VGC 2016 Viability Rankings

Status
Not open for further replies.
Jumpluff seems like a cool niche mon.



  • It has base 110 Spe, meaning that it outspeeds the majority of the meta and outspeeds +2 Xerneas
  • It has Sleep Powder, Rage Powder, Helping Hand Encore and Worry Seed
  • With a sash, it can become really annoying
However,
  • It has garbage 55/55 offenses
  • It has garbage 75/70/95 defenses
  • It dies to Taunt
  • It dies in Trick Room
C+ seems to be a good fit, based on the other things in that tier.
 

Take Azelfie

More flags more fun
It sacrifices youre mega slot for something that dies to everything, I think it was left tacked on when they did the revamp cuz of its fire resist and steel killer but IMO its pbad
 
It sacrifices youre mega slot for something that dies to everything, I think it was left tacked on when they did the revamp cuz of its fire resist and steel killer but IMO its pbad
...Primal Groudon and Primal Kyogre? Hell, even Flare Blitz Talonflame and Sacred Fire Ho-Oh accomplish that too.

Tbh, a lot of the lower ranked Pokemon are questionably there for some reason and needs a serious overhaul. Like, why is normal Tyranitar unranked yet its mega is? I find fucking GOLDUCK to be better than anything that's ranked in C- and that's saying a lot...
 
Speaking of revising lower rankings, why is blaziken in there? It doesn't seem to do anything other than get off a fast high-damage move then dieing right after.

Sorry for being inactive, I had pc issues.
 
Yveltal from A- up to A

Reasoning
  • Fairs well against many common Pokemon. Most notably both Primals, outspeeding both and usually 2HKOing with Foul Play whilst not being OHKOed in return. The bulky set on the Smogon analysis always survives Kyogre's full HP Water Spout. With double Primals on the rise, Yveltal usage has also been rising since it checks both Primals
  • Unpredictable. It can be a bulky set with Foul Play, Snarl and Sucker Punch / Tailwind (this is imo its best set), a physically offensive set or a specially offensive set.
  • Doesn't require support apart from Fairy-type checks, but it itself provides good support to the rest of the team. For starters it's the entire reason that Foul Play teams are viable. Extending from that is depending on its moveset Snarl support, the strongest Sucker Punch in the game by far, and Tailwind (usually it opts for just the first two). It also supports your own Mega Kang's Sucker Punch.
  • With the exceptions of Xerneas and Mega Mawile, no other terrible match-ups and it has at least some use against every other common Pokemon. This is reflective of its ability to simultaneously deal large damage to most things whilst having good bulk
 
still think zekrom should be B or even C.

having decent success with soak gimmick

nothing makes me laugh harder then seeing PG getting OHKO by Bolt strike after soak.
 
having decent success with soak gimmick
This one sentence sums up why it won't go near B.

It has too bad of a time against pretty much everything else. Better off with Kyurem-Black instead, that way you don't get KO'd by earthquakes and make landorus think twice about switching in on it with the threat of ice stab attacks
 
This one sentence sums up why it won't go near B.

It has too bad of a time against pretty much everything else. Better off with Kyurem-Black instead, that way you don't get KO'd by earthquakes and make landorus think twice about switching in on it with the threat of ice stab attacks
at that point you might as well run something not shit like weavile instead of cuckurem-black
 
I know this thread is kinda dead but I feel the rankings need some real updating. Bronzong is still in the B rankings when it clearly should be in the A ranks, poor Zapdos hasn't even been ranked when it could easily be somewhere in the B ranks, Liepard is still A- for whatever reason and Kyurem-W is B- while Palkia and Ho-Oh are B+.

I haven't been playing VGC that much but I think people can agree that those rankings have become outdated. So it'd be real nice if people more knowledgable than me would share their thoughts on the viability rankings.
 

Energy

Please tell me why do we worry
is a Tiering Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
We could definitely update this. Bronzong can easily be moved to A- it did amazing at US Nationals. I hesitate to say A or A+ because with a fire weakness it takes more skill to play than Cress. Talonflame probably isn't A+ material anymore, I think it should be A or maybe A- because it doesnt do enough vs Cresselia teams unless Banded. Regular Kyogre should be ranked probably around C. It hasn't had much success that I know of in competitions but Scarf Ogre is certainly viable. Scrafty and Hitmontop both deserved to be ranked as well probably in C+, Scrafty especially has had success in competition and has done well on ladder. Liepard should probably be dropped into B. I think Blaziken can be removed entirely or dropped to C- because nobody uses it. On paper its good but you need to lead perfectly because it just trades itself. Palkia is definitely not as viable as Dialga and can probably be dropped half a rank.
 

