Resource VGC 2018 Viability Rankings

#51
I really think rotom heat should be higher. It can take on almost half of everything in A, either walling or OHKO-ing them. Landorus is shut down by hp ice, heatran and Tapu koko literally cannot touch it, as well as Celesteela, amoonguss, megazard and salamence, minus Draco meteor. Aegislash is OHKOed as well, I believe, although I have to do some more calcs.
Pyritie i would like to point out that a new and upcoming 'core' on high sd ladder is zardy, koko, kartana with snorlax, cress, and lando-t. Snorlax does indeed hit hard and has potential, but its bulk is lackluster compared to vgc17. It requires way more support then last year, and it either needs a dedicated team or 2-3 mons with specific movesets with moves such as redirection/ally switch to do well. It should really B+ rather then A-, as the mons in the A- tier aside from lax require substanially less support if any at all to properly function on teams. The kartana on this team is believe it or not a twind berry set. Also Stakataka shouldn't be B+, it should B-/B. Compared to the other mons in the B+ tier, it is much weaker and requires much more support.
would honestly put aegislash to S too, besides Landorus-T and Mence into A and Mega Kang + Mega ZardY + Mega Metagross to A+.
Thanks for the input guys but I'd like to focus on just a few pokemon at a time so we can keep this thread active for longer and don't have a million opinions going on at once. I know the existing mon rankings aren't very accurate at the moment, they're just placeholders from SM BSD, and I know the meta's gonna be significantly different thanks to the new UBs and tutor moves.
 
#52
I feel like its way too early for this, but whatever ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • Goodish support mon. Lightning Rod is very helpful tool when partnered with Fini. I feel like it does pretty much the same job as before, so I guess B- is where it belongs.
  • Cannot judge. I guess the fact that Zard Y is probably even more common than in 2015 can make its surprise value pretty keks in BO1 matchups, so I guess its more or less the same as in 2015. Other than that, meh. C+.
  • I cant say, I haven't seen a single Rhyperior yet. I feel like Stakataka is better, though STAB EQ is quite cool. I guess people are just trying new toys and this is one mon that is just...forgotten. I guess it might later on have decent usage, though, but we will see. Probably for now C+, but I can see it rise.
  • Lightning rod before MEvo + Intimidate + fast + Snarl + volt switch ... I find this mon pretty darn annoying, probably because it screws over both special and physical attackers. Scarf Landorus is also less common as before, so there is that. Somewhere in B. Or maybe I just suck VS it.
  • Been using this one on PS and its been decent so far. Fairy weakness sucks but in the end if you got mons that can deal with Lele/Fini/Koko (wide guard is enough for latter because its only Fairy move is DGleam) it can be very powerful, and on certain matchups it can be stupidly powerful. Sejun is also using it currently and he actually states that "its pretty good", and its on top 30 usage on Battle Spot (might be new toy syndrome but we will see). This mon is hard to judge tho because how matchup dependent it is (it either dies horribly or it destroys entire team). The mon kinda fits the description of both C and B rank, it does require a crapton of support but the reward is potentially large. It could go anywhere between as low as C- or as high as B or even B+, depending how meta evolves. I would put it to either C+ or B-. It is IMO much better than quite a few mons in C+ and even in B+, tho I guess better solution would be drop those mons instead of bumping Kommo even higher.
  • Meh. Weak, frail, not too fast. Might as well use Raichu, tbh, though it does have still a few tools so I guess it is okayish for somewhere in C.
There are quite a few other mons that I really disagree how they are positioned, though majority of those are around B or lower so I wont list them yet (unless you want).

One I would like to point out is Incineroar, which certainly should likely be much higher than C, because for some odd reason it sees quite a lot of usage to the point its top 30 in Battle Spot. It probably necessarily isn't great, but the fact its top 30 likely means that it is likely somewhat okay and much better than some other C-rank mons like Raichu-A, Mudsdale and Virizion. It can hit Cresselia and Aegi hard, it has Fake Out, it has in general good movepool and coverage. Now, if it only had Intimidate...imagine how good it would be then.

I feel like the C-rank and low-B in general is a mess with mons that are much better than others in same rankings. Personally, given how deep the VGC 2018 is going to be, I would split C rank to C and D ranks, and then add "E rank" for mons that are "too shitty, dont use", but thats just me. D rank doesnt necessarily need to have "D+" and "D-". Think there was a single "D-rank" in 2015 viability rankings.

Then again, like I already said, this is very early meta and the list could change quite severely. Just remember when Tapu Fini was considered to be "shitty", "worst Tapu by far" and "unviable" in early stages of VGC 2017, and look what happened few months later...
 
