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VGC 2012-Ace in the Hole

Discussion in 'BW Other Teams' started by Dimsun, Apr 28, 2012.

  1. Dimsun

    Dimsun
    is a VGC 2012 Seniors World Champion

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2010
    Messages:
    259
    [​IMG]
    Hey! Dimsun here, and I'd like to show you one of my most successful teams that I've been using on the Skarmbliss PO Server. It's actually netted my highest ranking(4th, at 1303 rating) on the server. So, without further ado, let's get into the team!
    At a Glimpse:

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    Teambuilding (open)

    [​IMG]
    I began with Mamoswine as the base. Mamo is a fantastic mon for chipping away at opponent's bulkier guys, and he's always worthwhile to put on the team.
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    Metagross and Rotom are both amazing Pokemon. I didn't just do this because of Moof's article on the Smog; on my regionals team, I had switched from Rotom-H to Rotom-W because I needed the extra ability to play against Rain and Sand. It turned out that Rotom W was an amazing partner for Mamo and worked fantastically even when it wasn't with the tusked menace. Metagross is almost standard for every team; he serves a similar role to Mamoswine, chipping away at the opponent. Also, he's great against Cress.
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    Alright, so I had seen Volcarona on many Regionals teams and wanted to test it. The Volcy is so fantastic and after a Quiver, does quite a bit of work. The high base speed and base special attack benefitted the team so much.
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    Hitmontop was a natural pick. He's a fantastic part of any team and gets Tyranitar out fast. Once he faints, you can usually come in and clean up the rest of the opponent's team, if you led with him. Wide Gaurd was also really useful and paired well with Mamo.
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    Well, now this is looking a lot like my regionals team with a Volcarona slapped on! Latios was used because Draco Meteor OHKOs so much. He really doesn't serve a purpose aside from being a pocket nuke against opposing Rotom W, which almost always woudl give this team trouble.
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    Latios simply wasn't my best choice, and that was made clear when I tried out Salamence! Salamence is fantastic. It's Modest max Sp. Atk Draco Meteor is almost as powerful as Latios', so we aren't really losing anything switching to him. Also, he has Intimidate, isn't weak to Sucker Punch, and has a useful spread move in Heat Wave! His synergy with Mamoswine was phenomenal as well. Also, when I had put him in, I was still using Hitmontop and they gelled really well together. Breloom was put in over Hitmontop to beat Trick Room teams not carrying an obvious Fake Out-er. However, I'm still pretty iffy about Breloom, even though he has proven very useful(and checks Rotom W better then Hitmontop could hope to do), due to his general frailty. So now that we're done with that, let's get on to the team!


    In Depth
    [​IMG]
    Mamoswine @ Focus Sash
    Trait: Snow Cloak
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Earthquake
    - Icicle Spear
    - Ice Shard
    - Protect​
    Mamoswine is beautiful. See those tusks? The white is just a covering to make sure the PURE GOLD on the inside isn't damaged.
    In all seriousness, Mamoswine is a fantastic 'mon. He synergizes really well with Salamence, whom helps to weaken threatening physical attackers. At the moment, I was trying Icicle Spear at Zachdro's suggestion. With Mamo, I would definitely put a slash between Icicle Spear and Icicle Crash most of the time, because both moves work well while one has a flinch chance and the other hits through Yache and Sash. Earthquake is great and helps Rotom-W, whom is great partner to have in the back or with Mamoswine because of how well it deals with most opposing Metagross, one of the largest issues for Mamoswine. EVs are generic, as with Sash I don't need max HP to survive attacks. Mamoswine isn't even damaged by weather, so he really is one of the best users of the item. Also, Mamoswine gets Ice Shard, one of the better priority moves in VGC.

    [​IMG]

    Salamence @ Dragon Gem
    Trait: Intimidate
    EVs: 54 HP / 252 SAtk / 204 Spd
    Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
    - Draco Meteor
    - Heat Wave
    - Protect
    - Substitute​
    Salamence is almost as marvelous as Mamo. Dragon Gem Draco Meteor is nearly as powerful as Latios'. However, Salamence has Intimidate, which I consider far superior to Latios' Levitate, if only because Salamence is part flying type. This team actually has three ice resists, so Salamence really doesn't have to worry; I can switch him out on a predicted ice type attack. Substitute is there in case he goes up against Cresselia or the like, while Protect is really one of the most useful moves in VGC. 204 Speed Modest allows it to outspeed max speed Timid Chandelure by one point.

