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VGC 14 Viability Rankings (outdated)

Discussion in 'VGC' started by Professor Birch, Mar 23, 2014.

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  1. Professor Birch

    Professor Birch

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    Many tiers have this and I believe that we should as well. I will begin with this list as being empty and you may choose how to tier a certain pokemon. Remember: "X Should Be Y Tier" is not allowed. Instead "X Should Be Y Tier+Good Arguement / Explanation."

    S-Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that simply put, are really good at what they do. These Pokemon are able to function extremely well without much support needed. In addition, they can still wreak havoc even when the opposing team has a counter for it. For defensive Pokemon, these are really hard to take down and can get around counters a good percentage of the time.

    [​IMG] Garchomp
    [​IMG] Mega Kangaskhan
    [​IMG] Mega Tyranitar
    [​IMG] Tyranitar
    [​IMG] Aegislash

    A-Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are not as great at what they do as those in S-Rank. This could be due to a flaw like lower damage output or a crippling weakness. For defensive Pokemon, these Pokemon are still very good but are may be weak to a common type or pretty poor movepool. Additionally, these Pokemon function better with support but can still function well without it.

    [​IMG] Amoonguss
    [​IMG] Mega Charizard Y
    [​IMG] Rotom-W
    [​IMG] Rotom-H
    [​IMG] Talonflame
    [​IMG] Salamence
    [​IMG] Mega Mawile
    [​IMG] Mega Gardevoir
    [​IMG] Mega Manectric
    [​IMG] Mega Gyarados
    [​IMG] Venusaur
    Mega Gengar


    B-Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are outclassed by those in A & S-Rank but given good support, can do well, especially against teams that are not completely prepared for it. For defensive Pokemon, they have a main flaw or are just weaker stat and typing wise that stops it from walling most threats and Pokemon.

    [​IMG] Scrafty

    Meowstic
    [​IMG] Ferrothorn
    [​IMG] Gyarados
    [​IMG] Mega Venusaur
    [​IMG] Azumarill
    [​IMG] Chandelure
    [​IMG] Politoed
    [​IMG] Mamoswine
    [​IMG] Bisharp
    [​IMG] Gengar
    [​IMG] Mienshao

    C-Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that can be effective given a certain situation but otherwise will fall behind compared to higher ranked Pokemon. Other than this, the opponents team needs to be completely unable to deal with it for it to become a threat.

    [​IMG] Manectric
    D-Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are gimmicky and may have some strategy that will succeed a very small percentage of the time. Simply put, these Pokemon may have a small role but are outclassed and are useless most of the time. Better off using other options.

    Vivillon

    E-Rank: Dont even bother unless you just want to have fun and you have a favorite Pokemon here. In other words, there is next to no chance this thing will carry its weight.
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2014
    Chenkovsky, lucariojr and Magcargo like this.
  2. Chenkovsky

    Chenkovsky Hula's waifu.
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    Just some preliminary nominations.

    Mega Kangaskhan: A Rank, not S Rank. As it gets walled to all hell by ghost types which are now used on almost every team and Will-O-Wisp being on every team, it isn't quite the same threat as it was in OU. Mega Kangaskhan suffers hugely from predictability making easy to prepare for. But that said it is still very threatening with Parental Bond and can somewhat shake off burns with Facade if your that paranoid. 100 / 105 / 105 bulk also let's it take a lots of hits before going down. Mega Kangaskhan is only A Rank due to its inability to hit Ghost-types at all, even Gengars provided they have Will-O-Wisp wall Mega Kangaskhan silly. When the rules were announced I would have said S Rank, but Mega Kangaskhan has shaped metagame full of Ghost-types and Rocky Helmets which severely limits effectiveness.

    Aegislash: S Rank, I would say it is the most unpredictable Pokemon in the format. Some recently did well at a Japanese tournament with Hidden Power Ice. Aegislash is unpredictable in more than one front though it's ability Stance Change and the way it works. A good player can drastically outplay the opponent in knowing when to use King's Shield and change forme. It is worth mentioning that it is in practice one of the best Wide Guard users blocking Earthquakes, Heat Waves, and Rock Slides alike allowing it to support a team well especially with its bulk in Shield forme. It is because of Aegislash's huge mixed bulk and Attacks, unpredictability, and typing that I think Aegislash is S Rank.

