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Pokémon Venusaur

Discussion in 'OverUsed' started by azureleaf17, Oct 16, 2013.

  1. azureleaf17

    azureleaf17

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    [​IMG]
    Pokedex Number
    - 003
    Type - Grass/Poison
    Base Stats - 80 HP / 82 Atk / 83 Def / 100 SpAtk / 100 SpDef / 80 Spe
    Base Stats (ME) - 80 HP / 100 Atk / 123 Def / 122 SpAtk / 120 SpDef / 80 Spe

    Ability - Overgrow [Powers up Grass-type moves when the Pokémon is in trouble]
    Ability (DW) - Chlorophyll [Boosts the Pokémon's Speed in sunshine]:
    Ability (ME) - Thick Fat [Ups resistance to Fire- and Ice-type moves]

    Notable Moves:
    Growth
    Synthesis
    Giga Drain
    Sludge Bomb
    Sleep Powder
    Stun Spore
    Leech Seed
    Petal Blizzard
    Earthquake
    Knock Off

    Overview
    Game change mechanics have not been friendly to this jolly green giant. With nerfs to weather and Hidden Power and a reversal of the Sleep status from Gen V mechanics back to Gen IV, it seems like every major overall change has plotted to throw Venusaur out of its brief, single-generation stint in OU.

    But there may be a ray of light remaining for Venusaur. It was one of a number of existing Pokemon to gain a Mega Evolution, which essentially trades in a Pokemon's ability to hold an item in exchange for massive alterations in the form of new abilities and boosted stats. Instead of the obscene boosts to a couple of stats that many other Mega Evolutions boast, Mega Venusaur's stat changes are more evenly spread out. It has improved offenses AND defenses, which allow it to tank hits on both ends of the spectrum with 80/123/120 defenses while firing off powerful hits from 100 Attack and 122 Special Attack. In addition, its new ability, Thick Fat, negates its once-glaring weaknesses to Fire- and Ice-type attacks. Although it only has four resistances, it also has just two weaknesses and immunities to Toxic, Leech Seed, and Spore. Thanks to Game Freak's attempt to balance out some of the weaker types, Poison (and therefore Venusaur) has also been given a shiny new fifth resistance to the heralded Fairy-type. Stall has been given a chance to breathe from the hyper-offensive style of Generation V, and Venusaur may have evolved in order to remain a viable option even under the new mechanics offered by Generation VI.

    Mega Venusaur (Special Tank)
    Venusaur @ Venusaurite
    Ability: Chlorophyll (Thick Fat)
    IVs: 252 HP / 252 SpAtk / 4 SpDef
    Nature: Modest
    - Synthesis
    - Giga Drain
    - Sludge Bomb
    - Hidden Power Fire / Hidden Power Ice / Sleep Powder

    Mega Venusaur (Physical Tank)
    Venusaur @ Venusaurite
    Ability: Chlorophyll (Thick Fat)
    IVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpDef
    Nature: Adamant
    - Synthesis
    - Power Whip / Petal Blizzard
    - Earthquake
    - Sleep Powder

    Mega Venusaur (Mixed Tank)
    Venusaur @ Venusaurite
    Ability: Chlorophyll (Thick Fat)
    IVs: 252 HP / ?? Atk / ?? SpAtk
    Nature: Brave
    - Synthesis
    - Giga Drain / Power Whip / Petal Blizzard
    - Sludge Bomb
    - Earthquake

    With very good 100/122 offenses, Venusaur can effectively pull off attacking in any way you want while still being able to take hits very well. Three sets that work very similarly, but have different counters depending on what variation you're running. The first is the strongest, the second will probably be the least expected, and the last has the most coverage. With the nerf to rain and sand, Synthesis is much more reliable. On the physically offensive set, Power Whip is probably the better move due to the increased power and Venusaur's ability to tank a hit even if it misses, but if reliability is an issue, Petal Blizzard is always an option.

    Mega Venusaur (Stall)
    Venusaur @ Venusaurite
    Ability: Chlorophyll (Thick Fat)
    IVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpDef
    Nature: Calm / Bold
    - Synthesis
    - Giga Drain
    - Leech Seed
    - Toxic / Substitute / Sleep Powder / Sludge Bomb

    If running a stall team, Mega Venusaur has good reason to take up the Mega Evolution spot. Although it sadly lacks Leftovers, having just two weaknesses as well as resistances to five common attacking types and immunities to many popular status-inducing moves is a very good advantage. This version of Mega Venusaur does have a bit of 4MSS, but very balanced stats allow it to absorb hits while chipping away at the opponent and recovering HP with nearly every move. It can run a physically defensive set as well, but most Psychic-types moves as well as half of all Flying-types moves are special attacks.

