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Discussion in 'BW OU' started by Alexander., Apr 25, 2013.
i was just about to say this. mentioned bronzong in the usage stats
When we are talking about Landorus I, lets assume it has its 2 best friends along for the ride.
In that case Rotom-W is your man. With SR and Rotom-W at full HP Focus Blast from a modest Lando I SF and LO has less than a 50% chance to 2HKO, which given Focus Blast's shaky accuracy there is a good bet you can survive it.
Right off Smogon's website.
Rotom-Wash @ Leftovers
EVs: 232 SDef / 248 HP / 28 SAtk
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump
- Volt Switch
- Pain Split
+252 SpA LO SF Lando I FB vs 248 HP/+232 SpD Rotom-Wash
26% Chance to 2hko after SR.
If you factor in the 49% chance to hit 2 focus blasts in a row...
about 12.74% chance to 2hko.
Perhaps not the true definition of a counter, but its pretty close. And considering its friends TTar/Keldeo, most likely it will be your best bet. Running it in a core with something like lando-T/rachi/Lati@s, it will tip the risk vs rewards scale.
In my opinion we can't speak to counter about landorus-I but only check becouse the only real counter is Bronzong tanks to his type and ability(levitate) counter all set of landorus-I but it don't find really space in OU tier; for this reason we can only speak to check.
The most use of landorus-I is the rock polish set with sheer force and LO so a special attacker, for these reason i belive that a good check is celebi sp def that couter all the moves of landorus-I.
Celebi @ Leftovers Trait: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 240 SDef / 16 Spd
Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
- Thunder Wave / Perish song / Stealth rock
- U-turn / Baton pass
- Giga Drain
Celebi is clearly one of the best check of Landorus, it only loses to U-Turn variants (which fortunately aren't so common as Rock Polish variants, I mean fortunately because U-Turn variants are harder to handle than Rock Polish variants because things like Latias and Celebi are smashed by U-Turn...), but I'd suggest you to put always Baton Pass on your Celebi because Landorus-I is often paired with Tyranitar which can Pursuit you easily if you lack Baton Pass.
Sub-Disable Gengar is immune to Focus Blast, Earthquake and Earth Power, and can disable HP Ice, Psychic or Stone Edge making it a great answer to the Rock Polish set. he's too frail to take any stone edges or psychics though, so after forcing him out once any good opponent won't fall for the same trick twice but still, Gengar is a great answer to Landorus.
Yeah so we have discuss enough about the ways to deal with Landorus-I. Zapdos is one of the best check and combinated with lots of priority moves is the best way to deal with Landorus-I as Lavos already said. Other ways to deal with it are Celebi, Lati Twins (be sure that Lando has not U-Turn anyways), Rotom-W, Gyarados and Bronzong which are all ok check for Lando-I. We can also use gimmick option like Moltres but I'm not sure if it can work well right now because of Stealth Rock which are pretty everywhere nowadays...
I'll post the next Victim tomorrow so if you want to add something about Lando-I do it as soon as possible!
So, the next Victim is...
91 Hp / 134 Atk / 95 Def / 100 Satk / 100 Spd / 80 Spe
Ability: Inner Focus, Multiscale
Dragonite is perhaps the best Dragon Dance user thanks to Multiscale which allows Dragonite to tank a hit and to do a Dragon Dance. It can also run a Choice Band set to revenge-kill stuff with Extreme Speed and to hit harder with Outrage. Finally, it's a good Mixed Attacker too, especially under rain since it has some nice moves as Hurricane and Thunder which makes it even harder to handle. How do you deal with this cute dragon, which is at the same time very threatening?
well, Dragonite got a huge boost in the ability Multiscale this generation. Multiscale basically halves any damage as long as it's at full health. This makes Dragonite a lot harder to take down. Multiscale also basically guarantees a Dragon Dance. That being said, there are many ways to deal with it.
Stealth Rock is probably the easiest way to break dragonite's Multiscale. On the switch in, it takes 25% damage from Stealth Rock, thus making it easy to take care of Dragonite. Take note that Dragonite does get Roost, but an offensive team will give little chance to allow dragonite to Roost. Also Roost is pretty uncommon on Dragonite, except on the Parashuffler set, which is uncommon too.
Sandstorm / Hail. another easier way to deal with dragonite. that 6% damage it takes every turn takes a toll on dragonite. Even after roosting every turn, it takes that damage. The only way to negate this is by using leftovers. Leftovers cancels out the sandstorm/hail damage and thus keeps Multiscale intact, provided it hasnt taken any damage. but some prior damage can ensure that multiscale is broken.
Status. Will-o-Wisp/ Scald/ Toxic reduce dragonite's health each time and thus wears it down faster.
So, dragonite is much easier to handle once multiscale is broken.
