Venomoth [QC 3/3] [GP 2/2]

Discussion in 'Uploaded Analyses' started by kokoloko, Jan 12, 2013.

  1. kokoloko

    kokoloko I fill the bag.
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    [Overview]

    <p>Despite its BL2 status, Venomoth is an extremely potent Pokemon when used correctly. It's often thought that Venomoth is a high-risk / high-reward Pokemon, but this isn't exactly the case, as it's more along the lines of a mid-risk / very high reward. It doesn't need in-battle support to work properly, just the right teammates so it can support them instead. And while it will absolutely wreck you if you underestimate it, don't overestimate it either, because it isn't all that easy to use due to its lack of bulk, which makes it hard to set up and restricts teammate options.</p>

    [SET]
    name: QuiverPass
    move 1: Quiver Dance
    move 2: Baton Pass
    move 3: Sleep Powder
    move 4: Bug Buzz
    item: Black Sludge
    ability: Wonder Skin
    nature: Timid
    evs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>This set is meant to set up as many Quiver Dances as possible and then Baton Pass to a teammate to have them sweep. Sleep Powder makes this pretty easy, but be sure to not use it too early, or you might find it hard to get the actual pass off. The ideal situation to set up is when your opponent is in a situation where he can't hurt Venomoth (such as being Choice-locked into a Fighting-type attack or having a weak wall out), Quiver Dance on the switch (unless they have a faster Choice Scarf user, in which case you will need to predict a bit), then use Sleep Powder or Quiver Dance, depending on what came out, then Sleep Powder or Baton Pass. Don't get too greedy though, as a short sleep will mess up the strategy. You should be using Baton Pass right after Sleep Powder most of the time so as to maximize your chances of getting a successful pass off. Bug Buzz is mostly useful when Venomoth is up against a Roar user and has already used Sleep Powder. Wonder Skin will let it avoid Roar 50% of the time, so it has a good chance of outright beating them and then passing.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p> The EVs maximize Speed and bulk to make setting up as easy as possible. Lowering the Speed might seem tempting, but you definitely don't want to go below 216 EVs (which beats Heracross), and you won't get much mileage out of the EVs you save anyway, rendering that option pointless. There is not much else you can change on this set without changing its actual purpose, really. Substitute over Bug Buzz gives you protection from weaker Dragon Tail users, such as Blastoise and Slowking. Using Tinted Lens with Special Attack EVs lets Venomoth attempt a sweep itself, but Venomoth is usually just better off Baton Passing to the appropriate teammate and Wonder Skin is too good to pass up.</p>

    <p>Speaking of teammates, this is the most important thing when considering Venomoth for your team. It's an amazing Pokemon, but it's not used very often because of how hard it is to fit into teams. The best QuiverPass receivers in the tier are easily Nidoqueen and Togekiss. The former is quite bulky, immune to Thunder Wave and Toxic, has amazing coverage, and does not care about the most common Choice Scarf user in the tier&mdash;Mienshao. The latter is also bulky, can boost its stats further with Nasty Plot, and&mdash;more importantly&mdash;can flinch its way past anything with a Speed boost. Special Kingdra is also worth mentioning, as it'll give you a receiver to pass to should your opponent send out a Fire-type Pokemon, which are common answers to Venomoth. Here's what's tricky, though: if you only have a couple of potential receivers, a lot of the time they will either be weakened from doing their other jobs (because you should not add Pokemon to your team for the sole purpose of receiving a QuiverPass), or they simply won't want to come out against whatever your opponent has out at the time. Because of this, it's recommended that if you're planning to use Venomoth, you should have a team that is composed of at least three, four, or even five special attackers. This is what makes Venomoth so hard to use effectively&mdash;you basically need to have built the perfect team for it to fit into.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>Venomoth can also take a slightly more offensive route and try to sweep itself by using Substitute over Baton Pass and Tinted Lens over Wonder Skin with either an offensive or defensive EV spread. An even more offensive set that takes full advantage of Tinted Lens with Life Orb and a fully offensive spread is possible, but you're usually better off using something else if that's the case, such as Lilligant or Rain Dance Kingdra, as Venomoth is usually a bit too weak to pull off sweeps this way. Another interesting option is Substitute / Disable / Quiver Dance / Bug Buzz with Tinted Lens, as this set will really mess with people who rely on Choice Scarf users to take on Venomoth.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>This part's really tricky. Between Sleep Powder and its ability to boost its Speed, there is almost no way of ensuring Venomoth won't get a successful pass off. The only 100% sure way of preventing Venomoth from doing its job is by carrying two Choice Scarf users faster than Venomoth that can OHKO it. That isn't what I'd call effective teambuilding, though. Usually you have to predict around the Sleep Powder, ensuring your faster Choice Scarf user isn't hit by it and can get in before Venomoth gets to +2. Examples of such Pokemon are Darmanitan, Victini, Mienshao (which risks missing with Stone Edge), and Flygon (which needs Stealth Rock to OHKO). You can also deal with it by predicting the thing what it's going to pass to and try to OHKO it on its way in, but this isn't exactly reliable.</p>

