1. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.
  2. New to the forums? Check out our Mentorship Program!
    Our mentors will answer your questions and help you become a part of the community!

Venusaur (Analysis)

Discussion in 'Uploaded Analyses' started by Tobes, Nov 17, 2010.

  1. Tobes

    Tobes Woo-hoo, woo-hoo, woo-hoo-hoo!
    is a Battle Server Administratoris a Site Staff Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a World Cup of Pokemon defending champion

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2010
    Messages:
    2,530
    Status: Done
    QCs: Iconic, Bloo, Delta 2777
    GPs: Chou Toshio, Fatecrashers
    [​IMG]
    http://veekun.com/dex/pokemon/venusaur

    --------------------------------------------------

    [Overview]

    <p>The king of DPP UU before Heracross's short stint in the tier, Venusaur gained a tremendous boost in the transition to 5th Generation with its Dream World ability, Chlorophyll. In addition, the move Growth now doubles both attacking stats in sunlight, making Venusaur one of sun's premiere sweepers. Unfortunately, Venusaur cannot use Power Whip or the now-buffed Giga Drain with Chlorophyll, somewhat limiting its offensive capabilities. However, even without these moves it is quite dangerous, as although its attacking stats are not exceptional, Growth allows them to reach very threatening levels. Venusaur has plenty of opportunities to set up, with its resistances to Fighting-, Water-, and Electric-type moves and decent bulk. It is very difficult to counter thanks to its access to Sleep Powder, which is even more difficult to handle due to the new sleep mechanics. Although it is rather lackluster without its preferred weather in play, Venusaur is a menace in the sun and should not be taken lightly.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Special Growth
    move 1: Growth
    move 2: Energy Ball / SolarBeam
    move 3: Hidden Power Fire
    move 4: Sludge Bomb / Sleep Powder
    item: Life Orb
    ability: Chlorophyll
    nature: Modest
    evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    ivs: 2 Atk / 30 SpA / 30 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Venusaur is a monster under the sun, capable of running through any team that isn't prepared for it. Life Orb is the preferred item as it provides a substantial boost to Venusaur's offenses. Growth is the most important move in the set, as it boosts Venusaur's Special Attack to deadly levels. As Giga Drain is illegal with Chlorophyll, Energy Ball is Venusaur's preferred STAB move. If sufficient team support is run to remove enemy weather inducers, then SolarBeam becomes a viable choice for its raw power. Hidden Power Fire is essential, as with it Venusaur can kill any Steel-type, bar Heatran, under the sun with a Growth boost. Sludge Bomb provides a powerful secondary STAB move, but Sleep Powder is also an option for its ability to remove nearly any of Venusaur's counters from the game.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>The EVs grant maximum offensive potential. Under the sun Venusaur outspeeds Deoxys-S and anything with lower Speed, including most Choice Scarf users. A Timid nature can be used to outspeed base 110 Speed Pokemon who hold a Choice Scarf, but the power loss is noticeable. A Lum Berry can be used to avoid status, but Venusaur needs the power that Life Orb provides. Hidden Power Fighting can be used to kill Heatran, who otherwise walls the set. Petal Dance provides a powerful cleaning move, but locks Venusaur into an attack with an easily resisted typing, making it a poor choice overall. Grass Knot is another option over Energy Ball, but the low damage output against Politoed and Rotom-W makes it problematic. Lastly, Synthesis can be used to heal off Life Orb recoil and damage, but Venusaur almost always prefers having an attacking move in the moveslot Synthesis occupies.</p>

