VGM Section for On-Site Pokedex

[Salemsectra]

In this time of change and innovation in the metagame due to the introduction of BW2, I thought it might be a good idea to make the "moves" section of the on-site Pokedex a bit more efficient and easier to look through. I suggest that we separate the currently basic list of moves into "Very Good Moves" and "Poor Moves."

The main idea of this suggestion is to promote diversity and creativity in the metagame by making it easier for users to create unique or unorthodox sets because they won't have to sift through bad moves such as Growl. Hopefully, this will also encourage beginners to try out their own sets instead of just using the basic ones that are detailed on-site. Besides, as we have ranked Pokemon through the tiers to help players pick which ones to use (if not to also create new metagames), we should also rank moves on the main page to improve efficiency in this area.

Admittedly, I have very little (read no) experience with programming, but I find it difficult to believe that it would be hard to implement this. The list of "Very Good Moves," as defined by CAP and which I suggest is used can be found here, so there does not appear that there will need significant discussion and debate on the matter. Again, I have no knowledge of how the Pokemon pages are created or generated, but I would think that it would be easy to say "Computer, take rows beginning with these names: '
[List of Very Good Moves]' and move them to the top of the page under a heading saying 'Very Good Moves,' while leaving the rest of them at the bottom of the page under a heading saying 'Poor Moves.'" If I am wrong here (which I may very well be) I would be happy to be corrected, and if this is too much trouble, well, in the end it may not be worth it. But if it is as simple as I am currently assuming, I can only see the benefits for the Smogon community.

Lastly, I would like to remind potential readers that this is an ideal time for such a change; the introduction of BW2, including the new Pokemon, Formes, and Tutor Moves, has considerably shaken up the metagame. As a result, many players are looking for new and creative solutions to both emerging and enduring threats in the metagame. Thus, this feature would be even more beneficial to players if it was implemented now, of all times. Thus, we should strike the iron while it is hot and put this new and helpful referencing device on-site as soon as possible.

 

[Jellicent]

Updating the moves section is already an act in progress in C&C ^.^

Unfortunately, a very good move for one Pokemon might not be good for another. Instead, there's work being done for "Related Moves" so that people know what the better alternatives are. If the Pokemon in question lacks those better alternatives, well, then they're already looking at the very good move, I suppose.

If you wanna help out with this, just check out this thread :3

 

[Solace]

Jellicent covered it!

 

[Birkal]

Jellicent covered it!

I disagree, haha. To answer the OP's second paragraph (which I believe to be the crux of his message), there is no really good way to implement this into the site. It would have to be done by one of the site administrators that has enough access. The only pages that badgeholders can update is the actual move page (like what you see here). We have no control over the actual index. Basically, there are only a handful of users on Smogon who could actually implement this for us, so the chance of it being implemented is slim.

However, I do believe that you present a convincing argument. It shouldn't be too difficult to add a column on the index. The header could be "VGM" and each move underneath it could be listed with "Yes" or "No" in response. It would make sifting through competitive moves quite a bit easier. Jellicent is right that some moves aren't VGMs on some Pokemon (Hidden Power Scizor). However, VGMs are generally regarded as the only moves that you would use competitively, so categorizing them that way is logical, especially since we are a competitive Pokemon website. I don't think Related Moves really covers this, so that's where I find some fault in Jelli's response.

My compromise would be that we could add a little header at the top of each individual page saying something like: "This is considered to be a Very Good Move by Smogon's standards," so readers know which moves have competitive relevance when browsing. We don't need admins to make this update, so it would be pretty simple to just take CAP's list as our guide and do it. If that can't work out, then you're pretty much stuck with the CAP VGM page. That's not to bad though; at least you can find all of the VGMs within that single chart when you're in a pinch.

I'm going to re-open this thread for two reasons. a) I'd like to see what the OP's thoughts are on my solutions and b) I'd like to encourage the administrators to at least look into this and see if they'd be willing to implement it. I don't think it'd be overbearingly difficult, and I think there is enough competitive worth to this suggestion to take it seriously.

 

[Solace]

Birkal if you're going to re-open a thread at least do it right!!

