VGC15 General Metagame Discussion

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Discuss anything related to the VGC15 metagame here, basically. Anything regarding local premier challenges, regionals, etc can go in separate threads if need be.

For simple questions, such as "what nature for (Pokemon)?" go here.
For questions regarding VGC15 rules, such as "is this Pokemon allowed?" go here.

Feel free to post experiences with the Battle Spot Doubles in-game and/or Pokemon Showdown ladder, interesting sets/teams, etc.

Also note the official stats on the Pokemon Global Link regarding each and every Pokemon allowed in VGC15. If you haven't checked that out yet, it's certainly worth a look. Here's an example of the kind of stats you should see on the Global Link: http://i.imgur.com/wOkKX2J.png
 
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Well, to start us off, what do you guys think about Togekiss's new Fairy-typing? Now that Steel has become a better offensive type and Fighting-types are generally relegated to checking Kangaskhan, is the new typing better or worse than Normal/Flying?
 
Defensively, I think it actually hurt her a bit - 4 resistances isn't really that much, and one one of her quad resists being useful, and it comes at the cost of two new weaknesses. I'd rather have the 3 weaknesses and 2 resistances than the 5 weaknesses and 4 resistances imo, but that could just be me.

Offensively, though, it's a massive boon. The Fairy-type is one of the best attacking types in a metagame dominated by weaknesses/neutralities, which makes it a much better offensive support. It still has the defensive capabilities to be a great user of Follow Me, and can wear down the opponent pretty well with Dazzling Gleam + Air Slash. She also retains her Paraflinch support, which many teams enjoy.
 
Well, to start us off, what do you guys think about Togekiss's new Fairy-typing? Now that Steel has become a better offensive type and Fighting-types are generally relegated to checking Kangaskhan, is the new typing better or worse than Normal/Flying?
It makes Togekiss a really good replacement for Amoonguss. Now Amoonguss isn't the only usable Rage Powder user. While on paper Fairy seems to be a nerf, giving her only 2 more resitances in fighting and dark, as well as a dragon immunity, and adding a few weaknesses-- Togekiss' bulk was always enough that that wasn't a problem. What was a problem for her was the metagame around her. Dragons were simply too strong, and she couldn't get enough bulk or common teammates to help her be a part of the game.

The introduction of Fairy typing helped her because it gave Dragons a threat-- and gave her STAB on one of the best new forms of spread attack in Dazzling Gleam. While it didn't necessarily help Togekiss, it didn't hurt.

To further look into this, look into the usage stats of her resistances and immunities, vs the resistance stats of her weaknesses. In the top 12 pokemon
Kangaskhan-- normal effectiveness against Normal, resists Low Kick (used 57+%), Resists Sucker Punch (used 65+%),
Landorus-- Immune to STAB Earthquake, weak to Rock Slide, resists Knock Off, Quad resists U-turn
Talonflame-- normal eff against Brave Bird, normal Eff against Flare Blitz or Overheat
Sylveon-- Normal effect against Hyper Voice, Normal effect against rare Shadow Ball
Aegislash-- normal effect against Shadow Ball or Shadow Sneak, weak to Flash Cannon, resists rare Sacred Sword
Bisharp-- resists Knock off and Sucker Punch, weak to Iron Head
Rotom-- Weak to Thunderbolt/Volt Switch, normal effect Hydro Pump
Mence-- Immune to Outrage/Draco, Normal effectiveness against Return/Hyper Voice, immune to Earthquake, Normal effect Fire Blast
Amoonguss-- Resists Giga Drain
Charizard Y-- Normal Effect Heat Wave, Normal effect Over Heat, resist Solarbeam
Thundurus-- Weak to Thunderbolt, Weak to hidden power Ice
Garchomp-- Immune to Earthquake, Immune to Dragon Claw, weak to rock slide

so of those numbers, Togekiss resists or is immune to 14 of the common moves of the top twelve pokemon and is hit neutrally by 11. Togekiss is weak to 7 common moves of the top twelve pokemon, 3 physically, 4 specially, and with togekiss's good defenses, that means she's likely to live several of them. Fairy is better than it appears.

I could add percentage useage to each move if you'd like the percent that Togekiss resists, neutrally takes, and is weak to. It could be interesting.
 
