VGC 2011 Threats and Tiering

[NDenizen]

I made a few changes to the main post. Just going to emphasise that the list is based on usage and why, not whether something is good or its job is outclassed by something else.

That doesn't mean we can't discuss why a pokemon is outclassed, or how bad/good it is, that's all useful stuff to discuss, it just doesn't justify a move up or down by itself. If everyone used Pansage, it would be "OU" even if it is crap.

 

[cosmicexplorer]

If you're going by usage, no one uses Encore or Taunt on Darmanitan. If you're going by the moves being a viable option, they're not; Darmanitan's far too frail, and when it can OHKO literally everything but physically defensive Musharna, Hydreigon, and Jellicent, Taunt and Encore are completely pointless on Darmanitan. There's absolutely no point in mentioning them.

 

[Ashenlock]

I just thought it was worth mentioning, and even though they aren't useful, by bringing them up we have deterred people from using a bad set of moves that might have lost them a game. Nothing is absolutely useless; there is a little good to be gleaned out of everything.

 

[NDenizen]

If you're going by usage, no one uses Encore or Taunt on Darmanitan. If you're going by the moves being a viable option, they're not; Darmanitan's far too frail, and when it can OHKO literally everything but physically defensive Musharna, Hydreigon, and Jellicent, Taunt and Encore are completely pointless on Darmanitan. There's absolutely no point in mentioning them.

Well maybe not Taunt since tons of things get that, but Encore still seems a move worth mentioning. The qualities listed do go on the basis of "a viable option", or rather "stuff they can do in Doubles", and access to Encore still is relevant even if Darmanitan can play better roles.

People run Earthquake on Terakion and Imprison on Chandelure, they're not great but they're there. Mienshao and Conkeldurr both have Wide Guard, and even if they don't commonly use them, they can. Obviously that would be reason to list every possible good move in Doubles on every pokemon, something i've refused to do because i'm lazy and inconsistent anyway.

Pokemon, Doubles and VGC do have an element of surprise, and just because something is better at one thing doesn't mean it can't royally fuck you over with another. A unique or rare feature is I think worth mentioning.

 

[cosmicexplorer]

Darmanitan can't royally fuck anything over with Encore due to its low Speed and no Prankster. What it fucks stuff over royally with is Flare Blitz, which OHKOs everything. It has literally no use whatsoever, especially with its monstrously powerful Flare Blitz. It's not worth mentioning at all, it's not a viable option, and it's not anything anyone should be preparing for. As for the moves you mentioned, almost no one runs Earthquake on Terrakion, but Mienshao, Conkeldurr, and Chandelure frequently run the moves you've mentioned. That's because they do have some conceivable use. Encore is completely useless on Darmanitan due to its frailty and ability to OHKO everything with Flare Blitz anyway. There's no element of surprise, there's nothing gained by adding Encore onto Darmanitan because it will never find the time to use it, and it will be completely mediocre when it does use it, so putting it on this threat list is not only useless, it's just confusing newer players who don't know better. That's why Taunt and Encore shouldn't be mentioned on Darmanitan.

 

[Ashenlock]

so putting it on this threat list is not only useless, it's just confusing newer players who don't know better.

I wasn't saying it should be put on the list. What happened is, I asked why Encore/Taunt hadn't been mentioned, you explained why it wasn't, and I agreed, having heard a good argument. In that way it's only helpful that we had this short discussion, because if someone came in here WITHOUT knowing one way or the other about Encore/Taunt, then he might have lost a match due to putting them on Darmanitan instead of a better move. The ony way it could be confusing is if that person literally just read what I said and didn't read your rebuttal following it.

 

[Baldafor]

I have to second the idea of placing Stoutland higher on the list. It was on my team, and I had great success using it personally (although I did use a, erm, limited set).