    Manectric: D Rank, Relatively fast, base 105 Speed, with a great ability on rain teams to redirects the likes of Rotom-Wash's Thunderbolts directed at Politoed and boost its own Special Attack by one stage allowing it to pick up a few OHKOes with Hidden Power Ice and even Overheat. Regular Manectric should only be played in rain and that's why it's D Rank.

    Mega Manectric
    : B Rank. With 135 base Special Attack and Speed it hits hard and fast. It also has the ever useful ability Intimidate allowing it to weaken physical attackers. On top of this Mega Manectric has Overheat in its movepool directly threatening Steel-types such as Ferrothorn and Aegislash. It is also walled pretty hard by Tyranitar, Rotom-Heat, and Gardevoir, among others. To outspeed many of the faster Pokemon in the format it has to run a Timid nature, however with a Timid nature it misses out on few key OHKOes namely bulky Mega Charizard Y which is becoming the norm. In general there are better mega options for a team, but Mega Manectric can be used very effectively on the right team.

    • but can properly fulfill a given offensive/defensive niche. It plays the role of a fast special attacker well enough.

    • Pokemon who are partially outperformed by a Pokemon in A or S Rank, but are otherwise very dangerous. There are better special attackers, a lot because they don't require you using your Mega slot and have better coverage.
    Mega-Manectric is a B Rank Pokemon.

    Smeargle: No. Unfortunately Dark Void was unbanned this season throwing Smeargle into the limelight again (VGC'10 never forget). Basically Choice Scarf click Dark Void. Focus Sash oh you went for protect that's nice, Encore, Dark Void. Even Transform. Smeargle is only good because of Dark Void, a move which will put both you opponents Pokemon to Sleep. Dark Void is easy to pull off to great effect very easily. Safeguard and Lum berry are the only ways to shut it down. B Rank. As it provides no offensive pressure of its own, isn't particularly fast, is very frail, and any half decent player will prepare for it.
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2014
  3. bwebber

    bwebber

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    A lot of that is just untrue. MegaMan has respectable 70/80/80 defenses that are enhanced by Intimidate, and it only has one weakness in Ground. Garchomp is the only Pokemon that frequently runs EQ, a Pokemon that loses to Manectric because of its speed, its being a physical attacker, and x4 weakness to Ice. Furthermore, Manectric is a nuisance to take down because of 135 speed + Volt Switch, and very rarely have I lost Manectric early game because of this, and an un-Intimidated STAB EQ is the only unboosted attack that can reliably OHKO Manectric. Also, what really walls it and are common? Rotom-H, Tyranitar, and maybe Gardevoir? Manectric might have a tiny move pool, but even still, it gets excellent coverage that allows it to C/C many common Pokemon like Garchomp, Ferrothorn, Charizard, Gyarados, Amoonguss, Salamence, Venusaur, Talonflame, Mawile, Aegislash, Scizor, Greninja, and Azumarill, plus more obscure stuff like Noivern.
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2014
  4. klvkboom

    klvkboom

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    I'll throw in my thoughts on some VGC Pokes as well. That being said, this will also be my first time nominating Pokes for viability rankings.

    Garchomp: S. Chomp is #1 in usage for very good reason. Great typing, unique speed tier, very good coverage moves, I feel that it's relatively easy to slap Garchomp on to many teams and have relative success. There's no argument that a Dclaw or EQ coming off of 130 base ATK and 102 base Spe is great to have, and his defenses are respectable. Rough Skin is icing on the cake, being able to do punish many common attacks. Many Fake Out users risk losing Focus Sash, Mkang risks losing a lot of health, and the Chomp mirror becomes slightly more manageable by being a 1 for 1 trade. I find very little reason not to use Chomp on my teams for these reasons alone.

    Mega Kangaskhan: S. I have to argue with Chen about this one. I find that MKang is a metagame defining Pokemon (much like MZard and MMawile), and as such she should be of heavy priority in taking measures to beat. MKang deals way too much damage to nearly anything that doesn't resist, so unless you're a Ghost-type (that won't get screwed with Sucker Punch), MKang will certainly leave a huge dent if not KO. If a single Pokemon can change the way people think about team building, such as Rocky Helmet, Ghosts, non-damage moves on said Ghosts, then MKang is big defining factor on how VGC is played.

