1. New to the forums? Check out our Mentorship Program!
    Our mentors will answer your questions and help you become a part of the community!
  2. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.

VGC Rookie - Trick Room

Discussion in 'BW Other Teams' started by themasterofpuppets, May 3, 2012.

  1. themasterofpuppets

    themasterofpuppets

    Joined:
    May 3, 2012
    Messages:
    2
    Howdy. I'm a fairly well known veteran TCG player who has decided to get into the video games more now that it is increasing in support from the Pokemon company. I've browsed various areas of Smogon for a while now, and am familiar with the site, however, this is my first time making an account, as well as posting. I know there is nowhere better to start if one is serious about getting involved in the VGC.

    I've gone through a few different Pokemon in my Trick Room team practice, and here is my most current. Most of my team is straight from the Strategy Pokedex to my DS, and I've got roughly 40 battles under my belt with the core of the team.
    I would appreciate any kind of help and criticism that could be offered!


    [​IMG]

    Cresselia @ Sitrus Berry
    Ability: Levitate
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
    Nature: Sassy
    - Trick Room
    - Psychic
    - Helping Hand
    - Safeguard

    As per what I've gathered from reading the rules, I shouldn't go into strategy that is really mainstream, such as why Cresselia is chosen to be my Trick Room set up, so I'll only touch on the choices I've made. Sitrus over Mental Herb as I normally pair Cresselia with Amoongus and Rage Powder, so the HP gain later comes in handy more so than the protection that Herb offers. I've gone with Safeguard over either Screen as I was getting tired of my Amoongus losing the Speed-tie with other Amoongus and all my Pokemon being put to sleep before I could eliminate the threat. Helping Hand has been incredibly useful so far in testing, giving the very appreciated support on spread attacks and Giga Drains.

    [​IMG]

    Amoongus @ Mental Herb
    Ability: Effect Spore
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
    Nature: Sassy
    - Spore
    - Rage Powder
    - Giga Drain
    - Protect

    So far I have loved Amoongus. He's been on my team since I first made it, while others have been cut. My usual opening is Amoongus with Cresselia, throwing up Rage Powder and Trick Room turn one. This is probably very predictable to veteran players, however so far from my limited experience it's been the most effective way to get it going (until I learned the hard way that Fake Out and Rage Powder have the same priority!). I have greatly considered switching Protect with Sludge Bomb to aid in dealing with Ludicolo.

    [​IMG]

    Hitmontop @ Life Orb
    Ability: Technician
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe
    Nature: Adamant
    - Fake Out
    - Mach Punch
    - Wide Guard
    - Sucker Punch

    My other lead when Amoongus seems lacking. Still have problems from Fake Out when used by Pokemon that can outspeed my Top's Fake Out. Fairly decent Physical hitter after his lead purpose has been served. I used to use Hariyama for a similar purpose while hitting harder when Trick Room was up, but have since switched to Hitmontop for reliability. I'm not quite sure whom I like better so far. I really like his priority Mach Punch, however upon suggestion I will be testing with Close Combat with Intimidate in its place.

    [​IMG]

    Chandelure @ Fire Gem
    Ability: Flash Fire
    EVs:252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
    Nature: Quiet
    - Heat Wave
    - Shadow Ball
    - Protect
    - Trick Room

    My other Trick Room user. I used to have more than just Chandelure and Cresselia on my team for throwing up Trick Room, but over time my Bronzong and Jellicent have been cut, and these are the two whom are left. Chandelure could be useful in aiding my Fake Out problems, however, he's frail enough that he could just be taken out with an early Earthquake and/or Surf. It doesn't seem very smart to throw my Trick Room eggs into this fairly fragile basket until my prediction for Rage Powder vs. Wide Guard opening is better. Although an amazing Special sweeper, I've found myself leaving him behind more often than I would have thought.

    [​IMG]

    Marowak @ Thick Club
    Ability: Lightningrod
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
    Nature: Brave
    - Fire Punch
    - Rock Slide
    - Earthquake
    - Detect

    My main Physical sweeper. Used to use Rhyperior instead, however realized that Marowak hit harder more consistently, while not having as many weaknesses. Cresselia, as stated in a comment below, is really the only player on my team whom can avoid an Earthquake without too much trouble, which has been inconvenient at times.

