1. Welcome to Smogon! Check out the Smogon Starters Hangout for everything you need to know about starting out in the community. Don't forget to introduce yourself in the Introduction and Hangout Thread, too!
  2. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.

VGC 2011 Speed Tiers - Article

Discussion in 'Past VGC Analyses' started by Sixonesix, Jan 23, 2011.

  1. Sixonesix

    Sixonesix
    is a Past SPL Winner

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2007
    Messages:
    2,604
    Magic Speed Numbers

    Speed Stat | Boost | After Boost | Outspeeds

    90 | +2 | 180 | +Speed base 111s
    121 | +2 | 242 | +1 Neutral base 108s
    123 | +1 | 186 | +Speed base 116s
    141 | +2 | 282 | +2 Neutral base 88s
    146 | +1 | 219 | +1 +Speed base 80s


    Speed Stat | Pokemon | Base Speed | Nature | Boost | EVs

    Tier 0 (Base 145 and Greater)
    368 | Whimsicott | 116 | +Speed | +2 | 252
    358 | Tornadus | 111 | +Speed | +2 | 252
    346 | Liepard | 106 | +Speed | +2 | 252
    294 | Sawsbuck | 95 | Neutral | +2 | 252
    288 | Leavanny | 92 | Neutral | +2 | 252
    284 | Lilligant | 90 | Neutral | +2 | 252
    280 | Excadrill | 88 | Neutral | +2 | 252
    264 | Chandelure, Stoutland | 80 | Neutral | +2 | 252
    252 | Seismitoad | 74 | Neutral | +2 | 252
    252 | Zebstrika | 116 | Neutral | +1 | 252
    250 | Volcarona | 100 | +Speed | +1 | 252
    244 | Thundurus | 111 | Neutral | +1 | 252
    240 | Terrakion | 108 | Neutral | +1 | 252
    229 | Landorus | 101 | Neutral | +1 | 252
    225 | Hydreigon | 98 | Neutral | +1 | 252
    224 | Jellicent, Maractus | 60 | Neutral | +2 | 252
    223 | Haxorus | 97 | Neutral | +1 | 252
    220 | Darmanitan | 95 | Neutral | +1 | 252
    220 | Scrafty | 58 | Neutral | +2 | 252
    217 | Chandelure | 80 | +Speed | +1 | 252
    216 | Krookodile | 92 | Neutral | +1 | 252
    216 | Vanilluxe | 79 | +Speed | +1 | 252
    216 | Accelgor | 145 | +Speed | +0 | 252

    Tier 1 (Base 112 to Base 116)
    198 | Chandelure | 80 | Neutral | +1 | 252
    184 | Whimsicott, Zebstrika | 116 | +Speed | +0 | 252
    184 | Carracosta | 32 | +Speed | +2 | 252
    184 | Jellicent | 60 | +Speed | +1 | 252
    183 | Cinccino | 115 | +Speed | +0 | 252
    182 | Swoobat | 114 | +Speed | +0 | 252
    181 | Serperior | 113 | +Speed | +0 | 252
    180 | Scolipede | 112 | +Speed | +0 | 252

    Tier 2 (Base 85 to Base 111)
    179 | Tornadus, Thundurus | 111 | +Speed | +0 | 252
    178 | Archeops | 110 | +Speed | +0 | 252
    177 | Durant | 109 | +Speed | +0 | 252
    176 | Terrakion, Virizion, Cobalion, Galvantula | 108 | +Speed | +0 | 252
    173 | Liepard | 106 | +Speed | +0 | 252
    172 | Mienshao, Zoroark, Cryogonal | 105 | +Speed | +0 | 252
    170 | Emolga | 103 | +Speed | +0 | 252
    168 | Landorus, Simipour, Simisear, Simisage | 101 | +Speed | +0 | 252
    167 | Volcarona | 100 | +Speed | +0 | 252
    165 | Hydreigon, Swanna, Basculin | 98 | +Speed | +0 | 252
    163 | Haxorus, Sigilyph | 97 | +Speed | +0 | 252
    161 | Darmanitan, Sawsbuck | 95 | +Speed | +0 | 252
    159 | Unfezant | 93 | +Speed | +0 | 252
    158 | Krookodile, Leavanny | 92 | +Speed | +0 | 252
    156 | Lilligant, Klinklang | 90 | +Speed | +0 | 252
    154 | Excadrill | 88 | +Speed | +0 | 252
    153 | Landorus, Simipour, Simisear, Simisage | 101 | Neutral | +0 | 252
    150 | Hydreigon, Swanna, Basculin | 98 | Neutral | +0 | 252
    150 | Sawk | 85 | +Speed | +0 | 252
    149 | Haxorus, Sigilyph | 97 | Neutral | +0 | 252
    146 | +1 hits 219 speed | N/A | N/A | None | N/A
    145 | Chandelure, Braviary, Stoutland, Mandibuzz | 80 | +Speed | +0 | 252
    144 | Krookodile, Leavanny | 92 | Neutral | +0 | 252
    141 | +2 hits 282 speed | N/A | N/A | None | N/A
    140 | Excadrill | 88 | Neutral | +0 | 252
    137 | Sawk | 85 | Neutral | +0 | 252