What does everyone think of the rise in arcanine?
Intimidate and snarl with ok speed is a mean combo, after a tailwind or any speed help i think its very viable as a good supporter
 
arcanine functions as a sort of weird fast bulky Pokémon with intim and snarl but I don't think you can discredit its superb offensive coverage with flare blitz and close combat. access to wow even helps the offensive sets given that arcanine is faster than the premier wisp user ala rotom

that said, arcanine wants to run flare blitz, extremespeed, protect, wild charge, snarl, morning sun, wow, and heat wave. shame it can only use four moves.

what offensive checks are you guys using to combat lando-t, the scarf set particularly.
 
I don't think you ca go past milotic 2HKO plus if you get competitive off its bulk will keep it around to get a few k/os, just keeping around whatever partnered poke you have will be the true trouble.

I also think having to s/r for one deters the majority form using it anyway.

I'm interested in hearing what everyones scarfed sylveon counter is
 

Voltage

OTTN5
is a Pre-Contributor
arcanine functions as a sort of weird fast bulky Pokémon with intim and snarl but I don't think you can discredit its superb offensive coverage with flare blitz and close combat. access to wow even helps the offensive sets given that arcanine is faster than the premier wisp user ala rotom

that said, arcanine wants to run flare blitz, extremespeed, protect, wild charge, snarl, morning sun, wow, and heat wave. shame it can only use four moves.

what offensive checks are you guys using to combat lando-t, the scarf set particularly.
See the thing about Arcanine is that it can still be amazing if running a defensive set. I've tried offense on it, but I;ve found running an Impish set actually works much better since it lies from quite a it of common threats in the meta. Truth be told, Morning Sun/WoW/Flare Blitz/(ESpeed or Protect) works just fine since the bulk is there, the recovery is there, and the power is there. Of course, I didn't perfect my EV spread for it, but you'd want to almost max out Defense, and put some into Atk and SpD. The defensive set deserves a lot more recognition than it gets.

As for Landy-T? Milotic is one since it gets a Competitive boost from an intimidate, and can hit hard with Ice Beams, Scalds, and Hydro Pumps. Similarly, Rotom-W check this thing nicely since it can apply burns and lay down Hydro Pumps (Given that they don't miss all the time). Lapras is also a nice choice as it has really nice bulk, and access to Freeze-Dry and other moves. Though, if using Lapras you'e gotta be wary of the imminent Rock Slides.
 
And then there are those cheese strategies of Skill Swap Contrary Spinda + CC/Overheat Arcanine...
Nothing you need to honestly prepare for, thats not something you'll see outside of trolling on the ladder because anyone can see it coming. Close Combat doesn't boost defense fast enough for Arcanine to live strong Earthquakes from Garchomp or Landorus-T.

As for Landorus-T, Landorus-I is a decent offensive check because it's faster and has Hidden Power [Ice]. It also can kill a ton of other stuff like Kangaskhan (with Focus Blast) Diancie, Garchomp, what it doesn't outspeed it lives attacks from.
 
Every year I try to get into VGC ends the same; I enjoy the building aspect, enjoying playing on Showdown (somewhat) and then I realize how much I despise playing on cartridge once I get to mid 1700ish, laddering there is absolute cancer and comparable to laddering with BP still legal.

I honestly don't think VGC is worth it unless you have friends to go to events with to enjoy the community aspect or have incredibly thick skin, the learning curve is just so insanely high with the amount of hax you have to endure in this format.

TPCi doesn't understand how to make a fun format.
 
i'm confused. get to mid 1700 ish on battle spot? BP?
Rating. 1800ish and it starts getting awful.

I just don't think VGC is a fun format, too much suspect shit you have to deal with it and it's really guess heavy compared to singles add to this that people can simply deny you a win by dcing (it doesn't give you the win half of the time, which is really fucking dumb, like seriously why is this a thing) and it's possibly even more centralized then even OU in terms of Pokemon.

Add to this the fact that doubles is objectively more influenced by hax then any other format, ESPECIALLY VGC, you need an incredibly thick skin to be able to deal with it.

Again, if you enjoy the community aspect of VGC it is probably fun, but playing it by yourself is awful and it shows when you consider how little it is actually played compared to other formats.