Also, Golurk was probably the most useful pokemon on my team. Having an Explosion immunity, forcing Conkeldurr to use Rock Slide to hurt it, completely making Terrakion useless, and able to OHKO pretty much anything it needs to with Ghost Gem Shadow Punch got me into the Top 32.

Thundurus for VGC 2011 Ubers!

 

[Mysterious Trainer]

I still don't understand what this thread is for. VGC is a Nintendo-regulated metagame. Simply meaning that VGC is... VGC. What's the difference between theoretical VGC-UU and theoretical OU-UU? If you establish sub-tiers it ceases to be official 2011 Video Game Championships.

 

[NDenizen]

I still don't understand what this thread is for. VGC is a Nintendo-regulated metagame. Simply meaning that VGC is... VGC. What's the difference between theoretical VGC-UU and theoretical OU-UU? If you establish sub-tiers it ceases to be official 2011 Video Game Championships.

It's based solely on usage - there is no Uber tier, or bans outside the VGC's restriction of of events and mascots. It is not creating a VGC metagame, it's reflecting what the actual VGC is like at the moment. There is a definite centralisation of which pokemon are used, and you can easily divide up the roster into pokemon that are popular amongst players and those that aren't even being touched.

Isn't that obvious just from reading the thread?

 

[cosmicexplorer]

I wasn't saying it should be put on the list. What happened is, I asked why Encore/Taunt hadn't been mentioned, you explained why it wasn't, and I agreed, having heard a good argument. In that way it's only helpful that we had this short discussion, because if someone came in here WITHOUT knowing one way or the other about Encore/Taunt, then he might have lost a match due to putting them on Darmanitan instead of a better move. The ony way it could be confusing is if that person literally just read what I said and didn't read your rebuttal following it.

That's what the VGC analyses are for, for mentioning what works on a Pokemon and what doesn't. This is a threat list, to explain what people should watch out for. So if it's been established that Encore and Taunt are useless, why are they still on the list? This leads right back to confusing newer players who don't know the difference, see that Darmanitan can run Encore and Taunt on this list, and then maybe play differently against a Darmanitan in their regionals because of that assumption, and get eliminated because of it.

EDIT: Oh, you're not the OP. NDenizen, for the reasons previously stated, Encore and Taunt should be removed from Darmanitan's section in this thread.

Also, how is level 1 Solosis not completely outclassed by Cottonee / Whimsicott?

 

[Mysterious Trainer]

It's based solely on usage - there is no Uber tier, or bans outside the VGC's restriction of of events and mascots. It is not creating a VGC metagame, it's reflecting what the actual VGC is like at the moment. There is a definite centralisation of which pokemon are used, and you can easily divide up the roster into pokemon that are popular amongst players and those that aren't even being touched.

Isn't that obvious just from reading the thread?

Thing is, this "tier list" isn't based on actual usage statistics, you said that yourself. This whole thread is just an over-complicated threat list. I'm sure Rising_Dusk could give you the actual usage stats if you asked and he thought anyone would be interested enough.

 

[cosmicexplorer]

Thing is, this "tier list" isn't based on actual usage statistics, you said that yourself. This whole thread is just an over-complicated threat list. I'm sure Rising_Dusk could give you the actual usage stats if you asked and he thought anyone would be interested enough.

This forms a vague “Tier list” for what’s being used in the 2011 VGC.

"vague"

This is just meant to be a guideline to what your team should be most prepared for. We don't need precise statistics, because we're not making actual OU and UU tiers, and the online statistics are unlikely to reflect the actual metagame come each regional.

 

[NDenizen]

EDIT: Oh, you're not the OP. NDenizen, for the reasons previously stated, Encore and Taunt should be removed from Darmanitan's section in this thread.

Looking at who gets it, it's actually a pretty common move, so yeah it probably is not worth a mention on Darmanitan

Also, how is level 1 Solosis not completely outclassed by Cottonee / Whimsicott?