    Tier 3 (Base 65 to Base 80)
    132 | Chandelure, Braviary, Stoutland, Mandibuzz | 80 | Neutral | +0 | 252
    123 | +1 hits 186 speed | N/A | N/A | None | N/A
    122 | Bisharp | 70 | Neutral | +0 | 252
    121 | +2 hits 242 speed | N/A | N/A | None | N/A
    100 | Chandelure, Braviary, Stoutland, Mandibuzz | 80 | Neutral | +0 | 0
    95 | Garbodor | 75 | Neutral | +0 | 0
    92 | Carracosta | 32 | +Speed | +0 | 252
    90 | +2 hits 180 speed | N/A | N/A | None | N/A
    90 | Amoonguss | 30 | +Speed | +0 | 252
    90 | Samurott, Bisharp | 70 | Neutral | +0 | 0
    85 | Emboar, Alomomola, Gothitelle, Heatmor | 65 | Neutral | +0 | 0

    Tier 4 (Base 60 and below)
    80 | Jellicent, Maractus | 60 | Neutral | +0 | 0
    78 | Scrafty | 58 | Neutral | +0 | 0
    76 | Chandelure | 80 | -Speed; 0 IV | +0 | 0
    75 | Golurk, Bouffalant | 55 | Neutral | +0 | 0
    72 | Garbodor | 75 | -Speed; 0 IV | +0 | 0
    70 | Eelektross, Audino , Beartic | 50 | Neutral | +0 | 0
    68 | Druddigon | 48 | Neutral | +0 | 0
    67 | Samurott, Bisharp | 70 | -Speed; 0 IV | +0 | 0
    63 | Eelektross | 50 | -Speed; 31 IV | +0 | 0
    63 | Emboar, Alomomola, Gothitelle, Heatmor | 65 | -Speed; 0 IV | +0 | 0
    58 | Jellicent, Maractus | 60 | -Speed; 0 IV | +0 | 0
    56 | Scrafty | 58 | -Speed; 0 IV | +0 | 0
    54 | Golurk, Bouffalant | 55 | -Speed; 0 IV | +0 | 0
    50 | Amoonguss, Reuniclus | 30 | Neutral | +0 | 0
    49 | Eelektross, Audino, Beartic | 50 | -Speed; 0 IV | +0 | 0
    47 | Druddigon | 48 | -Speed; 0 IV | +0 | 0
    45 | Conkeldurr, Throh, Crustle | 45 | -Speed; 0 IV | +0 | 0
    40 | Beheeyem | 40 | -Speed; 0 IV | +0 | 0
    36 | Golurk | 55 | -Speed; 0 IV | -1 | 0
    33 | Carracosta, Stunfisk | 32 | -Speed; 0 IV | +0 | 0
    31 | Reuniclus, Amoonguss, Cofagrigus | 30 | -Speed; 0 IV | +0 | 0
    30 | Musharna | 29 | -Speed; 0 IV | +0 | 0
    30 | Conkeldurr | 45 | -Speed; 0 IV | -1 | 0
    27 | Gigalith | 25 | -Speed; 0 IV | +0 | 0
    22 | Escavalier, Ferrothorn | 20 | -Speed; 0 IV | +0 | 0
  2. HolyChipmunk

    HolyChipmunk California's finest chodesmuggler

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2010
    Messages:
    339
    Does Chlorophyll and Swift Swim count as Tier 0?
  3. Sixonesix

    Sixonesix
    is a Past SPL Winner

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2007
    Messages:
    2,604
    Chlorophyll, Swift Swim, base 79s+ with Choice Scarf, and certain Pokemon under Tailwind.
  4. Sixonesix

    Sixonesix
    is a Past SPL Winner

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2007
    Messages:
    2,604
    I think I'm more or less finished with the main body. If anyone has more suggestions for the list, now would be a good time to post them.
  5. cosmicexplorer

    cosmicexplorer pewpewpew
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    May 25, 2010
    Messages:
    1,555
    I would add Amoonguss that do not decrease their speed here too; I've seen a few, and they do a good job of royally screwing over most TR setup mons.