    <p>It cannot be stressed enough that Drought Ninetales is mandatory support for this set, as without it Venusaur is a subpar sweeper. Venusaur also wants the opponent's weather inducers out of the way, so Wobbuffet is an excellent choice for trapping and killing them. Heatran walls the set completely once Sleep Clause has been activated. Arcanine can switch in on a Fire-type move used by Heatran and KO it with Close Combat, and also benefits from sunlight. Blissey and Eviolite Chansey wall this set completely, and can even negate Sleep Powder with their Natural Cure ability, so a strong Pursuit user such as Scizor can be used to trap and kill them. If Hidden Power Fire is not being run it is recommended that Magnezone be used to trap and kill bothersome Steel-types.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Mixed Growth
    move 1: Growth
    move 2: Seed Bomb
    move 3: Return / Earthquake
    move 4: Hidden Power Fire / Sleep Powder
    item: Life Orb
    ability: Chlorophyll
    nature: Lonely
    evs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
    ivs: 30 Def / 30 SpA / 30 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>This set works off of Venusaur's lesser Attack stat in order to catch some of its usual counters off guard. Life Orb is even more important on this set due to Venusaur's substantially lower Attack stat. Growth allows Venusaur to reach an acceptable Attack stat in sunlight. Seed Bomb is Venusaur's strongest physical Grass move, as Power Whip is illegal with Chlorophyll. Return provides fantastic neutral coverage together with Seed Bomb, and the combination is resisted only by Steel-types, Chandelure, and Gengar, while Earthquake can kill any Chandelure and Heatran without Air Balloon at the cost of poorer neutral coverage. Hidden Power Fire kills most Steel-types at +2 Special Attack, although Heatran is immune to the move and specially defensive Jirachi can survive it and paralyze Venusaur with Thunder Wave or severely injure it with Fire Punch. Sleep Powder can be used instead to incapacitate a counter, but the inability to harm Steel-types is a problem.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>As Venusaur resists most of the commonly used priority attacks and has enough bulk to take Scizor's Bullet Punch, Lonely is the preferred nature since it allows Venusaur to maintain its special bulk. The EVs given maximize offensive potential. A Hasty nature can be used to outspeed Scarfed base 110 Speed Pokemon in the sun, but this is not advisable as the power drop is much more detrimental on this set. If Sleep Powder is being run over Hidden Power Fire an Adamant nature should be used instead, as well as perfect IVs, and Swords Dance should be used over Growth so that Venusaur is not completely useless out of sunlight, although it should be noted that Venusaur is not likely to be scoring many KOs without its favorite weather.</p>

    <p>This set should never be used without Drought Ninetales. Wobbuffet can trap and kill enemy weather inducers, which is very important for this set. Volcarona greatly benefits from the surprise 2HKOs this set can net on Blissey and Eviolite Chansey after a Growth, and also loves sunlight and Venusaur's ability to absorb Toxic Spikes upon switching in. If Hidden Power is not being run, then Magnezone makes a fine partner for its ability to trap and kill problematic Steel-types. If Earthquake is not being used Arcanine is a good teammate for dealing with Heatran, and if Earthquake is being used then Scizor does well at trapping and killing Latios and Latias, who otherwise wall the set. Likewise Slowbro with Ice Beam can be employed to deal with Salamence and Dragonite.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Subseed
    move 1: Leech Seed
    move 2: Substitute / Protect
    move 3: Hidden Power Fire
    move 4: Sleep Powder
    item: Leftovers
    ability: Chlorophyll
    nature: Bold
    evs: 192 HP / 252 Def / 52 SpD / 12 Spe
    ivs: 2 Atk / 30 SpA / 30 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>This set allows Venusaur to act as a quick-staller. Its advantages over Whimsicott include Sleep Powder, which allows a free use of Substitute, resistance to the abundantly used Fighting-type, and auto-absorption of Toxic Spikes, which helps substantially against stall teams. In sunlight Venusaur outspeeds most threats and can use Leech Seed on them before they can attack, allowing it to stall them out with Substitute until Leech Seed bleeds them dry. Substitute blocks status while shielding Venusaur from hits, and the HP lost from creating it is almost fully restored by a turn of Leftovers and Leech Seed recovery. Protect can be used instead to scout for a phazing move or to gain a free turn of recovery, but it cannot be used as frequently as Substitute. Hidden Power Fire allows Venusaur to 2HKO most Grass-types in sunlight, who would be untouchable with Leech Seed alone. Sleep Powder gives Venusaur a free turn to do as it pleases, allowing it to set up a Substitute with no cost or throw out a free Leech Seed, letting it begin its stall.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>With 12 Speed EVs Venusaur reaches 198 Speed, outpacing positive-natured base 130 Speed Pokemon under the sun. 192 HP EVs give Venusaur a Leftovers number, increasing the amount of healing it receives each turn. 252 Defense EVs with a Bold nature gives maximum physical bulk, and the remainder is placed in Special Defense. An alternative spread of Bold with 192 HP / 86 Def / 232 Spe can be used so that Venusaur is able to use Substitute first on Deoxys-S and anything slower. Synthesis can be used to to heal almost all of Venusaur's health, but the low 8 PP hurts Venusaur when it comes to stalling. Protect can be used over Sleep Powder for more efficient stalling, but at the cost of ease of setup. Toxic can be used to poison Pokemon who would otherwise avoid Toxic Spikes used by an ally, but Venusaur needs the moves it has in order to work efficiently.</p>

