VGC 2015 Viability Rankings - Mark 2

[tofucocoa]

made some changes to the rankings:

weavile C+ -> B-
virizion C+ -> B+
porygon2 C- -> C+
gardevoir mega A- -> B+ (tempted to drop lower)
tyranitar (mega) A- -> B
lopunny mega D -> C-
greninja C+ -> B-
lucario-mega B+ -> C+
gyarados-mega B+ -> A-
entei B -> B+
abomasnow B- -> B
abomasnow-mega B- -> C

i dont have time to write out explanations for all of these but for reals guys lopunny is p bad lol. maybe not D rank but like C- is where i draw the line. if it had close combat then it would be a slightly different story. also fake out lop is overrated.

 

[ProjectTitan313]

made some changes to the rankings:
virizion C+ -> B+

When you have time, kinda interested in the reasoning for that. I used Virizion a ton in BW2 and it was, imo, really fucking good, but wondering how Virizion ranks so respectably in a Talonflame infested metagame backed by a strong number of physical threats, and insurmountable foes like Metagross (both mega and non-mega), Amoonguss, Entei, Arcanine, Togekiss, Mega Venusaur, and Aegislash, plus other less common threats like Mega Altaria.
It hasn't changed at all since Gen 5, but Grass and Fighting were actually good offense back then (Dragon and Fighting being pretty much the top of the bunch). The introduction of Fairy and the rise of Flying and Fire types was a kick in the head, while Sand and Rain went from "75% of teams have at least 1 of them" to "I don't know about you guys, but I've seen ONE Toed since XY was released" also knocked Virizion's Sand/Rain slaying god niche down pretty hard.
That said, Virizion would pretty much be my #1 choice for a Grass type if I didn't run Mega Venusaur on every team I've made since its creation. Only thing that's changed for it is "Don't use physically defensive sets; we have Chesnaught now".

 

[Xanda]

I think normal Blaziken should rise to B or B+
I'm using it just now with great success. A mixed life orb set can basically outspeeds and OHKO Aegislash, Amoongus, Kangaskhan, Not AV Landorus-T, Metagross, Not bulky Mega Salamence, Hydreigon, Terrakion, Bisharp and probably more I don't remember now.
Immunity to burn and to a certain extent to intimidate makes him really scary. Ofc he's still frail as hell and hates Talonflame, that's why B is the right placement imho.

OT. How can i write something under my nick?

 

[Mymble]

I'm going to make some nominations surrounding B rank as a whole.

The first is Mega Gardevoir from B+ to B/B-. Simply put Mega Gardevoir has a really hard time in the current metagame, the majority of the common attackers Physical which given Mega Gardevoir's poor defense makes Mega Gardevoir's defensive capabilities really underwhelming. The many common Steel- and Fire-types also give it a lot of problems, as they can sponge Hyper Voice's pretty easily. Wide Guard being on a lot of teams really only compounds this. In terms of being a Fairy-type Mega Gardevoir gets a lot of competition from Sylveon, which has the advantage of not being a Mega. Mega Gardevoir is by no means bad, with Tailwind support it can be a dangerous sweeper and Ally Switch can be incredibly useful, it just isn't a borderline A rank Mon.

Regular Gardevoir from B to C/C-. This thing is outclassed in almost everything it does. The support set is largely outclassed by Gengar who has a faster Will-O-Wisp and Taunt as well as being immune to Earthquake and Mega Kangaskhan's STAB. In general terms it is an inferior defensive Fairy-type compared to Clefairy and Clefable, they both bulkier and Follow Me support is more consistently useful. 70 Base Speed is really too fast to be a reliable Trick Room setter, and is slower than Aegislash under Trick Room in most situations. Choice Specs is outclassed by Sylveon who is bulkier and stronger with Hyper Voice. Gardevoir's only unique set is Choice Scarf which is pretty mediocre as well. Choice Scarf acts as an offensive check to Dragon- and Fighting-types, however given the abundance of Steel-types checking these typings isn't hard.

Mega Camerupt from B to C+. Completely reliant on Trick Room, don't use it otherwise. Mega Camerupt has very exploitable weaknesses combined with god awful Speed it is a complete liability outside of Trick Room. While strong it has limited coverage making relatively easy to predict around. While very dangerous inside Trick Room Mega Camerupts complete reliance on it really makes it a C+.

Aromaisse from B to D. Aromatisse is completely outclassed by Clefairy and Clefable. It can only set up Trick Room, it has no offensive presence whatsoever. Having no offensive presence and little support presence makes it dead weight and wasting the Trick Room that it set up. It does have a great ability but that is literally it, and in no way qualifies for being B rank. If Trick Room was dominant I could see Aromatisse being ranked higher, but given that Trick Room isn't, this thing has no reason to be this high.

Rhyperior and Rhydon B- to C. Outside of Trick Room, these two are garbage. They check/counter a lot of the Fire-types, but their defenses are really wasted on a shit defensive typing, being 4* weak to Water- and Grass-types is really limiting to what they can do. Lighting Rod on Rhydon is alright, but Eviolite means it can't run protect which really compounds it's weaknesses.

Finally.