    Mienshao: A-. Mien is quite powerful in a "suicide-support" role. He runs at a very good speed tier of 105 base Spe, and as such provides one of the fastest Fake Outs in the game. Not to mention Mien also has a plethora of support moves, notable ones being Wide Guard, Quick Guard, Feint, and Rock Slide's Flinch. High Jump Kick is also a powerful tool because it means Mien can OHKO MKang and TTar with little issues, and Inner Focus further exemplifies this since it means Kang can't even Fake Out him. Although he is somewhat walled by Fairies and some Ghosts, the pressure he puts on the opponent and the support he provides for his team is always a big threat.
    Last edited: May 11, 2014
  5. Chenkovsky

    Chenkovsky Hula's waifu.
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    These are the points that makes me doubt Mega Kangaskhan's S Rank status.

    Mega Kangaskhan is not versatile, nor is it unpredictable. On top of that it isn't able to run multiple roles. Mega-Kangaskhan has one set which although it runs extremely well it does so very predictably. Moves like Facade, Hammer Arm, Crunch, and Protect (even Fire Blast) are all just variants on another move. Facade - Return, Hammer Arm - Power-Up Punch, Crunch - Sucker Punch, Protect - Fake Out, and Fire Blast - Power-up Punch. All the spreads are in essence the same just varying how hard it hits and how well it takes hits.

    It is unable to hit Ghost-types, Sucker Punch is the way most people go, Will-O-Wisp or Substitute completely shut this down. I wouldn't say that Parental Bond is enough to make up for being completely unable to hit an entire typing.

    What I said about Mega Manectric was incorrect and I have amended it. However I maintain its B Rank status.


    List of Pokemon I Think Should be Ranked (96) (open)

    Venusaur,
    Mega Venusaur,
    Mega Charizard X,
    Mega Charizard Y,
    Nidoking,
    Nidoqueen,
    Machamp,
    Slowbro,
    Slowking,
    Cloyster,
    Gengar,
    Mega Gengar,
    Marowak,
    Mega Kangaskhan,
    Mega Pinsir,
    Gyarados,
    Mega Gyarados,
    Aerodactyl,
    Mega Aerodactyl,
    Zapdos,
    Dragonite,
    Azumarill,
    Scizor,
    Mega Scizor,
    Heracross,
    Mega Heracross,
    Politoed,
    Mega Houndoom,
    Kingdra,
    Smeargle,
    Tyranitar,
    Mega Tyranitar,
    Ludicolo,
    Gardevoir,
    Mega Gardevoir,
    Gallade,
    Hariyama,
    Sableye,
    Mega Mawile,
    Manectric,
    Mega Manectric,
    Crawdaunt,
    Mega Banette,
    Salamence,
    Garchomp,
    Mega Garchomp,
    Lucario,
    Mega Lucario,
    Toxicroak,
    Abomasnow,
    Mega Abomasnow,
    Weavile,
    Rhyperior,
    Mamoswine,
    Rotom Heat,
    Rotom Wash,
    Rotom Frost,
    Rotom Mow,
    Liepard,
    Conkeldurr,
    Sawk,
    Scolipede,
    Krookodile,
    Scrafty,
    Gothitelle,
    Reuniclus,
    Escavalier,
    Amoonguss,
    Ferrothorn,
    Chandelure,
    Mienshao,
    Bisharp,
    Hydreigon,
    Chesnaught,
    Greninja,
    Diggersby,
    Talonflame,
    Pyroar,
    Florges,
    Meowstic-Male,
    Aegislash,
    Aromatisse,
    Malamar,
    Clawitzer,
    Goodra,
    Klefki,
    Trevenant,
    Gourgeist Super Size,
    Noivern.
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2014
  6. Professor Birch

    Professor Birch

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    Right away, I am going to agree with putting Garchomp in S and all the discussion has been good so far. Keep going!
  7. bwebber

    bwebber

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    It can't hit Ghost types. That's the one flaw with Kangaskhan. It's other flaw is that it might be too good and people over prepare for it.
  8. Darkmalice

    Darkmalice Like a facepalm, but better
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    You've actually pointed out why Mega Kang may not be so predictable. Yes it is most commonly seen with the Fake Out, Return, Sucker Punch, PuP set, and yes it is its best set. But that in itself is what makes the other options useful - they are not as expected and are all viable and useful (except Facade; you should not rely on Mega Kang being burnt). Well you could argue that a good player would keep an eye out for these other options, but that also means he'll have to be very much on guard, as Mega Kang with the right moves can beat almost any opponent.

