Resource VGC '16 Teambuilding Frameworks

#1

approved by Ksh13 and lucariojr
inspired by Doubles OU Framework thread


If you’re new to VGC 2016 or are just stuck for ideas on how to teambuild in this new format, you can check out this thread for how successful teams have been built. Please feel free to contribute to this thread if you have noticed any patterns from popular/successful teams for me to edit into this OP, or just if you want to comment on existing frameworks etc.

General team composition:

1st Restricted Legendary (Generally one of the Primal Trio)
The primals are some of the most powerful restricted legendaries introduced into this format.
They are also the only pokemon in the format able to set harsh sun, heavy rain and strong winds, which will allow you to sway the weather war in your favour:

2nd Restricted Legendary
Your second legendary should provide a form of offence, as well as potentially supporting a primal with speed control and alike (You can choose another primal if you wish):
etc

If you're stuck for sets for any of these mons, here is a huge playlist of sample sets created by KyleCole
(The playlist may not function correctly if you're viewing on a mobile device)

3. Mega Evolution
- Mega evolutions are a secondary source of offense used on many teams to benefit the legendary core
- Some players choose to run two mega evolutions. This will give your team two sources of secondary offense for you to use against different popular pokemon in the format
- Mega Rayquaza/Mewtwo already count as a mega and a legendary
Examples:


4-6. 3 or 4 Supporting mons (depending on your choice of legendaries/megas)
Popular choices here usually have very supportive movepools containing moves such as: Trick Room, Follow me, Tailwind etc alongside useful abilities like prankster, or they just have a good matchup vs some of the top tier threats in the format:
etc

Team Frameworks:

These frameworks are the skeletons for teams to be built upon. Of course team building is a completely personal thing, so these will be rough guidelines to what works best with a particular strategy

Xerneas+Primal Groudon

1. Xerneas - A Geomancy set up and sweep can control a game if handled correctly. However, this requires a lot of support, which can be supplied by the rest of the team.
2. Primal Groudon – Perfect Type synergy with Xerneas, handling poison/steel types with Fire/Ground STABs along with a way to change the weather
3. Mega – Usually mega number 1 is in the form of mega kangaskhan, who provides a lot of offensive presence with parental bond, as well as further support in fake out.
If you are looking for alternative megas in this spot aside from Mega Kangaskhan, Mega Salamence and Mega Mawile both fit really well into teams like this
4. Redirection – Eases a geomancy set up, examples include: Smeargle, Amoonguss, Togekiss, Clefairy, Clefable, Parasect etc. Smeargle is the main candidate here, its low bulk allows for free switches and its access to dark void (as well as all other moves in the game, bar a few) gives it the ability to become a game changer. Other potential uses for Redirection support can be TR counters: Amoonguss, Clefairy and Clefable all learn After You
5. Support – usually has a form speed control, so tailwind, trick room and thunder wave are really appreciated in this spot; Tailwind allows certain pokemon to check opposing mons that they couldn't previously check because of speed etc, thus allowing bulkier sets to be run (examples in this framework: groudon in mirror match etc) . Taunt is also a great option for this spot. Examples: Cresselia, Crobat, Talonflame, Whimsicott, Gengar, Thundurus, Tornadus, Klefki, Meowstic-M etc
6. Secondary Mega/Support/Non-Restricted Counter to Top 4 – To round out the team a lot of players use this spot to counter common threats to this team style like the primals etc. Extra support/speed control is also appreciated. Examples: Salamence-Mega, Ferrothorn, Gengar-Mega, Cresselia etc

'The Big 6' [Importable]



R Inanimate [Importable]



Serapis [Importable]



SamVGC's 2nd Place Madison Team [Report]


Playstyle: Set Up / Reactionary

Xerneas + Primal Kyogre

as suggested by Steven Stone
1. Kyogre
2. Xerneas
3. Ferrothorn check - Ferrothorn is one of the biggest threats to either xerneas and primal kyogre. To handle it, it is useful in this slot to use a pokemon with a fire type attack, such as Talonflame (probably your best bet) or Infernape. This slot should be able to OHKO Ferrothorn or even KO it after a Water Spout / Origin Pulse from kyogre. Fire Blast Mega Salamence and even Fire Fang Mega Mawile can work in this slot
4. Physical Groudon check - In all sample teams so far, mega salamence is used as a physical groudon check, as it provides extremely valuable intimidate support as well as being able to take primal groudon's STABs. It provides a form of spammable offense in hyper voice which can be used next to xerneas in a sweep, as well as a mega rayquaza counter. Mega salamence is also used in all sample teams as a ferrothorn counter, freeing up the last two slots.
5. Primal Kyogre check - This slot should either be able to OHKO primal kyogre or do decent damage to it without taking much damage back. Examples include: Raichu (able to OHKO primal kyogre with zap plate (or otherwise) boosted volt tackle, Ferrothorn (OHKOs/2HKOs primal kyogre with power whip (depending on the spread) and amoonguss (able to 3HKO primal kyogre with grass knot: 0 SpA Amoonguss Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 60 SpD Primal Kyogre: 78-92 (37.6 - 44.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO)
6. Mega / Secondary Mega / Support - This slot (or two slots if you chose fire blast mega salamence) should ensure there are no gaps in the team surrounding what you want from supporting mons. Speed control, taunt, fake out, xerneas counters and redirection are all popular choices. Example mons: crobat, mega kangaskhan, mega mawile, scizor, togekiss and gengar.