Jibaku

Who let marco in here????
is a Forum Moderatoris a Team Rater Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Live Chat Contributor Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Champion
Moderator
Might as well throw in my thoughts on this

S:
Primal Groudon, Xerneas, Primal Kyogre

***
A+:
Mega Kangaskhan, Mega Salamence, Smeargle, Mega Rayquaza

A:
Cresselia, Thundurus, Yveltal, Bronzong, Mega Gengar

A-:
Dialga, Amoonguss, Gengar (regular), Rayquaza (regular), Ferrothorn, Talonflame, Crobat, Weavile, Whimsicott, Landorus-T, Zapdos, Mega Mawile

***

B+:
Kyurem-W, Togekiss, Raichu, Scrafty, Palkia, Mega Manectric

B:
Scizor, Ho-Oh, Mewtwo (regular), Kyogre (regular), Liepard, Hitmontop, Meowstic, Infernape, Clefairy, Mienshao, Sableye, Ditto

B-:
Terrakion, Giratina-O, Greninja, Aegislash, Gothitelle
***

C tier gets into fringe viable mons (Jumpluff, Venusaur, Ludicolo, Lapras, etc) which I don't want to get into right now.


Some extra notes:
- I still think Zong sucks but can't argue w/ results lol.
- Smeargle and Xerneas are the most metagame warping Pokemon in the game.
- Regular Rayquaza's tiering assumes that your team is running an alternative meta in most situations.
 
Last edited:
I like Jibaku's list

I have minor alterations with the list but only by a subrank, and I definitely think Jibaku's list is reflective of the metagame. Would be happy to use his list.

Might as well throw in my thoughts on this

S:
Primal Groudon, Xerneas, Primal Kyogre

***
A+:
Mega Kangaskhan, Mega Salamence, Smeargle, Mega Rayquaza

A:
Cresselia, Thundurus, Yveltal, Bronzong, Rayquaza (regular)

A-:
Dialga, Amoonguss, Gengar (regular), Ferrothorn, Talonflame, Crobat, Weavile, Landorus-T, Mega Mawile, Mega Gengar

***

B+:
Kyurem-W, Togekiss, Raichu, Scrafty, Palkia, Mega Manectric, Zapdos, Whimsicott

B:
Scizor, Ho-Oh, Mewtwo (regular), Kyogre (regular), Liepard, Hitmontop, Meowstic, Infernape, Clefairy, Mienshao, Sableye, Ditto

B-:
Terrakion, Giratina-O, Greninja, Aegislash, Gothitelle, Jumpluff
***

C tier gets into fringe viable mons (Jumpluff, Venusaur, Ludicolo, Lapras, etc) which I don't want to get into right now.


Some extra notes:
- I still think Zong sucks but can't argue w/ results lol.
- Smeargle and Xerneas are the most metagame warping Pokemon in the game.
- Regular Rayquaza's tiering assumes that your team is running an alternative meta in most situations.
My reasons for the edits to Jibaku's list
  • Rayquaza: I find regular Rayquaza is at it's strongest on RayOgre. When facing those teams, it's not really Kyogre or Rayquaza individually I fear, but the duo together. It checks many of Kyogre's checks well. Even without the Mega evo, Ray still hits hard with Dragon Ascent. ESpeed is great at finishing off stuff that survives Dragon Ascent or one of Kyogre's attacks. And that Sash pretty much ensures Ray is getting off two hits before going down (DA + ES). The last move is also handy as Ray only needs DA + ES + Protect to function, so that last move can be dedicated to supporting the team as you wish, for example Overheat for Ferrothorn or Draco Meteor for a hard-hitting special attack (hi PDon) or for checking MMence in a pinch obviously with Sash).
  • Mega Gengar: I feel it's too hit-and-miss to be A since it's very dependent on calling what your opponent is going to bring to the match, and often the opponent can guess it's role just from looking at your team e.g. Crobat on the team, it's designed to check Big 6, and gravity users on the team give away that it's going to abuse it.
  • Zapdos: I think it's a good Pokemon, but there's the old-age issue of justifying Zapdos over Thundurus. Yes Zapdos is bulkier, but often I find the extra bulk is not worth the utility of Prankster over a bulky Thundurus set which I find has enough bulk for the job. Thundurus also has the guessing game of whether it's a 4/252/252 Sash spread or a bulky spread
  • Whimsicott: I don't see what it has over the other Prankster Pokemon to justify being in A- rank. Whilst it has prankster Tailwind, I rather have Talonflame and Crobat for the job who fair better against Xerneas and Fake Out. Grasswhistle is very annoying, but it's only reliable on Gravity teams which (1) are obvious on team preview and (2) i give the credit more to the gravity user than Whimsicott itself (3) I find Mega Gengar more dangerous under Gravity since it doesn't fear Fake Out, has Shadow Tag, better bulk and less exploitable weaknesses
  • Jumpluff: I actually fear Jumpluff more than all the other Pokemon in B-. It forces you to use specific Pokemon in order to check it, and your opponent could very well take advantage of that in terms of what he brings to the field. Many of Jumpluff's checks like Thundurus don't fair well against PDon, particularly a HH boosted PDon if you're going to Taunt Jumpluff. And it's Speed is amazing - outspeeding Geo Xerneas and many Pokemon under Tailwind in the sun is a god send.
Other things I'm not so sure of
  • Greninja down to C+. I often see it as a drag on the team. Even though it hits many Pokemon hard, it's very speed dependent and it can't do anything to stop the opponent from getting a speed advantage - at least Weavile has Fake Out. I also find it commonly doens't hit hard enough and is reliant on SE hits. Which drastically hinders it against Pokemon like PDon and Mega Kang who just tank the hit and then unleash a more threatening attack afterwards. I'm not sure since I almost always see Greninja being used by bad players though where I just get my speed advantage up on it, tank the hit from it, and then plow through the opponent's team without resistance from my opponents.
 

