Resource VGC '16 Teambuilding Frameworks

#51
Why does the Big 6 team have two megas on it? Is the idea to pick the mega depending on what you see in Team Preview?
I completely agree with Jibaku, the megas are there for support:
Kangaskhan provides fake out support, which is great set up support for talonflame/xerneas/smeargle, as well as helping out groudon in mirror matches etc
Salamence provides a check to mega rayquaza and primal groudon, which rounds out the team nicely. It also provides intimidate support, which is great for a set up xerneas with +2 SpD. It also provides offensive pressure with a spammable move in hyper voice, which is really useful alongside xerneas etc for chip damage
 
#52
There's been a bit of an increase in popularity of Kyurem-W/Groudon gravity teams, so i've found a few teams that show a bit of a pattern. Again if you want to contribute anything to this by all means do so (sorry about the iffy sizes of the sprites, there's no functional sprites on nugget bridge for meowstic-m/kyurem-w):

SalaMenace/Eakes' 2nd Place/Top 16 Anaheim Regionals team



Joohwan Kim's 5th Place Virginia Regionals Team



TheSaxLad's 4th Place Dublin Regionals Team




Framework:
1. Kyurem-White - A range of sets, can be slow for use in TR or can be fast (e.g scarf) as used in SalaMenace/Eakes' team, as prankster gravity + fast blizzard can be devastating
2. Groudon-Primal - Again a range of sets, usually slow for TR, or can be run fast if TR is not on the team (e.g TheSaxLad's team)
3. Gravity Setter - Cresselia: Gravity/TR/Skill Swap; Meowstic: Gravity/TR/Safeguard/Swagger; Sableye: Gravity/Fake Out/Feint/Magic Coat/Taunt/Confuse Ray etc
4. Mega - Kangaskhan/Gengar are two exemplar megas here, the former allowing TR to be set up against hard matchups e.g taunt users (bar crobat etc) and the latter benefiting from gravity support with moves like hypnosis etc
5-6. Support - Speed Control/Set-up Support/Intimidate/Status/Fast Mode/Top 4 Check etc. Whimsicott: Forms a gravity-benefiting duo with gengar (disable/encore + grass whistle etc); Liligant: Chlorophyll assisted After You with groudon forms an effective fast mode out of TR (will synergise well with all fast/slow groudon sets); Smeargle: Slow Dark Void with TR/gravity support is terrifying late game, can also Transform into groudon/kyurem for a late-game sweep (can also provide free turns for a TR set up with follow me/fake out support)
 
#54
I will try find some sample xerneas/rayquaza teams :)
I can imagine it's good for countering primal groudon which xerneas struggles against but at the same time i would probably say that those two mons really limit your team choices and a core of xerneas/salamence/primal might suit you better

Yi-Xuan Chen (7th place singapore):

Emanuel Guzman (6th argentina):


Not many sample teams sorry :/
 

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#55
I honestly think Ray/Xern is a really strong archetype that isn't getting as much usage as it could, I've had solid success with it and less reliance on shaky accuracy moves (beyond Draco Meteor) is a cool perk. Though I'd say that comes down to the lack of good options for covering some of their weak points, which in turn highlights the cool techs I feel this archetype attracts that can help it both in Bo1 while still retaining consistency for Bo3.

While the idea of just using Xerneas/Primal/Salamence might be a solid alternative, Salamence is less immediately dangerous against other threats in general since it can't OHKO as many things and lacks priority. Rayquaza checks Primals and beats most things in general better than Salamence can which is very notable in the case of Primal Groudon, and functions as an incredibly strong win condition whereas Xerneas + redirection and Fake Out support makes it much more tricky for Salamence to check Rayquaza. Checking both Xerneas and Rayquaza is pretty tricky in general though Steel-types tend to be annoying since Rayquaza typically wants Draco Meteor to hit Groudon on this archetype as opposed to Overheat (though Earth Power works too), and Waterfall isn't KOing Steels without like a flinch, so I'd say Talonflame would generally be super popular on this archetype which also has the added bonus of checking Xerneas to an extent. I feel you also typically want a second Groudon answer as well which would probably be something like Landorus-T which also threatens Steels.

I'm in agreement with Jibaku's line of thinking in that Xerneas needs redirection to be as threatening as it is or it's just not that deadly honestly, and many of Rayquaza's checks struggle to win when redirection is supporting it so I'd say one of the common redirectors is something the team wants. Trick Room also tends to be annoying for this pair so options against Trick Room fit nicely (which makes Talonflame especially good on this team), whether it's Amoonguss/Ferrothorn, Smeargle, Taunts and Prankster mons, an anti-Trick Room user or just immense pressure from stuff like Fake Out to prevent Trick Room from actually going up. Sometimes finding stuff to fill these roles can be tough, notably stuff that can check Groudon outside of Rayquaza, but other than that I think it's a strong archetype that could use some more attention.
 