Drew Novak's 1st Place Collinsville Team [Importable]



Aaron Zheng's Team


Justin Crubough's Team (3rd Place Madison)


Francisco Bernard's Team (4th Place Costa Rica)


Playstyle: Set-Up / Reactionary

Xerneas + Rayquaza-Mega
Thanks to Sardus21 and Psynergy
1. Xerneas
2. Mega Rayquaza - LO Draco Meteor to OHKO fast Groudon is a great pick here, Earth Power might work for hitting Steels too but Draco is just good and also hits Dragons for huge damage. Rayquaza checks Primals (especially Primal Groudon), and functions as an incredibly strong win condition. Checking both Xerneas and Rayquaza is pretty tricky in general though Steel-types tend to be annoying since Rayquaza typically wants Draco Meteor to hit Groudon on this archetype as opposed to Overheat (though Earth Power works too), and Waterfall isn't KOing Steels without like a flinch, which leads onto the next mon
3. Steel/Groudon check - Talonflame is amazing here, it offers: general support, TW + Quick Guard, Steel check, Xerneas check, functions fine in TR; it offers so much for this duo. Landorus-T is another great pick here, as it not only offers intimidate support for xerneas but it also checks groudon well and provides a check to steel types. It is really useful for allowing some flexibility and doesn't force you to bring and preserve Ray for every Groudon. The last point is super important.
4. Redirection/Xerneas Check - Xerneas is honestly a bit mediocre without redirection support, so this spot is essential to the team's success. Examples: Amoonguss primarily fills the redirection role, but also serves as a TR check since it tends to be good against TR teams despite Groudon existing now. It also provides an extra xerneas/kyogre check. Smeargle is a fantastic follow me user due to its low bulk+focus sash (which allows free switches) with extra access to moves like fake out, dark void, crafty shield and wide guard. Moody is a fantastic game changing ability that gives smeargle the edge over some other redirectors if RNG is in your favour. Xerneas checks also work really well in this spot, so steel types are appreciated here
5. TR check/Support - Trick Room also tends to be annoying for this pair so options against Trick Room fit nicely (which makes Talonflame especially good on this team), whether it's Ferrothorn, Taunts and Prankster mons, an anti-Trick Room user or just immense pressure from stuff like Fake Out to prevent Trick Room from actually going up
6. Support - This last spot is up to you. Having both landorus-t and talonflame on the same team is an excellent option as having both doesn't take away from this archetype's offensive/defensive presence. Other options include: Speed control users (crobat, whimsicott, thundurus etc), bulky water types to check groudon alongside rayquaza (gyarados/suicune etc) or just general support for whatever is missing

Psynergy's team



Javier Señorena's Team (1st Place Italy Nats)



Enosh Shacar's US Nats Team



Emanuel Guzman's 6th Place Argentina Team



Yi-Xuan Chen's 7th Place Singapore Team


Playstyle: Set Up + Offensive Core

Rayquaza-Mega+Kyogre-Primal
1. Mega Rayquaza
2. Primal Kyogre
3. Steel Type/Xerneas Counter – Since the legendary core is weak to a set up Xerneas, a powerful steel type is appreciated to deal big damage to Xerneas without taking much damage itself. Some good examples include: Ferrothorn, scizor, mawile-mega and aegislash
4. Support (Redirection/Intimidate/Fake Out/Top 4 Check/TR Check) - a lot of Rayquaza/Kyogre teams use Togekiss as a redirector, as rayquaza’s mega ability cancels out togekiss’ flying weaknesses, whilst Togekiss can provide speed control in Thunder Wave and Tailwind as well as drawing dangerous dragon type attacks from opposing mega Rayquaza/Salamence. Other examples include: Togetic, Clefairy, Smeargle and Amoonguss
Other support options i have seen usage of in this spot are intimidate users like Landorus-T and Mega Salamence etc and general support as mentioned in the title
5. Speed control – speed control isn’t something to be overlooked in this format. Tailwind, Thunder Wave, Trick Room and Icy wind are all examples of excellent speed control that can determine the order of pokemon attacks in battle. Some great examples are: Gengar, Thundurus, Crobat, Talonflame, Cresselia and Gothitelle
6. Fake Out/Go-To/Mega – This final pokemon is hard to define. Of the teams in the recent Glasgow regional, all four used a fake out user. However, each pokemon choice had an extra quality that individual trainers were drawn to, such as Intimidate, Swift Swim, were a Primal check etc. Some examples for this slot are: Mega Kangaskhan, Weavile, Raichu, Ludicolo, Hitmontop, Mienshao, Liepard etc

Necrocat219/Snow's RayOgre Team (Japanese Style) [Importable]



Akaba's Team (Peaked 1st Place on Battle Spot Special [Feb 28])



Edward Glover's 6th Place Virginia Regional Team [Importable]



Stephen Morioka's 8th Place Collinsville Regional Team [Importable]


Playstyle: Hyper Offensive

Groudon+Kyogre (Double Primal)

As suggested by Jibaku

1. Groudon - Usually slow and bulky for use in TR, although Chuppa's Team uses fast groudon as his team does not contain a trick room user
2. Kyogre - Usually Modest and bulky for use under both TR and tailwind, although fast kyogre does see some usage
3. Primal Support/Speed Control - This slot should aim to aid in the primal mirror, so moves such as skill swap see a lot of usage here. Speed control is very necessary for the primals because of their middling speed, so Trick Room, Thunder Wave or Tailwind support is really appreciated. Gravity support is also much appreciated due to precipice blades and origin pulse's low accuracy. Examples: Cresselia/Bronzong
4. Mega - As usual, this team needs a mega. Fake out support is appreciated if running TR, so Kangaskhan is really useful. Mega Mawile sees a lot of usage as it provides intimidate support as well as leverage against mega rayquaza and xerneas, and Mega Salamence also provides intimidate support and can help against rayquaza and primal groudon.
5. Set-up Support/Fast Mode/Secondary Mega - This can vary from team to team, although most top cut teams have seen use of Smeargle, who provides dark void pressure and set up support (both scarf and sash variants), Amoonguss, who again provides redirection support and Mega Salamence has also seen usage in top cut in 2 sample teams as a secondary mega, helping the matchup versus primal groudon and rayquaza further.
6. Speed Control (Tailwind/Thunder Wave)/Fast Mode/Offensive Support - The last slot is usually a secondary form of speed control, although other options are seldom included. Thundurus is an extremely splashable choice here, as a lead of groudon+thundurus can handle many leads from the standard big 6 archetype, bar kangaskhan+smeargle (if thundurus lacks protect), and kangaskhan+talonflame (if talonflame outspeeds thundurus and can OHKO it in sun w/ Flare Blitz). Other good choices here include talonflame, zapdos and even crobat.

