VGC '11 Team (Atlanta)

[Ashenlock]

Hi all,​

I’ve been around for a while, mostly doing double battles, so I was very pleased years ago when I saw that VGC 08 was going to be a doubles-based tournament. I didn’t participate in it, or in either of the two years since, but I plan to drive to Atlanta this June and duke it out in that Regional. But like the years before, the VGC staff is kind of quirky, and decided on the strange “Unova only lol” rule. So my options are a little more limited, but that’s not a bad thing necessarily. So I started teambuilding.​

I have a fetish for theme-based teams or something, because every one seems to have a motif or common thread that it’s focused around. First a Psych Up team, then a Rain Dance team, then an Endeavor team, then a Drought team... they all fared well enough, but when I saw a crippling weakness I decided just to scrap them and go for the type of team that would beat the type that just beat me.​

With VGC coming up, I had decided to make a Tailwind team that could shut down Trick Room and sweep. I found that Tailwind didn’t last long enough even in the 4v4 format, that the foe just KO’d my Chandelure if it Imprisoned Trick Room, that the near-ubiquitous Protect stalled out the three-turn speed boost, and that enough people had seen Tailwind to know it was coming and shut it down accordingly.​

So I’ve moved around some Pokemon and made what I believe is a balanced team. It doesn’t have a “theme” as far as I know, except that it’s (theoretically) capable of stopping other players’ setup. I’m hoping I can get some input of ANY kind, whether it’s “This move ought to be replaced” or “This Pokemon needs to be ditched entirely” or whatever. So don’t hold back; if it’s utter crap, you’ll be doing me a favor by telling me so. To wit:​

At a glance​

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Whimsicott @ Focus Sash
TIMID
+Prankster+
6 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
-Encore
-Fake Tears
-Grass Knot
-Protect​

Whimsicott is the wildcard of the VGC metagame. At least 12 circumstantially usable moves inhabit its arsenal. I tremble seeing one on any team, and have to look to the other members for a clue. Is it going to use Beat Up on Terrakion? Are my Fake Out / Protect users going to have to switch afterwards, in fear of Encore? Whimsicott is a whole new ball game compared to any Unova counterpart.​

Mine originally carried Tailwind, and was shared the centerpiece role with a now nonexistent Tornadus. I feel now that the immense speed boost is a little wasted; most of the Pokemon I would use in such a team are already fairly fast, and could probably beat their opponents when applied correctly. Instead, Whimsicott plays a hybrid shutdown/support role here. Encore is the bane of Fake Out and Protect, and expends many foes’ valuable turns switching out to nullify it. On the other hand, Fake Tears helps my special attack-force hit neutral-typed foes for >100% damage. Grass Knot is in there to help out, but is mostly for sudden-death scenarios: I’ve played enough lost matches to know that attackless Whimsicott isn’t going to beat ANY foe in a 1v1 encounter. Protect, of course, is self explanatory.​

The item is a little iffy. Ideally, I’d have Mental Herb on both Whimsicott and Mienshao, but it was not to be. Besides, seasoned VGC ‘11 players expect Whimsicott to be immune to their Taunt; that foreknowledge helps Whimsicott out like a placebo. On the other hand, even if the opponent *knows* Whimsicott has a Focus Sash, they can’t do much besides hit it till it dies.​

Mienshao @ Mental Herb
JOLLY
+Inner Focus+
6 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
-Fake Out
-Drain Punch
-Feint
-Protect​

The Shaolin weasel has become a staple in Unova-exclusive play due to having a fast Fake Out and Doubles-oriented moves like Wide Guard. It sits around Singles looking fly because it gets the powerful Hi Jump Kick, but as many players know, the abundance of Protect users in Doubles makes the Jump Kicks a liability. And Wide Guard/Quick Guard, in spite of seeming designed to be abused in doubles, find limited use due to an opportunity cost that many players do not want to pay.​

I settled on the above four moves after a while in deliberation. They don’t provide much type coverage--Ghosts absolutely wall this set--but thanks to team preview this is a remedied problem. Like most of the team Mienshao is a niche Pokemon, designed to KO certain threats and frustrate the efforts of others with Fake Out and Feint.​

The Mental Herb is an unexpected godsend for Mienshao. I find that most players pass up Encore-ing the Protect’d user and go for the one that used Fake Out, perhaps because a Pokemon can actually do something with Encore’d Protect. This gives Mienshao an extra turn, basically, although he’s deprived of the Focus Sash with which he has become so familiar.​

