Butterfly Dance
    move 3: Sleep Powder
    move 4: Bug Buzz
    item: Leftovers
    ability: Tinted Lens
    nature: Timid
    evs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p> With the introduction of Butterfly Dance in it's movepool, Venomoth now has the ability to baton pass the destructive boosts Butterfly Dance provides to another pokemon. Access to moves such as Sleep Powder allows it to successfuly gain atleast one boost as well, crippling the pokemon in the process. Despite the minimal EV investment, Venomoth can hit hit hard against certain pokemon that have the ability to trouble it, such as Boturusu and Eruffun. This is aided futhure by Butterfly Dance and Tinted Lens. The latter making the lack of coverage in this set a relative non-issue. </p>

    <p> Sleep Powder is crucial to this set's success as it allows it to gurentee a boost and thus a possible free pass. Bug Buzz acts as its obgilatory STAB and allows it to defeat Eruffun and occasionaly Botorusu. An offensive EV spread may be utlized over the current spread listed, but Venomoth's purpose is mainly focused on Baton Passing and thus, in most situations usully do not require additional power to suceed in his goal. Similarely, Life Orb is mostly not recommened over Leftovers for the same reasons.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p> Most specially based pokemon, particularely slow pokemon who are often halted due to their low speed, greatly appreciates the boosts provided from Venomoth and thus, are typical recipients for Venomoth. In addition, pokemon such as Heatran or Magnezone not only are good recipients but can also take the majority of attacks aimed at Venomoth and safely sweep at their leisure. The former also gaining a additional boost from Fire-type attacks as well. Pokemon who can get rid of priority users are, too, a great aid for both the recipient and Venomoth in general. As this minimizes the risk of being revenge killed by certain pokemon. </p>

    <p> Being a baton passer, there are no true counters for Venomoth, particularely with Sleep Powder allowing it to cripple and thwart most attempts of stopping it. Priority however, bypasses the boost provided from Butterfly Dance and can somewhat damage Venomoth. In addition, Pokemon such as Eruffun or Boroutorusu ignores any factor in speed and Taunts Venomoth, preventing it from baton passing. Although both will not really enjoy a Bug buzz from Venomoth, particularely the former and assuming if Venomoth has gained one boost under its belt. </p>



    [SET]
    name: Butterfly Dance Sweeper
    move 1: Butterfly Dance
    move 2: Sleep Powder
    move 3: Bug Buzz
    move 4: Hidden Power Ground / Psychic
    item: Life Orb
    ability: Tinted Lens
    nature: Timid
    evs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p> This Venomoth takes the most advantages over its offenses and its fellow rivals such as Urgamosu, and turns into a potentially devestating threat if taken lightly. Due to Sleep Powder, most incoming switchins are forced to remain useless for the majority for the battle and at the same time grants Venomoth to get a boost and ultametively sweeping. Tinted Lens eliminates the lack of coverage that this set holds and sharply lowers the number of viable switch ins against Venomoth's devestating power. </p>

    <p> The choice in the last slot is highly based on what do you want Venomoth to hit. Hidden Power Ground is Venomoth's best attack against Heatran whom acts as a full stop to this set. Psychic grants perfect neutral coverage alongside Bug Buzz factoring in Tinted Lens, and also provides an Attack to hit Skarmory. Hidden Power Fire or Rock are more usable options against the aforimental pokemon, it should be noted however that the former also decreases Venomoth's speed and special attack. Due to the fact Venomoth can attain more special bulk and thus manage easier against specially biased pokemon, Leftovers is by no means a bad option either. </p>


    Teammates and Counters:

    • Pokemon that can take down certain Steel-types can be a welcoming aid for Venomoth. Such as Heatran
    • Tyranitar has decent synergy with Venomoth and can take down most of Venomoth's counters. Sandstorm will take its toll on Venomoth, though.
    • A Specially Defensive Skarmory can easily wall most of Venomoth's moveset with ease, and can proceed to whirlwind it out or take its time to set up spikes.
    • Bilssey or Chansey has no problems walling it out either.
    • Heatran holding a balloon can dispatch Venomoth provided it doesn't switch into an attack which shall pop the balloon.
    • Venomoth's damage output, while respectable, isn't strong enough to do really major damage. Take note of that as well


    [Team Options]

    • As a mainly offensive pokemon, Venomoth appreciates the aid of entry hazards... and the spinning of it from its side as well.
    • Water Pokemon are valuable assists as they all take common attacks aimed at Venomoth while Venomoth dispatches the Grass types that threaten them.
    • While sandstorm is bothersome, Tyranitar can synergize with Venomoth decently, can can take down most of Venomoth's counters.