The DCing thing is probably the worst, anyone can just DC on you if they lose and deny you your points as their 'revenge', which is EXTREMELY demotivating when you want to climb the Pokemon-GL ladder. I guess that's what you get for playing a game with mostly 12 year olds but still, just perma-ban them from WiFi or delete their save or something if they do it too much.
 
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overcentralization is a part of un-tiered pokemon unfortunately. i can't say i've experienced any loss of points and/or rampant D/Cing on the ladder, either. regardless, this thread isn't the place to discuss this further, as this is a thread to discuss topics such as pokemon in the metagame and not whether or not you care for the format.

See the thing about Arcanine is that it can still be amazing if running a defensive set. I've tried offense on it, but I;ve found running an Impish set actually works much better since it lies from quite a it of common threats in the meta. Truth be told, Morning Sun/WoW/Flare Blitz/(ESpeed or Protect) works just fine since the bulk is there, the recovery is there, and the power is there. Of course, I didn't perfect my EV spread for it, but you'd want to almost max out Defense, and put some into Atk and SpD. The defensive set deserves a lot more recognition than it gets.
i've been using bold arcanine with overheat/flamethrower with a combination of its great support moves. i don't see the wisdom of using a recoil move like flare blitz on a support set (especially one with morning sun), and if i were to use physical arcanine i would use it for its access to close combat and extremespeed and focus less on burns and such. if wild charge can ohko 252 HP charizard-y somehow i would be seriously impressed and it would make me want to investigate hotdog further, especially since arcanine has always been a cool pokemon design-wise.
 

Pyritie

TAMAGO
is an Artist
Rating. 1800ish and it starts getting awful.

I just don't think VGC is a fun format, too much suspect shit you have to deal with it and it's really guess heavy compared to singles add to this that people can simply deny you a win by dcing (it doesn't give you the win half of the time, which is really fucking dumb, like seriously why is this a thing) and it's possibly even more centralized then even OU in terms of Pokemon.

Add to this the fact that doubles is objectively more influenced by hax then any other format, ESPECIALLY VGC, you need an incredibly thick skin to be able to deal with it.

Again, if you enjoy the community aspect of VGC it is probably fun, but playing it by yourself is awful and it shows when you consider how little it is actually played compared to other formats.

The DCing thing is probably the worst, anyone can just DC on you if they lose and deny you your points as their 'revenge', which is EXTREMELY demotivating when you want to climb the Pokemon-GL ladder. I guess that's what you get for playing a game with mostly 12 year olds but still, just perma-ban them from WiFi or delete their save or something if they do it too much.
I've noticed d/c wins take a lot longer to get added to your score but they are added eventually (usually after 10 mins or so), are you taking this into account?
 
Every year I try to get into VGC ends the same; I enjoy the building aspect, enjoying playing on Showdown (somewhat) and then I realize how much I despise playing on cartridge once I get to mid 1700ish, laddering there is absolute cancer and comparable to laddering with BP still legal.

I honestly don't think VGC is worth it unless you have friends to go to events with to enjoy the community aspect or have incredibly thick skin, the learning curve is just so insanely high with the amount of hax you have to endure in this format.

TPCi doesn't understand how to make a fun format.
I'll say a few things:

1) If you're used to the hand-holding a community-based tier system brings for the sake of a special snowflake Butterfree, then that's fine, but don't blame the official game's official rules for not using it.

2) I'm sorry but when I see multitudes of 6v6 games taking 30+ turns to even complete, and some taking 100+ turns to complete, I more than appreciate TPCi's flat battle rules for competitive play. They give you more to think about than just throwing out Mega Kanga and eventually steam rolling everything in sight. Sometimes you don't even bring your mega, and that factor of "what could be a threat" vs. "what actually will be a threat" is a very important element in official competitive play, one that I think Smogon's meta could actually benefit from in the long run.

