VGC 17 Discussion Thread

Not sure if SQSA is better for this question, but I"ll ask it here: How do you guys justify using mons completely for support on your teams? As somebody who's just picking VGC up, when I'm teambuilding, most of the time my thought process is something like "Wow I'm weak to Kartana... maybe I should add Arcanine so I can KO it and weaken its damage output." So most of my teams end up looking somewhat similar and running 6 mons who don't support much and just KO other mons, kind of like you'd build a team in singles. Running a pokemon like Persian or Togedemaru who's entire existence is based on using support moves never really crosses my mind, and I never really understand the thought process behind adding one of them to your team. How do you know if one of them is the "right" pokemon to add?
The main purpose of support mons is to make your heavy hitters even better. This can range from buying free turns through fake out, to using speed control to make the other team go after you, to drawing away attacks the rest of your team is weak to.

Some examples:
Togedemaru buys a free turn for its partner with fake out. It can slow down the opponent with nuzzle, and then can use zing zip's 30% flinch rate to try and paraflinch things. It also makes the opponent afraid to even use electric-type attacks that aren't discharge while it's on the field.

Alolan persian is fast and uses fake out like togedemaru does. It can get off fast snarls to make special attackers less threatening, buying you both momentum (your opponent will want to switch them out later) and making your teammates survive more attacks. Then it's got a bunch of other support moves to make it harder for your opponent to try and gain control of the battle, like feint, quash, taunt, etc. Then it can use foul play to still deal damage to things so it can't just be ignored.
 
I thought I should tell everyone about a interesting Pokémon I have been using lately, Machamp, as odd as that sounds, he works fairly good, beats Kartana, Snorlax, and Porygon2 with Dynamic Punch, Garchomp with Ice Punch and adds Wide Guard. I find it has a niche in that it can KO plenty of things that are popular, do good bits of damage to neutral threats, and fills a support roll with Wide Guard. Anyway, my point is that many things are finding similar rolls to fill, and I think the meta will be changing fairly soon, only time will tell.

Anyway, what other odd things are people running? How are people finding ways to beat popular cores like AFK?

PS: Shoutout to RJCarrot (Where are you on Smogon?!) for making me try out Machamp.
 
I thought I should tell everyone about a interesting Pokémon I have been using lately, Machamp, as odd as that sounds, he works fairly good, beats Kartana, Snorlax, and Porygon2 with Dynamic Punch, Garchomp with Ice Punch and adds Wide Guard. I find it has a niche in that it can KO plenty of things that are popular, do good bits of damage to neutral threats, and fills a support roll with Wide Guard. Anyway, my point is that many things are finding similar rolls to fill, and I think the meta will be changing fairly soon, only time will tell.

Anyway, what other odd things are people running? How are people finding ways to beat popular cores like AFK?

PS: Shoutout to RJCarrot (Where are you on Smogon?!) for making me try out Machamp.
Hey, yeah I was running machamp for awhile too. Was using fightinium Z to secure OHKO's on p2, heavy slam for fairy mons with wide guard and protect. Wide guard was kind of meh, did come in handy a few times though against choiced tapus spamming double target moves haha. But most of the time they did not risk spread moves against champ. Definitely a fun mon to use and helped with certain matchups.

Also been testing Specs Starmie along side pelipper. After a tailwind the two can put out alot of damage and against unprepared teams can sweep quite nicely. Frail defense is definitely an issue though so run bulu as a switch in option. Anyone else tried Starmie?.
 

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Usage stats for January are out. As expected, we see Snorlax rising, Arcanine and Garchomp rising slightly. AFK cores in general are obviously very common on PS, and Marowak dropped significantly, probably due to competing with Arcanine, losing to Chomp, and electrics being able to play around it with Discharge or secondary STAB.

Anyway, figured I would post this here in the hope of starting some discussion.
 
Personally I choose Marowak over Arcanine because Thick Club and the various movepool that it has. Shadow Bone/Flare Blitz/Bonemerang/Will-O-Wisp has done outstandingly well for me in getting rid of Kartanas, Celesteelas, and Tapu Leles in several of my games.

I'm kinda surprised that Kartana isn't getting much of the spotlight. This mon is so damn effective when it comes to getting rid of any threat slower than it. The fact that it can learn Sacred Sword makes its kill list longer, adding mons like Porygon2, Smeargle, and Weavile.

Adding to this, Assault Vest Garchomp has dealt with a lot of special attackers like Tapu Koko and taken them down pretty easily. However, I don't see it getting any higher than where it is now because of the checks it has around it. It's still a good mon, though.

And to all you SubSeed Cele fans, no, I don't see it getting in S. While I do play it, and I do think that it's good, it's in the same situation as Arcanine. Tanky, but hard to utilize without a proper moveset. And even with a proper moveset, I think it's really situational.
 

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Has anybody been testing Flyinium Z on Gyarados with the Bounce event being released? I've tried testing it on showdown for a while. I've found it to be not as great as I was hoping. The Z-move is has been ok, but mostly I've been frustrated being stuck with just Bounce instead of Ice Fang or Earthquake. Has anybody else had similar/differing results in their games on showdown?
 
