VGC 17 Discussion Thread

Inciniroar is a mediocre check to marowak-a and tapu Lele. It struggles against rain, gigalith, salamence, gyarados, gastrodon, krookodile, garchomo. Not worth it IMO, esp since it doesn't have access to Intimidate yet.
I second this. Once it gets access to Intimidate, it will be really good but until then, it's just a mediocre Fire Type that wishes it was Arcanine or Alolan-Marowak.
Dang really? Thought its access to fake out and stats would make it useful in trick room. Especially seeing one of the regional vgc results (Venezuela?) had the first place guy running one.
 
Dang really? Thought its access to fake out and stats would make it useful in trick room. Especially seeing one of the regional vgc results (Venezuela?) had the first place guy running one.
It's too fast to be used in Trick Room this generation. It's still decent thanks to Fake Out and decent natural bulk but it won't become really good until it gets Intimidate, then it's going to be one of the best Fire types with Arcanine and Marowak.
 
Well just looking at the results for the top cut of Dallas regionals there's been a rather massive surge in the popularity of Tapu Fini after being nowhere to be seen in San Jose and London other than Enosh's second place team in San Jose. What are your guys thoughts on it? I haven't had the opportunity to watch the top cut matches so I'm not too sure what sets they tend to run, though I know of the Specs set that Sejun Park popularized and the Sub Calm Mind set that Enosh used but with so many being used successfully there must be some cool options that I haven't seen yet.

I also see quite a few Vikavolt which previously I've only seen on the low ladder. Does anyone know what exactly that is meant to do? I understand it pairs well with grounds to spam Discharge + EQ while functioning well in TR but other than that I don't really know since I again I'm yet to see it in action.
 
Would it be a bad move to add salamence to a sand trick room team? And if not what moveset would be best? Mixed nature? Fly or dragonium-z?

Figured I could use a good mon outside of TR. it also gets tailwind, bad or good idea for it?
 
Would it be a bad move to add salamence to a sand trick room team? And if not what moveset would be best? Mixed nature? Fly or dragonium-z?

Figured I could use a good mon outside of TR. it also gets tailwind, bad or good idea for it?
Salamence doesn't get Tailwind, but its still definitely not a bad choice. It really depends what your team needs, but it provides Intimidate, a ground immunity, decent speed and a strong nuke option. The set really should depend on the team, but I believe most run Timid max speed to at least speed tie with opposing Mence and to outspeed max speed base 95s and below like Arcanine, Lele and Krook.

But definitely, you generally want a fast mode on Trick Room teams since they don't always have the most favourable of matchups. That being said, hard trick room won San Jose (with no Tapus/UBs to add) so it definitely is viable. Look at what other people have found success with and mess around with things to make it yours.

Oh and just to clarify, what do you mean by 'Fly or dragonium-z?' If you mean Flyinium Z, Mence doesn't really get any flying moves worth using. If you mean the move Fly then...no lol. But for the most part Mence really values Dragonium Z since it allows it to use a stronger Draco meteor once without suffering attack drops.
 
Salamence doesn't get Tailwind, but its still definitely not a bad choice. It really depends what your team needs, but it provides Intimidate, a ground immunity, decent speed and a strong nuke option. The set really should depend on the team, but I believe most run Timid max speed to at least speed tie with opposing Mence and to outspeed max speed base 95s and below like Arcanine, Lele and Krook.

But definitely, you generally want a fast mode on Trick Room teams since they don't always have the most favourable of matchups. That being said, hard trick room won San Jose (with no Tapus/UBs to add) so it definitely is viable. Look at what other people have found success with and mess around with things to make it yours.

Oh and just to clarify, what do you mean by 'Fly or dragonium-z?' If you mean Flyinium Z, Mence doesn't really get any flying moves worth using. If you mean the move Fly then...no lol. But for the most part Mence really values Dragonium Z since it allows it to use a stronger Draco meteor once without suffering attack drops.
I meant flyinnium z for the move fly. But alright thanks for advice
 
Well just looking at the results for the top cut of Dallas regionals there's been a rather massive surge in the popularity of Tapu Fini after being nowhere to be seen in San Jose and London other than Enosh's second place team in San Jose. What are your guys thoughts on it? I haven't had the opportunity to watch the top cut matches so I'm not too sure what sets they tend to run, though I know of the Specs set that Sejun Park popularized and the Sub Calm Mind set that Enosh used but with so many being used successfully there must be some cool options that I haven't seen yet.

I also see quite a few Vikavolt which previously I've only seen on the low ladder. Does anyone know what exactly that is meant to do? I understand it pairs well with grounds to spam Discharge + EQ while functioning well in TR but other than that I don't really know since I again I'm yet to see it in action.
Tapu fini is definitely a good bulky water, but that amount of usage isn't right. It's very comparable to suicune with less bulk, no tailwind, but a better typing.
 