Mega Manectric from B to B+. I honestly find myself preferring this to Raikou. The additional twenty base Speed lets Mega Manectric better check Mega Salamence and access to Overheat lets it check Mega Metagross. Losing the item slot isn't a huge deal for Mega Manectric as it both hits pretty hard to start with and outspeeds a lot of Choice Scarfed Pokemon. Intimidate compensates for Mega Manectric's relatively mediocre bulk, it is essentially a physical Assault Vest, but you can still run Protect. It has got a few advantages over Raikou, and a slightly better metagame match-up.

 

[ProjectTitan313]

Rhyperior and Rhydon B- to C. Outside of Trick Room, these two are garbage. They check/counter a lot of the Fire-types, but their defenses are really wasted on a shit defensive typing, being 4* weak to Water- and Grass-types is really limiting to what they can do. Lighting Rod on Rhydon is alright, but Eviolite means it can't run protect which really compounds it's weaknesses.

Eviolite allows status moves. AssVest Rhyperior is the one who lacks Protect :P

Outside of TR, they still hold tanking prowess. They also strongly discourage the foe from setting up TR. And TTar, they also adore the sight of an opposing TTar.

That said, Rhydon/perior resist Fire, Normal, Flying, Rock, Poison, and Electric, and have a nice combo of support (Lightningrod), offense (130/140 base attack + awesome STAB coverage + godly coverage? Yes please), and bulk (Lando-T's SE STAB EQ? Not even a 2HKO). Unless its LO TR Rhyperior, you don't build a team around them; they fill in a hole. That said, they're very niche in a way; but are still among the best Ground types available, especially if you don't want to EQ your partner - Drill Run baby.

Flaws are, of course, numerous. WoW. Intimdiate. Water types. MegaSaur. Breloom. "if only I could heal...". But imo, its about the same pro-to-con ratio as other ~B mons like Volcarona, Salamence, Raikou, and Scrafty. Char-Y + AsVest Rhyperior was my "Why doesn't Hydro Pump Rotom-W kill this!?" combo in early 2014. I'd keep them B- or C+ at worst. They're a peg above Smeargle and Dragalge.

 

[Aurorusite]

Agreed with Chenkovsky with everything, expect halfly with Aromatisse.
It is immune to Taunt due to Aroma Veil, and immune to Encores (its partner are immune to those aswell when tisse is on field), meaning that its pretty quarantee to get Trick Room up (you just need something to block Fake Out/potenrially KOing moves, ie quick guard and follow me/rage powder), which alone gives it big enough niche to not be in D rank. Also due to this ability, it doesnt need to run Mental Herb, meaning that it can run things like Safety goggles to block Spores. While B is far too high for this thing, D is far too low imo. C is where it belongs.

 

[tofucocoa]

When you have time, kinda interested in the reasoning for that. I used Virizion a ton in BW2 and it was, imo, really fucking good, but wondering how Virizion ranks so respectably in a Talonflame infested metagame backed by a strong number of physical threats, and insurmountable foes like Metagross (both mega and non-mega), Amoonguss, Entei, Arcanine, Togekiss, Mega Venusaur, and Aegislash, plus other less common threats like Mega Altaria.
It hasn't changed at all since Gen 5, but Grass and Fighting were actually good offense back then (Dragon and Fighting being pretty much the top of the bunch). The introduction of Fairy and the rise of Flying and Fire types was a kick in the head, while Sand and Rain went from "75% of teams have at least 1 of them" to "I don't know about you guys, but I've seen ONE Toed since XY was released" also knocked Virizion's Sand/Rain slaying god niche down pretty hard.
That said, Virizion would pretty much be my #1 choice for a Grass type if I didn't run Mega Venusaur on every team I've made since its creation. Only thing that's changed for it is "Don't use physically defensive sets; we have Chesnaught now".

i'm mainly putting it there for the life orb set that can outspeed/KO kangaskhan, bisharp, heatran, charizard-y, etc (basically it can ko a bunch of top meta threats), and can do big damage to other things like suicune and rotom-w, and it's really easy to kill weakened waters, if not KO them outright. it's anti meta right now basically, but you're right that it can be easily pooped on by bird and fairies. B+ is good for virizion right now imo.

the case can be made for the rhyde bros just because of lightningrod, but i think C+ would be a good home for them, right next to other pokemon i think are cool like lapras (aka screw yo type chart) and staraptor (aka the original yolobird). they have bad typing and special defense, which is really the only thing holding them back. i think i'll put aromatisse in C+ as well, since it's in the same boat as porygon2 as a trick roomer with neat tricks but still outclassed by more mainstream setters. also agreeing with chenko about regular gardevoir. i want to believe in mega gardevoir as well, but it's making that hard for me.

i'll think about mega rupt for a little bit before commenting.

i'm thinking about moving arcanine up. i've played against it and it's pretty scary how unpredictable it can be with choice band and bulky special sets being equally viable. its CB set has close combat and extremespeed and its bulky set has morning sun and snarl/wow to make it insanely hard to kill if it gets one or two snarls/intimidates off.