    <p>Other answers include Xatu, which bounces back Sleep Powder, has Psyshock to OHKO, and can Thunder Wave or U-turn out of the receiver as it comes in, giving you momentum. RestTalk Snorlax has a small chance to break up the play and doesn't really care about being asleep. Choice Band Sleep Talk Crobat is the perfect sleep absorber and can OHKO with either STAB move, but it's slower after a Quiver Dance and risks picking U-turn with Sleep Talk even if it somehow gets in before the Quiver Dance. The same goes with Choice Specs Sleep Talk Yanmega. Honestly, you're better off just discouraging Venomoth from setting up by playing smart and double switching a bit and/or hoping for a short sleep or Sleep Powder miss; that's how hard it is to stop Venomoth once it's in a position to set up.</p>
  2. Nas

    Nas you know my steez
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    For C&C, you should mention that Xatu is probably the safest switch into Venomoth because it bounces back Sleep Powder and forces the Baton Pass with Psyshock, allowing you to either U-Turn as it passes or cripple the switch-in with Thunder Wave. It's not perfect and requires some prediction, but it's about as close as you're going to come to actually "countering" Venomoth. Also, RestTalk Snorlax deserves a mention for having a decent chance of breaking up the play.
  3. cim

    cim happiness is such hard work
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    sleep talk specs yanmega should get some special mention for counters, 2/3rds of its moveset hits it SE and because of Tinted Lens there are few totally safe recipients. i don't think sleep talk heracross is reliable enough to win though...
  4. kokoloko

    kokoloko I fill the bag.
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  5. Nas

    Nas you know my steez
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    QC Approved 1/3
  6. PK Gaming

    PK Gaming The truth is in my hands
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    QC APPROVED (2/3)
  7. kokoloko

    kokoloko I fill the bag.
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    only took like a month and a half to get a second stamp cool

    i'm firing you all for XY js
  8. FlareBlitz

    FlareBlitz This was never a story that would have a happy end
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    Koffing 3/3

    Also if koko if you're in charge of anything except the contents of your own bellybutton by the time x/y rolls around I'll quit myself <3
  9. Nas

    Nas you know my steez
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    This has to be written before it gets a third check you dumb.

    also i'll be in charge of uu for XY, koko will be my secretary.
  10. kokoloko

    kokoloko I fill the bag.
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    ok flare you can stamp it now
  11. DestinyUnknown

    DestinyUnknown An obsession with the past is like a dead fly
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    QC Approved 3/3


    k yeah that was bad
  12. cbt

    cbt
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    Amateur check

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    [Overview]