    I also find it paradoxical that you mentioned it is unable to hit Ghost-types despite mentioning Crunch yourself, which is a feasible option over either PuP or Sucker Punch. It won't OHKO Gourg or Aegislash (use when you predict it setting a Sub up), but it can 2HKO when paired with your partner's attack it will also OHKO every Ghost-type if its gets a PuP boost (likely to OHKO Gourg even if Intimidated once i.e. +1).

    Btw for reference
    252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Crunch vs. 252 HP / 36 Def Gourgeist-Super: 120-144 (62.5 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    Also take into account many Gourg-S run Leftovers over Sitrus, so provided you have an ally with decent firepower, you can get the KO before it attacks.
  9. klvkboom

    klvkboom

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    I think it's important to note that a VGC environment is much different to other metagames. VGC is very strict when it comes to movesets, and team synergy here is more important than ever when it comes to coverage. This naturally means there will be some hard counters to nearly every Poke, but this issue is normally fixed through the help of the other teammates. Sure, common powerhouses like MKang and MMaw can be hard walled by something like Aegislash or Gourgeist, but that doesn't really make MKang or MMaw any worse, it just gives the other two an opportunity to shine.

    Anyways, I'll forgo further discussion about controversial Pokes that require some form of support and instead nominate some standalone powerhouses.

    Gardevoir: A (S?). I would consider Garde as one of the most versatile Pokes in VGC this season. She can run a plethora of EV spreads, movesets, and even some decent options in abilities. Fairy is also a very powerful typing both defensively and offensively as it allows Garde to almost hard counter most Dragons and hurt then heavily in return. Her best sets are Choiced, and for good reason. Dazzling Gleam spam is substantially strong in terms of spreading damage. It will do a respectable amount to anything that doesn't resist and can potentially OHKO anything that's weak to it. Although the most common sets are Choiced, she has other notable options such as WoW, Encore, Twave, Disable, the list is quite long and Garde can make good use with any of them. My only issue with Garde is her poor defenses specifically against physical attacks. She takes a lot of punishment when dealing with fast physical hitters such as MKang, Talonflame, and even Chomp to an extent. However, because Garde's main strength is simply to spread damage, she can forgo heavy offensive EV investment for respectable tankiness. One can invest heavily to make Garde survive powerful hits and she will still perform her role well. Overall, a very solid Poke that can be a useful addition to anyone's team.

    Bisharp: B+. Bisharp's strengths solely relies on how well he is executed against Intimidate users. If he can get the boost, then he has no problem dealing considerable amounts of damage to the entire metagame. However, without the Defiant boost he is still strong but much more manageable, and your opponent will try their best to work around it. That being said, a Bisharp on your team will make your opponent uneasy during team preview. They will avoid using their Intimidate users (esp. as leads) which is something that can be abused.

    I rate Bisharp around B because he is heavily skill and match up reliant. If properly used he is a monster, but equally he can be played around and is also useless against certain teams. He also takes essentially lethal damage from common spread moves such as EQ, Heat Wave, Dazzling Gleam, as well as being PuP fodder for enemy MKangs.
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  10. Chenkovsky

    Chenkovsky Hula's waifu.
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    Crunch is used 8.6% of the time whereas Sucker Punch is used 85.4% these aren't mutually exclusive so we must assume that some Kangaskhans are running running both. If it is used over Sucker Punch you will be weak to faster Pokemon which can 2HKO or OHKO Kangaskhan, and if you run it over Power-Up Punch you will be walled by Tyranitar. Crunch is a feasible option but it is not by any stretch the best option. I think you might have slightly missed the point I was trying to make in that yes it has other options, but they aim to fill the same role in a similar manner.

