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VGC 2014 Viability Rankings v2
- Thread starter tennisace
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Pachirisu has an alright support movepool, with Follow Me, Super Fang, Rain Dance, Thunder Wave. Follow Me is the main draw though.
I think that this needs to be reworked a good bit. Nothing should be S besides Kangaskhan, it stands above everything else as the best mon in VGC. With the help of kingofmars and Sixonesix https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/14d21sRDg8Uj1yJuj9lFwijitbOxRU7Ozhbce0jRp3ds/edit#gid=0
The color groupings fit to the S, A, B, C mold.
Raise Hydreigon to A (amazing typing + move pool)
Drop Zard-Y to B (not as good as it was when tier started people run rotom-w with hp rock (lol) but really everyone is prepared for it now)
Raise Pachirisu to B (just saw recent discussion this thing is actually good with good typing + follow me is amazing)
Drop Smeargle to C (really predictable its just going to be scarf dark void, fake out and lum berry)
Move Talonflame to A (why was this lower haha priority brave bird + never seen rocks in VGC = too good) have it above zard-y cause it doesn't waste the mega also completely different mons
Move Aromatisse to D or E (this thing is bad you need your TR setter to apply offensive pressure, rotom-w sits on it and uses WoW until it burns mega mawile, Aroma Veil doesn't have enough of a niche because few things even run taunt)
Move Pyroar to D (overhyped, people expect hp ice now)
Move regular Gengar to B (its good great move pool can burn kangas, suffers from 4mss which is why its not A, its got taunt too)
Drop Mega Garde completely (this thing is bad no reason to use it over scarf regular garde or over another mega)
Drop Conkeldurr to D or E (its really bad it was only good last ten for Hammer Arm non Guts it does nothing in this format though)
Finally, as I previously mentioned (i think lol) drop everything thats not Mega Kanga to A
The color groupings fit to the S, A, B, C mold.
Raise Hydreigon to A (amazing typing + move pool)
Drop Zard-Y to B (not as good as it was when tier started people run rotom-w with hp rock (lol) but really everyone is prepared for it now)
Raise Pachirisu to B (just saw recent discussion this thing is actually good with good typing + follow me is amazing)
Drop Smeargle to C (really predictable its just going to be scarf dark void, fake out and lum berry)
Move Talonflame to A (why was this lower haha priority brave bird + never seen rocks in VGC = too good) have it above zard-y cause it doesn't waste the mega also completely different mons
Move Aromatisse to D or E (this thing is bad you need your TR setter to apply offensive pressure, rotom-w sits on it and uses WoW until it burns mega mawile, Aroma Veil doesn't have enough of a niche because few things even run taunt)
Move Pyroar to D (overhyped, people expect hp ice now)
Move regular Gengar to B (its good great move pool can burn kangas, suffers from 4mss which is why its not A, its got taunt too)
Drop Mega Garde completely (this thing is bad no reason to use it over scarf regular garde or over another mega)
Drop Conkeldurr to D or E (its really bad it was only good last ten for Hammer Arm non Guts it does nothing in this format though)
Finally, as I previously mentioned (i think lol) drop everything thats not Mega Kanga to A
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As much as I agree with MKang being a defining VGC Poke, this tiering is not based on which is the best, but by definition of a good Poke in general. tennisace has done a respectably good job on tiering VGC pokes particularly for the S and A ranks. And it makes a lot of sense. For S-ranks, by their definition you should pick them in almost all of your games. They have little drawbacks, and are naturally hard to overcome. The presence of MKang doesn't make any of these Pokes less viable either.
Wondering about a ranking for Exadrill. Can it function well in the current format without Iron Head and Magnet Rise? Ttar seems pretty common to set up the sand for it if you use Rush or Force, and Mold Breaker is a good option to hit all those annoying Rotom Heat and Wash.
Excadrill isn't legal in the format.
Yeah I realized that while looking through the dex, what a shame.
In hope of sparking some form of discussion, I'll add a nomination.
Aerodactyl: A rank. I consider Aerodactyl something of a "suicide support", something akin to suicide leads of OU, but in a VGC format their strengths are prominent in different ways. Their concepts are simple: to provide support as well as respectable damage and consistent pressure. They're squishy by nature, but this could potentially allow offensive teams to utilize a free switch in as these Pokes get KO'd. They differ from true supports in that they're not shut down by Taunt, and their damage and pressure mean that they will always have some form of presence on the field. As fragile as they are, they will cause a lot of problems if kept alive.
Aerodactyl fits this perfectly. His supportive movepool, although somewhat small, is enough to make him unique and effective. Tailwind, Wide Guard, Taunt, and Sky Drop are the main utility moves you'll find on Aero. Very little Pokemon have access to these combinations of moves, and it's arguable some do it better than him.
