-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
Venusaur (Sunny Day)
- Thread starter alexwolf
- Start date
Something very important is that Landorus is KO by Solarbeam when coming 2 times into SR. It is extremly important to outspeed him since it is one of the gretest threat to many Sun team. It helps you outspeeding Heatran and sleep powder him ( simple exemple ). Without Ev in speed you outspeed " nothing " under rain or sand.
Your set is preferable for sun not using Dugtrio and if the team depends to much of this Venusaur.
@ Princess Bri
You can't compare Venusaur @Growth and this one. You can put energy ball in AC if you want, it can help but you will feel the lack of power during late game.
You don't have to forget that most of the team (not talking about sun ) are offensive Sandstorm, Rain stall, offensive rain and balanced rain.
Against Sand, Venusaur will be use as a mid-late game sweeper and will help to win the weather war. Against none offensive rain Venusaur is so painfull when Bliss has been taken since with sunny day you threaten all the team and it's bulky enough to take water types attack. Growth help in nothing since you don't win the weather war because some Pokemon as such as Jirachi walls you and outspeed you.
Finally against offensive rain, this Venusaur help a lot winning the weather war whereas the Growth one is "useless" since you outspeed nothing under rain.
You can't put the same Pokemon with the same roles with this two differents Venusaur. I'm not saying tha this one is better than the others, they just are totally different and you can't play them in the same way...
Edit: I can join many logs to prove its utility I guess...
Your set is preferable for sun not using Dugtrio and if the team depends to much of this Venusaur.
@ Princess Bri
You can't compare Venusaur @Growth and this one. You can put energy ball in AC if you want, it can help but you will feel the lack of power during late game.
You don't have to forget that most of the team (not talking about sun ) are offensive Sandstorm, Rain stall, offensive rain and balanced rain.
Against Sand, Venusaur will be use as a mid-late game sweeper and will help to win the weather war. Against none offensive rain Venusaur is so painfull when Bliss has been taken since with sunny day you threaten all the team and it's bulky enough to take water types attack. Growth help in nothing since you don't win the weather war because some Pokemon as such as Jirachi walls you and outspeed you.
Finally against offensive rain, this Venusaur help a lot winning the weather war whereas the Growth one is "useless" since you outspeed nothing under rain.
You can't put the same Pokemon with the same roles with this two differents Venusaur. I'm not saying tha this one is better than the others, they just are totally different and you can't play them in the same way...
Edit: I can join many logs to prove its utility I guess...
@Grimm70
Ok so we have Scarf Landorus for now as a reason to use Speeds evs. But what did you say about Heatran? I can't think of a scenario where sun will not be up and Venusuar will need to use Sleep Powder against him. Venusuar won't switch into Heatran. If Heatran is coming in on Venusuar, when sun isn't up, then Venusaur should be using either Sunny Day or Sleep Powder, so problem solved. Generally when Venusuaur forces a switch, he should first use Sunny Day if sun isn't up, and then use Sleep Powder on whatever comes in. The only case where being faster than him would be nice is on a double switch, but is a double switch outside of sun, enough of a reason to justify enough Speed to outrun Heatran?
Also most pokes that Venusuar forces out, outside of sun, are outsped anyway, such as BU Breloom after Sleep Clause is activated, Jellicent, Gastrodon, Tentacruel (he outspeeds, but why does it matter?), SubToxic Gliscor (he outspeeds, but it doesn't matter), Rotom-W (he outspeeds, but it doesn't matter, actually it is better, since he won't be able to hit you with a Sun boosted HP Fire), defensive Politoed, non Ice Beam Starmie (outspeeds both variants without sun) and maybe some more that i am forgetting. But since most of the times Venusuar will be using Sunny Day first, taking the hit after or before doesn't really matter, since you will take the hit anyway, and it is going to do very little damage, if you set-up on the right pokes...
Can you mention some pokes that Venusaur should outspeed without Sun up, and why he should outspeed them?
Also if you have some logs, feel free to post them, so that people will be able to understand this set's role better, if they haven't already from my replays.