    [​IMG]

    Abomasnow @ Focus Sash
    Ability: Snow Warning
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA
    Nature: Quiet
    - Blizzard
    - Giga Drain
    - Ice Shard
    - Protect

    Needed another Special hitter besides Chandelure, as well as a soft Rain counter, and Abomasnow seemed like a great choice. Jellicent used to be my Ice Beam coverage, however Abomasnow seems to be a suitable replacement. The chip from Hail has helped me time and time again, alone making Abomasnow a potent addition.


    Cresselia, Chandelure, and Amoongus are the three that have always remained a constant on my team, while the other three at any given time have been instead the aforementioned Jellicent, Bronzong, Hariyama, and Rhyperior, as well as a not mentioned Lv 1 Aron gimmick that actually worked quite a bit better than I would have thought, which is something I thought worth mentioning.

    So far from my experience what I have the most trouble with is setting up through opposing Fake Outs. The best way to counter that would seemingly be to swap Cresselia out with Dusclops, however, being rather novice I can't say for sure. I would bet that there are some glaring weaknesses of some kind that my team holds to which I am not aware, so again any criticism would be well appreciated!

    Hopefully I haven't been too boring with my text, nor have I violated any rules on my first post. Thanks for reading!
  2. The Knights of Wario Land

    The Knights of Wario Land

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2012
    Messages:
    819
    Looking over it a few times, I see this is a very good Trick Room team you've got going on here. Here are some of my comments:

    -Hitmontop should really be packing Intimidate over Technician, crippling other Hitmontop and Physical attackers is always more of a benefit over some extra power with Mach Punch. In that case, put Close Combat over Mach Punch, it's a universally better STAB.
    -Keep Cresselia in, having two Ghost-types really isn't the smartest thing in the world, and Cresselia provides better support moves. Maybe try swapping Helping Hand with Protect, blocking Fake Out first turn, and allowing you to setup Trick Room the next turn if you really feel like leading it first.
    -Be aware that your entire team except Cresselia is vulnerable to Marowak's insane Earthquake, I'd suggest giving Chandelure an Air Balloon because of this, and make sure you have a good plan of attack before this.
    -Just an aesthetic detail, your descriptions could be a wee bit longer, to fully explain what every teammate does and doesn't do.
  3. Drifblim

    Drifblim

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2011
    Messages:
    550
    Cress+Amoonguss is not a very good lead. Both lack significant attacking power, and Chandelure or Metagross can do heavy damage to both while not taking much in return.

    Chandelure's typing can be an issue when setting up TR, a Sash would contradict the HP EVs but paired with Hitmontop's Fake Out you would be very likely to set up. Abomasnow's Sash is also important but his role on the team isn't as major.

    Dusclops can be a really good setter. Just remember that if he is your last pokemon you have probably already lost, his main job is crippling stuff with Will O Wisp and maybe taking HP with Pain Split.

    Rain could pretty much tear through this. Top and Cress is a good counter lead, but all of your pokemon will be taking insane damage from Surf and Hydrop Pump. Abomasnow will be helpful to negate their weather boost but none of this team can hurt Rain very hard without being killed by it in the meantime.
  4. MavsObbession

    MavsObbession

    Joined:
    May 8, 2011
    Messages:
    299
    Hey there, themasterofpuppets, and welcome to Smogon! For a rookie, this is a great team! But of course, improvements can be made. Now, on to the rate!

    Leads, Movesets and Threats

    I agree with Drifblim; Cresselia + Amoonguss isn't a good lead, just because both are supportive Pokémon. Neither one of them are sweepers or attackers. Instead, you should have a Cresselia + Hitmontop or Scrafty lead. If you want to set up Trick Room, you should at least have a Fake Out Attacker as a lead. Like you said, setting up Trick Room is difficult because of opposing Fake Outs. This is precisely why you should have a Fake Out Attacker as a lead yourself.

    Sitrus Berry > Mental Herb on Amoonguss. Taunters are very uncommon in this year's VGC compared to VGC '11, so you shouldn't worry about Amoonguss being Taunted. Although, if you find that your Amoonguss gets Taunted often, switch back to Mental Herb. But for now, keep the Sitrus Berry.

    Instead of Hitmontop being a Priority Attacker with Technician, make him an Intimidate Supporter. Physical attackers are very common this year, such as Tyranitar, Excadrill, Scizor, Hitmontop, etc. The -1 Attack against these Pokémon are more useful than Technician boosted Mach Punch. Also, Close Combat > Mach Punch; it has more STAB and it can OHKO the likes of Terrakion (109.6% - 130.1% damage) and Tyranitar (146.9% - 175.8% damage).

