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VGC 2014 Viability Rankings v2

Discussion in 'VGC' started by tennisace, May 25, 2014.

  1. tennisace

    tennisace Proximity to power deludes some into thinking they wield it.
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    [​IMG] VGC Viability Ranking Thread
    Welcome to the official VGC Viability Rankings topic. In this thread, we as a community will rank every single usable Pokemon into "tiers." In this thread, you're encouraged to post your thoughts and opinions on the various Pokemon that are usable in VGC and what tier they should fall under.

    The general idea of the topic is to rank each VGC pokemon under "rankings" that go in descending order. Since this is a general tier list, everything is lumped together. There won't be any segregation between offense / defense / support threats. Make sure you take into account the support each Pokemon provides to both the team as a whole and whichever teammate it is immediately on the field with, in addition to how well it deals with opposing threats.

    S-Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that perform well on any team, regardless of the opponent's team. Your team will almost always be better if you use one of these Pokemon. You should bring them to almost every match, unless the opponent is completely counter-teaming them.

    [​IMG] Aegislash
    [​IMG] Garchomp
    [​IMG] Kangaskhan (Mega)
    [​IMG] Rotom-H
    [​IMG] Rotom-W
    [​IMG] Salamence

    A-Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that perform well on most every team. They can be counter-teamed easier than the Pokemon in S-rank, but still provide crucial support or offensive presence that other Pokemon cannot. You should bring them to most every match, unless the opponent is over-prepared.

    [​IMG] Amoonguss
    [​IMG] Azumarill
    [​IMG] Charizard (Mega Y)
    [​IMG] Gardevoir
    [​IMG] Mawile (Mega)
    [​IMG] Tyranitar
    [​IMG] Tyranitar (Mega)
    [​IMG] Venusaur (Mega)

    B-Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that perform well on many different teams. These Pokemon are best served as "glue" Pokemon, where they either are supported by other Pokemon or support specific teammates. They are easier for an opponent to handle by using higher-ranked Pokemon, but are still good choices to bring in most matchups.

    [​IMG] Aerodactyl
    [​IMG] Bisharp
    [​IMG] Chandelure
    [​IMG] Charizard (Mega X)
    [​IMG] Ferrothorn
    [​IMG] Gengar (Mega)
    [​IMG] Goodra
    [​IMG] Gyarados
    [​IMG] Gyarados (Mega)
    [​IMG] Hydreigon
    [​IMG] Mamoswine
    [​IMG] Manectric (Mega)
    [​IMG] Meowstic-M
    [​IMG] Lucario (Mega)
    [​IMG] Ludicolo
    [​IMG] Politoed
    [​IMG] Scizor
    [​IMG] Smeargle
    [​IMG] Talonflame

    C-Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that can be effective given a certain situation but otherwise will fall behind compared to higher ranked Pokemon. These Pokemon work well if you can execute your own strategy, but sometimes lose momentum for your team if your opponent has good answers to them. These would be considered "tech" options, where you add them as the 4th/5th/6th option on a team and bring them to some matches.

    [​IMG] Abomasnow (Mega)
    [​IMG] Aromatisse
    [​IMG] Chesnaught
    [​IMG] Conkeldurr
    [​IMG] Escavalier
    [​IMG] Florges
    [​IMG] Gardevoir (Mega)
    [​IMG] Gengar
    [​IMG] Gothitelle
    [​IMG] Gourgeist-Huge
    [​IMG] Kingdra
    [​IMG] Klefki
    [​IMG] Lucario
    [​IMG] Machamp
    [​IMG] Mienshao
    [​IMG] Noivern
    [​IMG] Pinsir (Mega)
    [​IMG] Pyroar
    [​IMG] Raichu
    [​IMG] Reuniclus
    [​IMG] Sableye
    [​IMG] Scrafty
    [​IMG] Staraptor
    [​IMG] Trevenant
    [​IMG] Venusaur
    [​IMG] Wigglytuff

    D-Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are gimmicky and may have some strategy that will succeed a very small percentage of the time. These Pokemon have a smaller role but are outclassed and require more support than is practical many times. They can throw the opponent off-guard sometimes, but they are prepared for by just preparing for other larger threats.