Ok so we have Scarf Landorus for now as a reason to use Speeds evs. But what did you say about Heatran? I can't think of a scenario where sun will not be up and Venusuar will need to use Sleep Powder against him. Venusuar won't switch into Heatran. If Heatran is coming in on Venusuar, when sun isn't up, then Venusaur should be using either Sunny Day or Sleep Powder, so problem solved. Generally when Venusuaur forces a switch, he should first use Sunny Day if sun isn't up, and then use Sleep Powder on whatever comes in. The only case where being faster than him would be nice is on a double switch, but is a double switch outside of sun, enough of a reason to justify enough Speed to outrun Heatran?
Also most pokes that Venusuar forces out, outside of sun, are outsped anyway, such as BU Breloom after Sleep Clause is activated, Jellicent, Gastrodon, Tentacruel (he outspeeds, but why does it matter?), SubToxic Gliscor (he outspeeds, but it doesn't matter), Rotom-W (he outspeeds, but it doesn't matter, actually it is better, since he won't be able to hit you with a Sun boosted HP Fire), defensive Politoed, non Ice Beam Starmie (outspeeds both variants without sun) and maybe some more that i am forgetting. But since most of the times Venusuar will be using Sunny Day first, taking the hit after or before doesn't really matter, since you will take the hit anyway, and it is going to do very little damage, if you set-up on the right pokes...
Can you mention some pokes that Venusaur should outspeed without Sun up, and why he should outspeed them?
Also if you have some logs, feel free to post them, so that people will be able to understand this set's role better, if they haven't already from my replays.
This entire set is not using Venusaur the way it should. He sacrifices almost all of his utility to keep Sun up when he's the most dependant abuser and cannot even use it well.
More importantly than winning the weather war, my concern is winning the game. Pay closer attention to those logs: Venusaur failed to be effective in every one of them due to his moveset handicap. If I had Energy Ball, I would not have to choose between forfeiting momentum or forfeiting Venusaur.
To sum it up: using Solarbeam is counterproductive to winning and this Pokemon will not play like it is supposed to unless its strict conditions are met. It would make more sense to just use a standard Venusaur, which does not have to do any of these things and is overall less of a liability to its team. Sun teams do not need backup weather, they need their sweepers to be as threatening as possible and smart players who can keep a Ninetales alive in order reap its benefits in full. The only thing this Venusaur brings is even more Fire and Dragon type bait, issues the average Sun team already faces.
That's not my point. My point is that there are very few Sun sweepers out there that work as well as Venusaur, so why waste its sweeping potential and run a less offensive set? And you say it's a sweeper... but it's not. You get a speed boost for 4 turns and then run off of a mediocre SpA stat (when compared to other behemoths out there like Alakazam) and a Speed stat that has trouble with Scarfers. Worst of all, your "sweep" is ruined whenever an opposing weather starter comes in. I can't really call this a sweeper, and I just see a waste of an excellent Pokemon. There's a reason Growth is the focal point of every Venusaur set (sans SubSeed) and it's that Offensive Venusaur is weak without it.alexwolf said:
@SJCrew
I still don't get why you are stating your own experiences as facts. It is not my fault that you didn't use the set as you should. You keep saying how bad the set is, based on your logs, which btw i saw and i said to you that you weren't using him right, yet you completely ignore my logs, which show the exactly opposite of what you are trying to prove.
If using Solarbeam seems a liability to you then by all means chose Energy Ball, that's why it is in the AC of the set, but Solarbeam is the best option if you know how to use this set, because Venusaur wants all the power he can get. Finally the moment you made this comment: ''Sun teams do not need backup weather'', i realized that you know very little about sun teams.
@JellyOs
As i said many times, just because you don't get his role, doesn't mean that his potential is wasted. First of all a 4 turn boost is all that Venusaur wants in the mid-game to use Sleep Powder and hit one poke or two with Solarbeam and HP Fire, and after this he will simply switch out. If you did things right, in the late-game Venusaur will have a constant speed boost because you won the weather war. Also what problem about Scarfers are you talking about? Did you not see the damage calcs i provided? Scarf Landorus barely does over half to Venusuar with EQ, and the same goes for Terrakion.