    Rain Teams are a significant threat, as they can easily Double Surf or use Hydro Pump to destroy you before you even have a chance to set up.

    Solutions

    You can easily check Rain Teams with Gastrodon, as it can absorb Water-type attacks with Storm Drain. It also fits well with Trick Room because Gastro has a base 39 Speed stat. Here's a good set for him:

    Defensive Gastrodon (open)
    Gastrodon @ Rindo Berry | Storm Drain
    Relaxed (+Def, -Spe) | 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
    Muddy Water / Ice Beam / Earth Power / Protect or Recover


    The only major threat to Gastrodon is probably Ludicolo, just because it can easily use Giga Drain to OHKO Gastro. Just be sure to effectively switch in to Water-type attacks. That way, Gastrodon can get SpA boosts. Note that Gastrodon cannot take on Rain Teams by himself, but he's an awesome check when you need him! Be sure to pair him up with a sweeper on your team, Gastro is mostly defensive. STAB Muddy Water is like Surf with the potential accuracy hax, Ice Beam can significantly damage minor threats such as Garchomp and Latios, while STAB Earth Power is for coverage against Sandstorm teams. Protect is good for blocking Giga Drain or Grass Knot, but Recover is also effective to restore Gastrodon's bulky HP.

    Other Options

    You can also have Jellicent as a Trick Room setter; it's a good check to Rain Teams with Water Absorb. Here's a good set for Trick Room Jellicent:

    Trick Room Jellicent (open)
    Jellicent @ Wacan Berry | Water Absorb
    Quiet (+SpA, -Spe) | 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA | 0 Spe IV's
    Trick Room / Scald / Shadow Ball / Will-O-Wisp


    Jellicent is weak to physical attackers such as Bisharp, Scrafty and TTar, which is why he has Will-O-Wisp and Scald for the potential burn on those threats. Shadow Ball will leave a mark on Latios and Latias, and of course Trick Room is there because it's a Trick Room setter. XD Also, Jellicent cannot get Faked Out because of it's Ghost typing, so that's another plus.

    Hope I helped!
  5. El Scorcho

    El Scorcho

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2010
    Messages:
    52
    I'd definitely recommend Mental herb over Sitrus berry on Amoonguss. Amoonguss is dead weight when taunted. Priority taunt users (Tornadus, Sableye, Whimsicott) will have you completely shut down otherwise. Taunt is probably the largest threat to Amoonguss, ignoring that threat would definitely come back to haunt you.
  6. themasterofpuppets

    themasterofpuppets

    Joined:
    May 3, 2012
    Messages:
    2
    Thanks for all the input, folks! I really do appreciate it.
    Some responses:

    Opening Jellicent/Amoongus seems like a better opening than my prior Cress/Amoongus, due to throwing up Trick Room, keeping safe with Powder and Ghost typing, and then being able to hit harder than Cress could hope to with Scald/Shadow Ball or by Burning a threat. I love the suggestion, however, worry if Jellicent is still a hard enough hitter to get things going early.

    I've tried opening Fake Out Top against Fake Out opponents, however, it so far it has either been against Mienshao, which outspeeds Top, or against other Tops, where it will likely come down to a speed-tie, which can be frustrating.

    I dig the two Pokemon suggestions, and would love to include them in my team, however, I really am not sure what to cut to add them in. I feel like the only swaps that could really be made would be to remove Abomasnow, being that with the inclusion of the other two my Rain Dance match up should improve enough to where I don't need him, and Chandelure to avoid doubling up weaknesses while still retaining a decent Special presence. Thoughts on this?

    Thanks again for the feedback, and I appreciate the compliments on me having put together a decent team for a novice. I look forward to becoming more involved with the site in the future!
  7. CakesOfSpan

    CakesOfSpan

    Joined:
    May 16, 2009
    Messages:
    217
    First and foremost, we are glad to see that you have picked up VGC and really hope you stick with it! From the looks of it, you are off to a strong start. I must admit that at first glance, this team does not look like a 'Rookie Team' at all. Although many top-tier players would suggest that using Trick Room limits your team's potential, I would beg to differ. IMO, Trick Room deserves more use!