Offensively he's not looking that bad, and interestingly enough you only need 1 move: Rock Slide. Coming off of 105 base attack, along with STAB, Rock Slide is doing some respectable damage to whoever it hits. And who said you have to use it for damage? 30% flinch on its own is inherently powerful and will definitely give you some good random advantages early game when you're not reliant on the flinch. For other attack options though, you do have Sky Drop and Ice Fang (which can OHKO Garchomp when using LO).
What solidifies Aero's strengths though is his speed. 130 base is definitely on the higher end, and Aero often has the advantage from the attack order. It allows him to throw Tailwind and Taunt out easily, but more importantly allows you to abuse Rock Slide flinching to a maximum. The speed along with the chance of flinch will always force your opponent to play conservatively around Aero, fearing they'd be left open after a hit. The hax factor will almost always be on your side. Even if Aero is on his last sliver of HP, he has no worries about using Rock Slide in order to fish for more flinches and buy more time.
I think what makes suicide supports work though is the use of Focus Sash, forcing the need of 2 hits in order to KO the Poke. Many squishy Pokemon can utilize the item, and it allows them to play incredibly aggressive with that sort of insurance policy. Aero uses the item incredibly well. Since many of his attacks can essentially buy him free turns (i.e. Taunt, Sky Drop, Rock Slide flinch, and the obligatory Protect), Focus Sash can make you harder to get rid of. For these reasons, I'd like to nominate Aerodactyl for A rank because of his incredible pressure for a support Pokemon.
Aerodactyl: A rank. I consider Aerodactyl something of a "suicide support", something akin to suicide leads of OU, but in a VGC format their strengths are prominent in different ways. Their concepts are simple: to provide support as well as respectable damage and consistent pressure. They're squishy by nature, but this could potentially allow offensive teams to utilize a free switch in as these Pokes get KO'd. They differ from true supports in that they're not shut down by Taunt, and their damage and pressure mean that they will always have some form of presence on the field. As fragile as they are, they will cause a lot of problems if kept alive.
Aerodactyl fits this perfectly. His supportive movepool, although somewhat small, is enough to make him unique and effective. Tailwind, Wide Guard, Taunt, and Sky Drop are the main utility moves you'll find on Aero. Very little Pokemon have access to these combinations of moves, and it's arguable some do it better than him.
Offensively he's not looking that bad, and interestingly enough you only need 1 move: Rock Slide. Coming off of 105 base attack, along with STAB, Rock Slide is doing some respectable damage to whoever it hits. And who said you have to use it for damage? 30% flinch on its own is inherently powerful and will definitely give you some good random advantages early game when you're not reliant on the flinch. For other attack options though, you do have Sky Drop and Ice Fang (which can OHKO Garchomp when using LO).
What solidifies Aero's strengths though is his speed. 130 base is definitely on the higher end, and Aero often has the advantage from the attack order. It allows him to throw Tailwind and Taunt out easily, but more importantly allows you to abuse Rock Slide flinching to a maximum. The speed along with the chance of flinch will always force your opponent to play conservatively around Aero, fearing they'd be left open after a hit. The hax factor will almost always be on your side. Even if Aero is on his last sliver of HP, he has no worries about using Rock Slide in order to fish for more flinches and buy more time.
I think what makes suicide supports work though is the use of Focus Sash, forcing the need of 2 hits in order to KO the Poke. Many squishy Pokemon can utilize the item, and it allows them to play incredibly aggressive with that sort of insurance policy. Aero uses the item incredibly well. Since many of his attacks can essentially buy him free turns (i.e. Taunt, Sky Drop, Rock Slide flinch, and the obligatory Protect), Focus Sash can make you harder to get rid of. For these reasons, I'd like to nominate Aerodactyl for A rank because of his incredible pressure for a support Pokemon.
Hydreigon - Yea, A is pushy. Out of Chomp/Mence/Hydra, Hydra is the worst one. If it's A, it's an A-
Pachirisu - Gimmick. B's are not gimmicks.
Smeargle - This thing does way too much to the whole meta-game to be a C. Don't underestimate it just because we've already shifted the meta to cover it more. B is fitting for Smeargle.
Talonflame - A or B is good. It rips holes through everything. Even if you do prepare for it, it's gonna do good damage to things that probably don't want to be "good damaged". >_>
Pyroar - Agreed with D.
Gengar - Agreed with B.
-Mega Gardevoir - Yea...no. It doesn't do great against the main megas in the meta, but if built properly, it's far better than you give credit for. Most people build into its speed. It's much more optimal to build into its bulk, which no one does, which fuels peoples' notion of it being bad.
Conkeldurr - Agreed.