You never attempt to sweep when the opposing weather inducer is alive, that's why you have Sunny Day, to keep momentum in your favor, and severely dent something with one of your 2 moves as their Ttar switches out. Finally of 'course Growth Venusaur sweeps better, but this Venusaur can support the team better while also sweeping and this is his selling point. If you can't believe that this set can sweep offensive and balanced teams, then you can try and check some of my logs, or ask any decent player to tell you how difficult to handle is the Grass/Fire coverage after your Dragon types and Heatran are gone or weakened or put to sleep.
I still don't get why you are stating your own experiences as facts. It is not my fault that you didn't use the set as you should. You keep saying how bad the set is, based on your logs, which btw i saw and i said to you that you weren't using him right, yet you completely ignore my logs, which show the exactly opposite of what you are trying to prove.
If using Solarbeam seems a liability to you then by all means chose Energy Ball, that's why it is in the AC of the set, but Solarbeam is the best option if you know how to use this set, because Venusaur wants all the power he can get. Finally the moment you made this comment: ''Sun teams do not need backup weather'', i realized that you know very little about sun teams.
@JellyOs
As i said many times, just because you don't get his role, doesn't mean that his potential is wasted. First of all a 4 turn boost is all that Venusaur wants in the mid-game to use Sleep Powder and hit one poke or two with Solarbeam and HP Fire, and after this he will simply switch out. If you did things right, in the late-game Venusaur will have a constant speed boost because you won the weather war. Also what problem about Scarfers are you talking about? Did you not see the damage calcs i provided? Scarf Landorus barely does over half to Venusuar with EQ, and the same goes for Terrakion.
You never attempt to sweep when the opposing weather inducer is alive, that's why you have Sunny Day, to keep momentum in your favor, and severely dent something with one of your 2 moves as their Ttar switches out. Finally of 'course Growth Venusaur sweeps better, but this Venusaur can support the team better while also sweeping and this is his selling point. If you can't believe that this set can sweep offensive and balanced teams, then you can try and check some of my logs, or ask any decent player to tell you how difficult to handle is the Grass/Fire coverage after your Dragon types and Heatran are gone or weakened or put to sleep.
You know its easy to sweep with mono ice coverage too when all water and steel pokemon are gone but you're making that sound easy! Fact of the matter is X sweeps if Y is gone and currently Y is a huge amount of pokemon and if they have a weather inducer like most teams a mispredict on your part can cause you a wasted turn of Sunny Day or being stuck in Solarbeam. This set isn't a sweeper nor a supporter, its a bad set making you lose momentum and Growth is exponentially better .
The sheer fact that weather starters can come in when Vensaur is Solar Beaming to disrupt your "sweep" and then just switch out without worry to another mon like dragonite or heatran really will eat away any momentum you had. This set looks like unnecessary dead weight with the use of Solar Beam.
A few comments. One, make sure you mention Sludge Bomb in the AC > HP fire, and make sure you somewhat mention Growth > Sleep Powder in the AC. Also, in the teammates and counters section, why is Ninetales a MUST if this set can put out the sun itself? It's not 100% necessary, though I would still never run this without Ninetales support.
Sorry if these things have been mentioned before, but I am too lazy to read the entire thread.
Sorry if these things have been mentioned before, but I am too lazy to read the entire thread.
Some QC input would be nice, 'cause i am tired of saying the same things again and again, to people that don't even understand how this set is played, and don't even bother to look at the logs i provided...
@Steamroll
As i said before, you never use Solarbeam, when the enemy's weather inducer is alive or able to switch in on you. So use it either when you have won the weather war, or when Venusuar uses Sunny Day as the opposing weather inducer comes in... Anyway i believe that the power Solarbeam provides over Energy Ball is worth all the downsides that it brings, especially if you want to sweep late game, and that's why i have put it in the main set. If i see good enough reasoning from people who have used this set right, then i may consider putting Energy Ball in the main set, but as of now, the only guy that has used this set properly is Grimm70, who already mentioned that Solarbeam is the preferred choice.
@blarajan
Added Sludge Bomb in the AC, and everything else you said was already mentioned. About the Ninetales comment, maybe you are right, so i may rephrase it to ''Ninetales support is almost mandatory but it can possibly be used without her'', but i will wait for more input on this one...