#53
I really think rotom heat should be higher. It can take on almost half of everything in A, either walling or OHKO-ing them. Landorus is shut down by hp ice, heatran and Tapu koko literally cannot touch it, as well as Celesteela, amoonguss, megazard and salamence, minus Draco meteor. Aegislash is OHKOed as well, I believe, although I have to do some more calcs.
i haven't done calcs but i think gigiavolt havoc in terrain would still hurt like a bitch if you're not running bulk. I thought people run speed, but i'm not sure. This is also a rain meta, and also a TR one, and Stak doesn't fuck around
 
#54
Raichu: B- imo. It didn't really get anything new, which isn't necessarily bad since it already had everything it needed to be usable. New gen 7 mechanics such as the mega Speed change, paralysis nerf, and Misty Terrain hurt its supporting power a little bit.

Mega Zard X: I've never seen it or used it so I'll abstain from giving it a ranking out of lack of experience. Theorymonning tells me that it will be just as bad as it was previously though, even though resisting Electric is nice.

Rhyperior: Same lack of experience as above, though I will say that this should probably be unranked. Stakataka does the "super-strong physically bulky TR attacker" way better than it ever could, with the exception of not having a strong EQ which isn't enough to set it apart IMO. There are also better Lightning Rod users as well, including Alolan Marowak for TR teams on which Rhyperior could otherwise carve a niche.

Mega Manectric: This one's a pretty solid B imo. This is the mega to take if you really hate Tapu Koko, and the mega Speed boost helps it out a lot. There's also the fact that the other top megas got nerfs so now running Mega Manectric doesn't have anywhere near the opportunity cost that it did in years past.

Kommo-o: Either Eevee tier or like B-. There's no denying it has one set: Omniboost with Kommonium-Z. In the few battles I've played against it, it's not so unusable despite the existence of Fairies that I'd say C- or something like that, but it definitely takes skill to use properly at a high level, far more so in my opinion than other strong setup mons in the past like Eevee or Xerneas. I think it's a little too early honestly to give this a definitive rank, but it fits the Eevee tier description fairly well I think.

Togedemaru: C/C-. As much as Raichu totally outclasses it, I think the Steel typing is just barely enough for it to eke out a niche, especially now that it has Iron Head. Tapu Lele exists, and with it comes a way to stop the Fake Out that Raichu and Togedemaru like to use. Where all Raichu can do is paralyze Lele with Nuzzle, Togedemaru can at least make it think twice about being on the field. A Steelium Z set is probably the only thing it can do that Raichu doesn't do better, which is at least something
 
#55
Kantonian Raichu has always been one of my favorite Pokémon. It can have a great amalgam of support options, with one of the fastest Fake Outs, Feint, Encore, Fling, Nuzzle (a Thunder Wave that isn't affected by Taunt), and it can actually benefit from Lightning Rod. For me, K-Raichu is a solid B-
It's the best Dragon Dance user, and a physical Pokémon that doesn't fear burn. On the other hand, it may not have the opportunity to setup as well as it does in singles, so I consider it a C- Pokémon.
Stakataka does everything this thing can do and better. Compared to the UB, Rhyperior cannot Skill Swap, cannot set its own Trick Room and doesn't benefit from killing things. C- for me.
Another Pokémon that I'm happy to see coming back, but it now faces a lot of competition as the Electric Pokémon spot, with Zapdos, Koko and the aforementioned Raichu being better than it. It is also generally a waste of a Mega Slot, since there are better Megas to complete your team. C- for me.
This was bad before and it keeps being bad, even with the new Z-Move. It can only start doing something good if it is able to release it's Z-Power, but, the same way Manectric is affected by better Mega Options, I feel like Konmo-o is affected by better Z-Move options. I'd put it into the Eevee tier, since it's completely useless without setting up.
Togedemaru was good while lasted. Raichu is back, and Togedemaru is only a slower version of it that is also weak to fire. It can in fact be a good niche Pokémon if you need something to deal with Tapus and somehow the rest of your team isn't able to do it, so I'd put it into a C/C+.
 
#56
i haven't done calcs but i think gigiavolt havoc in terrain would still hurt like a bitch if you're not running bulk. I thought people run speed, but i'm not sure. This is also a rain meta, and also a TR one, and Stak doesn't fuck around
Yeah, gigavolt havoc is a 2hko with some minor investment. Rotom's overheat CAN 1hko with a boosting item though.
 
#62
zard with bulk and WOW support is always better in VGC than a DD variant. + this year it could be decent if paired with Bulu. BUT the fact that it has still enough weaknesses and there are 5 better mega pokemon there makes it fine in the C+ rank tbh
 
#63
If you want a bulky WOW user why don't you use something that isn't weak to rock and ground? Or something that doesn't gobble up a Mega Stone? Or both?
 