Mamoswine's Ice shard OHKOs offensive dragonite after multiscale's broken. Terrakion's STAB Stone edge OHKOs too. Latios' Specs Draco Meteor OHKOs through multiscale. Dragonite's pretty slow without a boost, so any strong, fast dragon such as Garchomp, Haxorus, Hydreigon, Latios, Kyurem-B can finish it off. any Ice type move spells doom for the dragon since it is 4x weak to ice. Like scorpdestroyer mentions below, haxorus and kyurem-B, courtesy of their abilities, can outright KO dragonite.
Defensively, Steel types do very well against Dragonite, especially under rain, as dragonite can't do enough damage even after a boost. Ferothorn also has Iron Barbs that breaks Multiscale and can utilize Leech Seed to wear it down. Skarmory can simply set up entry hazards on a Outrage locked dragonite, or can roost of the damage. Jirachi can also paralyze it with thunder-wave, body slam, and use Wish or simply proceed to flinch it. Jirachi is fast, has access to u-turn that lets it escape magnezone, a common partner to any dragon. Heatran doesnt care about magnezone too, and can counter any Dragonite lacking earthquake and can hit back with HP Ice with its nice base 130 Sp. Att.
Landorus-T can intimidate dragonite and set up SR or outright KO with stone edge. Gliscor, with high defenses can toxic it or toxic stall it. Gyarados, with intimidate can set up on dragonite and render it useless
Hope I helped :)
Multiscale is annoying and obviously the best way is to break it with indirect damage. That said, Kyurem-B naturally outspeeds Dragonite (choice scarf outspeeds it at +1 too) and KOs it at full health because of Teravolt. It can only be considered a check though, since it can't switch in on Outrage
Defensive Metagross can tank a hit on Outrage and hit back quite easily
This is the set
252 HP/252 Atk/4 Def
This set offers good coverage and can easily deal with Dragonite:
252+ Atk Life Orb Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Dragonite: 251-296 (65.02 - 76.68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
This means even if Drago roosts, it can't set up Multiscale again while Metagross can simply Meteor again or even better, Toxic.
On the other hand...
+1 252+ Atk Dragonite Outrage: 35.98 - 42.3%
This means that EVEN IF Dragonite has already Dragon Danced when Metagross switches in, Metagross will be doing a hell lot more(not to mention if Meta gets an attack boost thanks to Meteor Mash, +1 252+ Atk Life Orb Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Dragonite: 374-442 (96.89 - 114.5%) -- 81.25% chance to OHKO.
Dragonite needs Fire Punch to take on Metagross: even so, Meteor Mash still does more and if Drago is already locked into Outrage, it is as good as dead.
A good partner for this set is Lunar Dance Cresselia: Set up Reflect and Light Screen after Meta defeats Drago, then Lunar Dance into Meta(with Bulk Cresselia can take a lot of hits) and possibly win :)
This would be the partner Cresselia set:
252 HP/252 SpA/4 Speed
- Light Screen/Reflect
- HP Ice
Psychic is to ensure it doesn't become Taunt bait(HP Ice is for the same in the event that taunter just happens to be Sableye)
HP Ice is in the event of Arena Trap Dugtrio(at least can do some damage, especially since Sucker Punch fails to Lunar Dance meaning opponent will be little wary of using it)
Lunar Dance is obviously for support, arguably the best support move in the game(restores EVERYTHING, even PP)
Light Screen/Reflect is your choice depending on the rest of the team and the need/
The fact that if Dragonite enters the battlefield with no stealth rocks guarantees he's going to net a kill. It is the the perfect Nightmare to stall teams as most of them wouldnt be able to take a hit from this beast and laugh it of. Even Offensive Mamoswine would have a hard time as Dnite carrys a +2 priority move (Extremespeed).
With that being said:
252 Atk/252 Spd
The reason for this set is it allows you to take a +4 Outrage while Killing it with Iceshard. Another Important aspect about this set is the underrated Icicle Spear. Lots of Dnites will be behind a sub, this allows you to break the sub apart along with the Multiscale and killing the Dragon
Kyurem-B @ Choice Scarf
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SpA)
- Dragon Claw
- Fusion Bolt
- Ice Beam
Thanks to Teravolt, Kyurem-B is one of the two Pokemon in OU barring ones that could somehow get to +3 or above that can claim to OHKO Dragonite (The other being Mold Breaker Haxorus, which gets hit hard by ExtremeSpeed).
Kyurem-B can even come in on a Fire Punch or ExtremeSpeed if it has to and revenge kill a fully healthy Dragonite with just Dragon Claw.
i'm really surprised nobody already posted some defensive ways to deal with dragonite (except cresselia, which, while can wall other dangerous threats such as landorus and terrakion, she can't do anything against tyranitar which seems to be everywhere right now), so i'd propose skarmory, gliscor, hippowdon and even slowbro and tangrowth which can checks dragonite very well thanks to their statistics of defense. heatran, forretress and ferrothorn are good checks too but be sure to not switch into a earthquake or a fire punch if you don't want your check smashed. fire punch is more common than earthquake on dragonite nowadays so, of course, heatran works better than forretress and ferrothorn to check dragonite.
I posted Cresselia as a partner for Metagross so no, Cresselia isn't in as a wall for Dragonite, just as a core with Metagross.