@Steamroll
As i said before, you never use Solarbeam, when the enemy's weather inducer is alive or able to switch in on you. So use it either when you have won the weather war, or when Venusuar uses Sunny Day as the opposing weather inducer comes in... Anyway i believe that the power Solarbeam provides over Energy Ball is worth all the downsides that it brings, especially if you want to sweep late game, and that's why i have put it in the main set. If i see good enough reasoning from people who have used this set right, then i may consider putting Energy Ball in the main set, but as of now, the only guy that has used this set properly is Grimm70, who already mentioned that Solarbeam is the preferred choice.
@blarajan
Added Sludge Bomb in the AC, and everything else you said was already mentioned. About the Ninetales comment, maybe you are right, so i may rephrase it to ''Ninetales support is almost mandatory but it can possibly be used without her'', but i will wait for more input on this one...
Ok, I'm a big user of Sunny Day Venusaur, so I thought I would drop by and give my opinion. Sunny Day Venusaur is really a monster -- as Grimm70 pointed out, the opponent oftentimes sacrifices his or her weather inducer as soon as Ninetales dies. At that point, Venusaur can come in late-game and do what it needs; SolarBeam is still powerful without Leftovers. Bri, I don't understand why you're trying to compare this to Growth Venusaur. Growth Venusaur is a late-game sweeper; this functions as a hard-hitter and back-up for sun. SJCrew and Steamroll, you don't use SolarBeam if the opponent has a Politoed with them -- that's not the point. This works like Sunny Day Ninetales except for that this is a better sweeper. You use Sunny Day on the switch and then you find yourself with a free turn that you can take the momentum with. I don't understand why a lot of you are complaining about this set when it is actually very good.
However, I also agree with Grimm70's suggestion about changing the EVs. Sun teams find themselves prey to Choice Scarf Terrakion a lot, and instead of carrying a dedicated wall or Choice Scarf Latios to slow it down, you can simply rely on Venusaur with the spread of 76 HP / 252 SpA / 180 Spe and a Timid nature. With this, you give the sun team a reliable means of dealing with Terrakion in the sun. Additionally, Hidden Power Ice and blarajan's suggestions of Growth and Sludge Bomb should definitely be mentioned somewhere in the AC, as they are great moves in general, especially because Venusaur sometimes needs to be as offensive as possible. This spread should be in the AC because you're not using Chlorophyll to the best of your ability, and Choice Scarf Latios, Choice Scarf Terrakion, and Choice Scarf Landorus, all common threats, outspeed you at the moment. Sure, you can't do too much to Latios, but you can definitely put it to sleep or use Hidden Power Ice or Sludge Bomb if you carry them.
So, basically, I think this deserves its own set. If it does not get its own set, at least let the Growth set be rewritten so that this gets a giant mention, because Sunny Day Venusaur is really very good.
However, I also agree with Grimm70's suggestion about changing the EVs. Sun teams find themselves prey to Choice Scarf Terrakion a lot, and instead of carrying a dedicated wall or Choice Scarf Latios to slow it down, you can simply rely on Venusaur with the spread of 76 HP / 252 SpA / 180 Spe and a Timid nature. With this, you give the sun team a reliable means of dealing with Terrakion in the sun. Additionally, Hidden Power Ice and blarajan's suggestions of Growth and Sludge Bomb should definitely be mentioned somewhere in the AC, as they are great moves in general, especially because Venusaur sometimes needs to be as offensive as possible. This spread should be in the AC because you're not using Chlorophyll to the best of your ability, and Choice Scarf Latios, Choice Scarf Terrakion, and Choice Scarf Landorus, all common threats, outspeed you at the moment. Sure, you can't do too much to Latios, but you can definitely put it to sleep or use Hidden Power Ice or Sludge Bomb if you carry them.
So, basically, I think this deserves its own set. If it does not get its own set, at least let the Growth set be rewritten so that this gets a giant mention, because Sunny Day Venusaur is really very good.
Ok so after Harsha's post, here are the points that need to be discussed:
My answers to these points are the following:
1. Timid shouldn't be the main nature in the set, and should be in the AC, since Leftovers Venusaur needs all the power he can get. Sure outspeeding Scarf Terrakion is very nice for sun teams, but in any game that you don't encounter one, the difference in power will be felt. Also outspeeding Scarf Latios is not so important since even with HP Ice (which isn't in the main set) you do very little damage to it(39.07 - 46.35% to 4 HP Latios), while he ohkoes back.