    [​IMG]

    Rotom-W @ Electric Gem
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 SAtk / 4 Spd
    Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
    - Thunderbolt
    - Hydro Pump
    - Protect
    - Hidden Power [Grass]​
    Rotom is fantastic. He almost completely checks most Metagross variants and is a huge help beating Sandstorm teams. Electric Gem Thunderbolt tears a dent in anything that doesn't resist it and is therefore preferred over Sitrus Berry with which Rotom sorely misses damage. Hidden Power Grass is a nasty surprise to opposing Gastrodon, forcing the opponent to either switch out or protect with the slug. Although HP Grass only deals about 80% damage to opposing Gastrodon, Gastro will have typically taken damage prior and faint. Rindo Gastro takes about 40% and is forced to switch. Also, HP Grass deals slightly higher damage to opposing Rotom Wash then Thunderbolt, which is nice.

    [​IMG]

    Volcarona @ Lum Berry
    Trait: Flame Body
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
    - Heat Wave
    - Bug Buzz
    - Quiver Dance
    - Protect​
    <3 Volcarona, that's all

    No, Volcarona is fantastic and I'm glad I started testing it. Lum Berry blocks opposing Cresselia's Thunder Wave, allowing Volcarona to poke a hole in the opponent's defense. After enough Quiver Dances, this thing will deal over half to anything, even Pokemon that resists Volcarona's two STABs. However, Volcarona also constitutes a weakness to rain in my team.

    [​IMG]

    metagame (Metagross) @ Occa Berry
    Trait: Clear Body
    EVs: 172 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def / 68 SDef / 12 Spd
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Iron Head
    - Earthquake
    - Bullet Punch
    - Protect​
    Metagross is a mon that serves a similar role to Mamoswine, just in different situations. Bullet Punch is extremely useful priority, while Iron Flinch(Head) has always-hit goodness stuffed inside of it. Earthquake puts a dent in opposing Chandelures thinking they can Overheat this thing to death. The EVs provide great special bulk, along with buffing up Metagross' attack stat and allowing it to just slightly outspeed 4 Speed Hitmontop and Metagross.

    [​IMG]

    Breloom @ Toxic Orb
    Trait: Poison Heal
    EVs: 116 HP / 252 Atk / 140 Spd
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Seed Bomb
    - Protect
    - Spore
    - Drain Punch​
    Breloom was put on the team for one reason; stopping Trick Room. Aside from that, it also helps when the opponent leads Hitmontop/Cresselia. The biggest issue with this thing is its measly defenses, which allows it to be OHKO'd even by a Non-STAB Heat Wave from Zapdos. Even then though, Spore is a fantastic move and so is Seed Bomb. With 252 Attack EVs and Adamant, Seed Bomb has a good chance to OHKO opposing Rotom, which again is extremely useful. 140 Speed allows Breloom to just barely outspeed 4 Speed Rotom-Wash(Which also means Cresselia! Get rid of that Chesto.). Breloom doesn't really need speed for anything else.
    However, I've used Hitmontop in this slot before and found similar success. Without a Wide Gaurd-er, Volcarona has a hard time getting up a quiver or dealing any damage at all. Therefore, Breloom is definitely the most iffy member of my team.
    Importable (open)
    Mamoswine (F) @ Focus Sash
    Trait: Snow Cloak
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Earthquake
    - Icicle Spear
    - Ice Shard
    - Protect

    Salamence (M) @ Dragon Gem
    Trait: Intimidate
    EVs: 54 HP / 252 SAtk / 204 Spd
    Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
    - Draco Meteor
    - Heat Wave
    - Protect
    - Substitute

    Rotom-W @ Electric Gem
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 SAtk / 4 Spd
    Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
    - Thunderbolt
    - Hydro Pump
    - Protect
    - Hidden Power [Grass]

    Volcarona (M) @ Lum Berry
    Trait: Flame Body
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
    - Heat Wave
    - Bug Buzz
    - Quiver Dance
    - Protect

    metagame (Metagross) @ Occa Berry
    Trait: Clear Body
    EVs: 172 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def / 68 SDef / 12 Spd
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Iron Head
    - Earthquake
    - Bullet Punch
    - Protect

    Breloom (M) @ Toxic Orb
    Trait: Poison Heal
    EVs: 116 HP / 252 Atk / 140 Spd
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Seed Bomb
    - Protect
    - Spore
    - Drain Punch


    So, that's the team. I hope you like it! Please, point out issues I may have made teambuilding or just writing errors in general. Thanks!
  2. TrollFreak

    TrollFreak (╮°-°)╮┳━┳ (╯°□°)╯ ┻━┻
    is a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2011
    Messages:
    1,249
    DIMSUN!!!!