Tapu fini is definitely a good bulky water, but that amount of usage isn't right. It's very comparable to suicune with less bulk, no tailwind, but a better typing.
Hmmmm true, though I think the fact that it competes in the terrain war is very desirable in this format as opposed to having a mostly rather useless ability other than for PP stalling. I also think the access to Muddy Water is pretty huge since for the most part it's the only move you really need to click to beat the majority of the slow portion of the metagame (things like Marowak, Gigalith, Mudsdale, Incineroar etc) as well as hitting a large portion of the meta for 2HKOs making it a very spammable move which works wonders on a specs set. I do agree that the spike in usage is probably due to overhype, but after watching it in action a bit I definitely see why it should have a place in the metagame other than as an Eevee pass recipient. Oh btw the fact that Suicune gets access to Icy Wind (can't remember if it was allowed in '15 but I know it's used a lot in DOU), Snarl and can get Scald burns sets it a part from Fini quite a bit imo
 

Pocket

be the upgraded version of me
is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
Tapu Fini has been largely used for SPecs or Sub CM, but I personally like Fini for its utility. Misty Terrain is an amazing ability, and it makes Side Swag a viable strategy. Tapu Fini also has access to unique support options, such as Heal Pulse and Soak to aid its partner. Tapu Fini + Tapu Bulu is a fun pair to bust through the opposing team with Soak + Wood Hammer. Tapu Fini also pairs nicely with physical attackers, who it can boost its power with Swagger and keep the boosted mon around with Heal Pulse. Bulky pokemon like Metagross, Snorlax, and Mudsdale are great Side Swag + Heal Pulse recipients.
 

Theorymon

Let's a do the truffle shuffle!
is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Live Chat Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributoris a Battle Server Moderatoris a CAP Contributor Alumnus
Moderator
Tapu Fini seems to have spread to the cart ladder by the way. I'd say I've seen it every other match, even among Japanese teams. I haven't actually seen anyone on cart use Sub CM, they've all been Choice Specs. The partners for it are all over the place too. For example, I've seen people use it with Instruct Oranguru, on rain teams, on TR teams (not hard ones)... It seems to fit on a lot of teams!
 
Tapu Fini seems to have spread to the cart ladder by the way. I'd say I've seen it every other match, even among Japanese teams. I haven't actually seen anyone on cart use Sub CM, they've all been Choice Specs. The partners for it are all over the place too. For example, I've seen people use it with Instruct Oranguru, on rain teams, on TR teams (not hard ones)... It seems to fit on a lot of teams!
Well I mean it shouldn't be all that surprising considering Sejun's success was originally on the cart. According to the trainer tower article people were copying his team and playing already knowing his sets by the end of his ladder run.

I still feel there is some untapped potential in Fini though. Surely it isn't just the specs set that is viable. At least for a very specific team.

does anyone have a list of the spreads and moves of these pokemon?
There will never be such a list. VGC players often reuse their teams and only give out information like spreads and movesets if they are retiring the team for good. Some people (I believe Wolfey did this with his Scrafty set in '15) might even withhold EV information if they believe the information isn't already common knowledge and they may use the same set again in the future. Basically you're going to have to rely on the information that people are willing to give you or try to figure it out for yourself by watching their games and running calcs.
 
There will never be such a list. VGC players often reuse their teams and only give out information like spreads and movesets if they are retiring the team for good. Some people (I believe Wolfey did this with his Scrafty set in '15) might even withhold EV information if they believe the information isn't already common knowledge and they may use the same set again in the future. Basically you're going to have to rely on the information that people are willing to give you or try to figure it out for yourself by watching their games and running calcs.
That's still true but considering the metagame's shifting basically every week, I feel like hiding your spreads is less of an issue as it was in the past. In 2016, for example, if you made a good kyogre spread it could last you for the whole season, whereas in 2017 things like celesteela have good spreads that are constantly changing.
 

Theorymon

Let's a do the truffle shuffle!
is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Live Chat Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributoris a Battle Server Moderatoris a CAP Contributor Alumnus
Moderator
So to go a bit more into all the Tapu Fini I've been seeing, I started seeing Oranguru on teams that were less traditional "Trick Room teams" from high rated players. Most of them were paired with Tapu Fini, and seemed to only have Trick Room to stop opposing Trick Room. Anyone got more experience with this? From trying Oranguru on TR teams, I wasn't the biggest fan since its pretty easy to nuke with Z moves (I will admit that getting Drampa in with it rocked though, Hyper Voice is really strong lol), but I'm willing to give it another chance if there's better ways to use it!
 