 

[ProjectTitan313]

i'm mainly putting it there for the life orb set that can outspeed/KO kangaskhan, bisharp, heatran, charizard-y, etc (basically it can ko a bunch of top meta threats), and can do big damage to other things like suicune and rotom-w, and it's really easy to kill weakened waters, if not KO them outright. it's anti meta right now basically, but you're right that it can be easily pooped on by bird and fairies. B+ is good for virizion right now imo.

the case can be made for the rhyde bros just because of lightningrod, but i think C+ would be a good home for them, right next to other pokemon i think are cool like lapras (aka screw yo type chart) and staraptor (aka the original yolobird). they have bad typing and special defense, which is really the only thing holding them back. i think i'll put aromatisse in C+ as well, since it's in the same boat as porygon2 as a trick roomer with neat tricks but still outclassed by more mainstream setters. also agreeing with chenko about regular gardevoir. i want to believe in mega gardevoir as well, but it's making that hard for me.

i'll think about mega rupt for a little bit before commenting.

i'm thinking about moving arcanine up. i've played against it and it's pretty scary how unpredictable it can be with choice band and bulky special sets being equally viable. its CB set has close combat and extremespeed and its bulky set has morning sun and snarl/wow to make it insanely hard to kill if it gets one or two snarls/intimidates off.

Physical LO set for Virizion? Ok, that I can see, lol. I used mine as a CM sweeper with Giga Drain, but the depressing lack of coverage / reliable Fighting STAB makes it a bit easy to stop.

Arcanine runs physical, special, bulky, and even mixed sets rather well. Its a lot like Mega Mence; you never really know what you're facing until it gets one or two moves off. It has a powerful, spread STAB, three strong single target STABs off of good stats (Flare Blitz, Fire Blast, Overheat), one of the best priority moves in the game with Extremespeed, awesome support with Snarl, WoW, Helping Hand, and Intimidate, more or less reliable recovery, and decent coverage with Wild Charge, Crunch, Close Combat, Hidden Power, and I guess Dragon Pulse? That was a horrifying run-on sentance.

tl;dr Arcanine is versatile as hell and really does fill a niche or two that nothing else does.

 

[Rokudo Mukuru]

Hello, I am an European VGC player and I wanted to share my opinion about some things, if that is ok:

Sylveon: Although it was for sure top5 non-Mega pokemon in the beginning of the season, it pretty much disappeared in the European and North American circuit.
The reason for it is just that the metagame evolve to play around it.
Steel types (Aegislash, Bisharp, Heatran, Ferrothorn, Mega Metagross, Mega Mawile, etc) are mandatory in every team, Sash Gengar is extremely popular, the top megas OHKO or almost OHKO it (Kang, Mence, Metagross, Zardy, Mawile, Scizor, Camerupt, Mega Pert in Rain, etc) and it lacks versatility. The only viable teams with it are teams with many ways to Speed Control (Trick Room and Tailwind, mainly), reducing a lot its viability. It is not like Thundurus-I, Gengar, Amoonguss, Aegislash, etc (pokemons of the same ranking) that you can throw in pretty much any team and make it work.

And as a support pokemon, Clefable and Florges do this function better than Sylveon, in my opinion.

That said, I believe Sylveon should drop a rank, becoming A instead of A+.

Mega Venusaur: for sure a good pokemon, but it needs pretty much the whole team giving it support. Its not like Mence, Cresselia, Zapdos and Hydreigon, that work on many team archetypes.
It needs the support of Intimidate users, reliable ways to deal with Mega Salamence, Mega Charizard Y and Mega Metagross (popular megas) and at least another way of support (Snarl, Speed Control, etc).

This is just my opinion, sorry if I am posting in the wrong place or discussing about something that has already been settled.

I will talk about other Pokemon later!

 

[Steven Stone]

Hello, I am an European VGC player and I wanted to share my opinion about some things, if that is ok:

Sylveon: Although it was for sure top5 non-Mega pokemon in the beginning of the season, it pretty much disappeared in the European and North American circuit.
The reason for it is just that the metagame evolve to play around it.
Steel types (Aegislash, Bisharp, Heatran, Ferrothorn, Mega Metagross, Mega Mawile, etc) are mandatory in every team, Sash Gengar is extremely popular, the top megas OHKO or almost OHKO it (Kang, Mence, Metagross, Zardy, Mawile, Scizor, Camerupt, Mega Pert in Rain, etc) and it lacks versatility. The only viable teams with it are teams with many ways to Speed Control (Trick Room and Tailwind, mainly), reducing a lot its viability. It is not like Thundurus-I, Gengar, Amoonguss, Aegislash, etc (pokemons of the same ranking) that you can throw in pretty much any team and make it work.

And as a support pokemon, Clefable and Florges do this function better than Sylveon, in my opinion.

That said, I believe Sylveon should drop a rank, becoming A instead of A+.

Mega Venusaur: for sure a good pokemon, but it needs pretty much the whole team giving it support. Its not like Mence, Cresselia, Zapdos and Hydreigon, that work on many team archetypes.
It needs the support of Intimidate users, reliable ways to deal with Mega Salamence, Mega Charizard Y and Mega Metagross (popular megas) and at least another way of support (Snarl, Speed Control, etc).

This is just my opinion, sorry if I am posting in the wrong place or discussing about something that has already been settled.