Checklist for supporting mons:

Xerneas checks: x2 (TR/Taunt/Thunder Wave/Haze etc)
Groudon checks: x1 (including skill swap)
Kyogre checks: x1 (including skill swap)
Rayquaza checks: x1 (mawile/salamence/TR etc)

PokeAlex's Double Primal Team



Aaron Zheng's Double Primal Team
[Importable]


Jamie Boyt's Double Primal Team
[Analysis]


Playstyle: Bulky Offensive

Dialga+Primal Kyogre
Thanks to Size/Therazer456
1. Dialga - A great counter to the common RayOgre combo, dialga can take a hit from mega rayquaza with its great typing and OHKO back with a draco meteor/dragon pulse. It can also set up trick room which is a fantastic form of speed control for primal kyogre
2. Primal Kyogre - Can set up heavy rain thanks to its ability primordial sea, which benefits any fire weak mons added to the team (ferrothorn/amoonguss/mawile etc)
3. Mega/Fake Out Support - This slot should aim to either aid dialga in a TR set up or to provide offensive pressure on the team. Common megas on this team composition are Kangaskhan (who can provide fake out support), Salamence (provides intimidate support) and mega manectric (intimidate support)
4. Speed Control - Most Dialga/Kyogre teams like to heavily invest in their TR modes, so a TR setter is commonly seen in this spot. The most common of which is Cresselia, who also provides skill swap support for both dialga's and kyogre's matchup vs primal groudon. Tailwind/Thunder Wave users are also used in this spot if you are going for a less heavily TR-invested team, such as Wolfe Glick's Team, which uses Thundurus
5. Xerneas/Primal Kyogre Check - Ferrothorn sees a lot of usage here, as it provides a solid counter against not just these mons but against rayquaza as well, improving this build's RayOgre matchup further. Mawile also sees a lot of usage, as it provides intimidate support and can counter xerneas well. Amoonguss is also used in this spot if you want redirection support for a TR set up
6. Speed Control/Support/Groudon Check - To round out the team, most players run some form of offensive or defensive support to cover the rest of the team's weaknesses. Common pokemon in this slot include: Talonflame, Togekiss, Salamence-Mega and Landorus-T

Wolfe Glick's 1st Place Florida Regional Team [Importable]



Conan Thompson's 6th Place Oregon Regional Team [Importable]



Alex Underhill's 6th Place Collinsville Team [Importable]



Daryl Sprenger's 4th Place Innsbruck Team



Size's 1st Place Lenexa PC Team [Importable]



Size's 20th Place Collinsville Team [Importable]



Therazer456's Team [Importable]


Playstyle: Bulky Offensive / Set up

Ho-oh+Primal Kyogre

Contributed by Steven Stone
1. Primal Kyogre
2. Ho-Oh. Ho-Oh acts as a Xerneas check, Special Primal Groudon counter and Bulky Grass-type check, which is specially appreciated by Primal Kyogre. If you want to, you can also run Tailwind on it so Ho-Oh performs as a Tailwind setter as well, and given its bulk it's easier to set up a Tailwind with it.
3. Physical Primal Groudon check. Special Primal Groudon variants are really easy to beat with this duo, not so much for those physical variants carrying a Rock-type move. Pokemon such as Landorus-T and Mega Salamence perform extremely well on this role thanks to Intimidate, bulk, and a typing that isn't bothered by Primal Groudon's Precipice Blades.
4. Bulky Grass-type. A Primal Kyogre check is more than needed on this build as everything can be either OHKOed or 2HKOed by Primal Kyogre. However, Grass-types are preferred as they don't make the core's matchup against Ferrothorn worse than what it already is. Ferrothorn is the preferred choice due to its typing and bulk, but Amoonguss can be used as well.
5. Support / Fighting-type. This slot is pretty open for any support Pokemon you might want to add. Whimsicott, Smeargle, Togekiss, Clefairy, and Liepard can perform really well in this build, but if you like you can add a more offensive support, you should ideally add a Fighting-type capable of doing massive damage to Ferrothorn as well as hitting Kangaskhan hard in the way. This includes Pokemon such as Infernape, Mienshao, and Terrakion.
6. Mega Evolution / Support. Even if you picked Mega Salamence, this slot is usually open for a Mega Evolution. Mega Gengar, Mega Mawile and Mega Kangaskhan do pretty well in this archetype, but if you don't have a clear way of beating Smeargle usually Mega Kangaskhan is the way to go. If you have picked Mega Salamence but you don't want to have a secondary Mega Evolution, another support Pokemon might do it. An alternative speed control method can be used, but players usually opt for a Fake Out user in this slot. Taunt users are also really good, regardless if you're a fast team (against Trick Room) or a slow team (against Smeargle). Pokemon such as Thundurus, Meowstic, Raichu, Sableye, and the aforementioned Fake Out users can work in this last slot.

Haryz Izzudin's 1st Place Malaysia PC team [Importable]



Paolo Livella/Luca Lussignoli's 1st/2nd Place Calusco D'adda Team



Sam's Ho-Oh/Primal Kyogre Team



Jonas Yew Meng Chow's 7th Place Singapore Team




James Baek's Top 8 Kings Games PC Team


Playstyle: Bulky Offensive

Ho-Oh + Primal Groudon (Sun)

As suggested by Namikaze
1. Ho-Oh
2. Primal Groudon
3. Weather Support / Kyogre Check: This legendary core has a massive weakness to primal kyogre under rain, so it needs patching up. Kyogre can't function against either of the duo whilst under harsh sun, so weather support is appreciated. This generally comes in the form of skill swap cresselia, however, skill swap bronzong/gengar and gimmicky role play liepard/thundurus have seen usage in this spot. Ferrothorn/amoonguss are also very viable picks that can directly counter primal kyogre with STAB grass type attacks whilst also being able to check xerneas
4. Speed Control - Whist Ho-Oh can carry tailwind, most sun teams carry a secondary form of speed control to ensure that the order of attacks in battle is in your favour. If you previously chose cresselia for the weather support slot, she can also provide trick room support for a semi TR mode that can seriously benefit matchups in some situations. The ability to check xerneas is also appreciated in this slot, so icy wind/taunt gengar is a great choice for the common smeargle xerneas lead. Other users include crobat and thundurus, who are also great xerneas/set up checks
5. Mega - This slot is really up to personal preference and how the rest of the team has been built. Mega Salamence can help out with the matchup against Rayquaza and Groudon, Mega Mawile helps vs Xerneas and Rayquaza and is great inside TR, and Mega Kangaskhan can provide Fake Out Support for any Tailwind/TR set ups you may want to utilise.
6. Support - This slot can be filled with whatever kind of support is missing from the team. Fake Out/Redirection/Intimidate support are all appreciated in this team build, so pokemon like Mega Kangaskhan as a secondary mega option, weavile and landorus-t all see usage in this spot.