I don't really think putting a "Very Good Move" list is the right idea though. It works well in CAP because obviously you're creating the Pokemon so when considering a movepool submission, you'd want some of those moves to be included. However, when looking at an overall list, it doesn't really help you sift through anything. The Very Good Moves for any Pokemon will probably be included somewhere in their regular analysis, whether on the main sets or in Other Options. If you're looking to be inventive, just checking out what moves it learns and knowing what you're trying to cover with the set to pick the right move seems more efficient than labeling every move as good or bad.

Not to mention, with abilities and different formats, moves that are normally bad can be great. (Helping Hand and Icy Wind come to mind as great moves in Doubles and poor moves in Singles, while Technician Pokemon like Scizor can make use of Aerial Ace while it's a weaker option for others.)

Also, I'm pretty sure it has to be an admin with root access to change that part of the site, which would make it significantly more difficult to find someone to update it all, although I could be wrong.

Just my opinion!

 

[Ketsuban]

Showdown seems to have a rudimentary filtration mechanism which separates moves into recommended, competitive and other. "Recommended" seems to roughly correspond to moves which appear in one or more written-up sets, and "competitive" to all moves without a strictly superior counterpart (Rock Slide isn't competitive when the Pokémon in question learns Stone Edge, for example).

I think the OP might be asking for something more along those lines, since trying to come up with a single definitive list of moves from best to worst plainly doesn't work.

 

[Salemsectra]

Birkal's compromise seems to achieve what I was talking about, although I do have a question. Would changing the index also change the moves in the "Moves" tab on the analyses? If not, although this would definitely be an improvement, it would still be very slow, and wouldn't help people who are looking for a specific Pokemon's moves in the "Moves" tab.

Also, I don't quite think that Jellicent's "Related Moves" idea quite achieves what this suggestion is aiming for. It seems like a good project, but the main goal of this suggestion is to save time for players who have to sift through the wall of text on the "Moves" tab to find the moves they're looking for. Having all the more competitive moves under one heading will fix this, while having to click on each move, see the related moves, then check to see if the Pokemon has any of these related moves and so on, would be even more inefficient than it is now. This project seems good and it does have its uses, just not in this context, and not for the audience I am trying to help.

Although it is true that a Pokemon like Scizor might use a move that would not fall into the VGM list normally, I feel that any player who is trying to make a new and creative set for such a Pokemon will be familiar enough with the Pokemon to realize that the VGM list won't necessarily apply in all cases. Furthermore, I think that this is an appropriate alternative to going through every single Pokemon (or even all the non-PU Pokemon) and choosing which moves are competitive and which are not. Realistically, that is far too much to ask of anyone. Instead, this would just be a general guide for new players or a basic aid for creative players to speed up their learning or creating process. Many Pokemon have rather expansive movepools, and when I go and check them out under the "Moves" tab on analyses, you're met with essentially a wall of text. In most cases, the majority (or at least, quite a lot) of these moves are things no one would ever use competitively, like Tackle, Ally Switch, or Teleport. It will be easier if we had a way to easily filter these out.

As for Solace's comment about alternate formats, there are many aspects of Smogon that already disregard or downplay Doubles anyway, so I feel that this is not an issue. However, if this becomes enough of an problem and we do find someone who is able to fix this, I think it could only be beneficial to have some VGC experts (I am not one...) to compile a list of moves that are VGM in VGC and the "VGM?" column Birkal was suggesting could include "Yes," "No," and "VGC only." Again, this might be more trouble than it is worth, and so I personally think that unless there is enough interest, we'd be better leaving it alone.

Also, although it is true that most VGMs that you'll want to use on a Pokemon will be included in the sets or in the Other Options part of its analysis, there is always room for a new, unconventional set that could become vastly superior. This is exactly the kind of creativity my improvement seeks to nurture, as these unconventional sets are how new sets become listed on analyses. Furthermore, the "Moves" section is there for a reason; if this were absolutely true, there would be no need whatsoever for a "Moves" section. This suggestion is a simple and beneficial improvement to the "Moves" section.