I will talk about other Pokemon later!

I think we had a discussion about Sylveon earlier on the forums, so i'm glad this is brought back to light!
About Sylveon, yes, there are plenty of checks, we know that for sure, but as i said earlier, the fact that people has to bring a Pokémon to deal with Sylveon on your team is more of a reason to KEEP IT on where it is rather than dropping it a rank. Otherwise Kangaskhan and Landorus-T wouldn't be S since they have really well-known checks and counters and they can't do well against them unless they are running a gimmicky move or a really good team support. Heatran can't take too many HP Ground from Specs Sylveon, and they really hurt it. Mawile takes around 30% from Specs Hyper Voice and it isn't really switching in, and Sylveon also outspeeds it letting it go for Hyper Voice if lacking a switch in, doing a solid amount of damage in the opponent. Metagross takes around 80% from Specs Sylveon Shadow Ball, so if Sylveon is under TR/Tailwind it is more of a check than a counter, since Shadow Ball just does a ton of damage. Not to mention Hyper Voice does around 30% as well to the non-bulky variants in the normal form, making Metagross unlikely to switch many times. Zard Y is a really good defensive check...but what it can do against Sylveon anyways? Camerupt is a really good check on TR, i concede that, but i've rarely seen a team without a Water type, since is pretty much mandatory on the metagame.
Florges? Why is that even mentioned on here? And also, what kind of support does Florges? I've never seen or fought one so idk what it does, could someone tell me pls?. I'll give you Clefable, it is WAY better than Sylveon, but they fit different roles so be careful.

Well, Mega Venusaur was also on a discussion earlier on....and guess what? U are right! Mega Venusaur needs to be built around, so A- is really better for him. Aaron built around it like crazy, but that's not the only way to build Venusaur. I've seen some players using Mega Venusaur on Zard Y teams as a secondary mega option and a sun attacker at the same time, so it can check rain and work well under sun. Mega Venusaur can't drop to B categories since is the best rain check VGC has until now, without lying or anything. Its bulk is also incredible so i'd go A-, definitely.

 

[Rokudo Mukuru]

I think we had a discussion about Sylveon earlier on the forums, so i'm glad this is brought back to light!
About Sylveon, yes, there are plenty of checks, we know that for sure, but as i said earlier, the fact that people has to bring a Pokémon to deal with Sylveon on your team is more of a reason to KEEP IT on where it is rather than dropping it a rank. Otherwise Kangaskhan and Landorus-T wouldn't be S since they have really well-known checks and counters and they can't do well against them unless they are running a gimmicky move or a really good team support. Heatran can't take too many HP Ground from Specs Sylveon, and they really hurt it. Mawile takes around 30% from Specs Hyper Voice and it isn't really switching in, and Sylveon also outspeeds it letting it go for Hyper Voice if lacking a switch in, doing a solid amount of damage in the opponent. Metagross takes around 80% from Specs Sylveon Shadow Ball, so if Sylveon is under TR/Tailwind it is more of a check than a counter, since Shadow Ball just does a ton of damage. Not to mention Hyper Voice does around 30% as well to the non-bulky variants in the normal form, making Metagross unlikely to switch many times. Zard Y is a really good defensive check...but what it can do against Sylveon anyways? Camerupt is a really good check on TR, i concede that, but i've rarely seen a team without a Water type, since is pretty much mandatory on the metagame.
Florges? Why is that even mentioned on here? And also, what kind of support does Florges? I've never seen or fought one so idk what it does, could someone tell me pls?. I'll give you Clefable, it is WAY better than Sylveon, but they fit different roles so be careful.

Well, Mega Venusaur was also on a discussion earlier on....and guess what? U are right! Mega Venusaur needs to be built around, so A- is really better for him. Aaron built around it like crazy, but that's not the only way to build Venusaur. I've seen some players using Mega Venusaur on Zard Y teams as a secondary mega option and a sun attacker at the same time, so it can check rain and work well under sun. Mega Venusaur can't drop to B categories since is the best rain check VGC has until now, without lying or anything. Its bulk is also incredible so i'd go A-, definitely.

I understand your point of view about Sylveon.
In the end I think it just depends on what criteria is being used to rank pokemons.
The thing about Sylveon is that it is forced to run Choice Specs to be effective (as in, get proper kills), but having a slow pokemon locked in a move makes your team lack a lot of versatility and defensive switches.

If you run another item on Sylveon (Pixie Plate, Siturs Berry, Life Orb, etc) just to be able to use Protect and switch moves, then there are better pokemon for this role.

If you get locked in something other than Hyper Voice (Shadow Ball, Psyshock, Hidden Power Ground, Hidden Power Fire, etc), your team loses a lot of momentum, which is key in fast formats like VGC.

If you take a look in the A+ pokemon, Sylveon is the only one that needs other team members supporting it (with Speed Control).
You can throw Kang, Land-T, Thundi, Mega Metagross, Heatran, Terrak, RotomW, Amoonguss, etc in any kind of team and they will perform well.

Sylveon is not like that, itself is not a huge presence like the other pokemon in his ranking. For it to become a huge presence, it needs support.

