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Discussion in 'Past Format Discussion' started by Solace, Aug 11, 2012.
The Pokemon directly across from it
It copies the Pokémon directly opposite it, one of the few cases where placement matters in doubles. Edit: damn it Biosci.
What are people's thoughts on Hitmontop in the current metagame? In the few dozen matches I've played with my latest team on RM, I literally have not seen a single Hitmontop. Has it fallen out of favor for some reason?
Hitmontop is one of those Pokemon that have proven repeatedly to be a valuble team member, though it's also one of those Pokemon that just doesn't fit my own personal play style. It can be extremely predictable at times, and yet full of surprises in top level play where it's moveset has variation past the usual Wide Guard variety.
The only reason I can think of for it to "fall out of favour" would just be because people may be trying some new things.
Hitmontop's primary utility consists of Fake Out + Intimidate, something no other Pokemon in the game can pull off (until Intimidate Scrafty is released). It also usually packs Sucker Punch.
I used a Hitmontop at the spring regionals. It was pretty effective, however it has a few things you need to be careful of:
1. Metagross, which is pretty darn common, is immune to Intimidate thanks to Clear Body, and will either OHKO with Zen Headbutt or just do a lot of damage in general. I always hated Hitmontop vs Metagross matchups.
2. When you see Hitmontop, 99% of the time you know it's going to carry Fake Out and Sucker Punch. In other words, predictable.
3. Close Combat lacks the amount of power it needs to OHKO anything besides Tyranitar or Bisharp (Assuming they aren't carrying a Chople Berry), even with a Fighting Gem. At least in my opinion.
4. Intimidate is an awesome ability in doubles, but without Technician, Fake Out and Sucker Punch just don't hit very hard unless super effective.
5. Unless it invests in speed, a lot of things outspeed it. It's not uncommon to trade HP EVs for Speed EVs, either.
6. Not good against Trick Room and Flying types, which are very common. Main flying show-stoppers include Salamence (which more often than not ran special sets), the genies, Zapdos, Gyarados. It also can't do a whole lot against non-attacking Cresselia short of whittling it down slowly.
I'm personally a big fan of using Intimidate Hitmontop with an Eject Button myself, though Hitmontop has to survive the hit for Eject Button to trigger. It's not without its problems either.
When Landorus-T becomes legal, I see Hitmontop falling out of favor as an Intimidate abuser, even moreso when Intimidate Scrafty becomes legal.
I have been using standard Top for way longer then I should have, but I feel his utility is so great his numerous weaknesses can be dealt with. Common Psychic and Flying types do very well against him, but with a partner who can help deal with those he can be quite powerful. But any sensible team has options to deal with him, as it is not overly hard. More Cress and Thundurus these days could have created the decrease in usage.
Hitmontop is generally used alongside pokemon that fear Tyranitar (Cress, Latios, Zapdos etc.), and with the latter two also falling out of fashion in favour of others (Thundurus over Zapdos, Salamence over Latios etc.) Hitmontop is only really useful for utility rather than checking certain threats, and in this regard some people just don't need the things Hitmontop brings to the table anymore. Also, Hitmontop is too used and too obvious so people are out to find the next great game-changer. I think the latter is the more common reason.
Honestly, the only real reason Hitmontop was used before was to scare off Terrakion/Tyranitar/etc with Intimidate and CC, and support Cress with Fake Out. Now that I see a lot of teams Double Protecting the first turn and brining in Metagross almost immediately (not to mention both Meta and Thundurus have been rising significantly in the usage ranks), Top's usage really isn't as big as it once was.
How good do you think a Gastrodon/Virizion core would be? I'm trying to think of something that would work effectively vs Terrakion, Thundarus, and Cress. (I figured if i can get something to counter those three, i can get a trio that would be effective vs most of the VGC threat list.) Gastrodon by itself pretty much fits the mission statement well, being immune to Electric moves, and getting access to moves that are Super Effective vs. Terrakion and Thundarus, getting STAB on the former. Cress can't do too much to it, as it's already slow and just takes neutral from it's main attacks. Against the rest of the meta, it has an amazing defensive typing and has Storm Drain, which means it can save a Fire-Type partner from a Watery Grave (unless Surf/Muddy Water would hit the partner too. Which would then make it a thing to consider when picking a team.)
It does have a 4x weakness to Grass, which brings me to the second choice, Virizion. Virizion is a nice pokemon who also happens to, like Gastrodon, get moves that are Super Effective vs. Terrakion and Thundarus, with STAB vs the former. (which in a way would be kind of significant, due to the fact that it can still kind of do what I intend to do with the core if it's Terrakion/Thundarus and a Grass-type) However Icy Wind will be an issue. Against the rest of the Meta, it gets a nice array of resists and has fairly nice bulk, but Ice is probably very common.