    Chlorophyll
    Venusaur @ Black Sludge / Life Orb
    Ability: Chlorophyll
    IVs: 72 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA / 180 Spe
    Nature: Timid
    - Sunny Day / Growth
    - Giga Drain
    - Hidden Power Fire
    - Sleep Powder / Sludge Bomb

    The set that terrorized opponents of sun teams across Generation V. With the EV's given, it gives anti-Special Attack Download boosts, survives an Ice Shard from Adamant Mamoswine even after Stealth Rock, outspeeds Scarf Base 110 Speed and (perhaps more notably this generation) positive-natured Base 130 Speed Pokemon under the sun, and still packs maximum power. Even with the nerfs to sun this generation, being the best sun sweeper ever created is still an awesome thing to see.

    Final Thoughts:
    Venusaur has changed immensely not because it gained a new Mega Evolution, but because the changes to the game around it have forced it to take on an almost completely new role from what it was in Generation V. Hopefully it will stay a strong contender in OU, but Generation VI will force players to get used to a completely different playstyle should they choose to remain faithful to Venusaur.
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2014
  2. Monte Cristo

    Monte Cristo avatar by user arhops- a god more based than CTC
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    the stall set should be put into 3 different sets: physical wall sdef wall and mixed wall, will specificate on the sets when I get on my compter
  3. Shroomisaur

    Shroomisaur Smogon's fantastical fun-guy.

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    One of my favorite Pokemon (in case that wasn't obvious). It's funny how much has changed for Saur this generation. Last generation it relied on the Sun to be a fast sweeper, and without infinite Sun it's looking for different roles. And just like that, its Mega-evolution is one of the few Mega's suited for tanking! Thick Fat looks boring on paper, but it's a huge bonus. With only uncommon Psychic and Flying weaknesses, Megasaur is going to be a great stall Pokemon.

    Are those numbers listed for Mega correct and confirmed? The data thread has 80/102/123/100/120/100 listed, so I'm a bit confused.
    Luigifan, Magicfire and Monte Cristo like this.
  4. mrglass

    mrglass

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    Venusaur is very interesting because it has so many options.
    You could really keep your opponent on their toes by running a Klefki, Charizard, and Venusaur.

    You could be running weather from Klefki, and using SP on Zard (has the benefit of running a specs set over Y) and Chlorophyll on Saur. Or you could be running weather off Zard Y with Chlorophyll on Saur.
    Or you could be running SP Zard with Stall or Tank Mega Saur. Or Zard X with Chlorophyll Saur.
  5. Bugzy

    Bugzy

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    How will the new grassy terrain move effect Venusaur?

    Move description on serebii: "The user turns the ground under everyone's feet to grass for five turns. This restores the HP of Pokémon on the ground a little every turn."
    I also found a sign in game that said grassy terrain boosts the power of grass type moves 50%.

    I don't know who learns this new move, I have a Venusaur in game and he doesn't seem to learn it, but it sounds interesting.
    I know People often say mega Venusaur isn't a good tank because no leftovers but maybe this would help mitigate that. Also what about ingrain on a tanking mega Venusuar? Could that be good?
  6. Millky95

    Millky95

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    It shouldn't need Lefties with Giga Drain+Synthesis and a possible Leech Seed
  7. Helldoom

    Helldoom

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    Great addition to stall. Basically a better version of Celebi. Grass/poison typing with thick fat is fantastic. No leftovers sucks, but you still have leech seed, giga drain and synthesis.
  8. adrian2040

    adrian2040

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    Why give the stall Mega Venusaur build a Brave nature? Its offensive moves all depend on the Special Attack stat.
  9. crazy_man

    crazy_man

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    How about a Curse set?

    Mega Venusaur (Curse Tank)
    Venusaur @ Venusaurite
    Chlorophyll (Thick Fat) | Careful
    252 HP / 252 SpD / 4 Def
    Curse
    Synthesis
    Earthquake
    Petal Blizzard

    Any thoughts? About to breed one with a Ferrothron to test this set out.
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2013
    Michael Torres likes this.
  10. Jaroda

    Jaroda

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    Damn I wanted to do this mon lol.

    Mega Venusaur has me so excited. I love this guy, and Thick Fat was just the ability it wanted. It's typing is going to be great in the new meta with Fighting, Fairy and Water resists. It's essentially only weak to Flying and Psychic now. Probably the Megamon of choice for stall teams.

    Venusaur@Venasaurite
    Bold/Careful
    252 Df / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
    Substitute
    Leech Seed/Synthesis
    Stun Spore/Toxic
    Sludge Bomb/Giga Drain/???