    [​IMG] Ampharos (Mega)
    [​IMG] Banette (Mega)
    [​IMG] Delphox
    [​IMG] Espeon
    [​IMG] Heracross (Mega)
    [​IMG] Houndoom (Mega)
    [​IMG] Greninja
    [​IMG] Murkrow
    [​IMG] Pachirisu
    [​IMG] Rhydon
    [​IMG] Vivillon
    (Most weather/Trick Room dependent mons go here)

    E-Rank: Dont even bother unless you just want to have fun and you have a favorite Pokemon here. In other words, there is next to no chance this thing will carry its weight.

    [​IMG] Meowstic-F

    Gonna add pictures later. I consulted with a few VGC players and also looked at the teams of people who top cut regionals / european nationals. The reason there are a bunch of Mega Pokemon in D is because you really really really should be using the Mega Pokemon in S/A rank as your primary and A/B as your secondary (if necessary).
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2014
  2. TheMantyke

    TheMantyke slow
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    Cool to see this thread reposted in some really solid quality. Sorry I couldn't get to you on irc to give you the okay for this earlier. Nothing really jumps out at me at the moment except for maybe Meowstic-F I guess as the lone E tier. Haven't used it at all myself but Fake Out + Competitive doesn't sound entirely awful in theory. Is it really that bad in practice?
    tennisace likes this.
  3. tennisace

    tennisace Proximity to power deludes some into thinking they wield it.
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    I threw it in E-tier because Meowstic-M is so much better and they share a dex number so you can't use them both. It's frail, weak, and outclassed by basically any other special attacker, and if you want it to be remotely useful you need to bank on your opponent using Intimidate vs it.
  4. Hollywood

    Hollywood she's thin, she's blonde, she says "wow" a lot
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    I added sprites to this because I was bored and because I really like pretty things.
  5. Darkmalice

    Darkmalice Like a facepalm, but better
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    Ludicolo for B rank.

    It's the rain sweeper of choice for this VGC '14, dethroning Kingdra from last season (and seems to be associated with greater success from the teams I've seen). Assault Vest version is surprising difficult to take down without taking a hard hit in return thanks to its great coverage and few weaknesses. FO support is nifty too, with the fastest FO under rain. Yes it's Talonflame weak, but Politoed checks it for it.

    There have also been accounts of successful use of Ludicolo outside rain, as even without rain it still checks some notable Pokemon like both Rotom-W, Rotom-H (especially the Rotoms), Salamence, and Garchomp.
    Chenkovsky and Level 51 like this.
  6. Chipndip

    Chipndip

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    Greninja for at least C rank:

    D is too harsh on the thing. It's one of the fastest pokemon in the format, it's the ultimate dragon slayer, and it can go ahead and be a mixed set for stomping Talonflame and Char-Y, or use Extrasensory on Mienshao and Venusaur, or whatever your team needs that it can learn. What it lacks in raw damage and support moves, it makes up for in versatility. It's not "glue". It's tech. How Greninja is used effectively literally fits your description for the C tier. Not sure why it isn't there.

    I guess I can live with Mega Gardevoir being C, based on the new, clearer descriptions. By these standards, C is fair. But with that said...

    Mega Char X for C rank:

    Mega Char X's main advantage is that Char Y is popular and it isn't. If you know the opponent's packing Char X, and you don't give them breathing room to use D. Dance (I mean, who would?), it's already a done deal. His defenses on the special side get no improvement, and the meta's shifting towards special attackers, so that's no fun either. Much like Mega Gardevoir, if you build your team with him in mind, you can make it shine, but it's not a "glue" sort of pokemon. It relies too much on setups and hoping its cover doesn't get blown before it gets off a D. Dance or SafeSwag or whatever. Too much. Also, it tends to body itself via Flare Blitz. >_>
    Eeyore likes this.
  7. ProjectTitan313