I used Sylveon in the first Regional in Europe, in a Tailwind team, and it disappointed me.
In the only match that I knew it wouldnt be bad to bring it, I Hyper Beam'd a Kang and then got OHKOd by a Bisharp.
Lets be honest, Hyper Voice is a threat, but it is not ~that~ strong to get many OHKOs it should get.
The metagame evolved and Sylveon is now outdated.
All the players who brought it to this Regionals regreted it, because it is not enough versatile, and this is the truth.

Also, for Florges, it placed #15 in Worlds last year and got #1 seed in the Swiss Round of a Premier Challenge last weekend:
http://nuggetbridge.com/reports/muc...15th-place-world-championships-team-analysis/

In the end, I believe that it depends in the definition being used.
If, in this ranking, there should be pokemon that have a huge offensive or defensive presence and are used a lot in showdown ladder / battle spot, then for sure keep Sylveon.
However, if we agree that in this ranking there should be only pokemon that alone represent a huge threat, with enough versatility and capable of alone doing a lot of work against many matchups, and pokemon used a lot in "real life" tournaments, then for sure Sylveon should not be there.

If you take a look in the teams that topcut'd recent Regionals, you are likely to see more Clefable/Clefairy than Sylveon.

 

[DaAwesomeDude1]

I see your viewpoint on Sylveon and I understand where you're coming from; however, I personally don't think Sylveon should drop from A+ YET. It's not very versatile that's for sure (like seriously how often do you use Sylveon's coverage moves even if you're not specs rofl).
"Reserved for Pokemon that function very well within the current VGC15 metagame. The Pokemon in this tier are either able to perform multiple roles to great effect, or execute one extremely well. Support Pokemon in this tier can create free turns, but not as easily as those in the S Rank.The flaws that the Pokemon in this tier may have are usually mitigated by their positive traits, or with minimal team support."
I think this fits Sylveon pretty well. It performs its Specs set very well and the sheer power that it offers counterbalances its slow speed and mediocre Defense. Just having redirection/speed control can easily allow Sylveon to punch holes into the opponent's team. As mentioned above, the fact that you need something for Sylveon justifies how threatening it is. Sylveon is also pretty splashable tbh, there are pretty much no downsides to adding Sylveon unless if obviously your team is weak to Bisharp/Mega Meta. Yes, Sylveon isn't able to do a lot of work against a lot of matchups alone but that's the reason why it was moved down from S (i forgot if it was here or back in that old thread where we had that discussion and too lazy to check rofl). Also I don't feel comparing Sylveon to Clefairy/Clefable/Florges is the best as they perform different roles. That's p much my two cents on Sylveon, I still think its a very threatening Pokemon currently and should not drop just yet.

 

[TheMantyke]

I'd like to make a few changes to the viability rankings for the sake of being a bit harsher on the lower stuff. What do you all think?

Gardevoir B to B-: I don't have particularly strong feelings for this, but I think Gardevoir's kind of underwhelming

Blaziken B- to C+
Tornadus B- to C
Infernape B- to C+
Lucario B- to C+
Weavile B- to C+ :

These kind of all fall in the same boat as to why I think they should move down. They're frail, don't fit onto most teams, and aren't as flexible to use as a lot of other B rank mons.

C Rank Rises

Mega Lopunny from C- to B: I feel like it's an intimidating presence and has proven itself to be way more worth using than a lot of the stuff we have sitting in C tier. Just having low kick for fighting stab is pretty meh, but I don't think it's an absolute deal breaker. You have a powerful normal stab that goes through Ghosts, Fake Out, and fast encore on board and you force your opponent to scout out which of all that you're carrying. I've talked to some others that are solid at vgc and they seem to agree that B tier is a reasonable placement for it. I'd really, really like to see this move up

C Rank drops
Gastrodon C+ to C-: I just don't seem this thing being particularly useful anywhere
Lapras C+ to E: What exactly does Lapras do? I don't think whatever it does is being done solidly enough to merit use outside of D
Dragalge C+ to C: Powerful, but it just feels like a slower, more vulnerable Hydreigon that can stand up to Sylveon
Landorus-I C to C- No sheer force sucks, but it's still got the best Earth Power on a non mega and that's about it.
Meowstic-Male C to D: It's a little bulkier than other prankster users, but that's about it.
Garchomp-Mega C- to D. A Huge opportunity cost for a very mediocre mega
Dragonite C- to D: It feels like Dragonite doesn't excel at anything beyond base stats.
Dusclops C- to D Bulky, but it's taunt bait and easy to ignore
Pinsir-Mega C- to D It's powerful, but vulnerability to Rock Slides, taking up the mega slot, and doing a lot of the same stuff other pokemon do on the fly better
Trevenant C- to E: Unlimited Sitrus Berries is cool, but Trev just seems to unperform most of the time

I'd also like to drop a lot of the Pokemon in D for being really irrelevant at the moment:
Mega Banette
Mega Beedrill
Parasect
Pachirisu
Noivern
Mega Pidgeot
Vivillon
Mega Steelix
Mega Sharpedo

I'm sure there's a lot to discuss here so I'm happy to hear your input.​

 

[Nelson Tangela]

Lapras C+ to E: What exactly does Lapras do? I don't think whatever it does is being done solidly enough to merit use outside of D

Lapras is a niche pick that you'd add to a team as like the 5th or 6th member if you are seriously Rain Team weak, because it just destroys those Politoed/Swift Swim Sweeper combos. It also helps you if your main sweepers are blocked by Water-tanks and you want another way to beat them reliably. E is way too low in my opinion...