Jibaku

Who let marco in here????
is a Forum Moderatoris a Team Rater Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Live Chat Contributor Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Champion
Moderator
@ Rayquaza

The list also assumes Rayquaza on other archetypes such as XRay or Raydon. In both of those cases, regular Rayquaza is notably rarer, as the mega's increased speed and power are more important there (whereas with RayOgre, it can still fulfill the archetype's primary goal of sniping Groudon with its base forme).

@ Mega Gengar

I think Mega Gengar is underrated. A big part of MGengar is its strong team preview presence: Before you reveal Mega Gengar's set to your opponent, they have to fear a lot of different moves coming from it (or even its item choice). Having a psychological edge is pretty important as there's a decent amount of flowcharting in this meta and Gengar is pretty good at causing uncertainties. You think your Groudon is safe? Well it's locked in and Gengar can snipe it with HP Water any time. Now that might make MGengar sound a bit gimmicky, but given any 4 moves it'll have a good matchup against most Pokemon in the meta and can extend that lead by trapping them. A taunted, Shadow Tagged Smeargle or Crobat may as well leave your opponent in a 1v2 for the rest of the game. Fast Will-O-Wisp is also very crippling, severely weakening the likes of Weavile, Mega kangaskhan, and Mega Rayquaza.

Some may argue that the increased offense in this meta reduces the impact of switching and therefore weakening Shadow Tag. However, I think that a timely Shadow Tag snipe is still very game-ending given how teams are balanced on a knife's edge.

@ Zapdos

Zapdos's primary advantages are Tailwind and the ability to deter Fake Outs with the help of Static. Thundurus's form of Speed control can be nullified by Quick Guard, Crafty Shield, Lightning Rod, and Groudon itself is immune to it. In a sense, Zapdos can provide your team with a "situationally more reliable" speed control while maintaining the same advantages of being an Electric/Flying type as Thundurus (bird counter, primal/rayogre check, etc).

@ Whimsicott

Prankster Safeguard, Encore, and Fairy STAB are some advantages it has over other Pranksters, along with the team preview pressure of having a billion viable moves to cheese you with. Its offensive pressure is actually quite solid and may be better than Thundurus's because its STABs are really good and Life Orb Whimsicott is actually not a joke. It's also an alright counterpick to the XRay teams on the rise, something Thundurus struggles against.

@ Jumpluff

Honestly pretty one dimensional. I believe Arash himself said it sucks and its purpose was very limited, although it did cover an important one. Crafty Shield Smeargle being standard does it no justice either. Reliance on Chlorophyll is an issue when Xerneas Rayquaza is a thing nowadays.
 
Last edited:
@ Zapdos

Zapdos's primary advantages are Tailwind and the ability to deter Fake Outs with the help of Static. Thundurus's form of Speed control can be nullified by Quick Guard, Crafty Shield, Lightning Rod, and Groudon itself is immune to it. In a sense, Zapdos can provide your team with a "situationally more reliable" speed control while maintaining the same advantages of being an Electric/Flying type as Thundurus (bird counter, primal/rayogre check, etc).
Zapdos can run T-Wave too, the lack of Prankster goes right through Quick Guard and odd as it may sound, no one really expects it. Tailwind + T-Wave isn't too absurd but does restrict move slots. Zapdos usually beats Thundy 1v1 too with Roost.

@ Whimsicott

Prankster Safeguard, Encore, and Fairy STAB are some advantages it has over other Pranksters, along with the team preview pressure of having a billion viable moves to cheese you with. Its offensive pressure is actually quite solid and may be better than Thundurus's because its STABs are really good and Life Orb Whimsicott is actually not a joke. It's also an alright counterpick to the XRay teams on the rise, something Thundurus struggles against.
LO whimsicott I am very curious on; Moonblast / Tailwind / Encore / Giga Drain or something?
 
Zapdos is definitely a nice paralyzing machine that discourages Kanga from attacking it and can punish passive plays with t-wave although it can struggle finding a moveslot for it and it can counter Trick Room with Roar and the occasional Geomancy setup so I have been fond of it but i see little point in roost as it is ohko'd/2hko'd by so much stuff in this meta so you are generally better off providing support or attack. Don't know if it should be A- with likes of Dialga and Mega Mawile in Jibaku's hypothetical rankings but I can see it in B+.

LO whimsicott I am very curious on; Moonblast / Tailwind / Encore / Giga Drain or something?
Pretty sure that's it except the only grass attack to go for in this meta is Grass Knot. Everything is so heavy so you will almost always hit harder than with Giga Drain and the recovery isn't worth it.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.