    20 Spe Adamant Golurk is in the analysis, so it's probably a good idea to add.

    I see no reason for +2 Accelgor to be in there. Unburden is as of yet unreleased, and it's very unlikely to be on a Tailwind team.
  6. Sixonesix

    Sixonesix
    is a Past SPL Winner

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2007
    Messages:
    2,604
    It's redundant to add a separate entry for 20 Spe Golurk since it's only used to outspeed Scrafty--Scrafty can just as easily run the same number of speed EVs to regain the speed advantage if necessary.

    I'll put in the other two things though.
  7. muffinhead

    muffinhead b202 wifi vgc
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2010
    Messages:
    933
    +2 jolly 252 liepard perhaps (for snatching tailwind)? not entirely necessary though
  8. Darkmalice

    Darkmalice Like a facepalm, but better
    is a Tiering Contributor

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2008
    Messages:
    1,537
    You could also add Choice Scarf Modest Chandelure and Vanilluxe; they're more commonly running Modest than a +Speed nature. +2 +Speed Terrakion should also be mentioned (Jolly Terrakion with Tailwind support, most commonly occurring as part of the Terrakion + Whimsicott combo).

    Also +2 +Speed Carracosta (Shell Smash).
  9. sandman

    sandman Bum bum bum bum
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    May 11, 2007
    Messages:
    2,123
    Liepard also has Unburden so with a Focus Sash its quite common it'll be getting the boost.
  10. muffinhead

    muffinhead b202 wifi vgc
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2010
    Messages:
    933
    frankly, the only reason to use liepard is to snatch things and fake out. it is so fast that unburden wont do much for it. limber is much better against discharge users and mispredicting a Thundurus' thunder wave.
  11. sandman

    sandman Bum bum bum bum
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    May 11, 2007
    Messages:
    2,123
    I've seen a few run Dark Gem + Sucker Punch or Focus Sash to get the Unburden boost. It was good being able to Encore Terrakion, Thundurus and Tornadus after wards.
  12. muffinhead

    muffinhead b202 wifi vgc
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2010
    Messages:
    933
    If you try to fake out any one of these pokemon while they protect, they will all outspeed and ohko. ill be writing up liepard [hopefully] soon and we can move this discussion there
  13. Sixonesix

    Sixonesix
    is a Past SPL Winner

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2007
    Messages:
    2,604
    Added all the suggestions presented. Any others? If not, I think this is about complete.
  14. iss

    iss happily ever after
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2009
    Messages:
    2,093
    Add +2 max speed Timid Amoonguss. It outspeeds genies by one point in Tailwind, meaning it's actually good.
  15. Nexus

    Nexus Day 358: Believe
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Super Moderatoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Wi-Fi Commissioner

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2009
    Messages:
    2,853
  16. Oglemi

    Oglemi gimme
    is a Tournament Directoris a member of the Site Staffis a Community Contributoris a Pokemon Researcheris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributoris an Administratoris a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
    C&C Leader

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2009
    Messages:
    9,075
    Getting Started

    To begin with, find the maximum Speed of the Pokemon you're building. You can find this information on our analysis pages for each Pokemon. After you've found your maximum Speed, use the following tables to see how much Speed the threats you wish to outspeed have, and EV your Pokemon accordingly. Keep in mind that when calculating your maximum Speed stat, you need to take into account your Pokemon's Speed IV.

    For example, neutral Speed natured Sawk can hit a maximum Speed of 137. No Pokemon in Sawk's Speed tier has greater than 132 Speed (neutral natured base 80s). You can therefore safely run 133 Speed, which only requires 224 EVs as opposed to 252, and still allows Sawk to outrun all necessary threats.

    Speed Boosts

    To calculate your necessary starting Speed when factoring in Agility, Rock Polish, Chlorophyll, or Swift Swim, all you need to do is add one to the Speed of the Pokemon you wish to outspeed, divide it by two and round up the result. In practice, for example, should you decide that you want your Quiver Dance Modest Lilligant to outspeed Adamant +2 Sawsbuck in the sun to avoid the faster Return, you just add one Sawsbuck's Speed, giving you 295. Dividing this in half and rounding up the result (from 147.5 to 148) gives you your desired starting Speed.

    VGC Specifics

    Remember that in VGC all Pokemon are level 50 and so Speeds are lower, and it takes more EVs to increase your Speed stat. Also, in VGC Speed altering mechanics, such as Icy Wind and Trick Room, are more prevalent and so there are more things to worry about when deciding what speed to run.

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)