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Venusaur (Analysis)

Discussion in 'Locked / Outdated Analyses' started by Calm Pokemaster, May 28, 2011.

  1. Calm Pokemaster

    Calm Pokemaster
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    Taking over from drcossack. The old thread got through QC so this can straightaway be put in Copyediting.

    =============================================
    [​IMG]
    Venusaur
    [​IMG][​IMG]

    Status: Ready for GP Checks
    =============================================
    [Overview]
    <p>Venusaur hit the jackpot in BW as it received Chlorophyll from the Dream World, making it a dangerous offensive threat under the sun even in Ubers. Growth also provides a +2 boost to both Attack and Special Attack in sunlight, which means Venusaur's offensive stats skyrocket over 500 with just one use of Growth. With Groudon reliably providing everlasting sunlight, all Venusaur needs is one turn of setup, and it can then wreak havoc with its boosted attacks. Access to Sleep Powder sets Venusaur apart from other Chlorophyll users such as Shiftry, as it makes it much easier for Venusaur to set up. Venusaur's Poison typing also allows it to absorb Toxic Spikes, helping it support the rest of its team in addition to maintaining a strong offensive presence. Unfortunately, all is not sunshine for our giant plant monster, as weather changers are prominent in Ubers and can remove Venusaur's valuable sunlight in a flash. Venusaur's offensive stats are simply not good enough for it to significantly damage titanic walls such as Lugia and Giratina. Its STAB attacks are also resisted by common Dragon- and Steel-type Pokemon, who can sponge even its boosted hits with ease. Despite these flaws, Venusaur is not to be underestimated, as with the proper support, it can mow through entire teams with ease.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Swords Dance
    move 1: Swords Dance
    move 2: Sleep Powder
    move 3: Seed Bomb
    move 4: Earthquake
    item: Life Orb
    evs: 40 HP / 252 Atk / 216 Spe
    ability: Chlorophyll
    nature: Adamant

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>With a powerful STAB Seed Bomb, Earthquake to hit the grounded Steel-types who sponge its STAB attacks, and Sleep Powder to incapacitate the opponent and make setting up very easy, Venusaur makes a fantastic Swords Dance user. Sleep Powder sets it apart from other run-of-the-mill Chlorophyll users, and with the new sleep mechanics, it becomes a massively useful move to have, as Venusaur can come in, put the opponent to sleep, and set up Swords Dance with impunity. Seed Bomb is Venusaur's most powerful STAB attack, hitting anything that doesn't resist it hard. After a Swords Dance, Seed Bomb OHKOes Kyogre and all but the most defensive variants of Groudon. Earthquake complements Seed Bomb nicely, as it hits the Dragon- and Steel-types who resist it very hard, 2HKOing Dialga, most Ferrothorn, and Steel Arceus.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>252 Attack EVs and an Adamant nature maximize Venusaur's Attack, letting it hit a massive 578 after a Swords Dance. 216 EVs are invested in Speed to let Venusaur outspeed Scarf Garchomp under the sun, while the remaining EVs are dumped in HP to slightly increase its bulk. Life Orb is the item of choice, as it ensures a crucial OHKO on most Groudon and 2HKO on most Ferrothorn.</p>

    <p>To function effectively, Venusaur needs quite some team support. It is glaringly obvious that Groudon needs to be around with its everlasting sunlight for Venusaur to actually do anything, making it a compulsory teammate. Weather changers such as Tyranitar and the ubiquitous Kyogre will remove the sunlight that Venusaur needs, though they need to be careful when switching in as they will get wrecked by boosted Seed Bomb. Thus, Pokemon who can eliminate these threats will make great teammates for Venusaur. Blaziken can smash Tyranitar with Hi Jump Kick, and fits into sun teams very well, though it can finish off only weakened Kyogre. Zekrom OHKOes Kyogre and 2HKOes Tyranitar with Bolt Strike while taking unboosted Stone Edge from the latter with ease.</p>