    ProjectTitan313

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    Where's Granbull? :P
    I think 120 Attack, very nasty coverage in the form of Play Rough / Close Combat / Crunch / Filler (with more than a few physical options like Wild Charge, Earthquake, Rock Slide, Stone Edge, and Fire Fang), Intimidate, and pure Fairy typing can at least be somehat useful. Speed is garbage and Sp. Def is somewhere between shit and bad, but 90 HP with Intimidate and an Assault Vest is good at supporting and taking a hit. And unlike Wigglytuff it doesn't need your opponent to boost it in order to actually kill something. But unlike Wigglytuff, the massive spamming of Intimidate and WoW means it isn't getting far.

    tl;dr:
    Pros:
    - Hits pretty hard, combined with perfect coverage.
    - Fairy type with Intimidate to cover all of your Garchomp and Fighting type needs.
    - Its slower than Aegislash, baits it like no other, and dickishly KOs with Crunch after tanking a Flash Cannon.
    - I guess it'd be the best user of Rattled if it had Speed to start with?
    - With Intimidate and an Assault Vest its surprisingly hard to OHKO it and its probably going to maim something.

    Cons:
    - 45 Speed is sloooooow
    - Its really easy to smash it if you aren't Intimidated. Or it drops defenses with Close Combat. Or if you use Knock Off on it.
    - Sp. Def is useless without an Assault Vest. Even then it just takes *2* hits to KO it instead of 1.
    - Play Rough from 252+ Granbull vs 4/0 Garchomp is exactly 50% chance to OHKO. Coin flips are bad.
    - CC does not OHKO 4/0 Mega Khan. At all. 80 - 94.4%
    - "Fuck, they have 3 Intimidate mons and at least 1 with WoW". Wild Charge DOES KO 4/0 Gyarados through Intimidate though.
    - The existence of Azumarill and Mawile.
    - Main moves make contact, which is bad considering Garchomp, Ferrothorn, and King's Shield.

    Its a D, totally a D. It makes you feel so manly to use it but you'd have to be me nuts to use it.
    Its better than Meowstic-F though, at least this can KO something.
    victin1rox likes this.
  8. tennisace

    tennisace Proximity to power deludes some into thinking they wield it.
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    RE: Ludicolo

    Haven't played with it, but it sounds more like a C-rank Pokemon to me in that to be truly effective it needs rain.

    RE: Greninja

    You didn't even mention the only selling point of Greninja over various other special attackers: Mat Block. Even then, Greninja is frail, lacks good spread attacks, and has a severe moveslot crunch when you have to decide between Surf / Hydro Pump / Ice Beam / Hidden Power w/e / Extrasensory / Dark Pulse / whatever other stuff it gets idr. It's really meh compared to things like Mega Manectric / Charizard Y / even Raichu, since all those Pokemon are fast special attackers that can also support the team consistently beyond straight attacking.

    RE: Mega Charizard X

    It has excellent typing, hits hard, and can support the team with Will-o-Wisp in addition to the standard Dragon Dance schtick. Yes, part of its value comes about because Mega Charizard Y is far more popular, but it's still stupidly powerful on its own. Also, you seem to be following my tier guidelines too literally: not everything in B-rank is "glue", not everything in C-rank is "tech". It's just that in general, Pokemon in B-rank are more solid all-around than Pokemon in C-rank, which are more one-dimensional.

    RE: Granbull

    There's a note in D-rank that says "most weather/TR dependent Pokemon go here", and Granbull falls squarely under that designation.
  9. Chipndip

    Chipndip

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    For Greninja, I didn't mention Mat Block because it's garbage in this meta. Every Fake Out and priority move preys on Greninja wasting a slot for that move. It lacks good spread, but most pokes do and most spread moves don't OHKO when ya need them to without choice items or squishy targets. Manectric and Char Y primarily support the team through attacking anyway, and Raichu...fair enough. Still, there's really no way to put Greninja at D with how versatile its move pool is. Its main focus is to identify what you need on your offense, and plop itself in that space. One-dimensional, tech, etc. and so forth, it still fits the C-Rank description.