Namikaze's Sun team



Tony's Sun Team (top 4 GooseCreek PC)



Sassan's Sun Team (1st place blaziken series #4 PC)



Ace Emerald's 18th Place Virginia Regional Sun Team


Playstyle: Balanced Offensive

Palkia + Primal Groudon

1. Groudon - Usually runs a slow and bulky TR sweeper set. Spread moves such as precipice blades and eruption see a lot of use, usually accompanied by single target fire moves such as flamethrower, fire blast, overheat and fire punch or a coverage move like rock slide. Earth power also sees a lot of use for handling opposing groudon
2. Palkia - Palkia is an excellent partner for primal groudon, as not only is it able to set up Trick Room (and gravity for that matter), it walls primal kyogre, one of the biggest threats to primal groudon. It is also a great answer to opposing primal groudon, as it can tank an eruption with its 4x resistance to fire and can answer back with an earth power
3. Speed Control - Most groudon + palkia teams will run TR, as both pokemon are slow and appreciate some form of speed control. 9/10 times this will come in the form of Cresselia, who also provides gravity support as well as the ability to skill swap levitate onto groudon for weather support and for the mirror versus opposing groudon. Crobat also sees some use here, as it is a fantastic Xerneas check which is appreciated by palkia, and it provides tailwind support, which is appreciated depending on the build of the rest of the team and the palkia spread (some like to run modest nature for semi TR teams)
4. Mega/Fake Out Support - Usually in the form of mega kangaskhan, this slot is reserved for your mega of choice. Bulky Kangaskhan is brilliant for fake out support, although Aaron Zheng runs a max speed kangaskhan for use in his fast mode. Mega Mawile is also brilliant if you're worried about xerneas/mega rayquaza. It also provides intimidate support which is crucial to a more bulky offensive playstyle.
5. Xerneas Counter - Usually in the form of Amoonguss/Ferrothorn/Mawile, this slot can also provide redirection support if you choose amoonguss, or intimidate support in mawile if you choose to run double mega. Amoonguss can also run clear smog, which is a brilliant utility move that removes all stat changes from the target (in this case it's xerneas)
6. Support - This slot is basically a filler for whatever support you are still missing. Speed Control users like talonflame or crobat are brilliant here as a fast mode, talonflame is less bothered by trick room out of the two because of its priority offense. Redirection is great here for aiding a TR set up, so smeargle and amoonguss are great here. Lastly, Intimidate Support is also appreciated here, as advertised by Aaron Zheng's Road to Ranked team with his landorus-t, which can help out greatly vs physical primal groudon.

Aaron Zheng's Team



William Bassolino's 6th Place Preganziol team



Flavo del Pidio's 1st Place Rome Team



Domenico Vaccariello's 3rd Place Novara Team


Playstyle: Bulky Offensive

Kyurem-White + Primal Groudon (Gravity Spam)
1. Kyurem-White - Runs range of sets, can be slow for use in TR or can be fast (e.g scarf) as used in SalaMenace/Eakes' team, as prankster gravity + fast blizzard can be devastating
2. Groudon-Primal - Again this runs a range of sets, usually slow for TR, or can be run fast if TR is not on the team (e.g TheSaxLad's team)
3. Gravity Setter - Gravity support will allow blizzard and precipice blades to hit much more consistently, and this spot should aim to provide general team support. Examples: Cresselia: Gravity/TR/Skill Swap; Meowstic: PRANKSTER Gravity/TR/Safeguard/Swagger; Sableye: PRANKSTER Gravity/Fake Out/Feint/Magic Coat/Taunt/Confuse Ray/Quash etc
4. Mega - Kangaskhan/Gengar are two exemplar megas here, the former allowing TR to be set up against hard matchups e.g taunt users (bar crobat etc) and the latter benefiting from gravity support with moves like hypnosis etc
5-6. Support - Speed Control/Set-up Support/Intimidate/Status/Fast Mode/Top 4 Check etc. These spots are free for whatever the team needs. Examples: Whimsicott: Forms a gravity-benefiting duo with gengar (disable/encore + grass whistle etc); Liligant: Chlorophyll assisted After You with groudon forms an effective fast mode out of TR (will synergise well with all fast/slow groudon sets); Smeargle: Slow Dark Void with TR/gravity support is terrifying late game, can also Transform into groudon/kyurem for a late-game sweep (can also provide free turns for a TR set up with follow me/fake out support)

SalaMenace/Eakes' 2nd Place/Top 16 Anaheim Regionals team [Importable]



Baz Anderson/TheSaxLad's 4th Place Dublin Regionals Team [Analysis]



My 'Hybrid' Gravity Team [Team Showcase]


Playstyle: Set up / Combo-Based

Yveltal + Primal Kyogre

1. Yveltal
2. Kyogre
3. Mega - Mega Mawile sees a lot of usage here, able to check yveltal and xerneas, as well as many other common threats, such as salamence. Mega manectric also sees a lot of usage, given its ability to absorb electric attacks predominantly from thundurus. Mega Manectric also works well as a RayOgre check, which is important to consider. Other things to think about for this slot are use of intimidate and using a suitable kyogre check
4. Kyogre Check - All teams have a reliable way of beating kyogre, be this in the form of a lightning rod user like raichu, or a powerful grass type like ferrothorn. Choice Band wild charge Arcanine also saw usage on Alvin Mo's Anaheim team
5. Xerneas Check/Speed Control - These teams need a way to beat big 6 a little more reliably, so support from bronzong, crobat and gengar can be very useful to better the team's matchup. A late game TR Kyogre can be a nightmare for any big 6 team.
6. Necessary Support - Again, the team needs a final pokemon to round out the matchup against difficult opponents, so use of groudon counters such as landorus-t is useful here. Dark Aura abusers can also be seen on these teams, so weavile (who is also a great thundurus check) and liepard have seen usage on teams like this

Necrocat219's Team [Analysis]



Christopher Kugeler's Team



Christopher Arthur's Team



Alvin Mo's 5th Place Anaheim Team [Importable]


Playstyle: Balanced Offensive
 
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#2
(Part 2)

Primal Groudon+Yveltal
thanks to Sardus21 and Pyritie
Similar to Dark Spam, Groudon+Yveltal teams can still abuse the strength of dark spam but in a much more rounded approach, with less focus on dark-based offence and a greater focus on balanced team structure.