    <p>Like the sweeper set, Drought Ninetales is critical to this set's success, although this set is not as dependent on it. In addition, Toxic Spikes support is heavily recommended. Tentacruel can set them while also using Rapid Spin to clear away opposing entry hazards, and provides a useful resistance to Fire-type moves, which Venusaur greatly appreciates. Reuniclus is immune to both poison and Leech Seed, so Pokemon that can remove it are greatly appreciated. Specially-defensive Spiritomb can trap and kill Reuniclus while also blocking opponents that try to use Rapid Spin in order to clear Toxic Spikes. Wobbuffet makes an excellent partner for this set, as it can trap and kill problematic Pokemon and absolutely loves the bolstered recovery a seeded Pokemon provides. Liquid Ooze Tentacruel is a problem as it causes Leech Seed to backfire and absorbs Toxic Spikes upon arrival. Slowbro with Psyshock deals with Tentacruel rather easily while also countering sand sweepers, who are in fact a serious threat to sun teams. Magnezone can trap and kill Ferrothorn, allowing Venusaur to run Protect over Hidden Power Fire. In this case 4 Speed EVs can be shifted to Special Defense.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>A Choice set can be used, but the lack of power makes it a poor choice when compared to a boosting set. An Overgrow Swords Dance Venusaur can be used to take advantage of Power Whip, but is mostly outclassed by other physical sweepers. Worry Seed can be used to remove a troublesome Pokemon's ability, but the unreliability of the move and general waste of a moveslot make it a poor choice to use. Venusaur can give up Chlorophyll to gain access to its extensive list of egg moves, including Power Whip and Leaf Storm, but this is inadvisable as Venusaur only truly shines in the sunlight.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>Venusaur is very difficult to safely counter before Sleep Clause has been activated, but once it has it becomes much more managable. Heatran walls any set without Hidden Power Fighting or Earthquake. Blissey and Eviolite Chansey are hard stops to special Venusaur thanks to their great Special Defense. Steel-types in general wall Venusaur lacking Hidden Power Fire, with the exception of ones that have a secondary typing weak to Grass. Auto-weather inducers can't switch in on Venusaur, but can take away its sunlight and its speed, allowing it to be effortlessly revenge-killed. Whimsicott can switch in while Venusaur uses a boosting move and lock it into that move with a Prankster Encore, or it can paralyze Venusaur with Stun Spore to end any chance of a sweep.</p>
  2. ChaZanG1

    ChaZanG1

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2010
    Messages:
    31
    IMO you should put earthquake as a second option on all the movesets, because the ability to hit heatran/ shandera is invaluable
  3. Rih

    Rih

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2009
    Messages:
    36
    Agreed, why isn't Earthquake there instead of Return?

    Also, isn't Solarbeam a viable option over Power Whip? I understand that the option of KOing Blissey is nice, but the set is named "Special" Growth. It should at least be slashed IMHO.
  4. Tobes

    Tobes Woo-hoo, woo-hoo, woo-hoo-hoo!
    is a Battle Server Administratoris a Site Staff Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a World Cup of Pokemon defending champion

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2010
    Messages:
    2,530
    Return provides far better neutral coverage than Earthquake and almost all Heatran run Balloon, while Shandera is rarely used in OU. Note that Earthquake is listed in the other options section. Will add a mention of Earthquake to the Dream World section of the analysis though.

    Solarbeam is not going on the set. Weather changers are way to common to justify using it. However, I will make Petal Dance the main move and add Power Whip to the other options along with the EV spread.

    -------------------------------------------------------------------

    I'd appreciate comments on whether or not the Choice and SD sets deserve a full analysis or if they should be relegated to other options.