3) Obviously more people play Smogon. Smogon's community came before the VGC, being the first to fill a void and thus engraved its place in the Pokemon community. Before, Pokemon only officially had the card games, which started around when Smogon started (2004). Smogon had 5 years to build a basis for the video games before the official competitive format came about, but that doesn't mean this community's meta is better in the slightest, especially if you're running large scale tournaments in a timely fashion. Imagine one game taking as long as they do to finish in a Smogon-style singles match when you have over 200 people participating in a single division at the same time. That's just bonkers, and with more offensive pokemon constantly getting banned to ubers, all it encourages is even slower-paced play, yet we're bashing flat doubles because it actually finishes on time? Because it makes people face the fact that Mightyena isn't a good pokemon? Because of luck-based mechanics that have always been in the game since Red/Blue/Green/Yellow?

4) Hax gonna happen. Sometimes you freeze, sometimes you get frozen. Just is what it is in the life of turn-based RPGs. It's how they compensate for the lack of dynamic action in the genre. Pokemon would be too stale and centralized without chance-based occurrences, anyway.

Lastly) Any competitive game is gonna get centralized by the best characters. Smash Bros, Ultra SFIV: Omega Edition, UMVC3, Tekken...hell, even Mario Kart 8 has a meta (heavy weights + kart body + learn to fire hop). To the very least, when there's a solid meta, there's a solid answer and a solid anti-meta. I've seen a good deal of variety just as much as I've seen a good deal of the same old good stuff. More so than last VGC season and more so than many other 1v1 competitive games.

Edit: Not to be toxic or mean-spirited, but that's a "slightly harsh" interpretation of the situation from a VGC player's pov. You're still entitled to your opinion, but I'm still entitled to mine for what it's worth.

/rant
 
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overcentralization is a part of un-tiered pokemon unfortunately. i can't say i've experienced any loss of points and/or rampant D/Cing on the ladder, either. regardless, this thread isn't the place to discuss this further, as this is a thread to discuss topics such as pokemon in the metagame and not whether or not you care for the format.
Emphasis on the last sentence guys. I'm going to leave Chipndip's post up for the sake of the effort put into it, but I'm deleting everything else. You all are steering the thread off topic. Let's get back to discussing the actual topic of the thread.

I think the fairy-typing for Togekiss is better overall. Fairy-typing gives it some actual useful resistances and a great immunity, though nowhere near as big as in 2012 and 2013 where Draco Meteors and Close Combats off of gems were everywhere. Being Steel weak is bad now, but it's not a very difficult type to switch into at least.

Offensively the type change is really huge since you get a pretty powerful Dazzling Gleam. I distinctly remember playing on battlespot back in october or november of last year before the VGC 2014 special ladder went up and getting wrecked by a Choice Specs Togekiss with some simple Fake Out Support from Mega Kangaskhan. I'd like to try that out myself sometime. Sylveon gives a Specs set some competition but Togekiss has a few nice things over it like having a harder hitting everything else, being faster, and being able to fly for double spread attacks alongside Landorus. I'd say the extra attacking prowess makes it a lot more considerable than it was in rule sets past.

One Pokemon I haven't messed around with yet but want to test really badly is Serperior. It's had a good support movepool for a while and now it can be offensively threatening with Leaf Storm. I just have no idea what set or spread to run on it. It seems like it'd be nice with Landorus for the sake of being able to take on Rotom-W and Milotic while landorus can go up against Talonflame, CharY, and Steels. It's only been two days, but does anyone have any opinions on him?

Also:
1) If you're used to the hand-holding a community-based tier system brings for the sake of a special snowflake Butterfree, then that's fine, but don't blame the official game's official rules for not using it.
dontchu talk shit about butterfree
 
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GiraGoomy

when you see a good meme
One Pokemon I haven't messed around with yet but want to test really badly is Serperior. It's had a good support movepool for a while and now it can be offensively threatening with Leaf Storm. I just have no idea what set or spread to run on it. It seems like it'd be nice with Landorus for the sake of being able to take on Rotom-W and Milotic while landorus can go up against Talonflame, CharY, and Steels. It's only been two days, but does anyone have any opinions on him?

I've messed around with Serperior for the last few days now and I'm going to be honest, it's damage output is very disappointing until it gets to +2. I personally also find the support set ok, but outclassed by other mons such as Thundurus (barring screens, which I don't think is the best idea anyway). The only thing I find it has going for itself is it's speed tier which allows it to outspeed mons such as Terrakion, Mega-Kanga, Thundurus, etc. I think it's definitely an option to put for your team if you need an attacking grass type mon, but can probably be outclassed by the likes of Rotom-Mow, Ferrothorn, etc as a Grass Type. I'll update this post more as I test with it more.