1. Groudon - Used as a xerneas check to aid yveltal, groudon will run a range of sets on this archetype, from mainly timid/jolly/modest groudon to possibly TR groudon if a TR mode is used on the team (e.g groudon/cresselia/kangaskhan/amoonguss)
2. Yveltal - Has an amazing support movepool: dark aura/tailwind/knock off etc and powerful offense thanks to STAB + dark aura with sucker punch for priority. Its immunity to ground can help against opposing groudon in a switch against an inevitable precipice blades/earth power
3. Mega - 4/5 teams use mega kangaskhan in this slot. Access to fake out support is vital for these teams and along with the perk of parental bond boosted sucker punch it can be a powerful support option for yveltal to aid in a tailwind set up. Mega gengar also sees usage here alongside crobat on Roman Isakov's team, suggesting a 'Japanese-style' approach to teambuilding using the gengar/crobat combo to combat 'big 6' teams
4. Kyogre Counter/2nd Mega - Countering kyogre with the supporting cast is vital to this archetype's success. This is why we see 1-2 of amoonguss/thundurus/raichu/ferrothorn on each of the sample teams. In this slot there is also usage of a secondary mega, salamence/mega mawile being used in the sample teams to provide extra coverage against primal groudon, rayquaza and xerneas where needed.
5. Speed Control - Usually tailwind/thunder wave/trick room, this slot aims to provide any extra speed control where needed, as both groudon and yveltal are relatively slow. 3/5 sample teams use crobat and 2/5 use talonflame. The ability to check xerneas seems apparent here, as it covers yveltal's biggest weakness and gives the team greater coverage against the big 6. Cresselia/Bronzong are other interesting picks that could also help vs xerneas with access to TR and gyro ball (bronzong)
6. Xerneas Counter/TR counter - Amoonguss and ferrothorn give the team better coverage against primal kyogre as well as xerneas which is a cool perk to these mons, Scizor has access to feint as well as a powerful priority in bullet punch for xerneas. TR counter also seems apparent for these roles, since most mons used here have a good matchup against common trick room cores with their low speed.

Arash Ommati's 1st Place Turin Team



Matt Coyle's 2nd Place Florida Team [Importable]



Alessio Yuri Boschetto's 1st Place Innsbruck Team



Roman Isakov's 7th Place Collinsville Team [Importable]



Christopher Arthur's 7th Place Glasgow Team



Sardus21's Groudon+Yveltal Team


Playstyle: Balanced Offensive

Giratina-Origin + Primal Groudon

1. Giratina-O - Excellent matchup against primals, and a great TR matchup. You would either aim to use giratina-o as a TR counter or an abuser, depending on personal preference.
2. Groudon-Primal - Excellent synergy with giratina-o, as it helps in the xerneas matchup greatly.
3. Mega - Kangaskhan, Salamence and and Mawile are both excellent choices for this archetype. Mawile is sometimes preferable to the builder as it is able to deal with the Yveltal matchup with ease, allowing gira-o to breath easy. Kangaskhan allows for fake out support, meaning archetypes like gravity are a little easier to beat. Salamence is a fantastic mega on this archetype, as it allows the team to beat Yveltal + Groudon a lot more efficiently with its access to hyper voice and double-edge/draco meteor, as a combination of both will enable salamence to KO both legends.
4. Xerneas Counter / Speed Control - Both roles are equally necessary on this kind of team, so the choice is yours. If you picked Mawile as your mega, you may want to double up the counter measures you have for xerneas, or perhaps forgo this and opt for a more speed control based route.
5. Kyogre Check / Support - Towards the 'back' of the team, roles are generally filled with what is necessary to the team, so some splashable members on this archetype include thundurus/ferrothorn/landorus etc. The use of jumpluff is also seen here on Ariel Romo's team, which is a unique and creative choice to deal with common threats.
6. Filler / Groudon Check - This choice should aim to fill in any cracks in teambuilding, or in Sebastian Lara's case, Weavile was the cornerstone of the team, and is what his team was built around (and is an Yveltal Check). Landorus-T serves an interesting purpose along groudon check: if giratina-o chooses to run tailwind, then landorus can function as an explosion lead to allow the tailwind set up if you choose. Of course this is not its main role, but is an interesting combo that can be achieved by the two.

Sebastian Lara's 2nd Place Chile Regs Team [Team Showcase]



Sam/MajorBowman's Team



Ariel Romo's Top Cut Chile Regs Team


Playstyle: Bulky Offensive

Rayquaza-Mega+Groudon-Primal

1. Rayquaza - A notable use of AV Rayquaza has been found on Enosh Shacar's Team. What AV allows Rayquaza to do is to beat its potential counters with a greater level of ease. Being able to take a (unboosted) moonblast from xerneas and a blizzard from Kyurem-White is huge. Unfortunately this may cut into the offenses so be aware of this when EVing.
2. Groudon-Primal - Groudon allows Rayquaza to beat Xerneas more easily. Groudon also rounds up Rayquaza's matchup against other potential threats, like dialga and kyurem-w
3. Speed Control / Support for Groudon - This slot ideally needs to be able to allow Groudon to beat Kyogre more easily due to Rayquaza's Delta Stream/Air Lock. Enosh's team is a fine example of this, as he uses Cresselia as skill swap support as well as a fantastic speed control user, which allows his groudon to win in situations where it otherwise could not. Speed control users also see a lot of usage in this slot, given Groudon's mediocre base speed.
4. Secondary Mega / Support - The next few roles are quite vague to identify due to the creativity of the sample teams and the number of roles each pokemon has access to. Enosh's team is in my opinion the 'standard' team for this archetype, as what kangaskhan does is allow the team to win effectively when rayquaza is not an ample choice, for example against kyurem-w gravity teams (a lead of scrappy kangaskhan+groudon can usually beat kyurem-white + gravity setter). Other support roles also take precedence: a groudon counter is useful in this slot, so the use of bulky water types can be seen.
5. Support for Rayquaza / TR Counter: Enosh's team uses weavile as a back-up fake out user when rayquaza is needed over kangaskhan. Weavile also fulfills the role of TR counter with access to fake out pressure. Slowbro is an interesting choice on Baz's team, as its access to after you allows the faster portion of the team to sweep a little more efficiently under TR, giving it a TR counter-like role.
6. RayOgre Counter - This role is pretty crucial on any Groudon+Rayquaza (or RayDon) team, as RayOgre always seeks to win the Groudon matchup. Some creative choices have been used in the sample teams so far: lapras, sylveon and weavile are all exemplar choices which allow the rest of the team to have a slightly easier time against this matchup, although it still plays a major threat.