    <p>Despite its BL2 status, Venomoth is an extremely potent Pokemon when used correctly. It's often thought that Venomoth is a high-risk / high-reward Pokemon, but this isn't exactly the case, as its more along the lines of a mid-risk / very high reward. It doesn't need in-battle support to work properly, just the right teammates so it can support them instead. And while it will absolutely wreck you if you underestimate it, you shouldn't don't overestimate it either, because it isn't all that easy to use due to its lack of bulk, making it hard to set up and the very restricting teammate options.</p>

    [SET]
    name: QuiverPass
    move 1: Quiver Dance
    move 2: Baton Pass
    move 3: Sleep Powder
    move 4: Bug Buzz
    item: Black Sludge
    ability: Wonder Skin
    nature: Timid
    evs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>This set is meant to set up as many Quiver Dances as possible and then Baton Pass to a teammate to have them sweep. Sleep Powder makes this pretty easy, but be sure to not use it too early, or you might find it hard to get the actual pass off. The ideal situation to set up is when your opponent is in a situation where he can't hurt Venomoth (such as being locked into a Choiced Fighting-type attack or having a weak wall out), Quiver Dance on the switch (unless they have a faster Choice Scarf user, in which case you will need to predict a bit), then use Sleep Powder or Quiver Dance, depending on what came out, then Sleep Powder or Baton Pass. Don't get too greedy though, as a short Sleep will mess up the strategy. You should be using Baton Pass right after Sleep Powder most of the time, as to maximize your chances of getting a successful pass off. Bug Buzz is mostly useful when you're up against a Roar user and you've already used Sleep Powder. Wonder Skin will let you avoid Roar 50% of the time, so you have a good chance of outright beating them, and then passing.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p> The EVs maximize Speed and bulk to make setting up as easy as possible. Lowering the Speed might seem tempting, but you definitely don't want to go below 216 EVs (beats Heracross), so you won't get much mileage out of the EVs you save, rendering that option pointless. NThere is not much else you can do change on this set without changing its actual purpose, really. Substitute over Bug Buzz gives you protection from weaker Dragon Tail users, such as Blastoise and Slowking. While uUsing Tinted Lens with SpA EVs lets Venomoth attempt a sweep itself, but it's usually just better off Baton Passing to the appropriate teammate and Wonder Skin is usually too good to pass up.</p>

    <p>Speaking of teammates, this is the most important thing when considering Venomoth for your team. It's an amazing Pokemon, but it's not used very often because of how hard it is to fit into teams. The best QuiverPass receivers in the tier are easily Nidoqueen and Togekiss. The former is rellyquite bulky, immune to Thunder Wave and Toxic, has amazing coverage, and does not care about the most common Choice Scarf user in the tier--Mienshao. The latter is incredibly also bulky, can boost its stats further with Nasty Plot, and--more importantly--can simply flinch its way past anything with a Speed boost. Special Kingdra is also worth mentioning, as it'll give you a receiver to pass to should your opponent send out a Fire-type Pokemon, which are common answers to Venomoth. Here's what's tricky, though: if you only have a couple of potential receivers, a lot of the time, they will either be weakened from doing their other jobs (because you should not add Pokemon to your team for the sole purpose of receiving a Baton Pass), or they simply won't want to come out against whatever your opponent has out at the time. Because of this, it's recommended that, if you're planning to use Venomoth, you should have a team that is composed of at least three, four, or even solely special attackers. This is what makes Venomoth so hard to use effectively--you basically need to have built the perfect team for it to fit into.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>Venomoth can also take a slightly more offensive route and try to sweep itself by using Substitute over Baton Pass and Tinted Lens over Wonder Skin with either an offensive or defensive EV spread. An even more offensive set that takes full advantage of Tinted Lens with carries Life Orb and a fully offensive spread can be used, but you're usually better off using something else in this case, as Venomoth is usually a bit too weak to pull off sweeps this way. Another interesting option is Substitute / Disable / Quiver Dance / Bug Buzz with Tinted Lens, as this set will really mess with people who rely on Choice Scarf users to take on Venomoth.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>This part's really tricky. Between Sleep Powder and its ability yto boost its Speed, there is almost no way of ensuring Venomoth won't get a successful pass off. The only 100% sure way of preventing Venomoth from doing its job is by carrying two Choice Scarf users that can OHKO it and are faster than it. That isn't what I'd call effective teambuilding, though. Usually you have to predict around the Sleep Powder, ensuring your faster Choice Scarf user isn't hit by it and can get in before Venomoth gets to +2. Examples of thisuch Pokemon are Darmanitan, Victini, Mienshao (who risks missing with Stone Edge), and Flygon (who needs Stealth Rock to OHKO). You can also deal with it by predicting the thing its going to pass to and try to OHKO it on its way in, but this isn't exactly reliable.</p>

