VGC 17 Discussion Thread

So after bank the rules are being changed to permit some bank exclusive content, like HAs for pokemon that can't be chained for (this mostly helps Aerodactyl), egg moves with inaccessible chains, ect. They might also permit non-Alolan forms of Aloladex mons that have full Alolan lines. All of these are either garbage or straight up inferior to their Alolan forms except for Ninetales-K and Dugtrio-K. Ninetales-K doesn't do much in this meta imo but Dugtrio would be quite significant.

Another piece to speculate on is GF has hinted that players who own a paid subscription to bank when the update comes will get a special gift. The main guesses for what this will be are a Mew with Mewnium-Z, HA starters or HA Tapus. I think Telepathy Tapus would see more use than most people would assume, it would allow you to safely disquake with Garchomp/Koko, allow you to run EQ alongside Bulu, and allow Fini to do some status abuse sets.
 
What are some things that can one shot alola muk? Or at least beat it without using z moves. I've had a little trouble with it lately.

Also, what are some good partners for psychic z Tapu Lele?
 
What are some things that can one shot alola muk? Or at least beat it without using z moves. I've had a little trouble with it lately.

Also, what are some good partners for psychic z Tapu Lele?
I don't know if there is anything that can OHKO Muk-Alola without Z Moves, if someone knows of one, I too would be interested. However, I have found that Garchomp is a good Pokémon to use against it.
 
What are some things that can one shot alola muk? Or at least beat it without using z moves. I've had a little trouble with it lately.

Also, what are some good partners for psychic z Tapu Lele?
There isn't much it seems. In terms of 1-shot non Z-moves go, this is all I found.

196+ Atk Mudsdale High Horsepower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Muk-Alola: 212-252 (100 - 118.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Worth noting:

252+ Atk Mystic Water Water Bubble Araquanid Liquidation vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Muk-Alola: 162-192 (76.4 - 90.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Gluttony Figy Berry recovery <-- Something worth considering. Z-move does pick up the OHKO

252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Muk-Alola: 162-192 (76.4 - 90.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Gluttony Figy Berry recovery <-- 1HKO in a 1v1 scenario, Z move does pick up the OHKO

If you have your own Alolan Muk, running Imprison on your own Muk is a good way to shut down other Muk.

One thing you can try to look for are things that deal just under 50% to Alolan Muk so that it doesn't trigger the Berry. By doing this something else that can deal just over half HP to Muk can then knock it out.
 
There isn't much it seems. In terms of 1-shot non Z-moves go, this is all I found.

196+ Atk Mudsdale High Horsepower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Muk-Alola: 212-252 (100 - 118.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Worth noting:

252+ Atk Mystic Water Water Bubble Araquanid Liquidation vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Muk-Alola: 162-192 (76.4 - 90.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Gluttony Figy Berry recovery <-- Something worth considering. Z-move does pick up the OHKO

252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Muk-Alola: 162-192 (76.4 - 90.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Gluttony Figy Berry recovery <-- 1HKO in a 1v1 scenario, Z move does pick up the OHKO

If you have your own Alolan Muk, running Imprison on your own Muk is a good way to shut down other Muk.

One thing you can try to look for are things that deal just under 50% to Alolan Muk so that it doesn't trigger the Berry. By doing this something else that can deal just over half HP to Muk can then knock it out.
Not sure if I am right, but doesn't Muk usually run at least some Defense? If not, then Mudsdale is a sure bet!

Edit: Yeah, the PokeAlex set that I use and many others use runs 44 Defense, but there are other sets, so, yeah.
 
There isn't much it seems. In terms of 1-shot non Z-moves go, this is all I found.

196+ Atk Mudsdale High Horsepower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Muk-Alola: 212-252 (100 - 118.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Worth noting:

252+ Atk Mystic Water Water Bubble Araquanid Liquidation vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Muk-Alola: 162-192 (76.4 - 90.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Gluttony Figy Berry recovery <-- Something worth considering. Z-move does pick up the OHKO

252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Muk-Alola: 162-192 (76.4 - 90.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Gluttony Figy Berry recovery <-- 1HKO in a 1v1 scenario, Z move does pick up the OHKO

If you have your own Alolan Muk, running Imprison on your own Muk is a good way to shut down other Muk.

One thing you can try to look for are things that deal just under 50% to Alolan Muk so that it doesn't trigger the Berry. By doing this something else that can deal just over half HP to Muk can then knock it out.
I can't believe I never thought of the Muk mirror for Imprison, I just assumed Paul Chua used it to prevent Protects. I knew Imprison could be a cool option on Muk, pretty sure I remember talking to somebody about it just after London. Glad somebody actually had some success with it :D

Something also worth noting is that Snorlax after a Curse has a good chance of OHKOing with High Horsepower. Not the most common threat but it's definitely picking up in popularity and I expect a big spike in usage after Markus won Leipzig regionals with it and Louis' great run using it at Athens.