    [Optional Changes]

    • Sludge Bomb can be utilized as Venomoth's secondary STAB.
    • Venomoth has a surprisingly decent amount of support options, and can run a support set. But Venomoth is just too frail to make effective use of it.
    • Due to decent offensive stats and Tinted Lens, one can consider a Choice Specs set. But Yanmega makes better use of it.

    [Counters]

    • Because of the potential risk of being slept, Venomoth is surprisingly annoying to counter. Once Sleep Clause is in effect though, countering Venomoth becomes far easier.
    • Bilssey and Chansey are all full stops for Venomoth and can take any attack that Venomoth can throw at it. It cannot prevent it from Baton Passing, though.
    • A Specially Defensive Skarmory not only walls most of Venomoth's moveset, but can whirlwind Venomoth.
    • Unless its running Hidden Power Ground, Heatran should handle it well.
    • While they aren't counters by any means, Boutorosu and Errufun can prevent any attempts of Baton Passing.

    [Dream World]

    • Venomoth gets Miracle Skin from the Dream World
    • Rather situational, although halving chance of paralysis from common serene gracers (Such as Body Slam Jirachi) is favorable.
  2. Toaster

    Toaster

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    Gonna give this a big fat bump to say that this needs to be checked up before being written. Feedback is appreciated as usual.
  3. junkship

    junkship

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    252 HP / 252 Spe @ Timid spread also works on Baton Passer, since it lets you set up on ALL the common bulky waters in OU (Burungeru, Vaporeon, Tentacruel, Mamanbou). If they waste a turn attacking, you get the second dance that lets you outspeed everything and pass a +2/+2 boost to your sweeper of choice.
  4. Banryu

    Banryu

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    I'd just like to point out, Bug Buzz + Psychic actually hit all Pokemon neutral with Tinted Lens factored in. Psychic should be main, if not only, option in the fourth slot of the sweeper set. Otherwise, looks great.

    EDIT: Actually, I'd rather have Lefties on the BD sweeper. Since it basically plays like a fast CM sweeper, chances that it's going to take a strong hit or two during setup are quite good, and I think the recovery you get during the turns Dancing or Sleep Powdering is going to make it much more effective at sweeping than extra power from LO is. (BD boosts get you enough power in the meantime anyway).
  5. Togekissfan

    Togekissfan

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    Not really what i call a sweeper set. Giga Drain increases to 75 base power for the new generation, so that's a consideration. Also, Energy Ball is a nice coverage move that targets Water-types that might give you trouble. Above all, not including Roost in the Baton Pass moveset is pretty pitiful. Venomoth can have a moveset including Roost/Hidden Power Rock/Butterfly Dance/Bug Buzz with a timid nature and Max Speed IV and EVs to counter Ulgamoth. (Your movesets are pretty good, though.) May I suggest... a Life Orb set with 3 attacks and Butterfly Dance?
  6. chocolate-kipp

    chocolate-kipp

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    It already has a Butterfly Dance set, and it doesn't need three attacks since it'll be neutral on anything either way.
  7. Forte.EXE

    Forte.EXE

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    Encourage Nidoking should be mentioned as a teammate for Baton Pass Venomoth. Encourage + Life Orb + a boost in SpA, SpD, and Spe is insane, and can easily sweep teams.

    A Dual Screener should be mentioned too.
  8. Toaster

    Toaster

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    @togekissfan: In addition to what chocolate-kipp said, I don't really see how Roost is any useful on the Baton Passer particularly with the given spread( I suppose it can still survive certain special attacks though). You don't really have the time to use roost either where your main goal is to boost and get the hell out of here with Baton Pass to another sweeper who benefits from it. I can consider it for an AC mention alongside the bulkier spread but eh..

    And what exactly is Energy Ball / Giga Drain hitting that STAB Bug Buzz factoring in Tinted Lens already doesn't? (Aside from lol x4 weak mons that you rarely see outside of DW where theres unaware quagsire to bring up). The latter is pretty arguable due to the recovery though but the majority of times I'd rather have full neutral coverage / ability to hit stuff that Bug Buzz can't.

    That aside, I've updated the skeleton with most of the given suggestions.
  9. Calm Pokemaster

    Calm Pokemaster
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    Emphasise the fact that Venomoth's main advantage over Urugamosu is the abscence of that 4* SR weakness, Sleep Powder and Baton Pass somewhere in the analysis, and that it should not be used as an inferior Urugamosu.

    You misspelt Borutorosu in in the [Counters] section. Correct the several grammatical mistakes as well.