    It is also worth mentioning that you have made an assumption which isn't true. Mega Kangaskhans always run an attack positive nature. 64% are running Jolly, and only 33.8% run an attack positive natures.
    Calculations (open)
    252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Crunch vs. 252 HP / 36 Def Gourgeist-Super: 111-132 (57.8 - 68.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    252 Atk Parental Bond burned Mega Kangaskhan Crunch vs. 252 HP / 36 Def Gourgeist-Super: 55-66 (28.6 - 34.3%) -- 2.1% chance to 3HKO

    So after a burn and Leftovers it doesn't 2HKO, just saying.

    I would also like to say the reason I chose to use 36 Def EVs is that it is the commonly used on Showdown. However If Crunch were at all common people be investing more EVs into Defense to take it better. But as it isn't common, they would be wasted EVs.

    I would consider Mienshao more of a B Rank Pokemon. A lot of this has to do with it's dependency on High Jump Kick. Although Drain Punch can be used it doesn't OHKO Mega Kangaskhan which is High Jump Kick's main selling point. Fighting-type only hits the aforementioned Mega Kangaskhan and Tyranitar of the twelve most common Pokemon for super effective damage. Four of them resist it and one of them is immune to it. Ghost-types feature in some form on nearly every team; as High Jump Kick is a very abusable move people will use Protect (if they have it, as it isn't a hugely uncommon move on Mega Kangaskhan and Tyranitar) or switch to their Ghost-type, assuming that they brought it. As for Quick Guard, Mienshao, Meowstic-M, and Talonflame are really the only popular Quick Guard users, and Mienshao probably does it best although, Meowstic-M does give it a run for its money. I don't particularly like Wide Guard on Mienshao, Quick Guard serves the purpose of blocking a Brave Bird from Talonflame allowing a partner to take it down. All while conserving Mienshao's Focus Sash. Another reason I dislike Wide Guard on Mienshao is that it has better options for its fourth slot like Quick Guard, Detect, or Feint. Wide Guard is nice in conjunction with Mega Charizard Y, Talonflame, and other Pokemon particularly weak to spread moves, however this makes it only worth running alongside these Pokemon as it is little benefit to Mienshao individually. Mienshao is also incredibly weak to Intimidate, it loses out on a lot of 2HKOs at -1 Attack. As well as this the current presence of Will-O-Wisp does it no favors.

    There also better checks to Mega Kangaskhan and counters to Tyranitar individually, although none do both like Mienshao, except maybe bulky Mega Mawile (although that is more of a check to Tyranitar, because of Fire Blast). It is out classed by other Pokemon in terms of support and offensive power. Although nothing does it in one set other than Mienshao.

    I agree with Bisharp being in B Rank, and Gardevoir being in A Rank at the lowest.
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2014
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  11. bwebber

    bwebber

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    Garchomp, A: Ask yourself: how many teams can you build that have many of the VGC staples that would struggle even a little bit against Garchomp? Intimidate, Ice moves, and WoW are common place, all things that can bring down Garchomp with relative ease, and that's not even delving into Fairies or faster Draco nuking Dragons. Garchomp's a Pokemon that has an unmatched combination of good bulk, good power, and good speed, and the reason why it's the most used Pokemon at the moment is that it fills so many needs well, but there's nothing about Garchomp that you need to pay special attention to when team building, nor will it ever dominate a single match unless you play carelessly against it. It's good at everything, great at none, and it doesn't shift the meta in any way that would justify an S-ranking for me. If you suddenly forgot Garchomp existed, and instead focused your team on handling the other threats, Garchomp still probably wouldn't give you much problem.

    Mega Charizard Y, A: Weather is still a dominant aspect of VGC even with the nerf, and Charizard is the only reason why Venusaur can be such an annoyance with ultra fast Sleep Powders. With the Sun and 159 SAtk, Charizard is a demon that provides both a strong spread move and a nuke that hit like they're on steroids. It even has access to a powerful coverage option in Solarbeam, and with the mechanics of how Charizard's Drought activates, it often comes out on top in battles to control weather. Charizard, though, has a shallow offensive move pool that leave it susceptible to bulky Fire types like Rotom-H, and this flaw, along with its mediocre physical bulk, middling speed, and exploitable defensive typing, give Charizard enough problems from moving up a rank.