C-Rank description says:
"Reserved for Pokemon that can work okay within the VGC15 metagame. However, they either have crippling flaws that prevent consistent performance or require much team support to work on most teams. Pokemon that have a few niches in the metagame but are mainly outclassed by higher-ranked Pokemon also belong here."

That last sentence pretty much sums up Lapras.

 

[nightwolf]

Blaziken B- to C+

Agree with this completely, argued against its bumpage to no avail even though it doesn't meet all the things listed for B-. The fiery chicken has too many fans to dissuade from the thought of it not being as good as they think

 

[Steven Stone]

Agree with this completely, argued against its bumpage to no avail even though it doesn't meet all the things listed for B-. The fiery chicken has too many fans to dissuade from the thought of it not being as good as they think

Yeah, after all, we had a HOLE ARGUMENT about the fire chicken, and considering DaAwesomeDude1's fire chicken "joke" team, i think is enough to put normal blaze on B- FOR NOW...

 

[Aurorusite]

I agree about Lapras with Nelson, dropping it to E rank is stupid in my opinion. It has insane coverage from Hydro Pump and Freeze-Dry (i think its unresisted), and it can easily abuse Weakness Policy due to its bulk. Not to mention it pretty much destroys Rain (okay, it is weak to Ludicolo's Grass STAB, but Freeze-Dry...). Its not best mon in the format, but definely not E rank material, however i agree that C+ is too high for it.
C- or D imo

Dragonite on other hand would straight away drop to D, or even E. It has only 2 "niches", and thats a Multiscale, which means it can abuse Weakness Policy, and only Dragon with access to Espeed. Its stats are good, but overall it is outclassed on all roles. Want powerful Dragon Dancer Dragon? Use Mega Salamence. Want bulky Dragon? Use Goodra. And so on...
It really is outclassed on almost everything. Whenever i face them, i can easily beat them. Multiscale is nice, but Fake Out ruins it, and unlike most Dragon Dancers, it lacks Intimidate, so it takes notable damage from Rock Slides.

D or E. it is up to your opinions.

Then some opinions about these:

Mega Banette: Maybe it can work, but it is really gimmicky imo most of time, which sounds like E rank
Mega Beedrill: Hits like a turn, and is fast. It sure it is one of the hardest megas to build team around it, but it can work. Its so unique that it should stay in D
Parasect: Only viable VGC mon with 4x Ground resist, more offense than Amoon, Dry Skin, most notably Wide Guard. Keep it in D.
Pachirisu: Se Jun ofc won with it, but it really doesnt tell much. With Landorus being back and meta being much more powerful, i dont see it being enough viable to be in D, so it probably should drop to E.
Noivern: cant judge this one, though not really sure what it has over talonflame or even crobat
Mega Pidgeot: 100% Hurricane is honestly scary especially with its confusion chance. Stats are mediocre for mega, and its movepool is horrible, tho, but 100% Hurricane is imo enough to keep in D
Vivillon: Fastest mon with fully (well 97%)accurate sleeping move in the meta, access to friend guard, can also use compound eyes, or even rage powder. Also gets Tailwind. definely not E
Mega Steelix: its garbage imo. 125 atk is bad for mega, and needs both TR and sand to work. jesus. not to mention its defensive typing is not the best around and bar from its stupid def (perhaps still 2HKOed by strongest fighting moves) its stats overall sucks. and its ability rely on weather. DEFINELY E
Mega Sharpedo: totally no experience with it, wont judge, but doesnt seem promising outside of hitting terribly hard

 

[Nelson Tangela]

Noivern: cant judge this one, though not really sure what it has over talonflame or even crobat

I haven't used Noivern in VGC15 yet, but Noivern has exactly one niche that neither Talonflame nor Crobat can offer you.
It allows you to effectively kill opposing dragons, because it outspeeds every single one of them and can fire off STAB Draco Meteor before they can attack. Frisk also scouts for Choice Scarves and Focus Sashes to make sure that you don't run into a trap.
This was a lot more effective in last years metagame, because Garchomp was on 90% of teams, so I think that D-Rank is good enough... maybe even D-, but it's definitely not a gimmick. It's pretty much just a slower, dragon-slaying Crobat.

btw: Crobat should at least be ranked somewhere.

Both Crobat and Noivern have exactly the same bulk base stat wise. Both offer Superfang, Tailwind and fast Taunt support. Crobat gets Quick Guard and kills fairies, while Noivern could run Choice Switcheroo to mess with support Pokémon, has Frisk for scouting and kills dragons.

- Crobat => C
- Noivern => D

killing fairies > killing dragons imo

 

[Steven Stone]

OMG, we have asked for SOO long to add Crobat on the rankings, why it isn't on it yet!?

 

[tofucocoa]

alphabetized some tiers and added links to mons with VGC15 analyses to make the list a little more interactive. i also moved aromatisse down to C but didn't completely mean to do so.