    Great team, , the use of Mamo and Mence on the team as well

    full rate coming later (why mom WHY D:)

    EDIT: Ok, so we talked on PO, and here is the rate in case you forget

    The Bold is the actual rate material, but read all of it again anyways :D

    Show Hide
    (13:56) thetrueandhonest: what?
    (13:56) TrollFreak: hi :3
    (13:56) thetrueandhonest: hi!
    (13:57) TrollFreak: awesome team
    (13:57) thetrueandhonest: tank yous
    (13:57) thetrueandhonest: :D
    (13:57) TrollFreak: k
    (13:57) thetrueandhonest: it gets haxed sometimes though
    (13:57) TrollFreak: so, did you ever try HP Ice / Fire on Rotom?
    (13:58) TrollFreak: because really, you already have powerful attacks to dispose of Gastro, why do you need HP Grass
    (13:58) thetrueandhonest: because
    (13:58) thetrueandhonest: hp grass
    (13:58) thetrueandhonest: also kills lightningrod rhyperior
    (13:58) thetrueandhonest: forgot to mention that
    (13:58) thetrueandhonest: 100% hitrate
    (13:58) TrollFreak: doesn't Hydro Pump do that?
    (13:58) TrollFreak: oh, for the accuracy
    (13:59) thetrueandhonest: yeah
    (13:59) thetrueandhonest: also
    (13:59) thetrueandhonest: gastrodon does give this team trouble
    (13:59) thetrueandhonest: especially ones carrying recover
    (13:59) thetrueandhonest: because they are perfectly fine to ride out the powerful attacks
    (13:59) thetrueandhonest: also the opponent is forced to panic mode and essentially only have one pokemon on the field for a turn while they switch/protect
    (14:00) thetrueandhonest: so having hp grass makes gastro extremely predictable
    (14:00) thetrueandhonest: essentially
    (14:00) thetrueandhonest: plus, without it, rotom is very easily walled
    (14:00) thetrueandhonest: by every water/ground type in the game
    (14:00) thetrueandhonest: that has decent sp.def
    (14:00) thetrueandhonest: :P
    (14:00) thetrueandhonest: if only because of hydro pump's hit rate
    (14:00) TrollFreak: lol, the only other water/ground is Swampert
    (14:00) TrollFreak: which is a 2HKO w/ Hydro
    (14:01) TrollFreak: and I guess Quagsire and Wishcask
    (14:01) TrollFreak: but no one uses those
    (14:01) thetrueandhonest: but
    (14:01) thetrueandhonest: 2hko with hydro
    (14:01) thetrueandhonest: gdi that's hard to actually pull off
    (14:01) thetrueandhonest: as in
    (14:01) thetrueandhonest: gdi hydro pump never hits anything
    (14:01) thetrueandhonest: plus, why would I use hp fire or hp ice?
    (14:02) thetrueandhonest: rotom is OHKO'd by most dragon types hit by hp ice
    (14:02) thetrueandhonest: and already almost entirely checks steel types hit by fire
    (14:02) thetrueandhonest: the only reason I would use fire
    (14:02) thetrueandhonest: would be to hit grass types
    (14:02) thetrueandhonest: who also OHKO rotom
    (14:02) thetrueandhonest: ;P
    (14:02) thetrueandhonest: so
    (14:02) TrollFreak: ok
    (14:03) thetrueandhonest: that's my extensive reasoning on using rotom w with hp grass lol
    (14:03) thetrueandhonest: :P
    (14:03) TrollFreak: on my team I've used HP Grass Rotom
    (14:03) TrollFreak: never used it that much, but thats me
    (14:04) thetrueandhonest: XD neither have I!
    (14:04) thetrueandhonest: but it's better then being walled.
    (14:04) TrollFreak: another thing is QD Volca w/o Wide Guard support
    (14:04) thetrueandhonest: yeah
    (14:04) thetrueandhonest: that's
    (14:04) thetrueandhonest: why I'm fluttering between hitmontop and breloom :3
    (14:04) thetrueandhonest: I can't decide.
    (14:04) TrollFreak: i mean, w/o it, its hard to get QD up, since Rock Slide = OHKO
    (14:04) thetrueandhonest: yeah.
    (14:04) TrollFreak: any Rock Slide too, since no charti
    (14:04) thetrueandhonest: It forces me to play volcarona less when I'm not playing hitmontop too
    (14:05) thetrueandhonest: that's the only real reason I'm iffy on breloom,
    (14:05) thetrueandhonest: although I didn't make that clear.
    (14:05) TrollFreak: yea
    (14:05) thetrueandhonest: Better go do that.
    (14:05) TrollFreak: i mean, w/o Fake Out, Intimidate or Wide Guard support (or a Charti Berry), it'll be hard getting up a QD
    (14:06) TrollFreak: Metagross, I'm assuming Iron Head for accuracy?
    (14:06) thetrueandhonest: Yeah.
    (14:06) thetrueandhonest: And flinch rate.
    (14:06) TrollFreak: yea
    (14:06) thetrueandhonest: Most of this stuff amounts to me
    (14:06) thetrueandhonest: testing stuff for a prolonged time
    (14:07) TrollFreak: Meteor Mash + Bullet Punch gets KOs Iron Head + BP can't
    (14:08) thetrueandhonest: I know
    (14:08) thetrueandhonest: but meteor mash misses for me most of the time
    (14:08) TrollFreak: (+Atk) Iron Head vs 4 HP/0 Def Latios: 59.62% - 71.15%
    (14:08) TrollFreak: 2 hits to KO
    (14:08) TrollFreak: (+Atk) Bullet Punch vs 4 HP/0 Def Latios: 30.77% - 36.54%
    (14:08) TrollFreak: 3-4 hits to KO
    (14:09) TrollFreak: just an example, but unless you get over 70% + w/ Iron Head, you won't KO it next turn w/ BP