If the Level 1 is setting up and abusing Trick Room, then Solosis is better. With Whimiscott, Endeavor and Trick Room don't benefit from Prankster, and if you're running Protect it also doesn't matter. You then have one more move that has to be status to benefit from Prankster, which in TR will only be useful in beating priority, something that you have a Focus Sash and Protect to work around with anyway. For every turn your Endeavor-user is alive, it can inflict heavy damage, and not taking damage from Iron Barbs, Rough Skin, Flame Body, Burn, Toxic, Poison, Sandstorm and other residual damage assures it sticks around.

If you're not using TR, then I imagine Whimsicott is better, but at that point Endeavor is more of an afterthought on top of Prankster, and you're open to have its staying power taken away by Priority.

 

[cosmicexplorer]

If the Level 1 is setting up and abusing Trick Room, then Solosis is better. With Whimiscott, Endeavor and Trick Room don't benefit from Prankster, and if you're running Protect it also doesn't matter. You then have one more move that has to be status to benefit from Prankster, which in TR will only be useful in beating priority, something that you have a Focus Sash and Protect to work around with anyway. For every turn your Endeavor-user is alive, it can inflict heavy damage, and not taking damage from Iron Barbs, Rough Skin, Flame Body, Burn, Toxic, Poison, Sandstorm and other residual damage assures it sticks around.

If you're not using TR, then I imagine Whimsicott is better, but at that point Endeavor is more of an afterthought on top of Prankster, and you're open to have its staying power taken away by Priority.

Level 1 Cottonee / Whimsicott's advantages over Solosis include: Leech Seed, and Prankster Substitute and Taunt. These allow it to restore the entirety of its health each turn while stalling out the opponent, or just wreck setup like Whimsicott always does. Those are huge advantages, and when you consider that only Ferrothorn and Druddigon have abilities that hurt Whimsicott when it Endeavors, and Volcarona only has a 30% chance to burn it, while the other status and weather you mentioned are extremely uncommon, Magic Guard is almost useless when compared to the movepool and utility of Prankster. Solosis is completely outclassed.

 

[NDenizen]

Level 1 Cottonee / Whimsicott's advantages over Solosis include: Leech Seed, and Prankster Substitute and Taunt. These allow it to restore the entirety of its health each turn while stalling out the opponent, or just wreck setup like Whimsicott always does. Those are huge advantages, and when you consider that only Ferrothorn and Druddigon have abilities that hurt Whimsicott when it Endeavors, and Volcarona only has a 30% chance to burn it, while the other status and weather you mentioned are extremely uncommon, Magic Guard is almost useless when compared to the movepool and utility of Prankster. Solosis is completely outclassed.

I'd argue against "completely outclassed". Magic Guard makes quite the difference. I guess i'll give it a try over Solosis for a bit, which i've been combining with Scrafty's Fake Out and Rock Slide to keep it alive.

EDIT: It's really doing nothing for me.

This is basically how I use Solosis:

Hide

Tier: VGC 2011
Variation: +19, -13
Rule: Rated
Rule: Item Clause
Rule: Species Clause
Rule: Wifi Battle
Rule: Self-KO Clause

Metalsonic82 sent out Alomomola!
NDenizen sent out Solosis!
Metalsonic82 sent out Ferrothorn!
NDenizen sent out Scrafty!

Start of turn 1
Scrafty used Fake Out!
A critical hit!
The foe's Alomomola lost 20% of its health!

The foe's Alomomola flinched!

The foe's Ferrothorn used Ingrain!
The foe's Ferrothorn planted its roots!

Solosis used Trick Room!
Solosis twisted the dimensions!

Start of turn 2
Solosis used Endeavor!
The foe's Ferrothorn lost 92% of its health!

The foe's Ferrothorn used Toxic!
Scrafty was poisoned!

Scrafty used Rock Slide!
The foe's Alomomola lost 13% of its health!
It's not very effective...
The foe's Ferrothorn lost 6% of its health!