 

[ProjectTitan313]

Noivern? Personally, I like it, because its fluffy and cute, but in terms of actual relevance it really only holds a few small niches over Crobat, who is for all intents and purposes, better in every way.
1) As mentioned, it is quite the anti-dragon troll. 123 Speed and Draco Meteor will give the pimp's backhand to any dragon of your choice bar Mega Altaria. Its nice chip damage too. DM + U-Turn is a fun combo, only other user is Flygon and let's be serious here.
2) Frisk is useful for any team you'd ever need to specifically use a Noivern for, as revealing the items of both foes at once can help you decide things like "Is this Gengar sash'd, or is it a Mega PerishTrap asshole?".
3) Telepathy is a really nice ability in VGC, and Noivern is honestly one of the best users of it. Unlike Crobat, it gives absolutely 0 shits about Roosting next to an EQ user, and fits in nicely with DisQuake, Surf, and Explosion shenanigans. Super Fang goes the extra mile in differentiating it from Musharna, Gardevoir, and... what else has Telepathy... Wobbuffet and Beheeyem? And of course, Telepathy Medicham. Ignoring Noivern's massive Speed of course.
4) Yeah, it has Boomburst, but Soundproof and Telepathy are rare abilities and most teams run a max of 1 ghost. Now matter how much Skyrim may tempt you to try it, Mega Mence and the adorable Mega Altaria are the only dragons that should ever be Shouting shit to death.
5) Switcheroo Specs is funny, especially when things like Lando-T are involved, but its completely useless against Megas, detrimental if something like Rotom-W swaps in, and really limits Noivern's supportive abilities when it HAS to switch after setting Tailwind or using Taunt, and nothing makes you feel like an idiot quite as much as SPECS SUPER FANG, FUCK YEAH.
6) I guess it has Hurricane but really, Brave Bird is a ton better even with recoil.

Lapras:
Straight-up decimates Gyarados, Swampert, and Ludicolo (Giga Drain isn't doing much to 130/95 bulk plus the possibility of AssVest), shits on almost every legal Water type (Stone Edge Mega Gyara and... Lanturn probably win. Probably), and offers really impressive coverage. Beyond that, it really just takes 1-2 attacks, hits like a foam baseball bat to the leg if not hitting SE, and then gets the shit beaten out of it with no way of healing it off aside form maybe Water Absorb, and Heal Pulse support. Takes too much damage from Rotom-W to really call it a counter. Weakness Policy might be funny. HydraRest is not the godly combo it once was in Gen 5, which hurts lapras a lot.

tl;dr C-/D is fine for Noivern, E is just mean. Lapras, somewhere between C to D is fine, E rank is again a tad mean. Both have Rain niches too I guess, but Rain has taken a welcome fall from grace since Gen 5.

 

[Gorphish]

I think Arcanine should move up to A-

It may not be the best pokemon at either of it's roles, but there is pretty much no other pokemon which can run a defensive set and an offensive set so well, which makes it horribly difficult to predict. Angel Miranda showed how strong the Choice Band set is at Utah(???) recently while the bulky set has insane support value with access to intimidate, snarl, helping hand and WOW, with morning sun adding to its already reliable bulk. It can even run a life orb/E-belt mixed attacking set extremely well with proper support. Due to being able to run so many sets so well, it is a nightmare to predict in Team preview and IMO is definitely worthy of moving up to A-

 

[Aurorusite]

Some other nominations:

Does Jumpluff have any kind of specific niche as Rage Powder user anymore? Its not exactly bulky, its offense is terrible compared to Parasect or even Amoonguss, and its 4x weak to Ice aswell weak to Rock, Fire and Flying. It even cant learn Tailwind. Only thing what i can imagine of it doing is speedy Sleep Powder, but its accuracy sucks and you could just use Breloom under Tailwind or even Vivillon if you want fast sleep. I dont see anything specific niche for Jumpy, due to this, I feel like it is E-rank material, but tell me if i am missing something about it.

Talonflame, while good, doesnt really seem A+ material anymore. It is horribly frail (unless runs bulky set which lacks power however) and due to its common item (Life Orb) and its both most common STAB moves has recoil, combined with its frailness, it lives typically only few turns, even if it carries Sash. Any Rock Slide kills it, bulky waters especially both common Rotoms can take hit and KO it back. Choice Band is meh imo, while powerful, is really unflexible, and loses Talonflame's one of the best point: its support movepool. Intimidate hampers it even more than most Physical attackers, since every turn is really important for Talonflame due to its frailness and the fact it becomes weak at -1. It has still great points, such as its support movepool, strongest priority move, good offensive typing, versatility (can run multiple sets), and priority Tailwind, but it has so much flaws that it really shouldnt be A+ in my opinion. Drop it to A or A- rank.

Why is Musharna in C rankings? It is almost entirely outclassed by Cresselia, and if you want bulky, offensive Trick Room setting Psychic-type, generally Slowbro or Reuniclus is better. It has Telepathy, sure, but Cresselia also has Levitate. Spread moves that hits allies are rare that is not Earthquake, and Levitate also helps against opposing EQs, unlike Telepathy. Main niches what it has is the fact you can pair it with slow Boomburst user (Exploud? ehh idk) or something, and Imprison + Trick Room, but those arent so great and really doesnt deserve C rankings.Drop it to D rank, imo.