Has anybody been testing Flyinium Z on Gyarados with the Bounce event being released? I've tried testing it on showdown for a while. I've found it to be not as great as I was hoping. The Z-move is has been ok, but mostly I've been frustrated being stuck with just Bounce instead of Ice Fang or Earthquake. Has anybody else had similar/differing results in their games on showdown?
I have not personally, however I have a friend who has, he says it is OK, but not great, it helps with AFK, but is otherwise not great.
 
I have not personally, however I have a friend who has, he says it is OK, but not great, it helps with AFK, but is otherwise not great.
I've experienced similar results with it. It's enjoyable to smack things like fini and araquanid. However, it seems to be best in a Bo1 scenario. Once you've revealed sky strike, bounce is a pretty sub par move. It does have a place of your team really needs something weak to flying removed.
 
So I was interested to hear if anyone used any mons in the international challenge last weekend that worked better than expected or flopped horribly. I used the smogon suggested milotic with an assault vest and I thought it performed surprisingly well. It was a great team mate for tapu bulu and nine tails, both of whom really appreciate the hard arcanine counter, and it was able to survive specs timid tapu koko thunderbolt and retaliate with a mirror coat for the KO. Also, HP grass was a great choice for gastrodon and tapu fini, which otherwise laugh at opposing milotics. I thought that it was a viable option worth noting for a Pokémon that otherwise struggles in VGC.
 
Question about Trick Room and speed IVs... if i am using trick room, is it beneficial to have an IV of 0 on my Gigalith and Snorlax? They won't out speed much without trick room anyway so should i shoot for zero speed IVs while breeding to try to ensure they go first in TR? Playing around with TR teams because i was getting destroyed due to my lack speed control. Before now, I was just breeding for the standard 5 IVs in all stats except the offensive stat that won't be used.
 
Question about Trick Room and speed IVs... if i am using trick room, is it beneficial to have an IV of 0 on my Gigalith and Snorlax? They won't out speed much without trick room anyway so should i shoot for zero speed IVs while breeding to try to ensure they go first in TR? Playing around with TR teams because i was getting destroyed due to my lack speed control. Before now, I was just breeding for the standard 5 IVs in all stats except the offensive stat that won't be used.
Yes it is absolutely worth it. Most players run Brave nature and 0 IV Snorlax and Gigalith.
 
We'll definitely see more Sky Drop+Trick Room now. Getting to the finals shows that it can be a legitimate strategy.
What are the most prominent users? Braviary?

What team do you mean? Javier Valdes from Buenos Aires? I assume Trick room was set by Lele? Is there any video that shows the team in action?
 

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What are the most prominent users? Braviary?

What team do you mean? Javier Valdes from Buenos Aires? I assume Trick room was set by Lele? Is there any video that shows the team in action?
I didn't watch the regionals over the weekend so idk what they used there, but Aerodactyl and Tapu Koko are both great Sky Drop users. Their speed helps a lot in disrupting the opponent's plays.
 
What are the most prominent users? Braviary?

What team do you mean? Javier Valdes from Buenos Aires? I assume Trick room was set by Lele? Is there any video that shows the team in action?
I forget who actually used it, but it was Sky Drop Tapu Koko and Trick Room Mimikyu. Tapu Koko is one of the fastest Pokemon, so it's pretty much guarenteed to pick up whatever Taunt user they have. Then, Mimikyu can't be OHKO'd because of Disguise. Due to Koko's speed, it goes last in Trick Room and drops the Pokemon at the end of the turn, so it's effectively out of the game for 2 turns.
 

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I forget who actually used it, but it was Sky Drop Tapu Koko and Trick Room Mimikyu. Tapu Koko is one of the fastest Pokemon, so it's pretty much guarenteed to pick up whatever Taunt user they have. Then, Mimikyu can't be OHKO'd because of Disguise. Due to Koko's speed, it goes last in Trick Room and drops the Pokemon at the end of the turn, so it's effectively out of the game for 2 turns.
What do you do with those turns though? The turn after TR, all you have on the field is a Mimikyu. Are you really able to take advantage of a temporary removal?
 
What do you do with those turns though? The turn after TR, all you have on the field is a Mimikyu. Are you really able to take advantage of a temporary removal?
Well you can switch in your now super fast mons basically for free, since only one Pokemon can attack. If Koko manages to survive, you can have a slow Volt Switch as well. The combo was used by Conan Thompson in the Portland regional. It seems like he only used it against teams without their own Trick Room mode. I believe the two sets in question were bulky Will-O-Wisp Mimikyu and Assault Vest Koko.
 
Well you won so I'd say you handled it pretty well. But here's a couple things:
1. Don't use Discharge with Trick Room, at least on Porygon2. The Paralysis will actually make your opponent faster in TR and you won't be doing a whole lot of damage. Stick with Thunderbolt to take out Water-types for Araquanid.
2. Your opponent misplayed a bit. Burning Kartana would have been the better move to let Lele survive and Taunt Porygon2. They also forgot about Psychic Terrain when they went to ESpeed Araquanid.