Interesting Offensive Calcs:

252+ SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 148+ SpD Rotom-W: 109-133 (69.4 - 84.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill: 174-211 (84.4 - 102.4%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 8 SpD Suicune: 133-156 (64.2 - 75.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Milotic: 125-148 (73 - 86.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
 
Emphasis on the last sentence guys. I'm going to leave Chipndip's post up for the sake of the effort put into it, but I'm deleting everything else. You all are steering the thread off topic. Let's get back to discussing the actual topic of the thread.

I think the fairy-typing for Togekiss is better overall. Fairy-typing gives it some actual useful resistances and a great immunity, though nowhere near as big as in 2012 and 2013 where Draco Meteors and Close Combats off of gems were everywhere. Being Steel weak is bad now, but it's not a very difficult type to switch into at least.

Offensively the type change is really huge since you get a pretty powerful Dazzling Gleam. I distinctly remember playing on battlespot back in october or november of last year before the VGC 2014 special ladder went up and getting wrecked by a Choice Specs Togekiss with some simple Fake Out Support from Mega Kangaskhan. I'd like to try that out myself sometime. Sylveon gives a Specs set some competition but Togekiss has a few nice things over it like having a harder hitting everything else, being faster, and being able to fly for double spread attacks alongside Landorus. I'd say the extra attacking prowess makes it a lot more considerable than it was in rule sets past.

One Pokemon I haven't messed around with yet but want to test really badly is Serperior. It's had a good support movepool for a while and now it can be offensively threatening with Leaf Storm. I just have no idea what set or spread to run on it. It seems like it'd be nice with Landorus for the sake of being able to take on Rotom-W and Milotic while landorus can go up against Talonflame, CharY, and Steels. It's only been two days, but does anyone have any opinions on him?

Also:

dontchu talk shit about butterfree
Togekiss pros:
-Avoids EQ
-Can hax peeps out with Air Slash
-Can support via T.Wave
-Can surprise attack via Fire Blast/Aura Sphere/Flamethrower
-Much bulkier than Sylveon
-Decent Weakness Policy candidate due to its bulk, and with its speed it should proc THEN shoot, which is smart.
-Can heal
-Can redirect
-Is adorable

Cons:
-Offensive presence is hard to vouch for unless Weakness Policy went off already.
-Your safest bet to get the policy off is to take a Rock Slide, but with the new meta, you're probably eating huge damage from a Double-Edge before that.
-If any other item, forget offense at all.
-Quick offense is EXTREMELY important in flat doubles/VGC.
-OHKO targets are few and far between even with STAB due to its move pool (stats are actually really good).
-On defense, it's not the biggest challenge to remove it from play, given the prevalent offensive-types in the meta.
-Less adorable than Sylveon.

You'd think that the bigger list of pros beats out the cons, but they don't. Togekiss is hard to vouch for since you're getting only chip damage unless you bypass Dazzle or Follow Me altogether for coverage moves. Still, if one were to do that at all, I'd suggest Aura Sphere. Hits Kang, Heatran, Lopunny, Ferrothorn, and Bisharp all in a single move. However, if one were to go this route, I'd also recommend being faster than Adamant Bisharp, which is difficult to vouch for. That said, on offense it's hard to call and on defense it's got an unlucky break of fortune. Still a decent pick though, but not sure how to work it.
 
not sure how to work it.
uhhh, don't bother with its offenses and use follow me?? isn't this like the only reason to use togekiss???

im not sure about dazzling gleam or air slash. dazzling gleam is nice spread damage to get chip on stuff and kills hyreigon (also hits around follow me stuff), but those two are the only forms of offense togekiss has business running unless you dont want to run t-wave/tailwind, invest a WHOLE LOT of speed to outspeed bisharp and use aura sphere.
 
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beating bisharp isn't even that likely considering a large number of them run focus sash and iron head KO's you anyway
 
beating bisharp isn't even that likely considering a large number of them run focus sash and iron head KO's you anyway
Running 192 def/max hp (calm nature) avoids the ohko from adamant LO barely, takes it decently well from sash. Investing more heavily into physical defense is something that feels better this gen for me anyways with Togekiss.
Obviously not really worth it to run that much speed and Aura Sphere for Bisharp though, lol, use other pokemon to beat it. (imo)
 
I've been trying out a support bold Togekiss for a bit now. It runs Follow Me, Air Slash, Tailwind and Protect.