#64
wolfe glick literally went X-2 with this support set in 2015. I know its a different meta now but the bulky support X set worked in the past and could work in the future too. its not bad
 
#65
Rankings update
Raichu: UR -> C+
Mega Charizard X: UR -> C-
Rhyperior: UR -> C- but might be unranked again in the future
Mega Manectric: UR -> B-
Kommo-o: UR -> Eevee tier
Togedemaru: UR -> C- but might be unranked again in the future

Let's talk about:
The A ranks. I'm opening the floor to talk about anything in A+, A, or A- you want to see shifted around. You can also nominate things to join the A ranks here as well.
 
#66
I was just coming to say that Eevee tier fits Kommo-O more than anything - like I said, on some matchups/situations it can be extremely strong, or alternatively it also can be just...useless, and it needs its specific team and is not really easy to use. Will see how it goes in future, though. Will keep using it as it is fun.

As for A rank mons:

A+ -> A. Both of its main attacks received a damage nerf and there are quite a bit more Fairies than there was back in day. Its great for sure, but it requires bit more support than it did for instance like in 2015. Mega Kanga and arguably even MegaGross are easier to slap on teams than this. I would personally probably drop it to A-, but lets take a small steps at once.

A -> A+. Got nerfed; no longer has PuP so it is now very predictable when it comes to what she does, and she is weaker as well. However, she is not really just only nerfed; the Tapu spam and general meta changes made many common Fighting types in 2015 less popular in 2018, and she now has 100 base speed on turn one. Kanga is still extremely splashable and just like always and is probably a best pick when "you need a mega but dont know which one". That IMO just asks for A+. Sure Kanga is not as good as it was but she's still good.

A -> A+. Cress did indeed get a slight nerf with Z-Moves that means that it is now actually possible to OHKO Cresselia without using something absolutely stupid stuff (like CB Megahorn Heracross boosted by HH or something like that). However, I would say she got overall a buff: 50% berries made Cresselia even bigger pain in ass to kill if you dont have a dedicated Z-Move mon to oneshot her. Because of the 50% berries, some Cresselias now tend to run more offensive sets as they can put in more EVs in SpA while still being bulky as shit (even less-bulky Cress wont get oneshotted easily without a Z-Move). There are also some fun tools like Ally Switch to toy around. Also the 50% berries made CM Cress even more aids to fight against than it already was. Basically, she is stupidly versatile with billions of sets and combinations it can run, se is very splashable, is the best TR setter in the meta, in general the best support mon in the meta and forces each team to have at least some form of countering or at least hindering her. With these factor, she certainly asks for A+ if asked from me.

I dont think Aegi deserves S rank. It really isnt worthy to be same tier as the Lando-T, even if the mon is still great and has outstanding features. Its just not Lando-T - Lando-T does its job practically no matter in what team it is and in what situation it is, almost always. Aegi is still slow and thus moves typically last, while its risky in TR as the mon is fragile in blade forme. It also needs knowledge of mindgames with Wide Guard and King Shield to use it in its full potential. It is not that far off from S rank, but I feel like it shouldnt go there.

I also think that Amoonguss could drop to B+, simply because how terrains screw it over and how there are so many mons that can just outright kill it. However, its still the best redirection poke, so I am not 100% certain.
 
#68
of the mons in the A rank:
M-mence A+ -> A althought it is strong, the prevelance of the tapus, lando-t (with av) and zapdos kinda hurt it. Its physical damage is still good, but its less reliable then in previous metas.
Koko A+-> A- Koko is strong, but lando-t, kanga-mega, and other goodstuffs in the A+/A tier really destroy it with little effort. Unless it is z move, it lacks the damage to ko a lot of the common format and generally gets ohkoed back.
Cress A->A+ Cress is an amazing supportive mon. It is the best tr setter/icy wind user in the format for almost every team.
Kanga-mega A->A+ the strongest mega in previous formats still holds the crown with its great bulk, normal typing, and access to fake out. The nerf in gen7 did take it down a notch, but it is still solid and splashable on and balanced type team. It speed also lets it function in twind and tr which is often ideal for bulkier teams. losing PuP did indeed weaken it, but it still hits nearly all the format for a chunk.
Amoongus A- -> A although spore got nerfed with terrains, it still hits all the flying mainstays and can redirect as support. its the best spore, redirection, and tr check in the format.
mega-meta A- ->A stomping tantrum gives it the ability to deal with those pesky steels without worrying about WG. It has amazing typing, speed, offense and defense. it can live a lando-t eq 100% of the time (if not banded) with little to no evs. It can also 2hko nearly everything in the format.
Zapdos A- ->A the best tailwinder in the format. seed items give it extra special bulk, and it can be eved to live nearly any hit (including z moves). even with no offensive investment, it still does great damage on other mons with coverage including tbolt, hp ice, heat wave. 4 spatk evs neutral nature hp ice is a 1-2hko on any lando-t, including av
 