    <p>Lugia and Giratina put a full stop to Venusaur's sweep, as they can sponge its boosted attacks with ease and phaze it with Whirlwind or Dragon Tail. Pokemon who can deal with the mentioned Pokemon will help Venusaur immensely. Darkrai comes to mind immediately, as it can put them to sleep with Dark Void, set up with Nasty Plot, and 2HKO with STAB Dark Pulse, though Giratina commonly runs Sleep Talk and has a small chance of phazing Darkrai with Dragon Tail. Mewtwo can hurt both of the mentioned Pokemon significantly with Ice Beam, but will get phazed before it can KO them. Entry hazard support also helps Venusaur immensely, ensuring the OHKO on every Groudon variant under the sun and making even the most desperate of users think twice before switching in Ho-Oh. Deoxys-S makes a great choice for setting up Stealth Rock and Spikes thanks to its massive 180 base Speed. Forretress, although it compounds Venusaur's Fire-type weakness, can lay down Toxic Spikes as well in addition to removing any entry hazards that trouble Venusaur with Rapid Spin.</p>

    <p>Venusaur also has a few alternative options it can use. Growth can be used to bluff a mixed set and lure in threats which Venusaur can put to sleep with Sleep Powder. However, since rain is pretty common in Ubers, Venusaur could end up with a smaller boost if it opts for Growth, making Swords Dance the better choice most of the time. Since Ho-Oh poses a massive threat to Venusaur, Double-Edge can be used to smack it hard on the switch-in, but the recoil damage will cause Venusaur's early demise, and Venusaur will have to drop either Sleep Powder or a coverage option to accommodate it.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Special Attacker
    move 1: Growth
    move 2: Grass Knot
    move 3: Sludge Bomb
    move 4: Hidden Power Ground / Hidden Power Fire
    item: Life Orb
    evs: 40 HP / 252 SpA / 216 Spe
    nature: Modest
    Ability: Chlorophyll

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>This set makes full use of Venusaur's respectable base 100 Special Attack and decent special movepool. With the given EVs, Venusaur's Special Attack shoots up to a jaw-dropping 656 after just one Growth, allowing it to hit a large range of threats very hard with its attacks. STAB Grass Knot will almost always have 120 Base Power due to the fact that the behemoths populating Ubers are generally very heavy, OHKOing Groudon, Kyogre, and Palkia without breaking a sweat. Sludge Bomb is Venusaur's secondary STAB attack, and hits the Dragon-types who resist Venusaur's STAB Grass-type moves hard, in addition to OHKOing Shaymin-S and 2HKOing Lugia. There are two options for the last slot. Hidden Power Ground OHKOes Dialga while still 2HKOing most Ferrothorn, but this means that Venusaur will be completely walled by Skarmory. To remedy this Hidden Power Fire can be used instead, roasting Skarmory and Ferrothorn while being boosted by the sun. However, Hidden Power Fire will make Dialga a great check to Venusaur, as it can survive a boosted Hidden Power Fire with ease and OHKO Venusaur in return with Draco Meteor. Thus, if Venusaur's teammates can deal with Dialga, Hidden Power Fire is the better choice; otherwise, Hidden Power Ground should be used.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>The EV spread, in conjunction with a Modest nature, maximizes Venusaur's Special Attack. Once again, 216 EVs are invested in Speed to let Venusaur outspeed Scarf Garchomp under the sun. The remaining 40 EVs are put in HP. Life Orb jacks up the power of Venusaur's attacks, and is thus the best choice for an item. Leftovers seems like a good option on paper, but Venusaur misses the power boost provided by Life Orb, and won't be taking too many hits anyway.</p>

    <p>Once again, Groudon is a vital teammate, setting up the sun which allows Venusaur to sweep. Also, Venusaur will be walled cold by special sponges such as Chansey, making hard-hitting Fighting-types such as Terrakion or Fighting Arceus great teammates for Venusaur. Since Venusaur lacks Sleep Powder, teammates who can help it set up aid it enormously. Despite the Encore nerf, Wobbuffet can lock the opponent into a harmless move such as Stealth Rock, giving Venusaur a free turn to set up Growth. Darkrai can also do the same with Dark Void, though its inaccuracy can cause issues. Even though Lugia is 2HKOed by Sludge Bomb and needs prediction to switch in safely, Giratina is as big a roadblock as ever for Venusaur, taking all of its boosted attacks with ease. Darkrai comes to Venusaur's aid once again in this regard, setting up on Giratina with Dark Void and Nasty Plot and finishing it off with Dark Pulse, though as mentioned earlier it does need to be wary of Sleep Talk. Finally, entry hazard support is always welcome, making Deoxys-S and Forretress great teammates.</p>