Enosh Shacar's Team



Baz Anderson's Team [Analysis]



Jon Hu's Team [Blog Post]


Playstyle: Offensive

Check this section for OP updates (helps me minimize double posting in future) :
  • [Feb 9] Added a new framework in: Trick Room (Full/Semi)
  • [Feb 10] Added a Ho-Oh/Kyogre Framework thanks to Steven Stone
  • Added a simple mental checklist to each framework concerning the biggest threats to each build
  • [Feb 11] Added a Xerneas/Kyogre Framework thanks to Steven Stone
  • [Feb 13] Added a Groudon/Ho-Oh framework thanks to Namikaze
  • [Feb 14] Added a Dark Spam framework thanks to Sardus21
  • [Feb 24] Replaced the Trick Room Framework with a double primal framework thanks to Jibaku
  • [Feb 28] Added a Palkia + Primal Groudon Framework
  • [Mar 1] Added a Dialga+Primal Kyogre Framework thanks to Size and Therazer456
  • [Mar 12] Added a Gravity Spam Framework and a Xerneas/Rayquaza Framework thanks to Sardus21 and Psynergy
  • [Mar 15] Added a Groudon + Yveltal framework thanks to Sardus21 and Pyritie
  • Added importables to all recent american top cut teams thanks to RevRush
  • Added graphics for pokemon usage stats at regionals thanks to RpIndaHouse
 
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#3
Good thread! Really informative and covers a lot of the teambuilding process, so i'm going to share a few of my own ideas for the thread as well.

First of all, Kyogre + Xerneas and Groudon + Xerneas should be in different frameworks. One (Kyogre + Xerneas) focuses more on getting rid of threats for Xerneas to get a sweep than the other, and Xerneas + Groudon have a lot of other gameplan options than Xerneas + Kyogre. Plus, on the framework description, you mention that Primal Groudon is mandatory as it has a really good synergy with Xerneas which is absolutely true. You never want to face a Groudon + Xerneas endgame under Tailwind unless you can actually manage both (like, having a Ho-Oh on the field or sth)

So i'm going to contribute with some team frameworks as well: these are popular archetypes which definitely deserve a mention here.

Ho-Oh + Kyogre-Primal

1.- Primal Kyogre
2.- Ho-Oh. Ho-Oh acts as a Xerneas check, Special Primal Groudon counter and Bulky Grass-type check, which is specially appreciated by Primal Kyogre. If you want to, you can also run Tailwind on it so Ho-Oh performs as a Tailwind setter as well, and given its bulk it's easier to set up a Tailwind with it.
3.- Physical Primal Groudon check. Special Primal Groudon variants are really easy to beat with this duo, not so much for those physical variants carrying a Rock-type move. Pokemon such as Landorus-T and Mega Salamence perform extremely well on this role thanks to Intimidate, bulk, and a typing that isn't bothered by Primal Groudon's Precipice Blades.
4.- Bulky Grass-type. A Primal Kyogre check is more than needed on this build as everything can be either OHKOed or 2HKOed by Primal Kyogre. However, Grass-types are preferred as they don't make the core's matchup against Ferrothorn worse than what it already is. Ferrothorn is the preferred choice due to its typing and bulk, but Amoonguss can be used as well.
5.- Support / Fighting-type. This slot is pretty open for any support Pokemon you might want to add. Whimsicott, Smeargle, Togekiss, Clefairy, and Liepard can perform really well in this build, but if you like you can add a more offensive support, you should ideally add a Fighting-type capable of doing massive damage to Ferrothorn as well as hitting Kangaskhan hard in the way. This includes Pokemon such as Infernape, Mienshao, and Terrakion.
6.- Mega Evolution / Support. Even if you picked Mega Salamence, this slot is usually open for a Mega Evolution. Mega Gengar, Mega Mawile and Mega Kangaskhan do pretty well in this archetype, but if you don't have a clear way of beating Smeargle usually Mega Kangaskhan is the way to go. If you have picked Mega Salamence but you don't want to have a secondary Mega Evolution, another support Pokemon might do it. An alternative speed control method can be used, but players usually opt for a Fake Out user in this slot. Taunt users are also really good, regardless if you're a fast team (against Trick Room) or a slow team (against Smeargle). Pokemon such as Thundurus, Meowstic, Raichu, Sableye, and the aforementioned Fake Out users can work in this last slot.


Team examples is sth i can't add atm because i don't have my PC back just yet but i'm more than sure that you can find them. _LightCore made a post on his Nugget Bridge blog regarding some of the Regionals across the world and their usage stats and within the top 8 teams you will find some Kyogre + Ho-Oh teams.
 
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#4
Thankyou so much for your reply :)
I will definitely add your framework in, Ho-oh kyogre looks pretty threatening
You mention that xerneas/kyogre focus on removing threats, should the framework be any different for the supporting mons?
Could you maybe send me a link to his blog, i can't find it
I will try to write everything up on friday
Thanks again
 
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#5
Updated the thread with a separate xerneas/primal kyogre framework, and a load more teams to each framework including Ho-Oh/Primal Kyogre.
Also added a simple mental checklist to each framework concerning the biggest threats to each build :)
Enjoy
 
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#6
Good Xerneas + Primal Kyogre! However, I'm not completely sure about the framework, mainly 'cause you seem to ignore Ferrothorn, like, completely. That can't happen in this build were both restricted Pokemon are weak to it.
You can analyse my reasoning and i'm pretty sure you can pull out example for Pokemon fitting these requirements:

1. Kyogre
2. Xerneas
3. Ferrothorn check (Mention that Talonflame is the best bet, but Infernape can do the job as well. Also mention that a Pokemon capable of OHKOing Ferrothorn or even, KOing it after a Water Spout / Origin Pulse also works. In this kind of build i've seen a lot of Fire Blast Mega Salamence and even Fire Fang Mega Mawile)
4. Physical Groudon check (most likely pulling out a Mega Salamence out of this one)
5. Primal Kyogre check
6. Mega / Secondary Mega / Support

If you check most of the example teams you'll see that this is, indeed, the framework and this is what it kinda makes it different than Xerneas + Groudon. It's more centralized on getting rid of threats for Xerneas whereas Xerneas + Groudon doesn't care that much. Xerneas + Groudon focuses more on getting the team to the ideal endgame scenario, and if that has to be reached via +2 Xern or by a Groudon under Tailwind, it doesn't matter that much. You have plenty of options to make your opponent fear you that you can even win games with Kangaskhan by just clicking Sucker Punch if you reach the ideal endgame. That's at least my own experience with the archetype.
 