As a separate post: Aerodactyl...eh...I want to agree with that. Sure, the damage is sub-par in most cases, but Tailwind's a blessing, Wide Guard is cool, and throwing Rock Slides before anyone can move can break your opponent's chances from the jump. To boot, you can't lead Charizard or Talonflame if it's around. However, there's a good deal of things that make it much less useful/much more short-lived. Overall, though, Aerodactyl brings about a good deal of possibilities that are tough to beat, because the annoying flinch chances from Rock Slide are almost as threatening as the bruisers you find it supporting. Aero for a low-lying A.
I also thought Pyroar was overhyped, but the more I got to using it, the more I realized that it's more than a cheap gimmick.
Here are some of the most common things people use to beat Kangaskhan:
- Ghosts (Aegislash, Trevenant, Gourgeist)
- Intimidate (Salamence, Mawile)
- Bulky steel types (also Mawile, Ferrothorn)
- Rocky Helmet (Amoonguss, Garchomp)
You know what all of those have in common? They're all cleanly OHKOed by Pyroar, and also outsped ('cept Scarf Salamence). D is way too low for something that supports the best Pokemon in the format this well. If you're not using Pyroar in conjunction with Kangaskhan you're probably using it wrong.
Also Mega Gardevoir is an unviable crapmon.
Here are some of the most common things people use to beat Kangaskhan:
- Ghosts (Aegislash, Trevenant, Gourgeist)
- Intimidate (Salamence, Mawile)
- Bulky steel types (also Mawile, Ferrothorn)
- Rocky Helmet (Amoonguss, Garchomp)
You know what all of those have in common? They're all cleanly OHKOed by Pyroar, and also outsped ('cept Scarf Salamence). D is way too low for something that supports the best Pokemon in the format this well. If you're not using Pyroar in conjunction with Kangaskhan you're probably using it wrong.
Also Mega Gardevoir is an unviable crapmon.
Actually, you can EV Garchomp to take that HP Ice hit, to be fair to Garchomp, thus making it a losing match-up for Pyroar. Also, if Pyroar's moved up and Greninja's not, then we have major issues...
Actually, Pyroar was never overhyped, let alone considered a gimmick. This Pokemon really had only 1 viable set, and really it's been used for a long while and thus everyone should know that set by now. Regardless though, what made Pyroar stand out was the reactionary plays it forced your opponent into. Many of the prominent Pokemon in VGC simply fear being OHKO'd, and as a result, many unconventional plays are necessary to deal with this damage threat. Granted people can expect what attacks are going out, that is simply just a prediction play, which is not a valid argument since that works for both players.
Except why would anyone do that?
Also, Pyroar and Greninja aren't even close to being the same thing. The things that Pyroar beats are more relevant to the meta.
1) You'd be surprised how many people think to hit the thing, only to realize that it's still standing. Bulky set is pretty useful as a decent tanking option with few major weaknesses to exploit.
2) Greninja makes up for its lesser damage by being more flexible in team placement. Pyroar's got better damage on its STAB, but Greninja's faster with STAB coverage on anything it wants, including Ice-type moves. It's also a more viable Focus Sash user than Pyroar. I'm just saying that Pyroar shouldn't be going anywhere if Greninja isn't.
Trying to bulk up Garchomp to beat Pyroar is a bad idea (and no, no one does this either). There are so many more efficient ways of beating Pyroar than Garchomp, and doing so takes away from what makes Garchomp good in the first place.
Also you should re read my initial post lol. Pyroar beats Kangaskhan's counters. Greninja doesn't. They really don't have anything relevant in common.
Also you should re read my initial post lol. Pyroar beats Kangaskhan's counters. Greninja doesn't. They really don't have anything relevant in common.
"It's not good because no one does it" isn't exactly how one should approach Pokemon, you know. Sure, there's different ways to do different things, and some things are better than others. Still, in this case, a bulkier Garchomp build can sacrifice speed/damage for bulk to make match-ups favorable on its end.
For the specific set I've been using:
-It's still gonna beat its usual match-ups it beats outside of non-Scarfed Salamence.
-It's a better match-up against Mega Kanga, who'll have a harder time Double-Edge OHKOing it and will probably KO itself if you're holding Rocky Helm (assuming it took some scratch damage first.
-It gains much more staying power against non-STAB Ice attacks, even up to Mega Manectric, as long as it's not boosted Ice Beam.
-It survives Final Gambit from Lucario or Staraptor.
Also, there's MANY things that make Garchomp good, hence why it's the most used poke in doubles, and was the most used poke when the special ladder was VGC for 2 seasons. It has bulk. It has damage. It has speed. It has stat boosts. It even has a "damage back" set in Rough Skin + Rocky Helm and evasion abuse in Sand Veil + Bright Powder. There's a good deal of ways to run Garchomp that actually show results. It just depends on what your team needs. I needed a tank that can ignore Electric-type attacks. Garchomp can do that, among many other things. It's HIGHLY versatile as a pokemon, so I wouldn't rule one set or the other out too quickly.