    Edit: Decided sets weren't good enough and moved them to Other Options.
  5. HowNormal

    HowNormal

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2010
    Messages:
    3
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think growth raises by 2 stages.
  6. Don Honchkrorleone

    Don Honchkrorleone

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2010
    Messages:
    749
    In fact Growth now raises by 2 both Atk and SpA in the Sun.
  7. Forte.EXE

    Forte.EXE

    Joined:
    May 22, 2010
    Messages:
    584
    In your Overview, you mention Venusaur being a great Mixed Sweeper due to Growth being a +2 boost to both attacking stats under the Sun.

    But you don't actually have a Mixed set. Are you planning on editing in one later?
  8. Byrn Dragonstone

    Byrn Dragonstone

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2010
    Messages:
    232
    The first set should have Earthquake over Return. Allows you to hit all Fire types bar ones with Flying Typing. HP Ice can be used if you are using Earthquake to hit the Dragons harder too. Bronzong is the only thing that resists that typing.

    Also Solarbeam is an option. Particularly on a mixed set as it doesn't lock you into a move, unless they change the weather before you attack.
  9. Tobes

    Tobes Woo-hoo, woo-hoo, woo-hoo-hoo!
    is a Battle Server Administratoris a Site Staff Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a World Cup of Pokemon defending champion

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2010
    Messages:
    2,530
    I originally had a physical-based and special-based set, but decided to forgo Power Whip on special-Saur. (Although technically Physical is still mixed because of HP Fire, but w/e) Thanks for bringing that up, I'll fix it.

    Did you not read my post after the set? I already explained why they are not going in.
  10. drcossack

    drcossack I'm everywhere, you ain't never there

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2009
    Messages:
    1,122
    Just a few nitpicks. Chlorophyll is already released, so it shouldn't be mentioned in DW section. Also, Chloro Venusaur is forced Male (as are the other starters), so Power Whip is not an option on the Physical sets (use Seed Bomb instead.) Also, why Petal Dance over Grass Knot/Leaf Storm?
  11. Tobes

    Tobes Woo-hoo, woo-hoo, woo-hoo-hoo!
    is a Battle Server Administratoris a Site Staff Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a World Cup of Pokemon defending champion

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2010
    Messages:
    2,530
    Thanks, was not aware about forced-male. Will remove Chlorophyll reference. Also, Petal Dance because it's now a base 120 move and can clean very well if Grass-resists and Blissey are gone, a-la DDMence Outrage. Leaf Storm is not a good idea on a growth set, and Energy Ball probably hits most things harder than Grass Knot. So I'll slash Energy Ball in on special set.

    Edit: Seed Bomb's not legal either since it's a 4th-gen Tutor move, so it looks like physical-based will have to be scrapped. :/

    Double Edit: Looks like you're right. Crap, now I have to redo the Physical Growth set.
  12. drcossack

    drcossack I'm everywhere, you ain't never there

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2009
    Messages:
    1,122
    No - if Serebii is correct, it's a pre-evo move as well. I can test that later, I have a few Bulba available.
  13. Ace Emerald

    Ace Emerald Professional
    is a Tutoris a member of the Site Staffis a Super Moderatoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Visual Media Head

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2010
    Messages:
    1,918
    Earthquake deserves a slash. Return may have neutral coverage, but earthquake has way better SE coverage, and SE coverage always trumps neutral. Return hits levitating dragons better, and I'll run calcs if I need to, but multi scale dragonite and intimidate mence aren't too afraid of return, scarf lati@s outspeeds you anyway (I'm pretty sure anyway).

    Just remembered rotom h, but still, earthquake deserves more than "other options".
  14. Tobes

    Tobes Woo-hoo, woo-hoo, woo-hoo-hoo!
    is a Battle Server Administratoris a Site Staff Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a World Cup of Pokemon defending champion

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2010
    Messages:
    2,530
    No, neutral coverage is always more important than super effective coverage. Salamence was not a terror in 4th gen because he hit so many things for super-effective, it was because he hit almost everything for neutral. Likewise, Electivire wasn't good even though it could hit fourteen types out of seventeen for super effective. With Grass / Normal / Fire, type-wise you're only being walled by Heatran. Trade-off Return for Earthquake, and suddenly you're being walled by Mence, Sazandora, Rotom-H, the Lati twins (hardly anyone uses Scarf anyway), still walled by Balloon Tran, which is his most common set, and Voltolos.