The foe's Alomomola flinched!

The foe's Ferrothorn absorbed nutrients with its roots!
The foe's Ferrothorn restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
Scrafty is hurt by poison!

Start of turn 3
The foe's Ferrothorn used Protect!
The foe's Ferrothorn protected itself!

Solosis used Endeavor!
The foe's Alomomola lost 62% of its health!

Scrafty used Rock Slide!
The foe's Alomomola lost 4% of its health!
The foe's Alomomola fainted!
The foe's Ferrothorn avoided the attack!

The foe's Ferrothorn absorbed nutrients with its roots!
The foe's Ferrothorn restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
Scrafty is hurt by poison!
Metalsonic82 sent out Reuniclus!

Rhyten is watching the battle.
Rhyten stopped watching the battle.

Start of turn 4
Solosis used Endeavor!
The foe's Reuniclus lost 94% of its health!

The foe's Ferrothorn used Power Whip!
Scrafty lost 63 HP! (36% of its health)

The foe's Reuniclus used Shadow Ball!
It's super effective!
Solosis lost 10 HP! (90% of its health)
Solosis hung on using its focus sash!

Scrafty used Rock Slide!
The foe's Reuniclus avoided the attack!
It's not very effective...
The foe's Ferrothorn lost 6% of its health!

The foe's Ferrothorn absorbed nutrients with its roots!
The foe's Ferrothorn restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
Scrafty is hurt by poison!

Start of turn 5
Solosis used Endeavor!
The foe's Ferrothorn lost 30% of its health!

The foe's Ferrothorn used Power Whip!
Scrafty lost 46 HP! (26% of its health)
Scrafty fainted!

The foe's Reuniclus used Recover!
The foe's Reuniclus regained health!

The foe's Ferrothorn absorbed nutrients with its roots!
The foe's Ferrothorn restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
The twisted dimensions returned to normal!
NDenizen sent out Chandelure!

Start of turn 6
The foe's Ferrothorn used Protect!
The foe's Ferrothorn protected itself!

Chandelure used Heat Wave!
The foe's Reuniclus lost 48% of its health!
The foe's Ferrothorn protected itself!

The foe's Reuniclus used Shadow Ball!
It's super effective!
Solosis lost 1 HP! (9% of its health)
Solosis fainted!

The foe's Ferrothorn absorbed nutrients with its roots!
The foe's Ferrothorn restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
NDenizen sent out Conkeldurr!

Start of turn 7
The foe's Ferrothorn used Protect!
But it failed!

Chandelure used Heat Wave!
The foe's Reuniclus lost 7% of its health!
The foe's Reuniclus fainted!
It's super effective!
The foe's Ferrothorn lost 24% of its health!
The foe's Ferrothorn fainted!

Conkeldurr used Rock Slide!
But there was no target...

Metalsonic82 sent out Thundurus!

Start of turn 8
The foe's Thundurus used Psychic!
It's super effective!
Conkeldurr lost 148 HP! (82% of its health)

Chandelure used Heat Wave!
The foe's Thundurus lost 80% of its health!

Conkeldurr used Rock Slide!
It's super effective!
The foe's Thundurus lost 19% of its health!
The foe's Thundurus fainted!

Not the greatest battle, but a good example.

Set up Trick Room, use Endeavor and Rock Slide/any multi-hit move together to net a KO each turn. I don't see how Cottonee is doing any of this better. Iron Barbs and Toxic in this case would have killed Cottonee before it could get as far as Solosis did.

 

[Yoshiken]

Actually, Iron Barbs wouldn't've killed Cottonee because it would have used Leech Seed at some point.
Keep in mind that you don't even need to hit 1 HP to use FEAR in this format - at Lv 1, the HP you have as normal is going to be enough for a Mach Punch/Heat Wave/Rock Slide to kill, even if it's resisted. Cottonee runs Leech Seed so that you can use it ASAP and use the Sash repeatedly until they double-target it.