#56
Great analysis!
Covers loads of crucial points, so thanks for the reply
So from what youve said, a possible framework might be:

1. Xerneas
2. Rayquaza
3. Redirection (amoonguss/smeargle etc)
4. Groudon check/support (landorus-t/talonflame etc)
5. TR check (taunt/prankster/anti-TR user/fake out etc)
6. Support (?)

Hopefully more xerneas/rayquaza teams will top cut so we can confirm this
Have you got any xern/ray teams that you build to a certain framework?
 

Psynergy

Fighting defines me, and I will not lose.
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#57
Great analysis!
Covers loads of crucial points, so thanks for the reply
So from what youve said, a possible framework might be:

1. Xerneas
2. Rayquaza
3. Redirection (amoonguss/smeargle etc)
4. Groudon check/support (landorus-t/talonflame etc)
5. TR check (taunt/prankster/anti-TR user/fake out etc)
6. Support (?)

Hopefully more xerneas/rayquaza teams will top cut so we can confirm this
Have you got any xern/ray teams that you build to a certain framework?
The Ray/Xern team I use follows roughly that same framework.

1. Xerneas - the usual
2. Rayquaza - LO Draco Ray to OHKO fast Groudon, Earth Power might work for hitting Steels too but Draco is just good and also hits Dragons for huge damage.
3. Talonflame - general support, TW + Quick Guard, Steel check, Xerneas check, functions fine in TR; I'd honestly never run Ray + Xern without Talonflame but that's just me, I feel it offers so much for this duo
4. Amoonguss (secondary Kyogre check, Xerneas check, redirection, TR check) - primarily fills the redirection role, but also serves as a TR check since it tends to be good against TR teams despite Groudon existing now.
5. Landorus-T (secondary Groudon check, Steel check, Intimidate support for Xerneas) - fills the secondary Groudon check role more thoroughly than Talonflame, really useful for allowing some flexibility and not forcing to me bring and preserve Ray for every Groudon. The last point is super important.
6. Weavile (Fake Out + Feint, TR deterrent, extra Salamence check) - Ray/Weavile and Xern/Weavile are cool leads, fastest Fake Out is nice for this team and it checks Mence. Also scares common TR setters since Weavile + one of the above does a solid job of pressuring most TR users.

I haven't used it but I feel like Suicune could be a neat option for this duo in the same vein as the above Gyarados, I feel like otherwise uncommon Water-type supports + Rayquaza makes for another cool option to reduce the strain on Rayquaza taking care of Groudon on its own.
 
#58
Cool cool :)
I'll make sure you get a mention when i upload the framework
It's getting pretty late here so i'll try piecing everything together tomorrow, thanks a lot for your contribution (also thank you Sardus21 for mentioning it)
 
#61
Sorry, necessary double post here:

THE OP IS GETTING CLOSE TO THE CHARACTER LIMIT

Due to this, i have taken down surplus sample teams that either didn't top cut a regionals or didn't show structural significance (especially to the RayOgre/Double Primal frameworks). I have also taken down all the team support checklists, as i felt that they weren't as necessary as the general frameworks. I love the creativity in this format but hopefully there won't be tonnes more legendary combos to feature here as it means taking away from the rest of the OP.

Possible Future OP Removals (i don't want to seem pessimistic or whatever since this is kind of necessary):
  • Cutting down descriptions in general frameworks
  • Removing the general team checklist:
Team 'Checklist':

Whilst not necessarily an official checklist, these are some considerations that should be made when finalizing a team:

Have you got sufficient* counters to the biggest threats in the format?:


(How To Counter or Check) (open)


(How To Counter or Check) (open)


(How To Counter or Check) (open)

*imho two counters should suffice for each threat

Other possible requirements:
- Way to change the weather
- Taunt
- Speed Control (i would recommend +/- 2 methods)
- Status
- Redirection/Set up
- Physical/Special Mix
  • Keeping the number of sample teams down to a maximum of 8 teams
  • Make a PART 2 to this thread if necessary
Just wanted to make sure most people are okay with this

EDIT: Dammit, i could just splice half of the frameworks into the second post XD
 
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Psynergy

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#64
Hopefully more xerneas/rayquaza teams will top cut so we can confirm this
Done. Figured I would at least mention this since I noticed a familiar name when I rewatched the stream but the team I posted got me a Top 4 finish (4th if we're being technical) at the Norcal Midseason Showdown. Notably this exact team apparently got Huy to build his team to be prepared for me, someone who he's encountered only once before two weeks prior (he then beat me 2-1 and took finals). Lots of praise for this team, Ray/Xern is scary.
 