    As for Char X, it's stupidly powerful, but it's also stupidly unreliable if they know it's a Char X. Flare Blitz blows itself up, and Wisp support is a gimmick at best. There's a good reason why Char X is so uncommon, and that's pretty much the primary thing vouching for it: It looks like a Char Y until it runs into you. In a 2/3 setting, or in a scenario where you blow your cover without maiming or OHKOing something, I can't see that ending well with Char X.
    shack likes this.
  10. Rosenfeldius

    Rosenfeldius

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    Why is Gardevoir ranked so highly above her mega? She has a more useful ability in this scenario, but the lessened bulk and weaker damage output...

    albeit, it doesn't take up the mega slot, but I think the gap between those two should be narrowed. Gardevoir shouldn't be in the same tier as Amoonguss and Mega Mawile, and Mega Gardevoir shouldn't be in the same tier as WIGGLYTUFF, my goodness.
  11. bwebber

    bwebber

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    Why not? Mega Gardevoir's calling card is Hyper Voice, which it doesn't have in this format.
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  12. Chipndip

    Chipndip

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    Mega Gardevoir can stay C until next season, but I think Gardevoir should be a B. It's too physically frail when it's a sweeper, and it's too wimpy and slow when it's support. There's always something lacking with Gardevoir that keeps it from feeling like a complete poke, unlike other A ranks.
  13. Darkmalice

    Darkmalice Like a facepalm, but better
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    Just to clarify:

    C rank description: Reserved for Pokemon that can be effective given a certain situation but otherwise will fall behind compared to higher ranked Pokemon.

    Does this mean that all weather sweepers will end up in C rank max? I've noticed that Kingdra and Venasaur are in C rank, and I was very surprised about Ven not being in B rank, as it pairs very solidly with Mega Zard Y, and the checks to Ven + Mega Zard Y can be easily identified on team preview (Garchomp, Talonflame) and counter teamed accordingly.

    Also Mega Scizor should be in B rank. It's kinda like what Mega Tar is to Tyranitar, a better version of it if you don't need another Mega. I know that Mega Tar allows you to reset Sandstream, but Mega Scizor really does appreciate the stats boosts. It's better than Scizor, but it's main problem is opportunity cost of the mega slot which really limits its use, not the fact that it is ineffective - it is better than Scizor.

    [EDIT] C rank. I was voting for B rank due to precedent, however, I think the opportunity cost in using the Mega Stone is actually enough to drop Mega Scizor down to C rank.

    [EDIT] I also support Greninja moving up to C rank. Fast and hits hard, and can check some very notable Pokemon like Garchomp, Rotom-H, and Aegislash. Whilst it's frail, it can be remedied to some extent with Protean e.g. change your type so that Rotom-W doesn't OHKO you with Thunderbolt. It is the only Pokemon in the game that can Mat Block, which can act as a tech depending on your opponent's team and if you can send it in at the right time. It can also run some surprise moves if you need it to take down specific threats, like HP Grass for Rotom-W and Rock Slide or HP Rock for Mega Zard Y.

    Also, Pyroar is currently in C rank, and it doesn't t provide team support (other than offensive support, but Greninja offers that too). At least Greninja has Mat Block, let alone better speed and coverage. It is definitely better than Mega Houndoom in D rank, which doesn't even get an item choice.

    P.S. if you're using Surf or Scald over Hydro Pump Greninja, you're using it wrong.

    [EDIT2} Mega Aerodactyl for B rank alongside normal Aerodactyl as well. Similar case to Mega TTar and Ttar, and Mega Scizor and Scizor. Except it gets an ability that complements Sky Drop too and enough bulk to make it a good upgrade to Aerodactyl. We've heard of the Mega Aero and Hippo combo that wins tournaments.
    Last edited: May 31, 2014
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  14. Chenkovsky