    <p>Other answers include Xatu, which bounces back Sleep Powder, has Psyshock to OHKO, and can Thunder Wave or U-turn out of the receiver as it comes in, giving you momentum. RestTalk Snorlax has a small chance to break up the play and "doesn't care" about being asleep. Choice Band Sleep Talk Crobat is the perfect Sleep absorber and can OHKO with either STAB move, but its slower after a Quiver Dance and risks picking U-turn with Sleep Talk even if it somehow gets in before the Quiver Dance. Same goes with Choice Specs Sleep Talk Yanmega. Honestly, you're better off just discouraging it from setting up by playing smart and double switching a bit and/or hoping for a short sleep or Sleep Powder miss. That's how hard it is to stop Venomoth once its in a position to set up.</p>
  13. GatoDelFuego

    GatoDelFuego Guys. The thermal drill. Go get it
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    REMOVE CHANGE COMMENTS

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    [Overview]

    <p>Despite its BL2 status, Venomoth is an extremely potent Pokemon when used correctly. It's often thought that Venomoth is a high-risk / high-reward Pokemon, but this isn't exactly the case, as it's more along the lines of a mid-risk / very high reward. It doesn't need in-battle support to work properly, just the right teammates so it can support them instead. And while it will absolutely wreck you if you underestimate it, don't overestimate it either, because it isn't all that easy to use due to its lack of bulk, making it hard to set up and the very restricting teammate options.</p>

    [SET]
    name: QuiverPass
    move 1: Quiver Dance
    move 2: Baton Pass
    move 3: Sleep Powder
    move 4: Bug Buzz
    item: Black Sludge
    ability: Wonder Skin
    nature: Timid
    evs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>This set is meant to set up as many Quiver Dances as possible and then Baton Pass to a teammate to have them sweep. Sleep Powder makes this pretty easy, but be sure to not use it too early, or you might find it hard to get the actual pass off. The ideal situation to set up is when your opponent is in a situation where he can't hurt Venomoth (such as being Choice-locked into a Choiced Fighting-type attack or having a weak wall out), Quiver Dance on the switch (unless they have a faster Choice Scarf user, in which case you will need to predict a bit), then use Sleep Powder or Quiver Dance, depending on what came out, then Sleep Powder or Baton Pass. Don't get too greedy though, as a short Sleep will mess up the strategy. You should be using Baton Pass right after Sleep Powder most of the time, (RC) as to maximize your chances of getting a successful pass off. Bug Buzz is mostly useful when you're up against a Roar user and you've already used Sleep Powder. Wonder Skin will let you avoid Roar 50% of the time, so you have a good chance of outright beating them, (RC) and then passing.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p> The EVs maximize aSpeed and bulk to make setting up as easy as possible. Lowering the Speed might seem tempting, but you definitely don't want to go below 216 EVs (which beats Heracross), so and you won't get much mileage out of the EVs you save anyway, rendering that option pointless. There is not much else you can change on this set without changing its actual purpose, really. Substitute over Bug Buzz gives you protection from weaker Dragon Tail users, such as Blastoise and Slowking. Using Tinted Lens with Special Attack EVs lets Venomoth attempt a sweep itself, but it's Venomoth is usually just better off Baton Passing to the appropriate teammate and Wonder Skin is usually too good to pass up.</p>