    Earthquake is not being slashed in unless someone provides a very strong argument for it, so please stop asking about it people.
  15. Ace Emerald

    Ace Emerald Professional
    is a Tutoris a member of the Site Staffis a Super Moderatoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Visual Media Head

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2010
    Messages:
    1,918
    Not the way I understand it. Salamence was feared because he hit many things for neutral with his powerful stab, which is way different from a non stab semi powerful move. Btw, did mence use EQ and fire blast for the neutral coverage? No, he used them for SE coverage on steels. Just saying.

    Does voltlos resist fire? I do realize hp fire doesn't have a ton on power, but in the sun plus voltlos's fraility... You should be careful for t-wave regardless.

    If you've done any proper scouting, you'll have known if tran is on a ballon and can pop it with another poke, or even on the switch in. That'll send him out of there. And I have seen a lot of scarf latis actually. I'll think about a good argument for EQ later, I'm not saying I'm right and you're wrong, I'm just saying there could be some advantages to EQ.

    Edit: what argument I could get up
    While venusaur is up at +2, return is superior to earthquake because it kos whatever EQ hits SE anyways. But he isn't always at +2. EQ can threaten pokes out to snatch that growth where return cannot, as well as being useful if you want to play venusaur without setting up either as a revenge killer or to hit switch ins and keep your offencive momentom.

    I'm not trying to be a jerk/arrogent, but I would like you to think about this: as an analyses writer, you really have to show all non gimmick options a poke has. EQ is by no means gimmicky. It is a legit option. If you want to keep it off, whatever, I'm not going to fight you on it. It'll get added later when this analyses is out of your hands and on smogon.
  16. supermarth64

    supermarth64 Here I stand in the light of day
    is a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2008
    Messages:
    2,412
    That's because Mence just spams Dragon-type moves and uses EQ/Fire Blast to hit Steels that resist Dragon. Dragon by itself is great neutral coverage, and what other moves it employs just helps to hit the resistances. Many 4th gen UU Water-type sweepers run Waterfall (or some variant) + Return because of the great neutral coverage it provides, as even though Return doesn't provide super effective damage, you want neutral coverage on a move. What good is Ice Punch going to do you to hit Flying- and Grass-type Pokemon if you still can't break through bulky waters? Venusaur is no different. It just has 4MSS.
  17. Byrn Dragonstone

    Byrn Dragonstone

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2010
    Messages:
    232
    When runnning Earthquake you run HP Ice anyways. It provides near perfect coverage as I pointed out in my first post here.

    Solarbeam should be mentioned in the additional comments for the Special set.
  18. Tobes

    Tobes Woo-hoo, woo-hoo, woo-hoo-hoo!
    is a Battle Server Administratoris a Site Staff Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a World Cup of Pokemon defending champion

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2010
    Messages:
    2,530
    Hmm, didn't notice HP Ice before. That does look like it would work, so I'll add Earthquake and HP Ice and mention that they should only be used together. (Although it's an inferior combination imo as Skarmory and Nattorei are not even being 2HKOd)

    As for Solarbeam, I really don't think it's worth running. Weather-changers are way too common, and what's more important is that Venusaur can't deal with them without a Grass move (except lol Abomasnow). More often than not you're going to regret Solarbeam, so it's staying out.

    @ King Emerald

    What supermarth said about neutral coverage.

    Your argument for Earthquake (by itself) really doesn't hold water. You're saying use Earthquake before a boost? And what exactly is that going to hit? Venusaur has base 82 attack. It's not OHKOing anything that isn't super-frail or that has a 4x weakness. What you're saying is to sacrifice coverage for when you're at +2 in order to hit a very small range when you're unboosted. Not seeing the benefit here. As for scouting, there's a little thing called Team Preview. No competent player is going to risk getting Tran's Balloon popped when he sees Venusaur in the line-up.

    Will mention running a +speed nature in the additional comments to outspeed Scarf Lati@s though.
  19. Higsby

    Higsby

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2010
    Messages:
    14
    Correct me if I'm wrong...
    Life orb does not impact the attack stat, only the damage output.