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    The Wisp set isn't particularly gimmicky. Because of Mega Charizard X's typing it can completely wall Pokemon like Rotom-H which are likely to be brought against it predicting the Mega Charizard Y, plus if Flare Blitz's recoil is wearing you down it has Roost. Even on defensive sets Flare Blitz is still pretty much a must, as without investment it can still OHKO Amoonguss. Mega Charizard X is so uncommon because Mega Charizard Y is better than it, *gasp*. Although it being uncommon does help it, for reasons that it is good try its typing, its ability, its base stats. However, you make it seem like the only reason to use it is it's uncommon so people don't prepare for it and then make it seem like a bad thing. Yes, it has flaws that is why it is B Rank.
    This I feel describes Mega Charizard X quite nicely.
  15. klvkboom

    klvkboom

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    Mega TTar: B rank. As much as a powerhouse this Poke is, he has more issues when compared to other Megas. Since his most common variants are DD I'll mainly talk about this particular spread. The set requires a ton of support to be effective (Fake Out, redirection) since TTar is incredibly prone to being Burned, after which he would essentially be just a flinch bot. His STABs are easily hard countered as they don't have the best synergy. Crunch and Rock Slide have heavy issues with Fighting types. More importantly, MMawile is a prominent threat to TTar, as MMaw can easily wall and sit through TTar's common teammates (i.e. Amoonguss) and do work. since he's a set-up sweeper, you will definitely be sitting through Intimidates as you try and boost. What Mega TTar does have going for him is his bulk as he can boost through the strongest of attackers, but as a "sweeper" it's pretty hard to get set up, not to mention your plays are really easily read. Also, for a more offensive variant I would say normal TTar with Lum or Weakness Policy is stronger.

    Mega Venusaur: A rank. MVenu has really came out as one of the most bulkiest Pokes this generation. Aside from the "big 3" (Kang, Maw, ZardY), I strongly believe Mega Venusaur is the next contending Poke as the strongest Mega in VGC. MVenu is essentially just a checkmate, much as Aegislash, Ferrothorn, and Gourgeist can be win conditions. However, they all are checkmates against different compositions, which is why they all differ from one another. MVenu is a threat because he walls many of the common cores in today's meta. Grass/Fire/Water, Rain, Fairy/Steel/Dragon (to an extent), these are a few cores where MVenu has very little trouble dealing with. It should also be mentioned that many teams have limited ways to beat MVenu, which means it's generally easy to achieve your win condition. That being said, being a tanky Mega means you're going for a slower game, which is not really the current nature of VGC. Many teams incorporate MVenu as part of a 2 Mega team, so that you have an option to play aggressive or take the game slow.

    Gengar: B rank. I'm pretty sure Markus Stadter can vouch for this, since he did go undefeated at his nationals with a support Gengar. Also a player (i think his name was See Miruo) won the Asia Cup with the same support set quite some time ago. Support Gengar has no issues getting the job done. A fast WoW, a fast Taunt, immunity to Fake Out, this Poke is really good at being anti-metagame. Gengar's greatest strength over other supports is the ability to outspeed opposing Kangaskhans and hit them with a WoW, effectively neutering them before they get any move on your team. Taunt allows you to beat many forms of set-up and status, including Trick Room, Leech Seed, WoW, Prankster users, ect. Of course, Gengar is still strong on the offensive side as well. Shadow Ball is still very respectable damage to almost every Poke, and his speed allows him to get those hits in. Sludge Bomb is also particularly useful since it can deal with Azumarill but it's not necessarily needed.

    Scrafty: B rank. Scrafty is the glue that keeps many compositions together and I think he should be ranked as such. He's an amazing pivot with his bulk, Intimidate, and Fake out. A respectable form of healing in Drain Punch is also nice, and with this he poses a huge threats against some Pokes as they are essentially "healing fodder" for Scrafty.
  16. shack

    shack

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    I feel that Espeon and Chesnaught might be C rank

    Espeon it self counters Smeargle, Prankster users, Status inducers and I personally tend to wall Amoonguss and Venusaur with it. Speedy Charm is also good at slowing down Mega Kang/Maw who think they can Sucker Punch you into oblivion. Yawn is also pretty deadly once you knocked out the first 2 pokemon.
    Obvious weakness' are hard hitting priority moves, Dark, and Ghost moves.