Not sure if it fits, but I am wondering what Hidden Power Type is best for Tapu Koko and Tapu Lele (and maybe Tapu Fini) or if it is even worth running. I just played through the game a second time (this time on Sun) and I am not sure if it is worth resetting for HP Ice or Ground? on Koko and maybe Fire? on Lele. Is there even any HP worth using for Fini? I guess Grass for Gastrodon maybe. The same for the UBs, in particular Nihilego and Xurkitree. I thought of Ice and Ground for Xurkitree and Ice for Nihilego (not sure what else might be worth it).
 
Not sure if it fits, but I am wondering what Hidden Power Type is best for Tapu Koko and Tapu Lele (and maybe Tapu Fini) or if it is even worth running. I just played through the game a second time (this time on Sun) and I am not sure if it is worth resetting for HP Ice or Ground? on Koko and maybe Fire? on Lele. Is there even any HP worth using for Fini? I guess Grass for Gastrodon maybe. The same for the UBs, in particular Nihilego and Xurkitree. I thought of Ice and Ground for Xurkitree and Ice for Nihilego (not sure what else might be worth it).
In my experience Hidden powers on tapus are normally pretty team specific. Ice, ground, and maybe grass can be useful on koko if you really need them for certain threats. Xurkitree can really benefit from HP ice. HP ground or water(if you have rain and really hate marowak) are more niche options. Nihilego can definitely use HP ice to smack chomp, but iirc you need life orb to KO.
 
guys i need some tips, counter for torkoal oranguru? they destroy me. Even something for tapu koko chomp and maybe vanilluxe/nhilego scarf... i don't know i find some difficults against those
 
guys i need some tips, counter for torkoal oranguru? they destroy me. Even something for tapu koko chomp and maybe vanilluxe/nhilego scarf... i don't know i find some difficults against those
There's honestly quite a few. The first few that comes to mind are Araquanid and Gigalith. They highly appreciate the trick room, underspeeding Oranguru before he can get an Instruct off, Araquanid eats eruptions for days while Gigalith removes the sun making Eruption incredibly weak while simultaneously getting a sp.def boost. Tapu Fini takes Eruptions incredibly comfortably and 2HKOs Torkoal with Muddy Water in the Sun if its the specs set. Porygon 2 can live 2 Eruptions and reverse the trick room if necessary, allowing you to outspeed and KO the Torkoal the following turn, or KO the Oranguru expecting Torkoal to Protect. Rain setters comfortably switch in to Torkoal, though Pelipper doesn't appreciate having its sash broken. Wide Guard users prevent Torkoal from spamming Eruption/Heat wave, though sun boosted Flamethrowers still hurt. Finally you can stall out trick room turns through defensive switching and Protect.

With common cores like Koko+Chomp honestly you probably want to start your teambuilding with a lead that you feel comfortable bringing to that matchup, as well as other common cores like Fini + Kartana, Koko+Raichu, Marowak+Celesteela, P2+Araquanid etc.
 
guys i need some tips, counter for torkoal oranguru? they destroy me. Even something for tapu koko chomp and maybe vanilluxe/nhilego scarf... i don't know i find some difficults against those
Vest goodra +Tapu fini absolutely bodies torkoal oranguru. Goodra can also handle koko fairly easily, and misty terrain let's goodra tank a dragon claw from chomp with ease. As for vanilluxe/nihilego Metagross with bullet punch is a good pick, as is kartana and scizor.
 
I was thinking about trying out Magnezone on a Tailwind team (likely use a specs/AV set), what would be the best Hidden Power to use? What ability should I use?
I am not sure on Hidden Power type, but Magnet Pull would probably be the best ability because of its ability to trap Celesteela, allowing for Magnezone to KO it with Thunderbolt. However I am not sure how well Magnezone would do on a Tailwind team, because I haven't tried it, I can only speak for the Pokémon itself.
 
I was thinking about trying out Magnezone on a Tailwind team (likely use a specs/AV set), what would be the best Hidden Power to use? What ability should I use?
Interestingly a neutral max speed Magnezone outspeeds max speed +speed Pheromosa by 1 point, and therefore the entire unboosted metagame in tailwind. You obviously miss out on some bulk and you may want to scale back that speed, perhaps to 164 EVs to outspeed Timid Koko's and Scarf Politoed, or less (I haven't ran any defensive calcs so I can't say how much HP is a good amount). HP Ground is by far the most popular Hidden Power option, though Fire and Ice are options as well. Magnet Pull is by far the best ability on Magnezone, and rather important if you go with HP Ground for trapping in opposing Magnezone.