    Otherwise, this is a great analysis. Good luck for QC and GP checks toasty.
  10. PooF

    PooF

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    Just a minor nitpick, but Smeargle can also baton pass it.
  11. rh2012

    rh2012

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    [Counters]

    • Because of the potential risk of being slept, Venomoth is surprisingly annoying to counter. Once Sleep Clause is in effect though, countering Venomoth becomes far easier.
    • Bilssey and Chansey are all full stops for Venomoth and can take any attack that Venomoth can throw at it. It cannot prevent it from Baton Passing, though.
    • A Specially Defensive Skarmory not only walls most of Venomoth's moveset, but can whirlwind Venomoth.
    • Unless its not running Hidden Power Ground, Heatran should handle it well.
    • While they aren't counters by any means, Boutorosu and Errufun can prevent any attempts of Baton Passing.
    Sorry, just a nit-pick. It should be read: "Unless it is running Hidden Power Ground..."
  12. Raysa221

    Raysa221

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    masquerain can also baton pass butterfly dance, although inferior to venomoth.
  13. Iconic

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    QC Approved 1/2
  14. RaikouLover

    RaikouLover

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    Bad EV spread, your not sweeping. I would put all the Special Attack into HP at the very least.
  15. Darkamber8828

    Darkamber8828

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    Uh...isn't it the only Toxic Spiker bar Smeargle and Roserade with a sleep move? Different typing (that lets it absorb Tspikes), speed, Tinted Buzz, U-turn, and the fact that people may think it's a Butterfly Dancer make it a pokemon to consider. Smeargle's slower and less bulky and fighting weak and offensively-weak, Roserade has bad coverage and sucks worse offensively after Leaf Storm.

    A lead bper isn't bad with a Focus Sash, right?
  16. Toaster

    Toaster

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    I have no objections reconsidering the placement of the Toxic Spiker Venomoth. Although I'd do like to see more opinions regarding this. Personally I don't see how Focus Sash functions any better from the current baton passer. The lead spot is mostly non existent now with team preview. Venomoth is likely to get one Butterfly Dance anyway due to the fact most "leads" are unable to kill or are slept.

    Aside from that, most other minor fixes and changes have been added to the analysis.
  17. panamaxis

    panamaxis Allons-y!
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    looks good 2/2
  18. RaikouLover

    RaikouLover

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    Toxic Spiker Venomoth is identical to Toxic Spiker Roserade (same base speed) and actually slightly bulkier, albeit weather (Tinted Lens makes up for that somewhat). It should be up there.
  19. anubite

    anubite

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    Sorry for bumping such an "ancient" thread.

    I have a lot of experience with Venomoth. I've used it in OU Shoddy for a while now, and have been experimenting with it in GenV.

    Venomoth cannot spec defensively in OU (that means, nothing in HP/Def/SpD). He is OHKO'd by just about every pokemon that has a super effective move against him, and is 2HKO'd by most neutral moves on pokemon with more than 85 base offensive stat. He is also quite vulnerable when switching in on hazards and weather, which can make his measly HP drop to nothing quite quickly.

    Venomoth needs to spec offensively. He cannot take Toxic Spikes. It's unfeasible. Sleep Powder, with a sleep clause, is not reliable (especially considering accuracy), since anyone can switch in on Venomoth afterward and kill it. You will be getting 1 toxic spikes off, which as about as many toxic spikes as most toxic spikes users can get off anyway, Venomoth is not special enough to warrant the move.

    Sleep Powder is an okay move, but if you intend to utilize Butterfly dance, you need to realize that Venomoth is incredibly frail with only a mediocre typing. It is good to compare him to other tinted lens users and butterfly dance users (especially Yanmega, who was basically Venomoth minus Sleep Powder +better base SpA and Spe pre-GenV). Venomoth only outclasses those other pokemon in terms of movepool and ability (tinted lens) not in stats or sweeping potential. Sleep Powder is a gamble, and as I've already mentioned, easy to deal with.