    (14:10) thetrueandhonest: I KNOW
    (14:10) thetrueandhonest: I've used meteor mash before
    (14:10) TrollFreak: I mean yea, accuracy sucks, but I like the power
    (14:10) thetrueandhonest: and don't get me wrong I enjoy it
    (14:10) TrollFreak: lol, I know
    (14:10) thetrueandhonest: but iron head is a decent choice too
    (14:11) TrollFreak: i'm the screw it if it misses it misses, but I need the damage kind of guy
    (14:11) TrollFreak: that explains my suggestions, but yea, Iron Head works
    (14:12) TrollFreak: ok, last thing
    (14:12) thetrueandhonest: but
    (14:12) thetrueandhonest: the team
    (14:12) thetrueandhonest: really relies on the skill of the person playing with it
    (14:12) TrollFreak: have you ever tried Mach Punch on Breloom?
    (14:12) thetrueandhonest: Hmm :3
    (14:12) thetrueandhonest: no, I haven't.
    (14:12) TrollFreak: I know its weaker than DP
    (14:12) thetrueandhonest: Yeah.
    (14:12) TrollFreak: but Fight Pririty is nice
    (14:12) thetrueandhonest: I agree
    (14:12) thetrueandhonest: atm I'm using hitmontop again, XD
    (14:13) TrollFreak: and its cool to get rid of them threats
    (14:13) TrollFreak: ok, but if you use Breloom again, try MP > DP
    (14:13) thetrueandhonest: kk, of course I will!
    (14:13) thetrueandhonest: next time
    (14:13) thetrueandhonest: actually post
    (14:13) thetrueandhonest: :P
    (14:15) TrollFreak: i need to post all of this?
    (14:15) thetrueandhonest: oh no
    (14:15) thetrueandhonest: but you said
    (14:15) thetrueandhonest: you would be finishing your post
    (14:15) TrollFreak: right lol
  3. Ravix

    Ravix

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2011
    Messages:
    196
    Looks exactly like one of my current teams.

    Though I have Hp fire on rotom and meteor mash on Meta.

    Hitmontop > for this team.

    Breloom almost never sees use.
  4. Dimsun

    Dimsun
    is a VGC 2012 Seniors World Champion

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2010
    Messages:
    259
    I agree with you, Ravix. ATM though, the PO meta took a huge shift and I'm seeing quite a bit more rain, which this team has quite a bit of trouble with.
  5. MavsObbession

    MavsObbession

    Joined:
    May 8, 2011
    Messages:
    299
    Hey, there Dimsun! I might not be able to make it to Nats, but I can definitely help you! First, this rate will be about your threats, and my next post will be the solution. I don't want such a long post to give you an eyesore.

    Problems & Threats

    As you already pointed out, Rain Teams will give you a lot of trouble. If you don't have another weather check, such as Tyranitar or Abomasnow, Rain Teams will constantly double Surf with a 50% boost from Drizzle.