Overall, it looks like a great team to use against Drifblim+Lele. Trick Room is its best counter and Tapu Koko works well because it can Volt Switch for free on Drifblim turn 1 and reset the terrain later.
 
This section seems really inactive..... Not that I've helped, because after all these years I've only just discovered this part of the forum exists :P Sorry guys haha

I had some decent success in the April International Challenge with a pretty neat leading duo that took people completely by surprise:

"Purrkitree"

Xurkitree @ Electrium Z
Beast Boost
Timid
4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Tail Glow / Thunderbolt / Energy Ball / Protect

Alolan Persian @ Focus Sash
Technician
Timid
4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Fake Out / Psych Up / Snarl / Thunderbolt

You Fake Out with A-Persian (on the opposing Taunt user or whatever would threaten Xurkitree most), and Tail Glow with Xurkitree (which will always survive due to decent bulk and one weakness and Persian's fake out support). Now your opponent has to deal with Xurkitree before it annihilates something, so it gets all the focus (plus everyone thinks you're running a defensive Fur Coat Persian that's no threat). Turn 2 you Psych Up with Persian and copy Xurkitree's Tail Glow boost. You have Focus Sash as a back up. Xurkitree uses Thunderbolt on something that bothers you, OR it can use Protect which still allows Psych Up to work. Turn 3 Persian outspeeds and WRECKS everything with STAB Technician +3 Snarl (which weakens anything it doesn't kill), and you still have a +3 Xurkitree at your disposal as well.
4th move on Persian is just coverage (I went with Thunderbolt because it surprises Toxapex, Celesteela etc, but Hidden Power Bug/Ice/Fire works too). By the time your opponent has scrambled to beat TWO Tail Glow boosted threats, the rest of your team can just mop up whatever's left. Nobody suspects offensive A-Persian!
 
This section seems really inactive..... Not that I've helped, because after all these years I've only just discovered this part of the forum exists :P Sorry guys haha

I had some decent success in the April International Challenge with a pretty neat leading duo that took people completely by surprise:

"Purrkitree"

Xurkitree @ Electrium Z
Beast Boost
Timid
4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Tail Glow / Thunderbolt / Energy Ball / Protect

Alolan Persian @ Focus Sash
Technician
Timid
4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Fake Out / Psych Up / Snarl / Thunderbolt

You Fake Out with A-Persian (on the opposing Taunt user or whatever would threaten Xurkitree most), and Tail Glow with Xurkitree (which will always survive due to decent bulk and one weakness and Persian's fake out support). Now your opponent has to deal with Xurkitree before it annihilates something, so it gets all the focus (plus everyone thinks you're running a defensive Fur Coat Persian that's no threat). Turn 2 you Psych Up with Persian and copy Xurkitree's Tail Glow boost. You have Focus Sash as a back up. Xurkitree uses Thunderbolt on something that bothers you, OR it can use Protect which still allows Psych Up to work. Turn 3 Persian outspeeds and WRECKS everything with STAB Technician +3 Snarl (which weakens anything it doesn't kill), and you still have a +3 Xurkitree at your disposal as well.
4th move on Persian is just coverage (I went with Thunderbolt because it surprises Toxapex, Celesteela etc, but Hidden Power Bug/Ice/Fire works too). By the time your opponent has scrambled to beat TWO Tail Glow boosted threats, the rest of your team can just mop up whatever's left. Nobody suspects offensive A-Persian!
I really like the idea, but I'm having a hard time imagining this strat do well in a best of 3. What else was on this team? Kartana or Celesteela give you an answer to the omnipresent tapu lele, a tailwind mode would do work, and an answer to hard trick room is a must. I see the possibilities, and am interested where you went from there.
 
I really like the idea, but I'm having a hard time imagining this strat do well in a best of 3. What else was on this team? Kartana or Celesteela give you an answer to the omnipresent tapu lele, a tailwind mode would do work, and an answer to hard trick room is a must. I see the possibilities, and am interested where you went from there.
I never really pursued it long enough to come up with the ideal team. If you suspect Trick Room I wouldn't lead with Purkitree I would instead send out my Taunt user first. Tapu Lele would be great, as it can protect Purkitree from priority moves down the track. You need an Earthquake resist/switch in like a Flying Type or Tapu Bulu or a Levitate mon, as Xurkitree attracts ground moves.
I agree that Kartana can work well in the team. Snarl evens helps buff Kartana's special defence weakness. A Magic Bounce user like Espeon could also be nice in the team. And maybe a Follow Me/Rage Powder user to deflect attacks (including the rare Clear Smog) away from the sweepers (Persian, Xurkitree). Tapu Fini could provide protection against status. And lastly you want something that hits Dark, Electric and Fairy types hard because they resist most of your attacks. Mega Mawile for example.