    Venusaur reaches:
    658 Sp Atk with a beneficial nature and max Sp Atk EV's after one growth in the sun
    -or-
    578 Atk with a beneficial nature and max Atk EV's after one growth in the sun.
    -or
    568 Speed with a beneficial nature and max Speed EV's due to Clorophyll in the sun
  20. Tobes

    Tobes Woo-hoo, woo-hoo, woo-hoo-hoo!
    is a Battle Server Administratoris a Site Staff Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a World Cup of Pokemon defending champion

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2010
    Messages:
    2,530
    I'll remove the stats in that case, as they were really meant to highlight the power Venusaur has.
  21. Tobes

    Tobes Woo-hoo, woo-hoo, woo-hoo-hoo!
    is a Battle Server Administratoris a Site Staff Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a World Cup of Pokemon defending champion

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2010
    Messages:
    2,530
    Alright, made the changes and added a Subseeder set I thought up. Comments please.
  22. Benlisted

    Benlisted

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2010
    Messages:
    1,058
    Admittedly only a nitpick since I'm very new to this, but I feel that Giga Drain should perhaps get a little more emphasis on the first set over Energy Ball if you choose not to run Petal Dance. I know the additional comments has a mention, but unless Energy Ball gets it any significant KOs (which I'm not aware of), then surely being able to heal off LO damage is very beneficial? After a Growth it essentially means people cannot stall out the LO damage by switching as it will recover significant amounts of HP even when hitting resists.

    Excellent analysis though, and sorry I couldn't help any more as I see no problem with any of your writing otherwise.
  23. Tobes

    Tobes Woo-hoo, woo-hoo, woo-hoo-hoo!
    is a Battle Server Administratoris a Site Staff Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a World Cup of Pokemon defending champion

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2010
    Messages:
    2,530
    Thank you for the complement. This is actually a very good idea and I'll edit it in right now.
  24. Higsby

    Higsby

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2010
    Messages:
    14
    Hmmm, I don't think you need Synthesis on this set. Protect not only allows for recovery from seed and leftovers, but prevents the opponent from attacking at all. Synthesis recovery just seems redundant. Well Jarooda is a pretty common subseeder and he runs sets that look kinda like this:

    Jarooda @ Leftovers
    Perversity
    Name: Subseed
    Attack 1: Sub
    Attack 2: Seed
    Attack 3 HP Fire / Glare
    Attack 4: Leaf Storm (Perversity gives it a Sp Atk bonus here)
    4 Hp / 252 Atk / 252 Speed

    While I know that Jarooda lacks a recovery move such as synthesis, he's a great subseeder with a set like this. While I think its important to take advantage of the moves that Venusaur does have, such as synthesis, I don't see the combination of leftovers + seed recover supplemented with a synthesis as a necessity. Especially if Venusaur runs protect, that is one extra turn of leftovers + seed recovery.

    leftovers = 1/16 Hp per turn
    seed = 1/8 Hp per turn
    Two turns of leftovers + seed = 3/8 Hp recovery.

    While Synthesis outright heals off more health than leftovers + seed, 3/8 from two turns of leftover + seed in addition to 2/3 health recovery from Synthesis is more than 1. Venusaur would need to have negative health in order to receive the full amount of health recovery from 2 turns of leftovers + seed and a synthesis. I think this set is better off not running synthesis at all

    Since Nattorei completely walls SubSeed Venusaur, I think that running HP Fire is a pretty good idea, but that means Venusaur either can't have toxic or protect. Maybe the set should look something like this?

    name: Subseeder
    move 1: Leech Seed
    move 2: Substitute
    move 3: HP Fire
    move 4: Protect / Toxic
    item: Leftovers
    ability: Chlorophyll
    nature: Bold
    evs: 128 HP / 252 Def / 28 SpD / 100 Spe

    Maybe Taunt can be placed somewhere in here? I'm not sure what the best set would look like, these are just some thoughts :)
  25. Mew

    Mew

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2010
    Messages:
    488
    You could make a mixed Growth set with chlorophyll, abusing the sun as well as breaking walls. I'm using Growth/Power Whip or Seed Bomb/Hidden Power [Fire]/Earthquake or whatever with max speed and the other EVs distributed over the remaining stats. HP Fire also gets a boost from the sun.

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)