    <p>Speaking of teammates, this is the most important thing when considering Venomoth for your team. It's an amazing Pokemon, but it's not used very often because of how hard it is to fit into teams. The best QuiverPass receivers in the tier are easily Nidoqueen and Togekiss. The former is quite bulky, immune to Thunder Wave and Toxic, has amazing coverage, and does not care about the most common Choice Scarf user in the tier&mdash;Mienshao. The latter is also bulky, can boost its stats further with Nasty Plot, and&mdash;more importantly&mdash;can simply flinch its way past anything with a Speed boost. Special Kingdra is also worth mentioning, as it'll give you a receiver to pass to should your opponent send out a Fire-type Pokemon, which are common answers to Venomoth. Here's what's tricky, though: if you only have a couple of potential receivers, a lot of the time, (RC) they will either be weakened from doing their other jobs (because you should not add Pokemon to your team for the sole purpose of receiving a QuiverPass), or they simply won't want to come out against whatever your opponent has out at the time. Because of this, it's recommended that if you're planning to use Venomoth, you should have a team that is composed of at least three, four, or even five solely special attackers. This is what makes Venomoth so hard to use effectively&mdash;you basically need to have built the perfect team for it to fit into.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>Venomoth can also take a slightly more offensive route and try to sweep itself by using Substitute over Baton Pass and Tinted Lens over Wonder Skin with either an offensive or defensive EV spread. An even more offensive set that takes full advantage of Tinted Lens with carries Life Orb and a fully offensive spread can be used, but you're usually better off using something else in this case Mention what is better than Venomoth here as a special sweeper, as Venomoth is usually a bit too weak to pull off sweeps this way. Another interesting option is Substitute / Disable / Quiver Dance / Bug Buzz with Tinted Lens, as this set will really mess with people who rely on Choice Scarf users to take on Venomoth.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>This part's really tricky. Between Sleep Powder and its ability to boost its Speed, there is almost no way of ensuring Venomoth won't get a successful pass off. The only 100% sure way of preventing Venomoth from doing its job is by carrying two Choice Scarf users faster than Venomoth that can OHKO it and are faster than it. That isn't what I'd call effective teambuilding, though. Usually you have to predict around the Sleep Powder, ensuring your faster Choice Scarf user isn't hit by it and can get in before Venomoth gets to +2. Examples of such Pokemon are Darmanitan, Victini, Mienshao (who which risks missing with Stone Edge), and Flygon (who which needs Stealth Rock to OHKO). You can also deal with it by predicting the thing what it's going to pass to and try to OHKO it on its way in, but this isn't exactly reliable.</p>

    <p>Other answers include Xatu, which bounces back Sleep Powder, has Psyshock to OHKO, and can Thunder Wave or U-turn out of the receiver as it comes in, giving you momentum. RestTalk Snorlax has a small chance to break up the play and "doesn't really care" about being asleep. Choice Band Sleep Talk Crobat is the perfect sleep absorber and can OHKO with either STAB move, but it's slower after a Quiver Dance and risks picking U-turn with Sleep Talk even if it somehow gets in before the Quiver Dance. The same goes with Choice Specs Sleep Talk Yanmega. Honestly, you're better off just discouraging it Venomoth from setting up by playing smart and double switching a bit and/or hoping for a short sleep or Sleep Powder miss; that's how hard it is to stop Venomoth once it's in a position to set up.</p>


    80% of what I changed were subjunctive, stamping CBT

    [gp]1/2[/gp]
  14. kokoloko

    kokoloko I fill the bag.
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    UGH i'd implement this now but i am too lazy to do it without a c/p version; i'll do it tomorrow

    what a good C&C leader i am
  15. FlareBlitz

    FlareBlitz This was never a story that would have a happy end
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    Fuck yeah

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  16. kokoloko

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    implemented gp 1
  17. sirndpt

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    2/2

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