Archeops @ Flying Gem
JOLLY
+Defeatist+
6 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
-Acrobatics
-Rock Slide
-Quick Attack
-Protect​

Archeops packs a wallop. A surprising number of Unova Pokemon are susceptible to flying: Amoongus, Conkeldurr, Mienshao, Whimsicott, and Scrafty, to name some of the dominant ones. A surprising number are also KO’d by a neutral Acrobatics, or even a spread-out Rock Slide.​

This set is nothing surprising, generic almost by necessity. Previous use of Archeops has proven these to be the most useful moves, in spite of its vivid, colorful, tempting movepool. Rock Slide hurts the Prankster genies and provides flinchax from the sky, and from an actually fast user. Quick Attack is questionable, but takes down Sashers and low-Defense Pokemon who perhaps were previously wounded by a resisted Rock Slide, or something of the like.​

Chandelure @ Choice Scarf
MODEST
+Flash Fire+
6 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
-Heat Wave
-Shadow Ball
-Hidden Power [Ice 70]
-Overheat​

After some playtesting I’ve found that Chandelure without a Scarf can make some big dents in its foes, if they don’t KO it first. Unfortunately that ‘if’ constitutes a lot of battles, many of which were lost to other Chandelures in a speed-tie duel.​

Chandelure formerly wore a Fire Gem, but it never saw that ideal scenario, the one where both enemies took neutral or supereffective damage from Heat Wave. So Chandelure basically has the same power without a Gem, and with speed to spare. Shadow Ball still hurts the ever common Ghost- and Psychic-type Pokemon as much as it used to, and, in tandem with Flying Gem Acrobatics, stops the infamous Amoongus + Reuniclus Trick Room setup.​

HP Ice was a tough decision, but I figured the effects of Fighting and Rock were basically covered by other members. It hits Dragons decently, but mainly KOs the otherwise dangerous Landorus if it isn’t wearing a Yache Berry. Overheat is there for the final stretch, since Chandelure is one Pokemon liable to appear in the beginning of battle and be switched out only to reappear at the end.​

Thundurus @ Life Orb
TIMID
+Prankster+
6 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
-Thunderbolt
-Hidden Power [Flying 70]
-Thunder Wave
-Protect​

Recognized as a top-tier threat in Singles, he’s often forgotten in Doubles for his partner in crime Tornadus and his Tailwind access. But it’s partially because of Tailwind that Thundurus shines, crippling the speed boost’s abusers with priority Thunder Wave before they even get the effect in place. Some say Taunt is the bane of Tailwind, but if you’re in for the long haul, Thunder Wave does the trick even better.​

HP Flying is seldom seen in any metagame. However, Thundurus finds a place for it in the VGC, where Fighting-type Pokemon are abundant and often carry Rock Slide. It also hits Amoongus and Whimsicott harder than HP Ice. Thunderbolt is the generic strong STAB move, and while few common VGC Pokemon take SE hits from it, it puts Jellicent back in its place.​

Hydreigon @ Dragon Gem
TIMID
+Levitate+
6 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
-Draco Meteor
-Dark Pulse
-Thunder Wave
-Protect​

I see few Hydreigon in the VGC metagame. Perhaps that is because there are only two other dragons to hit supereffectively with dragon attacks, or that its role as a Psychic/Ghost/Grass hitter is overshadowed by Chandelure, or maybe I’m just missing all the good battles. But either way Hydreigon is not to be forgotten in the highest Unova echelons.​

There is no word to describe the unmitigated force of STAB, Gem-boosted Draco Meteor. It OHKOs most things that don’t resist it and leaves a respectable dent in things that do. Hydreigon doesn’t really have a “niche;” it’s there for the questionable foes who may or may not pack a surprise.​

Thunder Wave in the third slot may be a surprise. “Why no Flamethrower?” Well, the big threats that Flamethrower/Fire Blast hit hard are hit harder by Acrobatics/Heat Wave. An extra T-Waver is a boon in a team trying to beat other teams that utilize the limited-time effects of Tailwind and Trick
Room.​

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As stated somewhere up at the top, feel free to tell me what you think can change. I don’t bite. On the other hand, if you think it’s fine the way it is, hell, you’re free to tell me that too. Thanks for reading.​

 

[steven27738]

I am not looking forward to seeing you in Atlanta lol. This team looks great, and extremely well thought out. Plus, your Whimsicott lead is the varient that often wrecks my team at the moment.