I am intrigued by Ketsuban's comment; using the "recommended" moves from Showdown! or the moves that frequently are chosen for random battles would be an interesting alternative. This is because it would customize the "VGM" list to the Pokemon, which, I think, solves the problem of certain Pokemon using weaker moves due to them having a very small movepool or ability that obliges them to use the weaker moves. I don't know the specifics of how these are generated, but I would be happy to ask Zarel (or search the site) for his opinion on implementing this if we decide that this would be better than the original suggestion of using the CAP lists. I also don't know if this would be more difficult to implement, because you'd have to go through each Pokemon, I would imagine. (Or maybe not... the code might exist somewhere already, like in Showdown!...?)

I'd enjoy hearing you guys' opinions on whether we should stick with Birkal's compromise or choose Ketsuban's Showdown! use and as to which admin I'd (or someone would) need to contact in order to get this done.

 

[Birkal]

Birkal's compromise seems to achieve what I was talking about, although I do have a question. Would changing the index also change the moves in the "Moves" tab on the analyses?

Since I don't have root access (lol), all I can do is speculate on this. However, I would imagine that changing the index would indeed show up in both locations, since Pokemon move pages and the general moves pages are identical. Again, I don't know for sure since I don't have that kind of access.

Although it is true that a Pokemon like Scizor might use a move that would not fall into the VGM list normally, I feel that any player who is trying to make a new and creative set for such a Pokemon will be familiar enough with the Pokemon to realize that the VGM list won't necessarily apply in all cases.

This is a reasonable thing to expect, in my opinion. There'd be absolutely no way to differentiate VGMs except by doing it all manually. While I guess that's within the realm of possibilities, I feel that common sense would go a long way on this point.

As for Solace's comment about alternate formats, there are many aspects of Smogon that already disregard or downplay Doubles anyway, so I feel that this is not an issue. However, if this becomes enough of an problem and we do find someone who is able to fix this, I think it could only be beneficial to have some VGC experts (I am not one...) to compile a list of moves that are VGM in VGC and the "VGM?" column Birkal was suggesting could include "Yes," "No," and "VGC only." Again, this might be more trouble than it is worth, and so I personally think that unless there is enough interest, we'd be better leaving it alone.[/url]

Smogon's doubles support is increasing, so this is absolutely something to be concerned about. Solace is right. However, I think your suggestion is a good compromise. Using a "Doubles Only" label is concise and informative. If this system were to be implemented, I doubt that adding a third category would be too difficult.

Also, although it is true that most VGMs that you'll want to use on a Pokemon will be included in the sets or in the Other Options part of its analysis, there is always room for a new, unconventional set that could become vastly superior.

Furthermore, there aren't clickable links in OO, so they are kind of worthless when you're trying to learn more about the move itself. I agree with this point.

I'd enjoy hearing you guys' opinions on whether we should stick with Birkal's compromise or choose Ketsuban's Showdown! use and as to which admin I'd (or someone would) need to contact in order to get this done.

I'd prefer to use CAP's VGM list for this since it's been worked on for years and is generally pretty air tight. I'm not sure how Randbat mons are made. I always assumed they were pre-generated sets.


Again, I must stress that you need to convince an administrator with root access to make these changes if you really want them that badly. If you do, fire off a PM to DougJustDoug or mingot. They'll be able to give you a definitive answer on whether or not they find worth in this suggestion and are willing to implement it.

 

[Salemsectra]

I'd prefer to use CAP's VGM list for this since it's been worked on for years and is generally pretty air tight. I'm not sure how Randbat mons are made. I always assumed they were pre-generated sets.

I agree with you, and as for the Randbat mons, for some reason I never thought of it that way, but it seems as that's probably right (considering the fact that it can "choose" moves depending on the item you're carrying and the Pokemon you are).

I sent a PM to DougJustDoug and mingot; I expect we'll or I'll hear back from them soon. Thanks for your support!

EDIT: mingot has said that he's going to put it on the list for the developers go over. Woohoo! Mods, as I think there's nothing left to discuss here (I think...), there's no reason for the thread to be left open. Thanks again for your ideas and support!