    Mega Manectric, B+: The usefulness of its ability cannot be overstated, and with good power and excellent coverage, Manectric is a threatening offensive Pokemon that can be a nuisance to control for unprepared teams. It doesn't care about opposing Intomidate and WoW's Attack drop, and if you choose to whittle away at it instead of outright going for the KO, Manectric will simply Volt Switch away, which a move that provides great chip damage and shields Manectric from passive damage from Poison, Burn, and Weather. It's also difficult to stop it from doing this because of its speed, and Volt Switch is especially useful to shuffle Intimidate. However, Manectric has an over reliance on its ability to provide bulk, meaning physical attackers that switch in or special attackers won't have too difficult a time exploiting its middling defensive stats. Furthermore, forgoing Thunderbolt for Volt Switch/Overheat/HP Ice leaves Manectric without a decently strong move that doesn't have an undesired side effect, and it can lose to healthy and bulky Pokemon because of this (though I still firmly believe that not using Thunderbolt is the way to go). Manectric needs specific types of Pokemon built around it to function properly, but if thee requirements are met, Manectric is an excellent offensive and support Pokemon.
  12. ATH

    ATH

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    Rotom-Wash, A: Versatile little creature, that generally has only one weakness, powerful stabs, and counters most priority sweepers aside from Mach Punch users (Rare), and Extremespeed users (M-Luc I suppose?). Can play bulky with Leftovers/Sitrus or made into a power tank using Choice Specs and Scarf. Decently good movepool, getting many sidegrades such as Shadow Ball and such. Discharge alongside Garchomp's Earthquake makes for probably the best, and most used, Disquake combo in today's VGC. Get's Will-o-wisp to take down threats on the physical side, leaving only things like Mega Charizard Y to OHKO it.
  13. Chenkovsky

    Chenkovsky Hula's waifu.
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    Rotom-Wash: A Rank, I agree with the placement, but not the reasoning.

    The standard spread runs 252 HP / 148 SpD with a Calm nature, even Choice Specs Rotom-W have been known to run those Special Defense EVs.
    • 252+ SpA Mega Charizard Y Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 148+ SpD Rotom-W: 132-156 (84 - 99.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    I wouldn't have mentioned Shadow Ball it won't OHKO Aegislash and will activate it's Weakness Policy and then be able to retaliate back hard with Shadow Ball. DisQuake isn't something I have seen pulled off particularly successfully this season simply because Rotom-wash runs so much bulk and so little Special Attack and is generally to weak, given its a spread move. The fact that Garchomp has about 40% usage right now doesn't help either. Choice Specs sets generally run Hidden Power Ice. Choice Scarf could be used however I have yet see, it could work but it doesn't kill Mega Charizard Y 100%.
    • 252+ SpA Rotom-W Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard Y: 132-156 (86.2 - 101.9%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
    This I think is reason enough to be skeptical of running Choice Scarf.

    Mach Punch doesn't scare Rotom-wash slightly:
    • 252+ Atk Conkeldurr Mach Punch vs. 252 HP / 44 Def Rotom-W: 36-43 (22.9 - 27.3%) -- 54.7% chance to 4HKO
    Only one in four Conkeldurrs carry Flame Orb.
    • 252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Mach Punch vs. 252 HP / 44 Def Rotom-W: 54-64 (34.3 - 40.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    Rotom-wash is scared of Mega Lucario, both Close Combat and Aura Sphere (73% of the time) are 2HKOs.
    • 252 Atk Mega Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 44 Def Rotom-W: 45-54 (28.6 - 34.3%) -- 3.1% chance to 3HKO
    It is definitely an A Rank because of it's bulk, unique typing, and offensive STAB. Because of these factors it checks many of the most common Pokemon.
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  14. ATH

    ATH

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    Thank you for making a better post, mine was somewhat rushed and I didn't have time to check calcs and such. ^^ But, excuses aside, good post.
  15. Darkmalice

    Darkmalice Like a facepalm, but better
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    You would be right to usually assume that Mega Kang wouldn't be using Crunch in a battle. It still has the option to do so if it wants a better match-up against Ghost-types.

    Regardless of this, I would still vote for S-rank. Very strong Fake Out with good speed to back it up, very high attack, strong priority (though somewhat unreliable), great bulk for such an offensively oriented Pokemon compounded by only one weakness.