    <p>Since Venusaur will sometimes find it hard to set up Growth, Sludge Bomb can be dropped for Sleep Powder. This will enable Venusaur to set up with a lot more ease, and also allows it to potentially take a Pokemon out of the game. However, Venusaur will then lose out a lot of coverage, and will be walled easily by Pokemon such as Lugia. Hidden Power Rock can be used to OHKO Ho-Oh, but has little use otherwise.</p>

    [SET]
    Name: Mixed Attacker
    Move 1: Growth
    Move 2: Seed Bomb
    Move 3: Earthquake
    Move 4: Sludge Bomb
    Item: Life Orb
    EVs: 44 HP / 160 Atk / 88 SpA / 216 Spe
    Nature: Lonely
    Ability: Chlorophyll

    <p>Venusaur can run a mixed set very well thanks to Growth doubling both its Attack and Special Attack under the sun and its good mixed movepool. After a Growth, Venusaur's Attack and Special Attack both climb above 500, hitting 528 and 516 with the given EVs, respectively. STAB Seed Bomb and Sludge Bomb hit a large range of threats very hard, and are Venusaur's most powerful attacks. After a Growth, Seed Bomb OHKOes Kyogre and 2HKOes Groudon with ease, while Sludge Bomb maims the Dragon-types who resist Seed Bomb in addition to OHKOing Shaymin. Earthquake offers excellent neutral coverage along with Venusaur's other moves, smacking the Steel-types who sponge Venusaur's STAB attacks hard.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>The EVs balance out Venusaur's offenses while letting it hit 500 Speed in the sun. Since this set does not maximize either of Venusaur's offenses, it needs team support to take down defensive behemoths such as Giratina and Lugia, who can sponge all of its attacks with ease. Darkrai can set up on them with Dark Void and Nasty Plot, 2HKOing both with Dark Pulse after a Nasty Plot boost. Venusaur also needs entry hazard support to give it a chance of OHKOing Groudon and Palkia with Seed Bomb after a Growth. Once again, Forretress and Deoxys-S are the prime candidates for this role with their large bulk and massive Speed, respectively. Pokemon who can help Venusaur set up, such as Darkrai and Wobbuffet, make good teammates as well. Darkrai can incapacitate the opponent with Dark Void and give Venusaur a free turn to set up Growth, with Wobbuffet doing the same with Encore.</p>

    <p>Venusaur can run some other moves on this set. Grass Knot can be used to guarantee the OHKO on Groudon, though Venusaur will then miss out on OHKOing Kyogre. Hidden Power Fire OHKOes Ferrothorn after a Growth, but Venusaur will have trouble accommodating it on this set. Similiarly, Hidden Power Ice can be used to KO Rayquaza as it switches in to revenge kill Venusaur. Hidden Power Rock OHKOes Ho-Oh, but it has little use otherwise. Finally, Sleep Powder can be used to make setting up easy, but Venusaur will miss out on a lot of coverage.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>With its decent bulk, Venusaur can run a SubSeed set in the sun effectively. Leech Seed will also heal a good chunk of Venusaur's HP every turn thanks to the high HP stats of many Pokemon in Ubers. This set can function pretty decently with Toxic Spikes support, but Venusaur is outclassed by Ferrothorn, who has significantly higher bulk and a large number of resistances thanks to its Steel typing.</p>