+1 252+ Atk Snorlax High Horsepower vs. 188 HP / 44 Def Muk-Alola: 190-224 (93.1 - 109.8%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

Guts boosted CC from Hariyama can also KO

252+ Atk Guts Hariyama Close Combat vs. 188 HP / 44 Def Muk-Alola: 189-223 (92.6 - 109.3%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

And then of course many neutral Z moves, like rain boosted Z-Hydro Pump from modest duck, Z-Close Combat from Brave Hariyama, Z-Flare Blitz from Adamant Arcanine (not guaranteed), Adamant Z-Earthquake from Sandslash 75% of the time (far less relevant but groundium Z does let Sandslash beat a lot of its checks and is overall a really solid option on it).
 
Last edited:
I don't know if there is anything that can OHKO Muk-Alola without Z Moves, if someone knows of one, I too would be interested. However, I have found that Garchomp is a good Pokémon to use against it.
Something to note is Pheromosa with life orb High Jump Kick

Life Orb 252+ Atk Pheromosa High Jump Kick vs 188HP / 44 Def Muk-Alola: 196-231 (96 - 113.2%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
 
On the Muk discussion, I was using Groundium Z Metagross on the 3DS ladder to some success last month. Most people are fine with keeping Alolan Muk in against Metagross so they end up getting crushed by it!
I love that idea! I might have to try it out, I know that someone had success at the Athens Regional with Groundium Z Gyarados, but Metagross is a awesome idea!
 
Mudsdale OP. He can run through whole teams if given the right support, idk why its so low in usage. Paired with Arcanine you have something that can switch in to Will-O-Wisps and take care of Kartana.
 
Mudsdale OP. He can run through whole teams if given the right support, idk why its so low in usage. Paired with Arcanine you have something that can switch in to Will-O-Wisps and take care of Kartana.
I'll blame its lack of usage on Garchomp. Garchomp is able to function at a high level without a lot of the support that Mudsdale needs (most specifically Trick Room) to work at an equally high level. Doesn't mean Garchomp is completely better than Mudsdale in every aspect - there are absolutely reasons why you'd want to run Mudsdale over Garchomp such as needing the extra bulk or if you need it to be a Ground type that functions under Trick Room for your team.
 

Halcyon.

@Choice Specs
is a Community Contributoris a Contributor Alumnus
Mudsdale's low usage most likely has to do with it losing to Tapu Fini/Kartana/Arcanine cores as well as the spike in Ninetales which are on lots of teams that are making top cut. It works really well as a check to Tapu Koko and Garchomp but it loses to some of the most common mons in the meta, which doesn't make it seem like the best pick at the moment. It can definitely be effective and threatening to teams that aren't prepared for it, but it has to be supported more so than other Pokemon.
 
Bank just dropped and the new rules in season 2 will permit previously banned egg moves and HAs for giftmons, the most relevant stuff I can think of is

Aerodactyl - Unnerve
Porygon2 - Analytic (probably worse in most cases but still viable)
Hariyama - Helping Hand (kind of dodgy but could see use since Hariyama isn't generally desperate for move slots)
Liligant - Healing Wish
Gigalith - Curse
Muk A - Assurance (Muk now has a lot of fun things for that fourth slot)
Araquanid - Power Split (doesn't need its 4th moveslot most of the time anyways, pretty situational but could be good)
Salazzle - Fake Out (probably the biggest net viability shift)
Clefairy - Heal Pulse (Eevee strat got a buff)
 
It's also worth mentioning that you can't use non-alolan formes either. If you try to use something like a regular fire-type ninetales, battle spot will just say that that pokemon can't be used, even if it was actually bred in alola with the everstone trick.
 
I wonder what else may find itself suddenly in vogue. Mandibuzz and Pelipper (along with a few other things) now get access to Knock Off. Assuming it is still one of the more used Pokemon, will a slightly wider distribution change how much Pory2 is used?
 

Halcyon.

@Choice Specs
is a Community Contributoris a Contributor Alumnus
Analytic Porygon2 might be useful on those teams that have a Porygon2 on it, but use it more as a way to reverse TR than actually use it themselves. Otherwise it's probably inferior to Download but who knows?
 
Ok so I'm not a vgc player but I was wondering if anyone could help me build on an idea I had. I'm thinking a oranguru and rhyperior trick room team, since it can use a 140 attack stab eq (that can be instructed) and not hurt it's ally as well as lightning rod to completely wall koko and keep other team members safer. Other possible team members I'm thinking about is wishiwashi (surf and protected by lightning rod) and mandibuzz (resists grass which is super effective on both offensive team members and has tons of tec options) to tank up any hits.
 
Last edited:
Ok so I'm not a vgc player but I was wondering if anyone could help me build on an idea I had. I'm thinking a oranguru and rhyperior trick room team, since it can use a 140 attack stab eq (that can be instructed) and not hurt it's ally as well as lightning rod to completely wall koko and keep other team members safer. Other possible team members I'm thinking about is wishiwashi (surf and protected by lightning rod) and mandibuzz (resists grass which is super effective on both offensive team members and has tons of tec options) to tank up any hits.
Rhyperior isn't legal in VGC17.
 