    It is still awesome even in a metagame where Rocky Helmet, Intimidate, burn, Ghost-types and Rocky Helmet are common. And the former two (and Rocky Helmet to a small extent) affect most physical attackers too. Garchomp is eve more strongly affected by Intimidate and burn, as Mega Kang still hits hard at -1, can boost that attack up, and hits the most common burn user, Rotom-W, much harder than Garchomp. Mega Kang is a bigger threat than Garchomp.

    Also Amoonguss for A-rank. Arguably the best Grass-type this generation. We all know how great Spore + Rage Powder + bulk is. It also has self-healing with Regenerator, and pairs brilliantly with Mega Kang - Fake Out + Spore, or Rage Powder + Return or PuP with Mega Kang. It shuts down Rotom-W and Azumarill better than any other Pokemon, redirecting and not minding everything they can use with Rage Powder, whilst Giga Draining them in return. It's also one of the best answers to TR, which is still great even with TR's decline this generation.

    It's definitely not S-rank though, as it has poor offensive capacity outside of Spore, and needs support to make use of the sleep turns. Sleep has been nerfed this generation. However, it is the best user of Spore and Rage Powder, and this cannot be understated. It is reliable at doing what it needs to do, so it deserves A rank.
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  16. Chenkovsky

    Chenkovsky Hula's waifu.
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    We both have made our points very clear, and I very much doubt either of us is going to concede to the other. I think at this point a third opinion is very much needed at this point.

    That said, Amoonguss is definetly an A Rank Pokemon.
  17. Xlstevo

    Xlstevo

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    Mega Charizard Y - S Rank. Mega Charizard is one of the most common Mega's or even Pokemon seen in the VGC meta game. Now not only this Pokemon has one of the top SpA's in the game, but it also carries the ability drought. Weather conditions in VGC are extremely deadly and can cause a real threat. Commonly if you see a Mega Charizard Y, 5/10 chance you would see it in combination with Venusaur (Chlorophyll). The power of Mega Charizard Y is unreal.
    252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Rotom-W: 210-248 (69 - 81.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Aegislash-Shield in Sun: 380-450 (117.2 - 138.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    Amoonguss - A Rank. Amoonguss is probably one of the best spore/sleep causing users in the VGC meta game. What makes Amoonguss so good? Well, The stats of Amoonguss are pretty decent. Rage Powder is a really cool move that Amoonguss could learn because it can take hits from moves that would do heavy damage to its ally. Also, Regenerator is pretty handy because Amoonguss can switch and recover some HP. Amoonguss's Spore can greatly counter opponents with no sleep clause in VGC. Amoonguss has pretty decent SpA as well.
    252 SpA Charizard Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 0+ SpD Amoonguss: 302-356 (69.9 - 82.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
    252+ SpA Mega Abomasnow Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Amoonguss: 332-392 (76.8 - 90.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after hail damage and Black Sludge recovery
    tlyee61 likes this.
  18. Professor Birch

    Professor Birch

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    Mega Zard Y in A-Rank and Amoonguss in A-Rank. Do not discuss these any further as these are the right places for those two.
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2014
  19. bwebber

    bwebber

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    Lol settle down, this is a little quick isn't it? Reread what constitutes and S-ranking.



    Charizard Y is hard hitting, but try as it might, it's never going to beat Garchomp, Aerodactyl, Rotom-H, Scarf Mamoswine, most Mienshao, Goodra and it struggles against Salamence, Hydreigon, Gyarados, Tyranitar, Manectric, and Talonflame. Charizard Y also isn't versatile because its move pool is so shallow, and taking out all of those Pokemon as they all threaten Charizard hardly qualifies as "little support".

    You can have one of the highest effective attacking stats in the game, but if you have middling speed and are OHKOed by just about every Rock Slide user, you're always going to have a pretty big drawback.
  20. Professor Birch

    Professor Birch

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    I dont know why I had it in S even though I was thinking A. Thanks for pointing that out.
  21. Professor Birch

    Professor Birch

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    I am now going to give some Pokemon for dicussing. One that seems is debatable right now is Mega Kangaskhan. The obvious tiers choices are either A or S-Rank so discuss which one you feel it belongs it. Quick Note: "Also the home of Pokemon who can easily perform multiple roles effectively, increasing their versatility and unpredictability." This does not mean that a Pokemon in this tier MUST be able to do this but it could help another threat reach this ranking.