    <p>As mentioned earlier, Venusaur can run a few alternative Hidden Powers to surprise a would-be check. Hidden Power Rock OHKOes Ho-Oh, Hidden Power Ice deals with Rayquaza, and Hidden Power Fire OHKOes Ferrothorn. Venusaur can also run Giga Drain to heal itself, but it has a low Base Power. Similiarly, Leaf Storm can be used for a very powerful STAB attack, but Venusaur will be forced to switch after using it. Venusaur also gets access to Power Whip and Outrage, but sadly, they are illegal with Chlorophyll.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>Weather changers such as Kyogre and Tyranitar are the bane of Venusaur's existence, depriving it of its Speed boost and OHKOing it with Ice Beam and Fire Blast, respectively. They need to be careful when switching in, however, as they will dislike eating a boosted Seed Bomb or Sleep Powder. Although rare, Abomasnow can remove the sunlight and wreck Venusaur with STAB Blizzard, though it needs to watch out for Sludge Bomb. Rayquaza will also remove Venusaur's Speed boost with Air Lock, and can KO it with Fire Blast or Outrage.</p>

    <p>Venusaur will also find itself walled most of the time by Lugia, Giratina, Ho-Oh, and Steel-types such as Skarmory and Ferrothorn. Lugia resists both of Venusaur's STAB moves, has access to reliable recovery in Roost, and can phaze Venusaur while stomaching its boosted moves with ease. Giratina packs Dragon Tail, and can sponge Venusaur's boosted hits as well, though it has no recovery outside of Rest. Ho-Oh is immune to Earthquake, and laughs at both Seed Bomb and Sludge Bomb while turning Venusaur into a pile of ashes with Sacred Fire. Skarmory and Ferrothorn will also wall Venusaur with ease, as they are immune to Sludge Bomb and barely get scratched by Venusaur's Grass-type attacks while KOing it with Brave Bird and Gyro Ball, respectively. However, they need to watch out for Hidden Power Fire and, in the case of Ferrothorn, Earthquake. Finally, the special set is walled cold by Chansey, who can also cripple Venusaur with Thunder Wave.</p>
  2. DetroitLolcat

    DetroitLolcat Maize And Blue Badge Set :)
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    I think you might want to run 228 EVs in Speed as the standard because it lets you outspeed min-Speed Deoxys-S who could end your sweep with an Ice Beam or something.
  3. CinnamonBunYogurt

    CinnamonBunYogurt

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    Wouldn't Growth be better than Swords Dance in the Swords Dance set? When you use Swords Dance, your opponent immediately knows Venusaur is physical; however, your opponent won't know for sure what kind of attacker Venusaur is with Growth until it's attacked.

    EDIT: Nevermind, Swords Dance is moar reliable and allows Venusaur to boost even in unfavourable weather if it needs to.
  4. Farewell

    Farewell

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    Isn't this set better than Venasaur's SD set?

    Victreebel: @ Life Orb
    252 Atk / 48 SpA / 208 Spe
    Hasty

    Sleep Powder
    Growth
    Power Whip
    Hidden Power [Fire]

    It has the same speed, 20 more Attack, Power Whip over Seed Bomb, and Hidden Power [Fire] to handle Steels like Skarmary, Ferrothorn, Forretress, Scizor, etc. With this spread and Life Orb, Victreebel has 322 SpA, 401 Atk, and 500 Speed in the Sun.

    So after Sleep Powder, you use Growth, and your Special Attack is 644, Attack is 802. This far surpasses Venasaur's attacking prowess..

    If you are concerned with the lack of Special Attack, you can switch Power Whip to Leaf Blade, and Hidden Power [Fire] to Weather Ball.

    Victreebel: @ Life Orb
    252 Atk / 48 SpA / 208 Spe
    Hasty

    Sleep Powder
    Growth
    Leaf Blade
    Weather Ball

    While weaker offensively on the physical side, Victreebel still maintains 20 higher Atk than Venasaur, the same speed, and Leaf Blade packs a high critical hit ratio with 15 higher base power.

    Weather ball becomes a 150 Fire move under the sun, and can hit Steels, Grass types, etc. for 300 Base Power (super effective), which does help it catch up to Venasaur's EQ due to the higher Base power.
  5. kiddu

    kiddu

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    Sorry if I'm technically not allowed to post here, but I figured that this should get a reply:

    (And I get timed out, anyway. -.- I hate this browser...)

    Now, this is where Venusaur shows its advantages over Victreebel: in order to reach the same 500 Speed, Victreebel must run a Speed-boosting nature, meaning that it will never be able to reach the same Special Attack that Venusaur can when using that same Speed.