#7
Got it :) thanks for pointing that one out
I'll update the framework with your suggestions, should i find some other sample teams that fit your slightly different build?

Done

So what cores would you like to see frameworks for in future? Have we missed out any popular archetypes that you want to see covered?
 
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#9
I will have a look :)
Groudon+Ho-Oh is definitely one that i've been interested in researching, so you can expect a sun framework some time soon
EDIT: I have also added in 3 new sample teams:
Trick Room (Full/Semi)
Gilberto Goracci's 3rd Place Rome Regional Double Primal Semi TR Team

Ho-Oh + Primal Kyogre
James Baek's Top 8 Kings Games PC Team
Dennis Hick's 3rd Place Denton PC Team
 
#10
I was wondering if tailwind should get a special mention or not for team building frameworks because even though it is splashable, it allows certain pokemon to check things that would otherwise beat them and/or run bulkier sets.
 
#11
I'll see what i can do :)
EDIT: I have edited in a special tailwind mention to the xerneas/groudon framework (groudon really appreciates it in the mirror match)
 

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#12
Another framework that can go in here is Groudon + Kyogre. Double primal have some of the best defensive coverage and individual power in the game, both thanks to the amount of weather control you have. The potential for conflict is also quite big, however.
 
#13
Cool :) i will separate the frameworks for trick room/double primal into two different ones with extra teams etc over the weekend, as well as adding a new sun framework
Have you guys got any suggestions for these new frameworks?
 
#14
I would like to make some suggestions:what about frameworks like Groudon/Yveltal and Kyogre/Yveltal?
Also,Dark Aura spam (like Yveltal/Liepard/M-Mawile or M-Gengar) is pretty good (I tested a couple of teams based on it on the ladder).
Hope I brought something useful in this thread :)
 
#15
A Palkia framework is definitely Palkia + Groudon. Palkia's resistance to Water and Fire makes it the perfect fit for those teams, and it isn't even mandatory for it to be Trick Room thanks to Palkia's base speed, which is above average in a meta where 90s rule. I'm working on it, but thanks to a certain player i can break down the archetype with ease.
 
#16
Okay so these are some upcoming frameworks:
Sun (groudon hooh)
Double primal
Dark spam (yveltal/mawile/liepard/groudon)
Palkia groudon (steven stone)

If anyone has suggestions for the frameworks (sample teams/team patterns etc) please share them, it takes a lot of thought/research to come up with these
Thanks :)
 
#17
So i've had a go at finding some teams for a groudon/ho-oh framework, and i wanted to discuss this framework a bit with everyone on the thread before it goes up

Some notable example teams i've found on nugget bridge/smogon that i've found (i've tried to line up the roles a bit, the last few mons is where the framework gets shaky):

Namikaze's sun team


Tony's Sun Team (top 4 GooseCreek PC)



Sassan's Sun Team (1st place blaziken series #4 PC)



So from these teams i've come up with a rough framework:

1 Ho-Oh
2 Primal Groudon
3 Physical Groudon Check - Mega Salamence/Landorus-T/Skill Swap Cresselia
4 Fake Out/Redirection Support / Bulky Grass - Amoonguss/Weavile/Ferrothorn
5 Speed Control / Set-up Counter - Gengar/Crobat/Thundurus
6 Support (whatever's missing)

Not too sure if this works, so if you have any suggestions or if you've had experience with this kind of archetype i would really appreciate the help :)

Also here are my ideas for double primal, from recycling old sample teams for the framework, it would be good to find some more for this and for TR:

Kyle Cole Double Primal Semi TR



Draconid997 Double Primal Semi TR



Blake Hopper's 2nd Place Denton PC Double Primal TR Team



Jeremy Mantingh Double Primal Semi TR (5th place Glasgow)


Gilberto Goracci's 3rd Place Rome Regional Double Primal Semi TR Team



1 Groudon
2 Primal Kyogre
3 Speed Control/Primal Support – Cresselia mainly, access to gravity, helping hand, skill swap, magic coat etc
4 Support (Fake out/redirection/After You etc) – Can be mega kangaskhan
5 Mega – Salamence = Groudon/Rayquaza Mawile = Xerneas/Rayquaza
6 Secondary Speed Control/Support/Fast Mode – If trick room is chosen, Tailwind is a good option for medium speed mons on the team: kangaskhan, kyogre, salamence, smeargle (+quick guard in 2 cases)

And here are my ideas for dark spam:

Pokemon.com’s recommended team



1st SIMONE CASINI - 9/01/2016 SAN GIOVANNI VALDARNO



4th ROY LAZZERINI - 9/01/2016 SAN GIOVANNI VALDARNO



Gonbe’s dark team



1. Yveltal – dark aura setter + foul play + sucker punch
2. Groudon – weather setter + typing synergy
3. Mawile – handles Xerneas/Rayquaza + sucker punch
4. Liepard – Fake out support + SwagPlay etc
5-6. Support needed:
Xerneas counter - ferrothorn, crobat, thundurus
Primal Groudon counter - salamence, landorus-t, cresselia+primal groudon
Primal Kyogre - Weather Change support/ferrothorn
Speed Control - TR, Tailwind, Thunder Wave etc

Discuss
 
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#18
If I can help,when I build dark spam teams I usually start with Yveltal/Liepard/Mawile/Crobat (this last one is sooooo good against xerneas especially with Taunt+speed control+Super Fang).
Then I add the Primal of choice and from there I continue, but usually I add Groudon+Ferrothorn (usually the best ones) or Kyogre+Ferrothorn ( where I use Thunder Kyogre as another shaky Kyogre check), but I also found Amoonguss to be useful in some matchups in place of Ferrothorn.
I hope this can be useful!
 