 

[Solace]

the fact that your opponent used ferrothorn in the first place makes me question the authenticity of how solosis is better than cottonee at level 1...

honestly, vgc needs a threatlist more than a tier list and this kind of thing is going to confuse new players into thinking they only need to prepare for what's listed as "OU".

I agree with whoever said to do Tier 1, Tier 2 etc., and do them based on commonness and power, as well as movepool.

 

[voodoo pimp]

Cottonee runs Leech Seed so that you can use it ASAP and use the Sash repeatedly until they double-target it.

Wait, does Sash no longer only work once?

 

[Vixana]

I always thought that the sash would activate every time you should be dropped from full to dead. Under normal conditions, that's once, but since it's a kept item, it should be able to activate multiple times.

 

[voodoo pimp]

I seem to remember it disappearing after use. Serebii agrees with me. Don't have my DS on hand so I can't test it for sure.

 

[ncsbert]

I always thought that the sash would activate every time you should be dropped from full to dead. Under normal conditions, that's once, but since it's a kept item, it should be able to activate multiple times.

Wrong. Focus Sash is a consumable item. If used in-game, it will activate once and only once.

 

[Expeditious]

The multiple use thing only works with Sturdy, which means level 1 Aron with Shell Bell. And that isn't possible in this format.

 

[tarspaceheel]

The multiple use thing only works with Sturdy, which means level 1 Aron with Shell Bell. And that isn't possible in this format.

Is there anything similar, such as a level 1 Roggenrola with Shell Bell, or Sawk, Throh, Dwebble or Tirtouga?

 

[NDenizen]

Cottonee runs Leech Seed so that you can use it ASAP and use the Sash repeatedly until they double-target it.

Game Mechanics, people. Learn them.

the fact that your opponent used ferrothorn in the first place makes me question the authenticity of how solosis is better than cottonee at level 1...

this kind of thing is going to confuse new players into thinking they only need to prepare for what's listed as "OU".

Pardon me if this strikes me as hypocritical - you tell me my method is invalidated by my opponent simply using Ferrothorn, then in the same post assert that "players should be prepared for pokemon that aren't the most common". The two statements don't work together.

I agree with whoever said to do Tier 1, Tier 2 etc., and do them based on commonness and power, as well as movepool.

Frequency of Use is relevant. Power and Movepool are good to identify as they explain which benefits the pokemon has that might contribute to its higher usage over other pokemon. However, taking power or movepool into question just opens the doors to a ton of subjectivity, outside of the already subjective method of simply observing usage in competitions and simulators.

Yes, it would be a problem if players only adjusted to the Top threats, but then that just makes them bad players. A good player can account for every strategy, especially so in this VGC, where you can view your opponent's team and you have two extra slots for appropriate responses.

Plus, what isn't in the "OU" list that isn't defining the threats? There you have the best Prankster users, the best Multi-Hit move users, the best priority users, the best walls, the pokemon with the niche-but-effective strategies.

If you have a list of "threats that new players should be aware of", then make it, and if it's useful then it should be in the first post. I'm trying to stick to usage, because I don't want players preparing for Hail and Rain teams when there's Prankster to look out for.

 

[cosmicexplorer]

Set up Trick Room, use Endeavor and Rock Slide/any multi-hit move together to net a KO each turn. I don't see how Cottonee is doing any of this better. Iron Barbs and Toxic in this case would have killed Cottonee before it could get as far as Solosis did.

Ferrothorn and Toxic are used so little (and for good reason) that Magic Guard is only a very slight advantage over Prankster. A single log does not make this untrue. And you can't argue that Prankster Taunt, Substitute, and Encore are useless. Solosis is completely pointless when Cottonee / Whimsicott exists.

Is there anything similar, such as a level 1 Roggenrola with Shell Bell, or Sawk, Throh, Dwebble or Tirtouga?

None of them get Endeavor.