    On the other hand, there are also certain advantages that Victreebel has over Venusaur, one of which you just barely touched on: Weather Ball. In the sun, Weather Ball does even more damage to Dialga than HP Ground would (150 BP > 140 BP), meaning that it settles the "HP Ground vs. HP Fire" dilemma that special Venusaur faces. The varying typing doesn't even matter as much in Ubers, either, since of the two main opposing weather starters, Tyranitar and Kyogre, the former is outsped & mauled by your Grass STAB regardless while the latter nerfs HP Fire just by switching in & takes more from Weather Ball than from HP Ground anyway.

    And then there's the mixed set. By merit of Victreebel's significantly higher Attack, it takes a mere 72 EVs with a neutral nature to match VenuMix's current Attack of 528. This, combined with the +Speed nature and 208 Speed EVs required to reach 500 Speed, leaves a total of 230 (228 in practice) EVs to be placed wherever, more than enough to match VenuMix's 516 Special Attack while still leaving enough to nearly max either offense if so desired. While it may lack Earthquake, it does have the momentarily-superior physical STAB of Leaf Blade, the aforementioned Weather Ball, and the ability to add coverage with Sludge Bomb or Hidden Power Ice/Ground to make up for it.


    In short, I understand that Chlorophyll Venusaur will get better once it has access to its Egg moves, but as for right now.....aside from purely-special sets (maybe not even that), how much reason is there to use it as a Uber sun sweeper over Victreebel? I realize that Venusaur is much bulkier, especially on the special side, but does that really matter for an uninvested sweeper in Ubers, when most things are already hitting ridiculously hard? Otherwise, there's also Earthquake, and.....?


    (Also, sorry if any of the stat numbers are off somehow. I kind of did them all in my head, so I wouldn't be surprised. >.>)



    4-DAYS-LATER EDIT: Ok, so I ran some damage calcs on Weather Ball against the standard support Dialga (252 HP/200 Sp. DEF Modest/Quiet, currently its primary set) and found that a sun-boosted Weather Ball from Victreebel actually does only about 7 HP (not percent, HP) or so less than the special Venusaur's HP Ground, which is hardly anything to care about. So, between that and still having coverage on Skarmory and other Steels not named Heatran in a single move, I'm finding it harder and harder to see a reason to use Venusaur over Victreebel.

    (tl;dr: Victreebel has overall better stuff in Ubers, somebody tell me how Venusaur isn't outclassed besides having EQ and a little more usable Special Attack.)

    Also, it should be noted that, while the analysis states that Venusaur's HP Ground OHKOs Dialga, both it and Vic actually need at least Stealth Rock and one layer of Spikes out in order to even have a slim chance of OHKOing the above support spread from full health, so you might want to mention that in the analysis.
  6. Misa

    Misa

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    This is a late reply, but there is a good argument to whether replace Growth with Swords Dance on the SD set as Venusaur will generally be used in the sun.

    I would take Growth over SD for the unpredictability imo as a single "free" turn could potentially save you the match (aside from the fact that Venusaur shouldn't be used in rain)
  7. [Gemini]

    [Gemini]

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    the bold line is not true . There's no way you can hit Skarmory or Bronzong neutrally with this set ( except maybe Skarmory if you EQ him when he use Roost ) . You should change that line
  8. Omicron

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    I thought Giga Drain was illegal for now due to the Level 10 Male only DW Bulbasaurs?
  9. jc104

    jc104 Humblest person ever
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    GP 1/2
  10. Pewqazz

    Pewqazz

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    Amateur GP check:

  11. jc104

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    Pewgazz, you should wait until after the previous check has been implemented before you do your own. Regardless, I do not disagree with any of your changes for the record, barring the moving of "only."
  12. Nexus

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    What Chanazan said about Giga Drain is true, it is illegal atm with Chlorophyll. Leaf Storm has the same problem, yet it is mentioned in Other Options without the condition that it is illegal like Power Whip and Outrage are, so change that along with the GP checks.
  13. Pewqazz

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    Okay, thanks for the advice. I figured it'd be fine since my check was based off the changes you had made in your check, but I suppose does make more sense to wait until they've been implemented.
  14. Fatecrashers

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    where'd you go

    i miss you so

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