2. I think my spread is better. Since according to my reasoning Timid is out of the question for the main set, here are the Scarfers that you outspeed with max Speed:
Landorus
Mienshao (rare)
Salamence
Haxorus
Rotom-W
(tell me if i missed any)
Out of those, the only relevant one are Landorus and Rotom-W, which don't even come close to ohkoing with EQ (51.38 - 60.77%) and HP Fire in Sun respectively (54.14 - 64.08%).
Mienshao can't do anything back (34.25 - 40.6% with Stone Edge is the best he can do) and is rare as fuck. ScarfMence walls you since HP Ice is not in the main set, and considering that ScarfMence doesn't come in early game, since he is supposed to be a late game cleaner, Sleep Clause would most likely have been activated. Haxorus also walls you, but at least you can put him to sleep. Also against Haxorus you can never be sure if he is Scarf or Lum Berry, so if you waste a turn to Sleep him, while he ohkoes with Outrage, you are screwed.
So is outspeeding 2 scarfers that can't even do major damage back to you worth it losing all the bulk that 244 HP evs provide, which certainly matters when playing with this Venusaur, as i showed with my logs? Imo, no it isn't.
3. Finally i don't think that Hidden Power Ice should be in the main set, because it is a very weak coverage move, that comes from a medicore unboosted SpA stat, and cannot even kill some of his main targets (Lati@s, Celebi, Hydreigon, BU Breloom, Virizion). The only targets that HP Ice can seriously hurt and ko/almost ko are Dragonite (after SR), Salamence, Landorus (which takes a shitload from Solarbeam anyway), Gliscor (defensive sets can't to anything back, while getting 2hkoed from Solarbeam, while AcroBat Gliscor has a decent chance to get ohkoed from Solarbeam after SR((37.5%)) and this is it, i think.
HP Fire in the other hand gets boosted to an acceptable 105 BP in sun, and actually kills most of the targets it is supposed to, or comes very close in doing so (Ferrothorn, Celebi, Scizor, Skarmory, BU Breloom, Virizion, Forretress, Magnezone, Lucario).
So HP Ice is only worth an AC mention, imo, if your team has problems with ScarfMence and Dragonite.
Anyway i am expecting the QC members to answer to these 3 points, so that we can finally get somewhere with this analysis...
EDIT: @ Harsha
Sludge Bomb, Hidden Power Ice and Growth are all, already in the AC.
- Should Timid be the main nature in the set, with Harsha's ev spread (76 HP / 252 SpA / 180 Spe) to outspeed Scarf Terrakion, and to a lesser extend Scarf base 110 mons (Latios and Gengar)?
- If we decide to go with Modest, then which spread is better, the one in the OP (244 HP / 252 SpA / 12 Spe), or 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe to outspeed any Scarfer with 107 base Speed and below?
- Should i slash Hidden Power Ice with Hidden Power Fire?
My answers to these points are the following:
1. Timid shouldn't be the main nature in the set, and should be in the AC, since Leftovers Venusaur needs all the power he can get. Sure outspeeding Scarf Terrakion is very nice for sun teams, but in any game that you don't encounter one, the difference in power will be felt. Also outspeeding Scarf Latios is not so important since even with HP Ice (which isn't in the main set) you do very little damage to it(39.07 - 46.35% to 4 HP Latios), while he ohkoes back.
2. I think my spread is better. Since according to my reasoning Timid is out of the question for the main set, here are the Scarfers that you outspeed with max Speed:
Landorus
Mienshao (rare)
Salamence
Haxorus
Rotom-W
(tell me if i missed any)
Out of those, the only relevant one are Landorus and Rotom-W, which don't even come close to ohkoing with EQ (51.38 - 60.77%) and HP Fire in Sun respectively (54.14 - 64.08%).
Mienshao can't do anything back (34.25 - 40.6% with Stone Edge is the best he can do) and is rare as fuck. ScarfMence walls you since HP Ice is not in the main set, and considering that ScarfMence doesn't come in early game, since he is supposed to be a late game cleaner, Sleep Clause would most likely have been activated. Haxorus also walls you, but at least you can put him to sleep. Also against Haxorus you can never be sure if he is Scarf or Lum Berry, so if you waste a turn to Sleep him, while he ohkoes with Outrage, you are screwed.