    Right, so now to the actual rate. First off I'll start by looking at Cresselia. The set looks fine, although there are some big threats that you need to address. We'll start by identifying Cresselia's biggest threats in the current metagame: Tyranitar, Scizor, and Chandelure. Although Chandelure can have fun with a solid portion of your team, running max SpeDef allows you to deal with Chandelure quite well. However, Tyranitar and Scizor both pose huge threats, especially to a standard Amoonguss + Cresselia lead. Not all Scizors (Scizi?) run Acrobatics + Flight Gem, it should always be considered when planning your moves. On the other hand, Bug Bite hits you hard and prevents recovery due to the fact that Sitrus has been removed. You do have the option of leading with Chandelure, although by running Quiet you will take a potential Acrobatics (or Crunch/Rock Slide in the case of Tyranitar) to the face before you get any attack off. For all these reasons and more, I will reluctantly second the notion of going with 'Intimi-Top.' I believe that 'Tech-Top' deserves more usage, but this team needs the attack drop support and ability to (possibly) KO Scizor/Tyranitar before they can attack.

    Another way of working around your biggest threat, Scizor, is to run Modest Chandelure with 31 speed EVs as opposed to Quiet. This allows you to get some crucial KO's outside of Trick Room while simultaneously aiding in shutting down opposing TR teams. The downside to this change would be the unpredictability of your speed compared to your teammates. Luckily pokemon suck as Abomasnow can be of help, considering that hail (and sand) are very useful in terms of figuring out speed order on the playing field.

    I would also like to point out another threat that I have been coming across a lot lately, Breloom. While it is great that you run Safeguard, its not going to help if you are outran. While you do have Fake Out + Rage Powder Support, I don't see many possibilities if your opponent decides to lead Fake Out + Spore. For example, lets take Infernape + Breloom. Perhaps you could stall a turn with Fake Out, or double protecting (depending on your lead) but other than that you don't have a solid response. Personally I have found the best counter to this includes running a surprise Lum Berry somewhere on your team. It makes the most sense on Amoonguss, since he can re-direct attacks while Cresselia/Chandelure gets Trick Room set up. Of course, this is not the only option. Chesto+Rest Cresselia is another legitimate counter, although you would likely have to scratch off Safeguard.

    Taking a step back, the first four mons on your team provide you with a solid core. I don't have much experience with either Abomasnow or Marowak, although I do believe you have some better options. As you stated, EQ doesn't synergize (yay new words) well with your team, and Lighteningrod seems silly since non of your mons take 2x damage from electric attacks. I would go out and search from something bulkier, perhaps Rhyperior? Have fun and test stuff out. :D

    Oh oh wait, I got it. Alright, so try this out. I realized that having either a Water or an Electric STAB could be helpful to your team, and as previously mentioned EQ doesn't synergize well. Solution? Rotom-W! Solid bulk, great typing, and an ability that would compliment your EQ mon well. In addition to this, it provides some speed to your team and could help out with both Tyranitar and Scizor (and Metagross, forgot to talk about him!) HP Ice would probably be needed, seeing as you would be without an Dragon counters (aka Garchomp). Then again this leaves you with any weather control which can be frustrating. Mmmmmm......... Maybe put Hippowdon in place of Marowak? Great bulk, gets sand up, and provides you with the STAB EQ (albeit less power.)

    So I just let my mind run for a while, let's see if I can organize some possible changes...

    Show Hide

    [​IMG]
    Hippowdon @ Leftovers/Earth Gem
    Trait: Sand Stream
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 6 Whatevz
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Earthquake
    - Crunch
    - Protect
    - Rock Slide/Fire Fang/Ice Fang

    [​IMG]

    Just look here.


    Cheers! :D

    EDIT: Upon further review, if you would like to use Marowak, then you should consider Boomerang instead of Earthquake. Although it has 90 accuracy, it does not target your ally and could prove helpful in hitting through sash'd mons. In addition, it is more powerful (to a single opponent) than Earthquake.
  8. MavsObbession

    MavsObbession

    Joined:
    May 8, 2011
    Messages:
    299
    That's true, but like I said, Taunters are uncommon compared to last year's VGC. But I also said to stick to Mental Herb if he found that Taunt was bothering him.
  9. LPFan

    LPFan

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2011
    Messages:
    317
    Very good start on a VGC team for a rookie. I would rate it with full descriptions of what you should do, but it would change the whole concept of the team, but on a scale from 1 to I rate 8/10. Like others said change Technician to Intimidate, it really helps your team mates take less damage from common spread moves like Rock Slide, Earthquake, etc.

    Anyways, good luck with your team!

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)