    If Venomoth is to be used seriously in OU, it needs to come in at the perfect moment, it can't rely on putting something to sleep itself. Once you have two butterfly dances, with 252 SpA and 252 Spe (with either modest or timid nature, it doesn't matter, though timid is much better for getting butterfly dances off) you can deal with most pokemon with:

    Bug Buzz - Venomoth needs this no matter how you choose to build him.
    Energy Ball (or Giga Drain now - with its base power increase, though honestly no amount of healing is going to save Venomoth from a priority attacker like Scissor) - A key move that covers many potential worries to Venomoth, such as bulky waters
    HP Ground or HP Ice - HP Ground is absolutely necessary on Venomoth in order to deal with Heatran, it is the only ability which will kill Heatran in one hit (necessary because no matter what, Heatran will OHKO Venomoth unless you have 2 or more dances on already) and even so - a defensive specced Heatran, or a Heatran carrying a ground-weakening berry can survive one HP ground from a 1.5-2x special attack modest Venomoth (you know this from playing with choice specs Venomoth for so long); HP Ice if you fear certain flying types or dragons more, though Heatran should be your number one concern as a Venomoth user in OU
    Butterfly Dance

    Psychic is worthy of consideration, as is the new Venom Shock, however, coverage on counters is much more important on Venomoth than offensive coverage or damage output. Sludge Bomb should not ever be considered.

    For a butterfly dance venomoth, focus sash is probably most preferred, though life orb is not a bad consideration if you dislike using focus sashes. Again though, Venomoth shouldn't be used like Ulgamoth - HP rock/bugbuzz/butterfly dance/roost can all be used that pokemon as well, for probably a greater effect. I don't see Venomoth as a good counter to Volcarona - unless you have ESP and know to send him out just as your opponent sends out his Ulgamoth (otherwise the Volcarona will just have a dance advantage and OHKO Venomoth).

    Baton Pass is an excellent consideration, though as with all baton passing pokemon, a tricky move to pull off. Mostly because a Venomoth used in OU will be quite easy to read. You need a minimum of two turns to pull of a baton pass and 1 dance. Venomoth is not very fast, even with a timid nature, so it is possible to switch in and taunt him (I believe a +speed crobat could still outspeed him and taunt, and an aerodactyl or electrode too). Whirlwind is of course, another obvious counter. Whether you intend to baton pass or not, the fact you will be using butterfly dance is enough that anyone worth their salt will switch in their taunter or WWer to deal with your stat boosting. It is only in a situation like that, when sleep powder is truly a powerful move to have on Venomoth.

    Although Butterfly dance does increase special defense, I don't believe Venomoth should be treated as though he can absorb much special damage. He has low base special defense, and he can't afford to put EVs in it to improve it (or his horrible base defense) because he needs speed and special attack to be worthwhile. I've tried building bulky Venomoths in the past, and they don't survive any longer than completely offensive Venomoths.

    And to really stress: Even if you get 3+ butterfly dances off, I'd be pretty wary of Scizors and other priority attackers. Venomoth really has little base defense and HP. There's really nothing you can do against them, though my team generally counters these pokemon well enough I don't worry about them (but in a vacuum, Venomoth is quite weak to them). This is again, why I would not recommended Roost or Giga Drain on Venomoth.

    Sorry for this ramble, hope it's useful criticism.
  20. conway

    conway

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    You say that Miracle skin has some use because it halves the chance of paralysis caused by common Serence Gracers. i can't agree on this one, because Shield Dust blocks the chance of paralysis by common Serence Gracers by 100%.
  21. anubite

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    Yeah, I don't see why they gave Venomoth Miracle Skin. Shield Dust makes Venomoth immune to flinch/paralyze/poison/burn from attacks. Miracle Skin only helps weaken status from moves that only cause status.

    A Shield Dust Venomoth with 252 HP/252 Spe, Roost, Butterfly Dance, Sleep Powder, etc. would make the most sense, though I don't think it's feasible OU. Venomoth isn't afraid of status, he doesn't live long enough to really care about them.
  22. Showsni

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    For the Baton Passer, I'd rather use Shield Dust than Tinted Lens. If you're not staying in to sweep anyway the extra power is worthless, but the protection from flinching, paralysis, freezing etc. could be vital. I run max Defence and HP on mine (with screen support), and being able to set up on stuff like Iron Head Jirachi is occasionally great. Most priority moves are physical, too, which is why I prefer defence to speed.
  23. Aerodactyl Legend

    Aerodactyl Legend

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    I think no ability should be specified on the set and it should be left to personal preference. Shield Dust would look like the ability to go with since it's focused on defense, but if Venomoth ever needs to attack itself, Tinted Lens is useful because Bug Buzz is your only move.

    *Edit*

    I forgot about Miracle Skin. If it works like the post below describes it, then could it be viable for the set as well?
  24. Torchic

    Torchic

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    You made wrong explaination on Miracle Skin.
    Miracle Skin made your foe's non-damage move aim at you fall 50% of its accuracy.
    For instance, if they taunt on your Miracle Skin Venomoth, taunt's accuracy become 50%.
    I have already tested it.
  25. Bloo

    Bloo
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    This was taken over by Mooo here, so I'm moving this to L&O.
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