As lucariojr said I only run it for the Follow Me so other pokemon like Lando-T or Megamence can set up. The thing is, however, that the weakness to Rock Slide and Icy Wind is a serious problem. You can't run it next to too many other Flying or Fire type pokemon because Rock Slide will just wreck you. This and the immunity to Spore might still make Amoonguss the better redirection pokemon in this meta.

So the way to leverage the bulk on Togekiss as a redirection pokemon is in the other pokemon on your team and preferably they are not Flying type pokemon. Already ruling out two of the top threats in the current meta, Lando-T and Megamence. Dragons are also less prefered due to Icy Wind. That leaves us with a great partner in Kangaskhan, Bisharp, Aegislash, or a Fighting type pokemon (Conkeldurr, Scrafty, Terrakion?); maybe even Milotic in this intimidate heavy meta, although Milotic doesn't deal with Steel types very well.

The jump to a Trickroom team also isn't an unlikely one and Togekiss should operate fairly well in one too without speed investment.

But the question remains, is it a better redirection pokemon than Amoonguss is?
 
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DaAwesomeDude1

waiting for a moment
is a Top Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnus
I've been trying out a support bold Togekiss for a bit now. It runs Follow Me, Air Slash, Tailwind and Protect.

As lucariojr said I only run it for the Follow Me so other pokemon like Lando-T or Megamence can set up. The thing is, however, that the weakness to Rock Slide and Icy Wind is a serious problem. You can't run it next to too many other Flying or Fire type pokemon because Rock Slide will just wreck you. This and the immunity to Spore might still make Amoonguss the better redirection pokemon in this meta.

So the way to leverage the bulk on Togekiss as a redirection pokemon is in the other pokemon on your team and preferably they are not Flying type pokemon. Already ruling out two of the top threats in the current meta, Lando-T and Megamence. Dragons are also less prefered due to Icy Wind. That leaves us with a great partner in Kangaskhan, Bisharp, Aegislash, or a Fighting type pokemon (Conkeldurr, Scrafty, Terrakion?); maybe even Milotic in this intimidate heavy meta, although Milotic doesn't deal with Steel types very well.

The jump to a Trickroom team also isn't an unlikely one and Togekiss should operate fairly well in one too without speed investment.

But the question remains, is it a better redirection pokemon than Amoonguss is?
TBH they both have their ups and downs, it really depends on what your team needs and your personal playstyle. Personally i prefer Togekiss because it has redirection support that won't be beaten by safety goggles as well as two forms of speed control, both of which are very viable options. It also has a very reliable recovery move in the form of roost. Plus you have a higher chance of getting based flinch haxes with Air slash too lol. On the other hand, Amoonguss has more overall bulk as well as the ever so good sleep support. Giga Drain can let you heal (although a bit minuscule) and it also has access to Regenerator/Effect Spore (lol) too. Grass/Poison is also a really nice typing allowing it to check threats such as Sylveon, Azumarill, and Rotom Wash with Giga Drain/Sludge Bomb. There's also Clear Smog too for set-up mons if you want to be cheeky lol.
 
I've messed around with Serperior for the last few days now and I'm going to be honest, it's damage output is very disappointing until it gets to +2.
I've used Serperior a little bit myself and now I have to agree with this. Really disappointing damage output and it feels like it's very easily forced out after getting the +2. Only really found it useful vs a few rain teams where Rotom-W, Amoonguss, or Ludicolo would have been just as nice.

So, has anyone messed around with Volcarona yet? Topmoth's been nerfed with it missing its fighting gem and flying being a relevant offensive type, but I figured it still be decent. Kangaskhan is probably a better choice than Hitmontop since it has its typical massive offensive presence behind it. Back in VGC 2012 I was a big fan of a Rage Powder set to redirect Close Combats and Fake Outs with Fire Gem Overheat to get off a single big nuke attack. Not completely sure how good it is now or what to pair it with (I guess Mega Kangaskhan is a good answer to that question again). Anyone been using Volc?
 
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