So is outspeeding 2 scarfers that can't even do major damage back to you worth it losing all the bulk that 244 HP evs provide, which certainly matters when playing with this Venusaur, as i showed with my logs? Imo, no it isn't.
3. Finally i don't think that Hidden Power Ice should be in the main set, because it is a very weak coverage move, that comes from a medicore unboosted SpA stat, and cannot even kill some of his main targets (Lati@s, Celebi, Hydreigon, BU Breloom, Virizion). The only targets that HP Ice can seriously hurt and ko/almost ko are Dragonite (after SR), Salamence, Landorus (which takes a shitload from Solarbeam anyway), Gliscor (defensive sets can't to anything back, while getting 2hkoed from Solarbeam, while AcroBat Gliscor has a decent chance to get ohkoed from Solarbeam after SR((37.5%)) and this is it, i think.
HP Fire in the other hand gets boosted to an acceptable 105 BP in sun, and actually kills most of the targets it is supposed to, or comes very close in doing so (Ferrothorn, Celebi, Scizor, Skarmory, BU Breloom, Virizion, Forretress, Magnezone, Lucario).
So HP Ice is only worth an AC mention, imo, if your team has problems with ScarfMence and Dragonite.
Anyway i am expecting the QC members to answer to these 3 points, so that we can finally get somewhere with this analysis...
EDIT: @ Harsha
Sludge Bomb, Hidden Power Ice and Growth are all, already in the AC.
I don't know why this set needs more bulk than the other, standard offensive Venusaur sets on-site. This set is an offensive threat first and foremost, giving up Growth for the ability to more reliably fire-off Solarbeams and stopping Tyranitar switching in on you as easily. I think the fact that all 3 of the RMTs you highlighted in the OP all have max SAtk / max Spd should be a hint.
EDIT: Harsha's EV spread + HP Ice shouldn't be the main set. All of the on-site offensive Venusaur sets are susceptible to Scarf Terrakion and Dragons and just have a +Spd nature mention in AC, so I don't know why this set would be an exception to that. It isn't designed to beat Scarf Terrakion or dragons, so HP Ice and Timid should just be AC.
EDIT: Harsha's EV spread + HP Ice shouldn't be the main set. All of the on-site offensive Venusaur sets are susceptible to Scarf Terrakion and Dragons and just have a +Spd nature mention in AC, so I don't know why this set would be an exception to that. It isn't designed to beat Scarf Terrakion or dragons, so HP Ice and Timid should just be AC.
Of 'course the teams i mentioned only strengthen the point of a speedy spread being better (as most Venusaur are), but this doesn't mean that i shouldn't express my opinion right? I already gave my reasoning as to why i think the added bulk is better, and also have provided logs showing why the bulk is very helpful.
Also you ask why extra bulk would be any help in this Venusaur, while all the other offensive Venusaur on-site use max speed. And my answer is because this Venusaur will be setting up Sunny Day throughout the match, and many times he will need to take a hit, unlike the other Venusaur, that put something to sleep, use Growth as the opponent switches out, and then sweep. If during the late game, Venusaur is at 40-50%, without any HP evs, he will be easy pray for any priority user, and Scarf Terrakion, while my spread takes 35% or less from many pokes that he forces out, meaning that even if he does take the hit, he can still easily survive that crucial priority hit in the endgame, or a Stone Edge from a Scarf Terrakion...
I never said slash Hidden Power Ice. In fact, if you look at my post, it says mention it in the AC. I think beating Choice Scarf Terrakion is a valid reason to use a Speed-enhancing nature, but that's obviously up for other people to decide. Still, I don't think sacrificing all of that Speed for bulk is necessary.
I am not asking about slashing HP Ice in the main set because of you, it is a general question i wanted to make.
Also i know that you prefer the extra speed, but some extra reasoning except ''outspeeding Scarf Terrakion is nice'' would be good no? I already gave my points in details, so i would like anyone that answers to the 3 main bullets i put, to do the same...
O.k
I have tested this set myself and its not actually that bad of a set, however, I dislike the current set / EV spread you have posted. Therefore I have a few changes that I personally would like to suggest
-Energy Ball over Solarbeam
I really really support this if only because it makes dealing with Politoed and Tyrantitar much easier. With Energy Ball, you don't get locked, and can actually use your STAB under less welcoming weather.