    Stun Spore to get the speed advantage and big defenses and little HP for lots of Substitutes. You can only get so many uses out of Synthesis unfortunately.
    Luigifan likes this.
  11. JSND

    JSND

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    One sentence response with regards to Mega Venusaur

    Lol Keldeo

    Neutral to Ice, and resistance to its STAB really?

    Anyway, the thing that make Venusaur more interesting this gen is Fairy Type. STAB Sludge Bomb might be able to dent most Fairy types bar Klefki, and it is a huge threat with the off chance it uses Sleep Powder
    Luigifan and Patrick1088 like this.
  12. azureleaf17

    azureleaf17

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    Cut/paste mistake. Fixed!

    I forgot about the fact that Fairy-type is resisted by Venusaur and that it can hit back for SE damage. This may be what Venusaur needs to give it an extra oomph.
    Luigifan likes this.
  13. crazy_man

    crazy_man

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    Would be more awesome if Venusaur had a strong physical poison move, as most fairys have good special defense (hence why the more physical oriented steel moves wrecks fairy) but good none the less.

    Any opinion on the Curse Mega Venusaur?
    Luigifan likes this.
  14. Jaroda

    Jaroda

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    Oh dip he gets Curse?

    Megasaur@Venasaurite
    Thick Fat
    Sassy 252 HP / 4 Df / 252 SpD
    ~ Curse
    ~ Earthquake/Outrage
    ~ Petal Blizzard
    ~ Synthesis/Giga Drain

    Gar 4 moveslot syndrome! If he runs curse he NEEDS Synthesis for recovery which only leaves two attack moves. Though Giga Drain yields offensive healing as well as mixed attacking, despite mediocre damage. Outrage is... interesting, if something like Char X or Latios tries to come in. As someone pointed out Fairies may take no damage from an Outrage and can switch in safely, but that stops you from getting confused and able to attack with Petal Blizzard. There are no particularly physically bulky Fairies yet. PetalQuake is probably it's best option though, although then Flying dragons become a problem. You'd have to Curse enough to just muscle through. You could run Outrage, EQ AND Giga Drain though... Grr, this is probably more frustrating than it's worth.

    EDIT:

    Megasaur@Venasuarite
    Thick Fat
    Bold 252 HP / 252 Df / 4 SpD
    ~ Amnesia/Light Screen
    ~ Leech Seed/Synthesis
    ~ Toxic
    ~ Giga Drain/Energy Ball

    These mixed defenses will let it outlast anything outside of Steels, so a trapper would be a good partner. I think this will be enough to wear most teams down since Physical Flying moves are still uncommon compared to other attack types. Amnesia will help against most Psychic users. Outside Magic Bounce of course.
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2013
  15. azureleaf17

    azureleaf17

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    CurseSaur sounds like something from the GSC era x)

    The only problem I see with your Curse set is coverage. Grass/Ground is not a very good dual attacking core, because there are three common types (Flying, Bug, and Grass itself) that resist or are immune to it. It may get better if it gets a better physical attacking coverage move, but even then, Grass is not the best attacking type to try to use as one of only two attacks on an attacking Pokemon. It's resisted by seven types, making it hard to match with something that can really cover everything. Curse may give it the extra punch it needs to break through walls, but set-up has been underwhelming before.

    In the past, things like Breloom with Grass/Fighting only got by because the two STABs it got were multi-hitting (Bullet Seed), priority (Mach Punch), and boosted by Technician and aided by Spore. Attacking Torterra (Grass/Ground) never ran its two STABs without Stone Edge to hit two of the three things resisting said STABs for SE damage and hit the last for neutral damage.

    But I love all the old RBY relics, so another good set for Venusaur would be awesome. You say you're testing it, yes? I think you would have more experience with CurseSaur than me, so let us know if that experiment is successful :)
    Luigifan likes this.
  16. crazy_man

    crazy_man

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    If by testing you mean breeding while hoping for nice IV's atm then yes. ;p

    I was looking at this at a more tank view than sweeping, would these mixed defenses have any advantage over physical/special focused tank builds?

    If not I'll be sticking with the special tank build.

    Synthesis + Leech Seed + Giga Drain = DAT HEALIN
  17. Jaroda

    Jaroda

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    SpD EVs compensate for the pokemon the will inevitably try to attack your unboosted special side. If you don't care about longevity though what's to stop you from simply using a mixed Growth set? EQ / Sludge Bomb / Petal Blizzard is far better mixed coverage. But by all means try a 252 HP / 252 At variant with Curse.
  18. Aldrius

    Aldrius

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    They didn't nerf Venusaur, they nerfed weather. And Venusaur was an OU pokemon mainly for it's use on sun teams. What's gonna decide it's status this generation is it's mega-evolution's worth and whether or not sweepers can still be effective with only five turns to take advantage of their boosted stats. (Though in Venusaur's case, once it gets some momentum with a couple of growths it'd still have very effective attacking stats.)