As for the rest of that post, so we're putting Pyroar higher because it checks Steel-types? That's basically the only difference. Why not put Greninja higher because it deals with Tyranitar, Rotom-H, Talonflame, and Char Y better? I'm not saying the roles are the same. I'm saying that for what they bring to the table, there's not much reason Pyroar would move up and Greninja wouldn't.
lol I never said that
Also, regarding Pyroar, yes?? Again, it covers Kangaskhan's weaknesses, and Steel types are a staple on teams. Not to mention Greninja isn't even a check to Talonflame or Charizard. Greninja and Pyroar aren't interchangeable.
Rock Sliding Greninja can OHKO squishy Char Y builds, and a Focus Sash'd one beats Talonflame. It's a check. They don't all run Life Orb.
It's not a check if it requires a Sash to win a matchup. Like, surviving with 1 HP and KOing back is NOT a selling point, and it has to be at 100% to work at all.
Almost anything with Sash can win matchups they shouldn't be winning. You're really stretching the meaning of a check with that.
Bulky Garchomp is meh, you lose the ability to outspeed base 100s which is one of garchomps main selling points, as well as losing lot of power. So if you that to do something other Pokemon do better, that is fine. Garchomp, bulky or not, won't beat Salamence if it is Intimidated, Salamence has a Choice Scarf (the most common set), or has a Haban Berry. So bulky Garchomp still wins in the very few situations, but this isn't really relevant because most of the time it still loses regardless of set. Why is Garchomp even being discussed? There is no argument about it's viability.
Pyroar should definitely not move up, although I think bwebber was arguing for it to stay in C Rank, so I don't know where you got that from. Pyroar and Greninja are not comparable, I have no idea why you brought it up. Honestly I think Pyroar should remain in C Rank, but I wouldn't protest to it moving down. Pretty much every argument for has been brought up by this point.
Pyroar should definitely not move up, although I think bwebber was arguing for it to stay in C Rank, so I don't know where you got that from. Pyroar and Greninja are not comparable, I have no idea why you brought it up. Honestly I think Pyroar should remain in C Rank, but I wouldn't protest to it moving down. Pretty much every argument for has been brought up by this point.
I propose Klefki move up-- with priority Safeguard, reflect and thunderwave, along with beyond respectable defenses with its typing, it deserves B rank. It holds Dazzling Gleam for multi-hit coverage, doing a decent amount to a common amount of A tier, and synergizes really well with many good mega-evos.
To be fair, what it does can be replicated by Meow-M, but what Meow lacks is the defenses, and spread attack. Meows strategy is almost always Swagger, Safeguard, Reflect/T-wave, attack. Without swagger, The remaining moves are Klefki's, allowing it to be more defensive instead of chance oriented like Meow-M. With key Ice, Fairy, and Dragon resistance, it's not as easy to discard as the cat.
To be fair, what it does can be replicated by Meow-M, but what Meow lacks is the defenses, and spread attack. Meows strategy is almost always Swagger, Safeguard, Reflect/T-wave, attack. Without swagger, The remaining moves are Klefki's, allowing it to be more defensive instead of chance oriented like Meow-M. With key Ice, Fairy, and Dragon resistance, it's not as easy to discard as the cat.
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The only thing being compared was the fact that they're both squishy, fast sweepers. I'm saying that Greninja should be able to be put in C rank given the things it can do. It has an extremely wide range of possible coverage that allows it to fit on many teams. Seeing how they're both primarily used to get rid of targets quickly, and the only difference is that they take out different meta-relevant targets quickly, why is Greninja a D and Pyroar's a C? D is used for very gimmicky pokemon that are"gimmicky options can work, but need a good deal of support and team organizing to make them work". How does Greninja fall to the point where it's in the same tier as Delphox? Just based on the tier descriptions, that doesn't even make sense. Last I checked, having the fastest Water-type in the game with good coverage options, STAB on anything, and *respectable* damage output (it isn't that high, but it's decent) wasn't a one-off gimmick like Wigglytuff.
They aren't both sweepers. Pyroar is not a sweeper, its primary purpose is to OHKO Aegislash and Garchomp among others and generally provide offensive support, not sweep. It would make sense if you are finding Pyroar incredibly underwhelming if you are trying to use it to sweep. Greninja is fast and decently strong, but has serious 4MSS and is completely impossible to support defensively because of its ability. As a general rule basing your argument off the placement of other Pokemon isn't a particularly good idea, as one Pokemon's viability ranking in no way effects another. This is not to say that one Pokemon doesn't effect the viability of another, just its placement on a list doesn't.
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