    Chesnaught is pretty much a direct counter to Aegislash, Tyranitar, Mega Kang, Rotom-W, Bisharp, and Azumarill. None of the above can OHKO it, but it can OHKO them in return (besides Aegislash) and even out speeds a few. It also walls Amoongus, Ferrothorn and Venusaur. It also does well against most water types and Steels.
    Where it falls short is it's slow speed and being hit by STAB Fire attacks, Flying attacks, and Playroughs.
  17. SoulRed12

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    Murkrow for B Rank: Haven't been playing VGC for too long so go easy on me if I'm missing something big, but I think Murkrow fits this definition as a supporter of others, or if not then at least the C rank definition. I was surprised to see it not ranked yet. With Eviolite and defensive investment (since the only move Murkrow should ever be using if it wants to attack is Foul Play) it becomes surprisingly bulky for such low defensive base stats:

    252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Murkrow: 190-226 (58.6 - 69.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    It also has one really useful option that literally nothing else gets: Prankster Quash.

    Quash is immensely helpful, especially first turn, because it lets you lead with slower powerhouses and be able to take down faster threats or those with priority. For example: Quash a Mega Charizard Y so Adamant MegaKhan can OHKO with Return; Quash a Garchomp so Adamant Mega Charizard X can hit it with Dragon Claw or Goodra can hit it with Dragon Pulse; Quash a scarf Smeargle so Murkrow's teammate can KO it before anything can be dark voided; Quash slower priority moves like 0 Speed Azumarill's Aqua Jet, allowing a weakened Charizard Y to potentially KO it with Solar Beam, or Mega Mawile's Sucker Punch allowing a weakened Mamo to hit with EQ; or Quash physical attackers like Garchomp so something like Rotom-W can burn it before it has a chance to attack. It also lets pokemon run Modest or Adamant without worrying quite as much about the drop in speed. Or Murkrow can quash things that threaten it specifically, so they can be removed before having a chance to hit Murkrow, and then Murkrow can stick around longer.

    Murkrow also gets lots of other non-exclusive options, such as priority tailwind, feather dance, taunt, and STAB foul play, all of which let it play a great supporting role in teams.
  18. WreckDra

    WreckDra

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    It's nice to see this revamped ^_^

    Anyways, Noivern should definately be ranked somewhere from high C to low B. Specsvern is one of the few pokemon that can OHKO Amoongus with the only drawback, in this regard, being that you want rain to make Hurricane reliable. Specs Draco Meteor is still a Specs Draco Meteor and it alone can nuke quite a bit of the format for over 50% (after sitrus in a lot of cases) not to mention that this is the quickest Specs Meteor as of now. It can also troll Aegislash with Infiltraitor Flamethrower which is always fun. It is a very nice item scout with frisk so random resistance berries (or something unexpected) don't screw you over later. Supportvern is very similar to a Tailwind Aerodactyl that trades supportive offense for direct damage, making it a much better direct check to a lot of pokemon in the format. The problems Noivern faces are hefty teamslot competition (from Mence, Aerodactyl, Hydriegon ect) and it doesn't slot in all that well on most teams because of how specific its advantages over its competition are. It also likes rain support because Hurricane's accuracy is sometimes game changing. It also needs specs in order to pull off an All Out Attacker set properly due to its trolly Special Attack which is a pain since it would very much like to switch moves.
  19. ProjectTitan313

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    Only one I've played with is a supportive one, but anyway, to expand on this a tad: it still has Telepathy, useful for things like Explosion, Surf (notable since it adores Rain), and has a neat point in the fact it can Roost next to an EQ abuser without worry (Aerodactyl and Crobat... not so much). I use it now and again with an Explosion/EQ Golem for example. Obviously, its useless if your team does not use these moves, but I thought I'd throw it out there. :P
    Frisk and Infiltrator have their uses as you've outlined; and I agree with the whole post. Though imo Taunt fucks Aegislash hard enough without Infiltrator; no King's Shield means its slow and squishy. The 4x Ice weakness is nasty, but Roost can help allieviate it a bit at least and it has decent bulk / a fuckton of Speed to do it with. Also buys a Rock neutrality and Electric resist.
  20. tennisace

    tennisace Proximity to power deludes some into thinking they wield it.
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    Changes:

    Ludicolo n/a -> B
    Mega Venusaur B -> A
    Espeon n/a -> D
    Chesnaught D -> C
    Noivern n/a -> C
    Murkrow n/a -> D reasoning: Quash is a gimmick at best and Murkrow is a defensive and offensive liability.
  21. Chipndip