#20
Im not that sure if double primal deserves to have its own separate framework, its really similar to the trick room framework and its already mentioned in that quite a bit :/ what do you think?
Are there any worthy double primal tailwind etc teams?
 
#21
For the sun teams, i am pretty sure that everyone built their team in different ways.

In my case i wanted ho-oh and gengar for speed control and then ran salamence for intimidate support and a primal and rayquaza check. Primal groudon then fit in really well to the team as it hit the hardest and covered up my kyogre weakness. Weavile was indeed fake out and a pseudo anti trick room measure since i focused on bringing my speed up and lowering my opponents speed. Lando was put on as an extra support mon.

But if i were to start that team off with (1) ho-oh and (2) primal groudon, i would feel that my next mon would be (3) weather support or anti kyogre such as cress, ferro, or the gimmicky role play liepard. At this point it would seem like i can play a team that abuses both trick room and tailwind and and put on (4) the missing speed control in cress or crobat, or a slow mon such as ferro or mawile. Then i would consider my (5) mega for the team in mawile or kang or another mon depending on my needs. Or course, at this point you see alot of roles overlapping with previous choices. The team appears well rounded out at this point and my last slot would go to (6) any support, fast mon, or something to cover gaping holes i see in the team.

Hope this helps more than it confuses haha
 
#22
Thanks a lot for your contribution and well done on your IC run, you built a very solid team
Anyway, i've compiled your ideas into a framework that fits most sample teams as well as a checklist for any things the framework hadn't already covered :)

1 Ho-Oh
2 Primal Groudon
3 Weather Support / Kyogre Check: Ferrothorn/Cresselia/Liepard
4 Speed Control - (Cresselia)/Crobat/Gengar/Thundurus
5 Mega - Salamence (Rayquaza/Groudon)/Mawile (Xerneas/Rayquaza)/Kangaskhan (Fake Out Support)
6 Support - (whatever's missing: Fake Out/Redirection/Intimidate etc): (kangaskhan)/weavile/landorus-t etc

Checklist for supporting mons:
- primal kyogre check x1 (Bulky grass/weather support etc)
- primal groudon check x2 (cresselia+groudon/salamence/landorus-t etc)
- xerneas check x1 (TR (cresselia)/icy wind/steel type/taunt etc)
- rayquaza check x1 (weavile/salamence/ferrothorn/mawile etc)
- TR check

I'll upload this onto the OP for now; if i've missed anything tell me :)
Thanks
 
#23
Thanks for the reply :)
Its cool to know that you build in a similar style to the initial framework, i'll make sure kyogre gets a mention
If it can help,when I am at home I can pass you the importables of my dark spam teams,so that you can see :)
Anyway,even if a special set is the most common choice for Yveltal (or a mixed one), I feel that especially for the teams that use Tailwind as speed control mode (especially with Crobat) Knock Off deserves a place on Yveltal set for its ability to OHKO Cresselia and preventing Trick Room activation :)

Hope this can be useful for the frameworks!
 
#24
If it can help,when I am at home I can pass you the importables of my dark spam teams,so that you can see :)
Anyway,even if a special set is the most common choice for Yveltal (or a mixed one), I feel that especially for the teams that use Tailwind as speed control mode (especially with Crobat) Knock Off deserves a place on Yveltal set for its ability to OHKO Cresselia and preventing Trick Room activation :)

Hope this can be useful for the frameworks!
If you could send me some sample teams that would be really useful :)

Just an aesthetic thing, should i replace the used sprites with proper sugimori art?
 
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#25
If you could send me some sample teams that would be really useful :)
Sorry Draconid997 I could not send this to you by PM so I post here:

Yveltal @ Weakness Policy
Ability: Dark Aura
Level: 50
EVs: 44 HP / 76 Def / 4 SpA / 132 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Oblivion Wing
- Dark Pulse
- Snarl
- Protect

Kyogre-Primal @ Blue Orb
Ability: Primordial Sea
Level: 50
EVs: 140 HP / 12 Def / 188 SpA / 4 SpD / 164 Spe
Timid Nature
- Thunder
- Origin Pulse
- Ice Beam
- Protect

Liepard @ Focus Sash
Ability: Prankster
Level: 50
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Encore
- Taunt
- Foul Play
- Fake Out

Mawile @ Mawilite
Ability: Intimidate
Level: 50
EVs: 204 HP / 196 Atk / 108 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Iron Head
- Sucker Punch
- Play Rough
- Protect

Ferrothorn @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Iron Barbs
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 220 Atk / 36 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Power Whip
- Gyro Ball
- Leech Seed
- Protect

Crobat @ Lum Berry
Ability: Inner Focus
Level: 50
EVs: 44 HP / 212 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Tailwind
- Taunt
- Super Fang
- Quick Guard

This is the team with P-Kyogre,I couldn't find the one with Groudon but it was basically the same with P-Don in place of P-Kyo and worked really well (I used a physically based set for the Xerneas match-up).I followed this framework to build it:

-Yveltal (obviously);
-1st Dark Aura abuser (Liepard);
-2nd Dark Aura abuser (Mawile,that also works as Xerneas check);
-Speed control (Crobat,that resists fairy attacks as well and support the team with Tailwind+other support moves);
-Primal Mon (Here is Kyogre because it sinergies really well with Mawile and works as Groudon check and opposing Kyogre check with Thunder,but it can also be Groudon for another fairy resist+good mon in general);
-Other support (I have Ferrothorn for having another Xerneas check+Kyogre check and rendering better my Trick Room matchup,but I could really put here Amoonguss too for Spore+Rage Powder and more or less the same typing with the same resistances I needed.It can also be something completely different).

Also,as I said before,by my opinion Yveltal could perfectly use this set as well:

Yveltal @ Black Glasses/Life Orb
Ability: Dark Aura
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Knock Off
- Sucker Punch
- Foul Play/Whatever move
- Protect

This lets Yveltal to have a great chance to OHKO Trick Room Cresselia with max power Knock Off (great thing for a Tailwind based team like mine).

Also,Foul Play can perfectly replace Snarl in the special set with Black Glasses/Life Orb as the item.

I hope this can help and I have not been too long in the explanation,the team has obviously its flaws but works wonders under the right hands.
Thanks :)