I'm wondering if there would be a better partner than Virizion though. The 'mon I'm looking for would resist grass and preferably do good against Water and work well vs. Terrakion, Thundarus, and Cress. One of the two on the latter part would work, but I feel the former is more valuable due to it being the only type that Gastrodon can't threaten that threatens Fire.
I've also considered Volt Absorb Lanturn, but I'm guessing it's too frail to really threaten Terrakion. It would be a nightmare to Thundarus though.
Sucker punch isn't boosted by Technician...did you mean Mach Punch?
Don't forget that one of the main reasons people use Fake Out users in general is to help set up (absorb bulb Ludicolo, TopVolc, Shell Smash Cloyster, Trick Room, etc.) But I agree with you that the rise in popularity of Metagross and Thundurus have taken a significant toll on Hitmontop's usage. Also, Skill Swap has risen in popularity since Worlds, so that could be another reason for Hitmontop's decline in usage.
Is Helping Hand worth using in VGC??
Yes, it's an excellent move for getting KOs you may miss out on normally.
What Pokemon would make good use of the move Helping Hand?
Cress can use Helping Hand, and would be a great user who has much written about. I however am a huge fan of Musharna. Musharna is fairly bulky, has an amazing ability for using helping hand, and a usable special attack stat, albiet not a wide movepool (in my experience.)
For some odd reason I thought Sucker Punch was boosted by Technician. Good call.
Cresselia immediately comes to mind as the premier Helping Hand user, but it's not the only one. Musharna, Latias, and even Hitmontop can pull off a support role effectively with it if used correctly.
Unless you're using it alongside a strong spread move user (and it won't be hit by or 4x resists the move in question, e.g. Cresselia+Garchomp), the best users are mons that don't have much offensive presence of their own, because otherwise you'll usually be better off just double attacking and sticking a coverage/other support move in that slot.
Virizion is quite good as a Helping Hand user, thanks to its immense special bulk. Unlike other HH users, however, Virizion also maintains an offensive presence, thanks to its solid STABs and 108 base speed. Terrakion is also good for the latter reason. If it's a more dedicated Helping Hand user you're looking for, I can only echo the others in saying Cress is probably the best, but Latias and Musharna are also worth considering.
Do none of the great players really use 252/252 spreads anymore (except on a few things like Latios)?
Also, when EVing to survive a specific attack, how do players determine how to split those EVs between HP and the appropriate defense? I know that the EVs in Def/SpD make more of an impact here, but the HP EVs give you bulk on the other spectrum too.
Nah, it's rare for 252/252s these days. It usually does end up in wasted stats. In Wolfey's teams this year there was only one 252/252 spread and that was sashed max speed dragon dance Tyranitar, which needs that 121 speed to get over the many mons with ~170-180 speed after 1 DD.
Like for example, when a good player (such as myself :D) runs say Rampardos, they don't put EVs into its attack stat. That's because each EV contributes less to the already-huge attack stat than it does to the smallish defences. Think how 252def in a blissey reduces damage massively while 252spdef doesn't make a huge difference.
As for HP/defs, ehhh, I just put a bit in both usually. You just know how much in each works, to be honest. Usually I put some in HP then a bit less in whatever I need to defend from more.
Unless the Pokemon's HP is extremely high (Blissey, Chansey) it is always better to invest in HP before/instead of the defenses. 252 HP is basically the same as 252 in Def and SpDef at the same time. But for, say, eviolited Chansey, 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD provides a 13% increase to special bulk at the expense of 9% physical bulk when compared to 252 HP / 252 Def / SpD. This increases Chansey's net bulk, but since it also decreases Chansey's weaker physical side, the decision is really up to personal preference. So in general, HP>defenses.
At least I think that's how it works :P
What is a good nature and EV Spread for a Bulky Thundurus?
Thanks Zog and Dragonking700.
I asked this a few pages ago, and here's the answer I got:
Calm seems to be the consensus nature, but different people use different EV spreads. You can find examples (along with explanations) from Worlds teams here and here.
One reason for the given EV spread and nature: It prevents Porygon-Z from getting Download boosts for its Special Attack. Also, the stray Blizzard or HP Ice is probably a bigger threat than Rock Slide.
QUick question-if you are doing any sort of set up and use Follow me, will it have higher priority than Prankster Taunt? I'm pretty sure it does but I haven't had time to test it.
Yes. Follow Me has +3 priority, Prankster Taunt has +1.
Is Swagger a Good move to use competitively? By using it on your other Pokemon in a double battle to boost their attack (They would be holding a Persim Berry to Avoid Confusion.)
And what Pokemon could be used for this Strategy?