-Better EV Spread
I don't actually see why your set is running so much bulk over the other Venusaur sets. When I used Venusaur, revenging faster shit was more useful to me than the added bulk. I would much rather see 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe as the main option here.
-Slash Sludge Bomb with Sleep Powder
Grass / Fire has pretty average coverage, and Sludge Bomb helps hit the dragon types that attempt to switch into you (and I preferred throwing out a Sludge Bomb when Hax / Dragonite were on the team since Lum is so common now). It gets STAB, nice chance for poison, and I want you to slash it with Sleep Powder.
Do this and I will give it a stamp
I have tested this set myself and its not actually that bad of a set, however, I dislike the current set / EV spread you have posted. Therefore I have a few changes that I personally would like to suggest
-Energy Ball over Solarbeam
I really really support this if only because it makes dealing with Politoed and Tyrantitar much easier. With Energy Ball, you don't get locked, and can actually use your STAB under less welcoming weather.
-Better EV Spread
I don't actually see why your set is running so much bulk over the other Venusaur sets. When I used Venusaur, revenging faster shit was more useful to me than the added bulk. I would much rather see 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe as the main option here.
-Slash Sludge Bomb with Sleep Powder
Grass / Fire has pretty average coverage, and Sludge Bomb helps hit the dragon types that attempt to switch into you (and I preferred throwing out a Sludge Bomb when Hax / Dragonite were on the team since Lum is so common now). It gets STAB, nice chance for poison, and I want you to slash it with Sleep Powder.
Do this and I will give it a stamp
Echoing what ginganinja said. Venusaur does "sweeping" way better than he does "tanking and supporting". This is not to mention that the teams that you linked in your OP all use the fast spread and basically everyone and their mother is telling you to use it. I personally do think the bulk has merit, but I think an AC mention should surfice. Energy Ball is also much more reliable than SolarBeam. I'll accept if you do what ginga says.
To both Shrang and ginganinja.
I know well that anyone is supporting the speedy set, and i am very willing to change it, i just need reasons to do so.
I already gave mine:
So the only thing i want to hear is, if outspeeding the scarfers that you do with max Speed, worth the speed loss, considerng that most of them cannot even ohko you, or come close in doing so...
Also ginganinja you want me to put Solarbeam in AC, and make Energy Ball the main slash? I am just asking, because from my experience, and the experience of the players that used this set to great success, Solarbeam seems like a better option, since Venusaur needs the extra power. I want you to consider keeping Solarbeam in the main set, and slashing Energy Ball with it...
Also are you and Shrang QC members? Just asking, because i can't find you in the list...
I know well that anyone is supporting the speedy set, and i am very willing to change it, i just need reasons to do so.
I already gave mine:
Also ginganinja you want me to put Solarbeam in AC, and make Energy Ball the main slash? I am just asking, because from my experience, and the experience of the players that used this set to great success, Solarbeam seems like a better option, since Venusaur needs the extra power. I want you to consider keeping Solarbeam in the main set, and slashing Energy Ball with it...
Also are you and Shrang QC members? Just asking, because i can't find you in the list...
Yes, yee, ginganinja, and shrang are new OU QC members!
I also agree with alexwolf to stick with SolarBeam here. Venusaur loses A LOT of power by opting for Energy Ball (think Lava Plume vs Fire Blast). The beauty of this set is having Sunny Day to fire SolarBeam with more reliability than Growth Venusaur without the set-up move.
I also agree with alexwolf to stick with SolarBeam here. Venusaur loses A LOT of power by opting for Energy Ball (think Lava Plume vs Fire Blast). The beauty of this set is having Sunny Day to fire SolarBeam with more reliability than Growth Venusaur without the set-up move.
I have no problems with SolarBeam being in the moveslot, but only as a 2nd slash only. While yes, it's much stronger and Venusaur generally needs the power, it is just so damn unreliable. One wrong move and you're potentially stuffed, since you're locked into a charging move, which in the wrong weather would weaken the attack, even. I'd say have Energy Ball / SolarBeam in that order. Explain the benefits of using SolarBeam, but also warn about its major drawbacks.