I do have a question about Feint, though. I know Protect runs rampant this year and is the staple move, but how often DO you use Feint?

 

[Ashenlock]

Thank you for the compliment! I still look forward to seeing you and anyone else from Smogon in Atlanta.

I've never had Feint on a set before, but I've gotten very little use of of Wide Guard and Rock Slide, the two alternatives I've seen on Mienshao. If you have a suggestion otherwise please tell me, I'm not 100% set on it.

 

[steven27738]

I've seen alot of successful Mienshao with Acrobatics, but I know that it isn't guaranteed that the Mental Herb will be used so it probably won't reach it's full potential.

Aside from some generic support moves like Substitute, Relfect and Swords Dance, it does get U-turn, although that's more for Regenerator sets, and Rock Slide coverage but you already stated it didn't get much use.

I'm not saying Feint is an bad choice [and if used correctly could totally f*ck many people over], just not sure if another option might be better.

 

[Admiral Kuzan]

Your Whimsicott demolishes my team, and a Feint Mienshao! Wow, never seen anything like it. I don't think Mental Herb is the best item. Not saying it's bad. It might not be used. Great team, but I do feel bad for Steven over there, he has to battle you in Atlanta.

 

[Ashenlock]

Thank you for the compliments, but i haven't been having as much success with a couple of them. I'm thinking about replacing Mienshao and Whimsicott with these two:

Conkeldurr @ Flame Orb
BRAVE
+Guts+
252 HP / 252 Atk / 6 SpD
-Drain Punch
-Mach Punch
-Rock Slide
-Protect

The only thing I feel Mienshao really, truly has over other VGC fighting-types is Fake Out, and although it has traditionally been an integral move in Double Battles, it doesn't really stop setup very well when fighting against Unova Pokemon. Chandelure and Jellicent, prime Trick Room users, are immune to it; Tornadus and Whimsicott can just use Tailwind next turn, after being flinched. Its Rock Slide is too weak to make a dent in anything, Feint is risky and used too little, and I'll often block a Water Spout or Heat Wave with Wide Guard one turn only to see it used next turn, unabated. Drain Punch provides poor coverage alone, and doesn't hit neutrals hard enough.

Conkeldurr is much different. Drain Punch's secondary effect of healing HP is actually USEFUL here, recovering the bits lost by its burn. Mach Punch compensates for its low speed if it isn't in Trick Room conditions; if it is, it rolls over anything "slower" than it, especially Chandelure and Scrafty. Immunity to status means it won't fear Amoongus, even though the latter outspeeds it in Trick Room. It still fears Acrobatics, but shouldn't have to face the lethal flyers since they usually don't inhabit Trick Room (Eelektross is still kind of a problem, but I don't think its Acrobatics OHKOs).

Amoonguss @ Mental Herb/Black Sludge
RELAXED
+Effect Spore+
???
-Rage Powder
-Spore
-Giga Drain
-Protect

Whimsicott, I find, is surpisingly predictable. You could say its so influential that most teams have built-in defenses to take care of it. If I see an obvious Trick Room user, I don't bother Taunting it because it's going to have Mental Herb, or Encore-ing it because it's going to switch that turn. Grass Knot is really only there for Terrakion and Jellicent.

Amoonguss isn't as much a "replacement" for Whimsicott as Conkeldurr is for Mienshao. Its function is also supporter/enfeebler, but in a much different way. Sporebombing is very potent, and will ruin "slower" opponents in Trick Room conditions. Rage Powder seems almost necessary, though I can't think of any scenarios that it would really be used in this party.

I didn't really dominate Trick Room teams like I thought I would with this one. When I thought a Chandelure was carrying a Mental Herb and attacked it directly instead of Taunting it, it had a Focus Sash. When I thought my Acrobatics would OHKO the Rage Powdering foe Amoonguss, it didn't. I think these pokemon will be much more successful in stopping that strategy, and well as being powerhouses outside of those conditions. What are y'all's thoughts?

 

[Supe]

Holy crap! I looked at your team and freaked out because it was EXTREMELY similar to my team. Then you posted and switched in the two pokes I was going to suggest! If you're on IRC or some sort of IM program, I'd love to bounce round some ideas with you.