#65
Done. Figured I would at least mention this since I noticed a familiar name when I rewatched the stream but the team I posted got me a Top 4 finish (4th if we're being technical) at the Norcal Midseason Showdown. Notably this exact team apparently got Huy to build his team to be prepared for me, someone who he's encountered only once before two weeks prior (he then beat me 2-1 and took finals). Lots of praise for this team, Ray/Xern is scary.
Brilliant!
Congrats on your finish, i can definitely see this archetype growing in future :)
 
#68
Since I suggested the Mewtwo framework,I'll post the team that Riccardo Appamea used to win Preganziol regionals in January.It was Kangaskhan, Rayquaza, Mewtwo, Talonflame, Amoonguss, and Suicune.
 
#69
#70
Actually palkia kyogre have a really good matchup vs groudon esp with weather support, it's xerneas/rayquaza they hate (Psynergy ahem ahem :p)

Since I suggested the Mewtwo framework,I'll post the team that Riccardo Appamea used to win Preganziol regionals in January.It was Kangaskhan, Rayquaza, Mewtwo, Talonflame, Amoonguss, and Suicune.
Cool thanks :)
Once we get about 3 mewtwo teams then a framework will become a bit more apparent, another one i've seen is
5th Stockholm Regi's Rey:
 
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#71
I'm thinking we might be adding an yveltal/groudon framework next to dark spam in future since Arash Omnati, Matt Coyle, Alessio Yuri Boschetto, Christopher Arthur and Roman Isakov all recently top cut with these pretty similar Yveltal/Groudon teams:
1st Turin Arash Ommati:

2nd Florida Matt Coyle:

1st Innsbruck Alessio Yuri Boschetto:

7th Collinsville Roman Isakov:

7th Glasgow Christopher Arthur:


Framework:

1 - Groudon
2 - Yveltal
3 - Fake Out Support/Mega
4 - Support/Mega
5 - Speed Control
6 - Xerneas Counter/Support

Alternatively:

1 - Groudon
2 - Yveltal
3 - Mega
4 - Kyogre Counter (amoonguss/thundurus/raichu/ferrothorn)
5 - Speed Control
6 - Xerneas Counter/TR counter

What do you guys think?
 
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#72
I'm thinking we might be adding an yveltal/groudon framework next to dark spam in future since Arash Omnati, Matt Coyle, Alessio Yuri Boschetto, Christopher Arthur and Roman Isakov all recently top cut with these pretty similar Yveltal/Groudon teams:
1st Turin Arash Ommati:

2nd Florida Matt Coyle:

1st Innsbruck Alessio Yuri Boschetto:

7th Collinsville Roman Isakov:

7th Glasgow Christopher Arthur:


Framework:

1 - Groudon
2 - Yveltal
3 - Fake Out Support
4 - Support/Mega
5 - Speed Control
6 - Xerneas Counter/Support

What do you guys think?
"Kyogre check" looks important too -- thundurus, raichu, ferrothorn. And the last slot in all five teams looks like some sort of anti-trick-room mon.
 
#73
Alternatively:

1 - Groudon
2 - Yveltal
3 - Mega
4 - Kyogre Counter (amoonguss/thundurus/raichu/ferrothorn)
5 - Speed Control
6 - Xerneas Counter/Support
yup, realised XD
lol this is the second time, great minds think alike i guess, i'll include TR counter too
 
#74
As an avid user of dark spam I agree with this.Kangaskhan is way too good with Parental Bond Sucker Punch for this kind of teams. Note that you can also run a Semi Trick Room option with a Kanga Groudon Cress (and Mawile is fine too and Scizor as well even as a secondary mega thanks to the great bulk and typing+priority).You can also use amoonguss for checking both Kyogre and Xerneas so that you can make a free slot for something else (other Xerneas check,other support,whatever you need).
Pyritie did a good job in pointing out a TR counter in the 6th slot but I wanted to point out the Semi TR and the Amoonguss thing,also for adding more flexibility both in the framework and in the teambuilding phase.
Hope this can be useful!
 
#75
As an avid user of dark spam I agree with this.Kangaskhan is way too good with Parental Bond Sucker Punch for this kind of teams. Note that you can also run a Semi Trick Room option with a Kanga Groudon Cress (and Mawile is fine too and Scizor as well even as a secondary mega thanks to the great bulk and typing+priority).You can also use amoonguss for checking both Kyogre and Xerneas so that you can make a free slot for something else (other Xerneas check,other support,whatever you need).
Pyritie did a good job in pointing out a TR counter in the 6th slot but I wanted to point out the Semi TR and the Amoonguss thing,also for adding more flexibility both in the framework and in the teambuilding phase.
Hope this can be useful!
This is definitely useful :)
i'll try update the OP tomorrow with this framework if you want, do you think that it should replace dark spam or go as a separate framework?

EDIT: Looking at sample teams, i reckon dark spam should stay since they dont all follow the yveltal groudon framework
 
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