    Honestly, with how powerful they are I can't see a single mega evolution going below BL, they're just too powerful.

    One idea I've just sort of been toying with is using Venusaur's traditional chlorophyll set (with venusaurite equipped), using it to get a couple of growth boosts under it's belt and to threaten out the opponent, then when the sun's gone, mega evolve and you've got a boosted, bulky sweeper that's not going to have to deal with the boosted fire type attacks coming it's way.

    Probably not viable, but it's the kind of strategic thinking I hope mega evolutions will bring to the table.
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2013
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  19. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
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    False. I don't see any reason why sand will be less common in 6th gen, and not having reliable recovery in 3/4 of your games or whatever is the combined usage of Ttar + Hippo sucks. Not having Leftovers and Natural Cure to deal with Water-types sucks. Losing 25% of your life every time you switch in if you are burned (SR + burn) sucks. Celebi also has Nasty Plot + Baton Pass over MegaVenusaur. It's also a better pivot thanks to U-turn/Baton Pass and has Perish Song too. Celebi is still looking as the better defensive Grass-type by a big margin imo.
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  20. Mattman324

    Mattman324

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    It is, to be fair, but not by a "big margin". Venusaur has things Celebi could only dream of, and I'm not just referring to the fact that it is neutral against Ice and Fire.
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  21. Aldrius

    Aldrius

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    If you want to be offensive with Venusaur, you're better off using Chlorophyll on a sun team. I think MegaVenusaur's use will be geared more towards subseeding and taking hits for whatever your chosen fire-type is.

    Venusaur has better defensive stats and an arguably better typing. It also isn't as vulnerable to a lot of types. Not saying Mega Venusaur is better, but it does have it's advantages. Honestly, it's going to come down to what your team is vulnerable to.
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  22. Shroomisaur

    Shroomisaur Smogon's fantastical fun-guy.

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    Sand is obviously going to be less common simply because of the weather nerf. It was often used previously because with infinite sand you could slowly wear down the opponent. Now with duration down to 5 turns, it's not going to be as effective. Regardless, if we're talking about Megasaur versus the sand-starters, those are very favorable matchups.

    If we're comparing Megasaur and Celebi, I agree that Celebi's natural cure and lefties alone are certainly reason enough for her to stand out. Megasaur trades those and Celebi's unique moves for higher base stats and a much better typing, so they both have their strengths. Neither is completely "better" by a "big margin".
    The_Derpy_Chicken and Luigifan like this.
  23. crazy_man

    crazy_man

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    In Gen V the 1-3 turns of sleep reset if you switched out, now its back to Gen IV terms by not resetting. No idea if its 1-4 turns again tho.
  24. Youngchris17

    Youngchris17

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    i prefer the more offensive Venusaur as he is quite capable of running with ubers, although blaziken is the only legally clarified uber thats a starter
  25. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
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    As i said again, leftovers + reliable recovery + Natural Cure are godsends for a defensive Pokemon, especially to one that wants to switch into water-types. This fact cannot be understated and is the biggest reason why Celebli still remains as the best defensive Pokemon. Viable defensive Pokemon without Leftovers and reliable recovery are far and between in OU, so Mega Venusaur will need to have a lot going for it to ovecome those cons, as a defensive Pokemon. Also, Celebi wins in the support department too, with moves such as U-turn, Baton Pass, Perish Song, and Heal Bell. Once again, i am comparing their roles as walls, not tanks. As a tank, Mega Venusaur could be better, i am not really sure.
    Celebi has roughly the same bulk with Mega Venusaur before factoring Leftovers. With Leftovers, Celebi is the bulkier Pokemon. The only thing Mega Venusaur has over Celebi is that it has fewer weaknesses, which although not a small pro, is not enough to overcome Celebi's superiority in both the survivability and support areas.
    Sand was almost never used for its direct benefits. It was used either to stop the effects of rain and sun or to take advantage of the perfectly viable Pokemon that were Hippowdon and Tyranitar. Residual damage was never the reason that sand was used. Regardless, opposing weather or not, Tyranitar and Hippowdon are still beasts on their own rights and are some of the best Pokemon in their roles, so it's guaranteed they will see a lot of usage. And i never talked about how Mega Venusaur fares against the sand inducers.
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