Anyway, here's some of my suggestions:

Replace Protect with Detect on Conkeldurr if you can (it's an egg move). It's a minor nitpick, but in the very slim chance that you run across an imprison user with protect, at least you'll be covered.

You mention that HP Flying hits Amoongus and Whimsicott harder than HP Ice, but that is not true. They are both 2x effective off of a base 70 power move. Have you considered Psychic over HP Flying on your Thundurus? It hits SE and harder on almost all of the same pokes as HP Flying. You would lose the ability to hit Scrafty and Whimsicott for SE damage, but you would gain the ability to hit Terrakion. The 20 extra base power is always welcome, and you can't ignore the possibility of lowering the foe's Special Defense.

Obviously, I really like this team. Like I said, mine is similar to this and Ill be attending San Jose this weekend. I'll be sure to let you know how it fares.

 

[Ashenlock]

Replace Protect with Detect on Conkeldurr if you can (it's an egg move). It's a minor nitpick, but in the very slim chance that you run across an imprison user with protect, at least you'll be covered.

If I end up breeding my own Conkeldurr I'll be sure to do this, but if I trade for one I won't get too picky.

You mention that HP Flying hits Amoongus and Whimsicott harder than HP Ice, but that is not true. They are both 2x effective off of a base 70 power move. Have you considered Psychic over HP Flying on your Thundurus? It hits SE and harder on almost all of the same pokes as HP Flying. You would lose the ability to hit Scrafty and Whimsicott for SE damage, but you would gain the ability to hit Terrakion. The 20 extra base power is always welcome, and you can't ignore the possibility of lowering the foe's Special Defense.

Unless I'm mistaken about the Hidden Power mechanics, HP Flying gets STAB on Thundurus and hits effectively for 105, making it more powerful than Psychic. If it doesn't get the STAB that I think it does, I'll go for Psychic instead.

Obviously, I really like this team. Like I said, mine is similar to this and Ill be attending San Jose this weekend. I'll be sure to let you know how it fares.

Thank you. I'm very interested in seeing the results your team gets.

 

[Supe]

If I end up breeding my own Conkeldurr I'll be sure to do this, but if I trade for one I won't get too picky.

Unless I'm mistaken about the Hidden Power mechanics, HP Flying gets STAB on Thundurus and hits effectively for 105, making it more powerful than Psychic. If it doesn't get the STAB that I think it does, I'll go for Psychic instead.

Thank you. I'm very interested in seeing the results your team gets.

Duh! I can't believe I forgot to factor in STAB! HP Flying is definitely the better choice then.

I can give you a Conkeldurr with all the egg moves, but it's adamant and quint flawless. Just send me a VM if you want it.

 

[Ashenlock]

Duh! I can't believe I forgot to factor in STAB! HP Flying is definitely the better choice then.

It's understandable; people almost NEVER pack a HP type that they get STAB on, so it's easy to forget about it.

I can give you a Conkeldurr with all the egg moves, but it's adamant and quint flawless. Just send me a VM if you want it.

Thank you very much, but I'm about to get in a trade with someone who has a Brave one. If it turns out from playtesting that Adamant is better, I'll be sure to VM you with some offers. Hope you go far in San Jose!

 

[Ashenlock]

(Double-posting because I have something important to add)

I'm really starting to wonder if Archeops is a wise choice. Rock Slide doesn't do enough for me in the VGC environment, and being a point slower than Thundurus means that it doesn't really matter if I KO it with Rock Slide. I'm thinking about returning to an old unmentioned member:

Tornadus @ Flying Gem
JOLLY
+Prankster+
6 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
-Acrobatics
-Brick Break
-Taunt
-Substitute/Protect

I don't have the damage calcs ready, but I think it OHKOs Amoonguss just like Archeops, and if it's carrying a Coba berry, neither one does, so the Atk. gulf doesn't matter. Priority Taunt stops Trick Room'd Amoonguss from Sporebombing in case I don't OHKO it. Substitute is perhaps a little better than Protect because of Prankster, and stops faster status, but it may not be necessary with Taunt. Brick Break is I feel better than Hammer Arm because of better accuracy and no speed reduction, as well as for the possibility, however slim, that my opponent will set up Reflect/Light Screen.

What are your thoughts? I already have the Tornadus EV'd and ready, so it's no trouble to switch to it if I have to.