Idk if this may be better in the Q&A topic but i think that we can have a discussion about this.

I've been using milotic recently and the set I used the most was the adrenaline orb one with enough evs in speed to outspeed kartana when gets the intimidate boost. The thing is that this set maybe is very situational and not solid at all, but i had some success with it in showdown tournaments and in premiers. So, what do you think about the offensive adrenaline orb set? would you categorize it as "gimmicky"?

What's the set that do you think is the most viable and solid atm in the meta? rindo berry, maranga berry, sitrus berry, leftovers...? I think this is interesting to discuss due to the pressure that milotic puts up in the team selection if your opp has an arcanine (a mon that is the 98% of the time in solid teams lol), but if your opp doesn't give nine to the match the adrenaline orb is a waste.
 
Idk if this may be better in the Q&A topic but i think that we can have a discussion about this.

I've been using milotic recently and the set I used the most was the adrenaline orb one with enough evs in speed to outspeed kartana when gets the intimidate boost. The thing is that this set maybe is very situational and not solid at all, but i had some success with it in showdown tournaments and in premiers. So, what do you think about the offensive adrenaline orb set? would you categorize it as "gimmicky"?

What's the set that do you think is the most viable and solid atm in the meta? rindo berry, maranga berry, sitrus berry, leftovers...? I think this is interesting to discuss due to the pressure that milotic puts up in the team selection if your opp has an arcanine (a mon that is the 98% of the time in solid teams lol), but if your opp doesn't give nine to the match the adrenaline orb is a waste.
So, I use Adrenaline Orb, but rarely bring Milotic as I run Torkoal, I more use it as intimidate repellent in Team Preview, but when I bring it, I find Adrenaline Orb is helpful, and it works good on my offensive team, in my opinion, it depends on the team, almost anything can be considered a gimmick, but if it's good, my opinion is just use it
 

Cresselia~~

Junichi Masuda likes this!!
Idk if this may be better in the Q&A topic but i think that we can have a discussion about this.

I've been using milotic recently and the set I used the most was the adrenaline orb one with enough evs in speed to outspeed kartana when gets the intimidate boost. The thing is that this set maybe is very situational and not solid at all, but i had some success with it in showdown tournaments and in premiers. So, what do you think about the offensive adrenaline orb set? would you categorize it as "gimmicky"?

What's the set that do you think is the most viable and solid atm in the meta? rindo berry, maranga berry, sitrus berry, leftovers...? I think this is interesting to discuss due to the pressure that milotic puts up in the team selection if your opp has an arcanine (a mon that is the 98% of the time in solid teams lol), but if your opp doesn't give nine to the match the adrenaline orb is a waste.
I think it may do ok recently due to the amount of Arcanines and Gyarados being used.
But that said, adrenaline Milotic is kind of a niche Pokemon and depends greatly on the amount of Arcanine.
If Arcanine declines, you'll have to give up Milotic.
 

TPO3

Never practice; Always perform.
Not sure if SQSA is better for this question, but I"ll ask it here: How do you guys justify using mons completely for support on your teams? As somebody who's just picking VGC up, when I'm teambuilding, most of the time my thought process is something like "Wow I'm weak to Kartana... maybe I should add Arcanine so I can KO it and weaken its damage output." So most of my teams end up looking somewhat similar and running 6 mons who don't support much and just KO other mons, kind of like you'd build a team in singles. Running a pokemon like Persian or Togedemaru who's entire existence is based on using support moves never really crosses my mind, and I never really understand the thought process behind adding one of them to your team. How do you know if one of them is the "right" pokemon to add?
 

Acast

Classy af
is a Forum Moderator
Moderator
Not sure if SQSA is better for this question, but I"ll ask it here: How do you guys justify using mons completely for support on your teams? As somebody who's just picking VGC up, when I'm teambuilding, most of the time my thought process is something like "Wow I'm weak to Kartana... maybe I should add Arcanine so I can KO it and weaken its damage output." So most of my teams end up looking somewhat similar and running 6 mons who don't support much and just KO other mons, kind of like you'd build a team in singles. Running a pokemon like Persian or Togedemaru who's entire existence is based on using support moves never really crosses my mind, and I never really understand the thought process behind adding one of them to your team. How do you know if one of them is the "right" pokemon to add?
I'm a fellow VGC noob so I might go about teambuilding differently from the more experienced players, but my thought process usually goes something like "I have these offensive mons on my team. What would these mons need to do their jobs more effectively?" Depending on the answer, I would add the appropriate support mon. If the answer is more bulk, I add Aurora Veil Ninetales to the team. If the answer is a way to deal with the really fast threats like Koko or Scarf Chomp, I'd add a Tailwind or Trick Room setter.

In the case of Togedemaru, I can imagine it being a valuable partner to DD Gyarados because Lightning Rod draws Electric attacks away and Fake Out can prevent a particularly big threat from doing anything while Gyarados sets up.