Rampardos has insane base 165 Atk, plus Sheer Force, which means ridicuously powerful Rock Slide if you slap CB or LO on it. With CB, Rock Slide does around 75% to non bulky Kanga, and with HH, it can OHKO 4hp Kanga with Rock Slide, and has also 1/3 chance to OHKO it with LO and HH. It has also some cool other moves like Iron Head, Head Smash, Earthquake and Fire Punch. It has awful bulk, bad typing defensively, really works in Trick Room only. It has however crazy power, more than even most megas, so it has a niche imo. Aurorus got Snow Warning, which means it is second mon with autohail, giving another option if you want to build HailRoom team. Aurorus has actually slightly better stats than non mega Aboma, it reliably beats Talonflame and Mega Salamence, unlike Abomasnow (well aboma beats mence under TR tho). Aurorus also gets Earth Power, which also gives it ability to beat Heatran, which counters Aboma, and Freeze-Dry, which gives it ridiculous coverage. It has however even more terrible typing, and due to this, it reliably cant beat Rain teams (it can however do heavy damage to Swampert-M/Kingdra/Ludicolo). It also lacks Mega, unlike Abomasnow. Due to its typing, it is even harder to build team around it, but it has several things over Aboma. Both Rampardos and Aurorus deserves D rank, imo.

 

[P3DS]

Talonflame, while good, doesnt really seem A+ material anymore. It is horribly frail (unless runs bulky set which lacks power however) and due to its common item (Life Orb) and its both most common STAB moves has recoil, combined with its frailness, it lives typically only few turns, even if it carries Sash. Any Rock Slide kills it, bulky waters especially both common Rotoms can take hit and KO it back. Choice Band is meh imo, while powerful, is really unflexible, and loses Talonflame's one of the best point: its support movepool. Intimidate hampers it even more than most Physical attackers, since every turn is really important for Talonflame due to its frailness and the fact it becomes weak at -1. It has still great points, such as its support movepool, strongest priority move, good offensive typing, versatility (can run multiple sets), and priority Tailwind, but it has so much flaws that it really shouldnt be A+ in my opinion. Drop it to A or A- rank.

Althought it is frail, a 120 BP STAB flying type priority move isn't something to laugh at. It is still A+ material, as most teams need something for the bird, or risk being swept 4-0. And it's priority tailwind makes it very deadly.

I'd be tempted to bump mega lucario to B/B- . It is a very strong pokemon, and only needs something to deal with landorus, charizard and a couple of others, and it will cut your team apart. Adaptability close combat is just lethal, and it gets access to a good variety of moves, and can even go special. Add in the fact ice punch deals heavy damage to mence and it can OHKO mega kang at -1 with CC (!!!), it is an amazing pick for a mega, and can have a good core around it fairly well.

Latios should be B tier. It isn't the best like it used to be, and, although it can cause a it of damage, it is a shadow of it's former self. Many pokemon can easily tank it's moves, and then KO back. Kang gets sucker punch, and mega metagross walls it completely.

Also, I'd be looking at porygon2 to be B- tier. It is a very threatening pokemon, and the fact that a download ice beam will destroy most landorus out there, and even some thundurus, and the fact it's bulk is incredible, this pokemon deserves a higher spot. Eviolite turns it into a monster, and with access to bolt beam, and has recovery and trick room, this duck will stick around, and will be very devastating.

Just my opinion

 

[Aurorusite]

Althought it is frail, a 120 BP STAB flying type priority move isn't something to laugh at. It is still A+ material, as most teams need something for the bird, or risk being swept 4-0. And it's priority tailwind makes it very deadly.

I'd be tempted to bump mega lucario to B/B- . It is a very strong pokemon, and only needs something to deal with landorus, charizard and a couple of others, and it will cut your team apart. Adaptability close combat is just lethal, and it gets access to a good variety of moves, and can even go special. Add in the fact ice punch deals heavy damage to mence and it can OHKO mega kang at -1 (!!!), it is an amazing pick for a mega, and can have a good core around it fairly well.

Latios should be B tier. It isn't the best like it used to be, and, although it can cause a it of damage, it is a shadow of it's former self. Many pokemon can easily tank it's moves, and then KO back. Kang gets sucker punch, and mega metagross walls it completely.

Also, I'd be looking at porygon2 to be B- tier. It is a very threatening pokemon, and the fact that a download ice beam will destroy most landorus out there, and even some thundurus, and the fact it's bulk is incredible, this pokemon deserves a higher spot. Eviolite turns it into a monster, and with access to bolt beam, and has recovery and trick room, this duck will stick around, and will be very devastating.

Just my opinion

agreed with every of these, especially P2

Porygon2 is incredible tank that is not too easy to KO (only 1 weakness, doesnt care much about Low Kick), and Eviolite gives it great bulk. Not to mention it has great abilities, and it does well against Landorus-T as it gets Ice Beam. Its bulky and lack to Ghost/Dark/Steel weakness makes it unigue from other TR setters...it also gets Recover