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    You're understating just how valuable the element of surprise is when it comes to Pokemon. Remember Ramos's Mega Mawile spread? Or his Wigglytuff? The M. Mawile may be a bit more solid, but Wigglytuff literally came and went with the wind. However, no one saw it coming, and he won a regional with it. Now, is Wigglytuff all that amazing? No. It's a gimmick no one saw coming. The element of surprise, in a game where the meta defines so much about competitive play and how we players go about playing in it, is one of the BEST advantages you can have in this game, outside of basic fundamentals like solid team foundations and what-not.

    With that said, that's what Char X is: A relatively decent mega option that feeds off of people's assumption that it's a Char Y until it turns out that it's black and blue and burning all over. Preparing to take down Char Y actually hinders the Char X match-up since it gains a good deal of physical bulk + it's not 4X weak to Rock, which is probably what you'll throw at it unless you know it's a Char X, in which case you'd prefer Dragon-type moves (preferably Draco Meteor).

    Without the surprise factor, Char X wouldn't even be a thing. And yes, I make it seem like the main draw of Char X is surprise factor because that IS the main draw of Char X. It's riding into B rank primarily off of a meta-related reason, rather than the merits of its own abilities.
  22. SoulRed12

    SoulRed12

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2009
    Messages:
    726
    I strongly disagree with you, sir. Murkrow is no more of a defensive liability than Meowstic:

    252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Murkrow: 211-249 (65.1 - 76.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Meowstic: 229-270 (65 - 76.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    Plus, Murkrow gets Feather Dance just like Meowstic gets Charm.

    It's also no more of an offensive liability because at least Murkrow can run Foul Play, and Tailwind to support team mates.

    Quash is much more than a gimmick. I already explained why in my previous post. Changing the order of pokemon and invalidating priority (including making Sucker Punch fail) can be invaluable, especially for first-turn momentum, and literally nothing does prankster quash better than Murkrow (because nothing else even gets Prankster Quash).
    Pyritie likes this.
  23. gamer boy

    gamer boy

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2013
    Messages:
    810
    Right. These are my proposed changes:

    Up
    • Talonflame --> A - Talonflame is amazing. It can provide valuable support with options such as Quick Guard and prioroty Tailwind. It is no slouch offensively either despite its underwhealming base 80 (if my memory serves me) attack stat due to Gale Wings. This gives it prioroty on Brave Bird, making it a vicious attacker. The reason that it is not S-rank is due to that crippling 4x rock weakness and its very slightly lacking attack stat.
    • Manectric --> A - Mega Manectric is one of the best special attackers in the format. With access to Lightningrod prior to mega evolution and Intimidate post mega evolution, Mega Manectric can become a powerful special attacker and has decent bulk due to Intimidate. Electric is great offensive typing and above average defensively, boasting only one weakness, and it has access to great coverage options in Flamethrower, Overheat, Snarl, Hidden Power Ice and is a great momentum-grabber in Volt Switch, enabling it to easily get off multiple Intimidates throughout the match. The final cherry on the cake is that it has great offensive stats in 135 SpA / 135 Spe.
    • Venusaur --> A - Venusaur is a great Chlorophyll abuser. It has access to Sleep Powder, Giga Drain and other such moves which make it work increadibly well in a core with Mega Charizard Y - we've all seen this one before: a terrifying, sleep-spreading, damage dealing core that has been infamous since the beginning of the metagame. It has had such a profound effect on the format that it has actually had an influence on one of our current S-Rank pokemon's sets: Rotom-H. Rotom-H all used such classics as Choice Specs and Choice Scarf at the beginning of the meta, and then people looked at its typing and saw that it was the perfect check for this core, but with one flaw: It wasn't immune to Sleep Powder. Generation 6 introduced the Safety Goggles, and people started putting it on Rotom-H just to deal with this core. That is how Venusaur has influenced the metagame, and it is no shock that people often choose to run it over its mega evolution.
    • Mienshao --> B - Mienshao is, simply put, an offensive supporter. With access to all three of Wide Guard, Quick Guard and Fake Out and access to Inner Focus, Mienshao became something that was unpredictable in what moves it runs. Its high speed gives it a remarkable offensive presence, but it is very frail - making its job as supporter that much harder.
    Down
    • Mega Lucario --> C - Mega Lucario is usable, but not something you want to have as your first choice for a team. It doesn't do much that isn't done better by stuff like Mienshao or Conkelldurr outside of full-on special sets, which are simply outclassed by stuff with better special attacking stats on its un-STAB'd moves.
    • Azumarill --> B - Azumarill is above average, but it is in no way an A rank. It struggles to keep up with Mega Mawile as a physically-offensive Fairy-type with Huge Power, who has access to stronger prioroty, a higher attack stat and better defensive typing, as well as Intimidate prior to mega evolution.
    • Wigglytuff --> D - Why was this up at C? It is a gimmick at best. While it does take good advantage of Intimidate, if it is in after Intimidate's effects it does... well... nothing.
    New Additions
    • Lanturn --> D+/C- - Lanturn has a small niche in Soak, which gives it a way to aid teams which rely on Electric- and Grass-type moves to hit stuff like Garchomp and Rotom-H harder than they could otherwise. This has lead to the creation of Choice Scarf Lanturn (on a top cut team). It also resists Bolt Beam and can absorb either Electric- or Water-type moves, depending on the ability. However, its uses in VGC stop there. With the Ground- and Grass-type moves being everywhere, it simply leaves you easily taken down.
    • Rhyperior --> D - Rhyperior is overshadowed by its pre-evolution, Rhyhorn, who has better bulk without needing to use Solid Rock, making it the premier Lighningrod supporter. However, what Rhyperior has over it is better offensive presence. This gives it a niche as a Trick Room attacker. Solid Rock lets it take super effective hits better and it has STAB on the SlideQuake combination.
    • Mawile --> D - Mawile has a niche in bluffing Mega Mawile, but it doesn't do much else other than Intimidate.
    • Manectric --> D+/C- - Manectric has more offensive presence than Mawile and access to Lightningrod. It can bluff Mega, but it is generally outshined by other things.
    Karxrida likes this.
  24. bwebber

    bwebber

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2010
    Messages:
    379
    Talonflame honestly isn't very good. It's better in singles because it's easier to pick and choose your matchups there (Talonflame is really good against offensive Pokemon, but also really bad against defensive ones), but in doubles, everything is bulkier, and it's reliance on LO/Band either further depletes its survivability or makes it susceptible to double targeting (it's especially bad against Fake Out). Not to mention VGC is more centralized towards Talonflame counters like Rotom, Tyranitar, Salamence, and Garchomp. Talonflame hits hard, but not so hard that things can't be EVd to take its hits, and it already has paper thin defenses on top of it constantly damaging itself.

    As for Mega Lucario, it's nothing like Mienshao or Conkeldurr (the latter of which kinda sorta sucks in the format). Mienshao is more of a supporter while Luc is an offensive powerhouse with superb coverage. It faces a lot of the same problems as Talonflame, but it should definitely stay as B because nothing in the format can check Kangaskhan like Lucario can.
  25. Chipndip

    Chipndip

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2014
    Messages:
    63
    Talonflame's a solid B. It eats everything that isn't prepared for it, but those that are make this thing a waste of space.

    Mega Lucario should be a B as well imo. It functions much like Talonflame, but instead of gradually draining your own HP, you just have it all go poof as soon as you eventually get hit.

    Mienshao can stay a C. I run one, but I don't think it's B material. It needs too much to be a complete poke on its own between Fake Out, guards, Knock Off to hit ghosts, and Rock Slide to hit Flying-types. If the game allowed for 5-6 moves per poke, then it'd be a B, but then again, some pokes would be blatantly op too so...

    I still find it daffy that Greninja isn't C yet. Even if Char X remains B, it'd be pretty whack to leave Greninja at D. Can one really say that Greninja is as viable as a Delphox? With me running multiple Greninja, one of which being on a team with a Delphox in it too, I can assure you that Greninja is much more handy.

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