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#69
Also not really related to current rankings but just pointing out that regular Abomasnow is missing while the Mega is in B- (lol). I dont know if thats intentional, but considering that vanilla Abomasnow has generally considered better as whole in past (sash + doesnt waste a megaslot), I feel like it is just missing out in general. I guess it should be a candidate to discuss after we get these mons done.

It seems worse in my eyes than in past, though, but I could be wrong.
 
#70
Agree with everything said here. But mega zardY should be A+ too. If you let it heat wave you once without beating it, itll beat 2 pokemon in 2 turns. Heat wave in the strong from zardY is just too strong + the access to solar beam makes water pokemon tough to switch in to zardY. Heatran is the only „counter“ but some zardY‘s running hp ground for the perfect coverage. After the parental bond nerf it could be the „best“ mega. In Battle Spot WCS is charizardY the most used mega Pokemon right now. And itll raise more. Easily top3 pokemon.
 
#71
Is this really better than DD Mence?
Isnt this a little contradictory? I mean I agree that it's C- but how can it be that low when you think it's the best DD user available?
Being the best DD user for me is enough to rank it, but not enough to do it higher than C-, because it does almost nothing if it doesn't have the opportunity to setup.
 
#72
Agree with everything said here. But mega zardY should be A+ too. If you let it heat wave you once without beating it, itll beat 2 pokemon in 2 turns. Heat wave in the strong from zardY is just too strong + the access to solar beam makes water pokemon tough to switch in to zardY. Heatran is the only „counter“ but some zardY‘s running hp ground for the perfect coverage. After the parental bond nerf it could be the „best“ mega. In Battle Spot WCS is charizardY the most used mega Pokemon right now. And itll raise more. Easily top3 pokemon.
How about rotom-heat? Like I said, this thing walls so many things that it really should be higher.
 
#73
I've been having fun and good results with Shiftry on a Sun team.
Solid pair with Charizard-Y, very under-rated pokemon. Where would you put him?
He's a good supporter, with such sets:

Shiftry (F) @ Focus Sash / (King's Rock if Fling)
Ability: Chlorophyll
Level: 50
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Rash Nature
- Fake Out
- Snarl
- Leaf Storm
- Tailwind/Worry Seed/Fling/Dark Pulse/Knock Off/Focus Blast/...
 
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#74
I've been having fun and good results with Shiftry on a Sun team.
Solid pair with Charizard-Y, very under-rated pokemon. Where would you put him?
He's a good supporter, with such sets:

Shiftry (F) @ Focus Sash / (King's Rock if Fling)
Ability: Chlorophyll
Level: 50
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Rash Nature
- Fake Out
- Snarl
- Leaf Storm
- Tailwind/Worry Seed/Fling/Dark Pulse/Knock Off/Focus Blast/...
Shiftry might have been viable if this was Gen 3/4 and a Drought user was available to take advantage of fast unnerfed Explosion, but Drought Ninetales was introduced in the same generation Explosion was nerfed. These days Shiftry is largely outclassed by Venusaur, as it has higher stats across the board, a more useful offensive STAB in Poison thanks to Dark Pulse not being that strong, and access to Sleep Powder as a form of support. Tools such as Fake Out and Tailwind keep Shiftry from being entirely outclassed, but you'll generally build a stronger team by incorporating those elements into other Pokemon and not using Shiftry; for example, by using Tailwind on Mega Charizard Y. It's worth noting as well that defensive moves like Snarl don't accomplish the offensive goals typically desired by Chlorophyll sweepers.

On that note, I would recommend adding non-mega Venusaur to the viability rankings.
 
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#75
Your first sentence is wrong since Shiftry has been played with Groudon in VGC16 (as a nice anti-meta pokemon), and that we now have two viable Drought user.

I still believe it's a better supporter than Venusaur, mainly because of how reliable Fake Out is compared to Sleep Powder, plus the acces to Snarl, Tailwind, Focus Blast to deal with Tyranitar... Fake Out into Tailwind shouldn't be underestimated. Offensively, while Leaf Storm still does a decent job, other do indeed a better job. It can though also be played Physical with Leaf Blade and Knock Off, depending on what you need, its Atk is actually better than his SpA. It has enough options to make it playable in my opinion.

It's not meta-defining at all, but somewhere in the C-tier ?
 
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