    Another Pokemon that I would like to bring up for discussing is Scizor. Currently, I see it falling between A or (High) B-Rank but if you think that you have a valid argument for S-Rank, do share it.

    One other discussing point or rather reinforcement is with Rotom-W. So far, we have two people saying that it belongs in A-Rank and I can agree but I need to see others that feel the same way.

    Have fun discussing!
  22. tennisace

    tennisace another eggnog, please
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Super Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Pokemon Researcheris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
    Social Media Chief

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    Using the ranking definitions that OU gives is kind of silly in the context of VGC, since the main question you should be asking is "how well does this Pokemon perform when the opponent is prepared for it?"

    S-rank is "this Pokemon performs well regardless of how well the opponent prepares for it". Examples are things like Garchomp and Mega Kanga: short of your opponent bringing 4 Ice types or 4 Ghost types, if you use one of those two Pokemon, they will improve your team most of the time and force an immediate response from your opponent. A-rank is "this pokemon performs well if given a little bit of support but still pulls its weight", things like Rotom-W / Amoonguss / Mega Charizard Y. B-rank is "if you give this pokemon solid support or the opponent is mostly unprepared, this Pokemon does well". A good example is Mega Pinsir, as it needs support to deal with Talonflame / Aegislash / etc but is quite powerful if used properly. C-rank is "this Pokemon works only if your opponent is totally unprepared or is totally situational in its use: non-mega Venusaur is probably in this category since there are a ton of ways to stop it but if you opponent doesn't expect it you can get off a quick Sleep Powder. D-rank is "this Pokemon is a gimmick and you're better off using other stuff most of the time", i.e. everything else.

    I might comment on individual ranks later but not taking into account the support a Pokemon needs from/provides to teammates is the wrong way to rank this meta.
    Karxrida likes this.
  23. Professor Birch

    Professor Birch

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    Yes, I was just trying to use a guideline or at least give an idea to what should go in each rank. Ill try to change it based on what the true uses of each pokemon are. Thank you for the definitions!
  24. Darkmalice

    Darkmalice Like a facepalm, but better
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    Rotom-W is A-rank, A+ if there were sub-tiers. It's typing enables to take on many key Pokemon like Talonflame, Azumarill, Greninja, and more, it has respectable bulk with enough defensive investment and Sitrus Berry especially considering it only has one weakness, and it is a great at spreading burns which is awesome in a metagame full of physical attackers, and

    The main reason for A-rank instead of S-rank is that it can be overpowered due to its lack of HP. Many of its favourable match-ups are due to its typing, and without Sitrus Berry, I would not call it bulky. This shows against high base stat Pokemon - Mega Zard Y, Aegislash and Mega Lucario overpower it, and Mega Kang does a lot of damage before getting affected by burn. It also has a horrendous match-up against Amoonguss - Amoonguss can redirect everything Rotom-W can throw at your team and shrugg it off. A miss with Will-O-Wisp can also be game-changing.

    I also believe Rotom-H is A rank. It's quite similar to Rotom-W but with a different typing that's also great, making it better and worse against certain Pokemon. It's the best counter to Mega Zard Y, and fairs better against Amoonguss, Venusaur, Manetric, and the prominent Steel-types whilst fairing worse against users of Rock Slide (Will-O-Wisp helps, though some like Garchomp will outspeed you first, Azumarill (Thunderbolt helps), Greninja (screws you over) and rain teams (much worse). Whilst overall slightly worse than Rotom-W (only a little), still a very good Pokemon that reliably gets its job done whilst differentiating itself well from Rotom-W and fits well within A-rank.
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2014
  25. Talenheim

    Talenheim

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    I would recommend putting Vivillon as either B or C Rank. With the exception of Chlorophyll Venusaur under the sun, Vivillon is both the fastest and the most accurate sleeper in VGC '14. It also deals respectable damage with STAB 94% acc. hurricane, and can set up free turns with Sleep for a free Safeguard and/or Tailwind. Unfortunately, it needs either a scarf or a sash to function, it needs team support, and it is frail as fuck.
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