    Although some of your 'mons (Salamence, Breloom) can resist Surf, Absorb Bulb Ludicolo will OHKO Salamence with Ice Beam, while Breloom will not be able to survive a double Surf combo. Ludicolo is probably your biggest threat because it outspeeds all your Pokemon in Rain. I did the calcs, here's what Ludicolo (without boosts) would do to your team:

    Mamoswine (in Rain) - Surf: 167.7% - 197.8%
    Salamence - Ice Beam: 126.6% - 151.4%
    Rotom-W (Max HP) - Giga Drain: 53.5% - 65%
    Metagross (in Rain) - Surf: 56.1% - 66.3%
    Breloom (Max HP) - Surf: 46.7% - 55.1%
    Volcarona (in Rain) - Surf: 179.3% - 209.4% (not sure about this calc ONLY, because I used a 5th Gen beta calculator, but we both know Surf OHKO's Volc)

    As you can see, Ludicolo can either OHKO or 2HKO your whole team without boosts from Absorb Bulb, using moves such as Surf, Ice Beam, and Giga Drain.

    Rain Teams rely on Swift Swimmers to sweep, such as Kingdra and Ludicolo. If Rain is on the field the entire match, your opponent has the advantage because Swift Swimmers will outspeed you. If you take away the speed of a Rain Team, you have the advantage instead.

    Remember, I'm only talking about the threats first, then I'll post the solutions tomorrow. Hope I helped!
  6. pokemaster649

    pokemaster649

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2011
    Messages:
    339
    Try t-wave or tailwind against rain, it works.
  7. MavsObbession

    MavsObbession

    Joined:
    May 8, 2011
    Messages:
    299
    That can work also, but the most effective check is either TTar or Abomasnow because it can end the Rain and start up either Hail or Sandstorm.
  8. pokemaster649

    pokemaster649

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2011
    Messages:
    339
    I know, but you already mention that, I'm just adding more suggestions.
  9. Drifblim

    Drifblim

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2011
    Messages:
    550
    This team looks like it could have trouble with the occasional Sun and possibly Sandstorm as well. 3 weaknesses to Fire are an issue with Chandelure being somewhat common, while Salamence can outspeed it Sash is an incredibly common item for Chandelure. Volca can't really touch Chandy, but Chandelure can't do too much to it either. Mamoswine is OHKO'd by Chandelure unless it has Thick Fat. Metagross will take big damage before getting rid of Chandelure. For Clorophyll Sleep Powder users, you have no Taunt/Thunder Wave so they could just Sleep your more threatening Mon while Ninetales abuses the 3x Fire weaknesses. Sun is not very common, but I don't think this team would do well against it. Sandstorm is not a huge worry, Breloom, Rotom, and Mamo only have to be careful of Rock Slide flinches. Salamence's Intimidate works nicely against the abundance of physical attackers in Sand. Breloom contributes least to the team's overall success, goin back to Htop would be OK but here is another suggestion:

    Cresselia@Chesto Berry
    Calm
    252 Hp, 4 SpAtk, 252 SpD

    Psychic
    Thunder Wave/Icy Wind
    Trick Room
    Rest

    Stops opposing sweepers, and can reverse Trick Room. Icy Wind might not make some things slow enough that all your other mons could outrun them, and Clorophyll abusers might not mind unless they were hit by 2 Icy Winds. Thunder Wave only hits one but lowers speed far more. General bulk makes Rest very worthwhile to stay around and keep supporting. 4 SpAtk EVs allow for a likelier KO on HTop, they wouldn't make a big difference in Speed or Defense.
  10. Cassie

    Cassie giant claw

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2010
    Messages:
    503
    While I agree with the above posts, I'd suggest Sableye. Your team seems to work fine if it's gotten Top 3, so you probably just need a bit of support to handle these threats.

    Sableye (F) @ Sitrus Berry / Lagging Tail (if you decide on Trick Sableye) Trait: Prankster
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SDef
    Careful Nature (+SDef, -SAtk)
    - Sunny Day
    - Taunt
    - Fake Out / Trick
    -Will-O-Wisp

    You could probably find a better variation, seeing as you know the team much better than I do.



    This is if you're looking to change up your team of course, otherwise great RMT thread!
  11. Dimsun

    Dimsun
    is a VGC 2012 Seniors World Champion

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2010
    Messages:
    259
    I like this set :) Most of the teams I build have no issues with sand or goodstuff though. Honestly, those two are no threat. In terms of Sun? Yeah, that was identified almost before I started laddering as a problem, especially if the sun setter Ninetales is carrying HP Ice.


    Again, a very good supporter that I will probably try out.,
  12. LPFan

    LPFan

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2011
    Messages:
    317
    I totally agree with this. Sableye/Volcanrona lead is a good pair, I've seen Japs use it online, works really well. Really great anti-weather synergy here.
  13. MavsObbession

    MavsObbession

    Joined:
    May 8, 2011
    Messages:
    299
    I was gonna give you the solution, but these awesome VGC battlers already helped you. :)

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