Metagross is kinda defensive with the 252 HP EVs and the 4 Def EVs, although the reason it counters Dragonite is because it hits harder.
Porygon-2 trace is one of the best underrated counters for Dragonite, copying Multiscale, Ice beam to kill Dragonite or just T-wave / Toxic to cripple or the switch of the your opponent, only be careful with CB nite which actually 2hkoed pory2 after SR iirc
Heatran air ballon with Hidden Power Ice or Dragon Pulse is another cool check for Dragonite.
I wouldn't consider heatran a good check, as Dnites superpower does a hefty amount on it. Plus, Heatran is slower than most Dnite anyway, any of Dnites offensive moves break Air Baloon, leaving Heatran open to EQ.
Its a shaky check at best
so, we discussed about both offensive and difensive dragonite checks. offensive checks are things like metagross and mamoswine and difensive checks are things like cresselia, skarmory and hippowdon. plus, dragonite has a lot of revenge-killers which makes things more easily. terrakion, keldeo, latios and cb scizor are all mons which makes dragonite's life harder.
anyways, tomorrow the discuss about dragonite will end, so if you have something to post, be sure to post it in the next hours!
So, the next Victim is...
91 Hp / 129 Atk / 90 Def / 72 Satk / 90 Spd /108 Spe
Terrakion is without any doubt one of the most threatening sweepers around. It has both good statistics of Atk and Spe (which allows Terrakion to outspeed all the 100 base Spe like Jirachi, Celebi and Salamence and even stuff like Landorus and Volcarona, it has a Spe tie with its friend Keldeo and it's slower only than Lati Twins) and it has two STAB moves who everyone fears. It's one of the best Choice Band users in the current metagame and one of the best revenge-killer too, if it runs a Choice Scarf. It can run also a Sword Dance or a double boost set, which is perfect to sweep team in late game. As last thing, we should remember that in BW2 Terrakion gets Stealth Rock and with its offensive statistics and it's STAB moves, it's one of the best Stealth Rock users avaible. So people, how you deal with this war machine?
Hi there! I am just gonna try this. Don`t hate on me if it`s bad, I am a newb.
Here is my first set:
Keldeo @ Choice Scarf
252SpA / 252Spe / 4SpD, Modest Nature (+SpA, -Atk)
- Hydro Pump
- Secret Sword
- Icy Wind
- Hidden Power [Ghost]
Scarf Keldeo fights on par when it comes to speed. 108 BST vs 108 BST. Those are speeddevils. However, Terrakion is most easily be dealt with by Hydro Pump or Secret Sword. The biggest problem is the speed tie. If you`re opposing a Scarf Terrakion, the tie needs to be won.
I chose Icy Wind because I always use Icy Wind, in order to deal with grass-types and Hidden Power Ghost to clear Psychics.
I also use 0 Atk IVs, because you don`t use anything which needs Atk IVs. I lowered it to reduce any possible confusion damage.
SET 2: Celebii
Celebi @ Leftovers
Trait: Natural Cure
EVs: 252Spe/252SpA/4SpD (Timid Nature, +Spe, -Atk)
- Nasty Plot
- Baton Pass
- Earth Power/Giga Drain
Pretty much this whole Pokémons walls off Terrakion (and Keldeo, btw). Psychic breaks Terrakion really. It doesn`t even need a +2 boost from Nasty Plot. When in bad situations, it can Baton Pass himself out of the field, which can be really effective. You can choose over Earth Power or Giga Drain. Both hit Terrakion effectively. I`d go for Giga Drain over Earth Power however, to get recovery.
SET 3: Latios
Latios @ Choice Specs
EVs: 252Spe/252SpA/4HP (Timid Nature, +Spe, -Atk)
- Draco Meteor/Dragon Pulse
This thing, it has pretty high HP, amazing SpA and good SpD. Overall, this Latios has great coverage over Terrakion. You can choose between Draco Meteor or Dragon Pulse, if you don`t like the SpA drop of Draco Meteor. It doesn`t really matter when you are up against Terrakion. Psyshock and Surf are actually the two moves which break Terrakion. This monstrous thing outspeeds a Terrakion (unless scarfed), and 195 SpA (130+Specs) is just plain amazing.
Overall, if you look at those sets, you can see they`re Fast Special Sweepers. I think Terrakion has a weakness against Fast Special Sweepers.
Keldeo fits great in almost every team, which is a huge plus.
Celebi is a great Baton Passer, which is bulky, fast, and has monstrous Special Attack.
Latios is overall the best when he is matched against a Terrakion. Latios breaks Terrakion pretty much with Psyshock/Psychic or Surf.
This is my very first time I am actually posting in this thread. Or actually, the first time I try to contribute in the OU metagame forums. I hope it is pretty good :P
If you get a free switch in with Into a Modest Landours-I you should be able too bring it down too it's kneels(if it has legs) with A speed boosting nature of Thundurs-T.He can pretty much conter Him in every way.(but make sure Land-I dose not use HP Ice)
But thunddurs-I can Hidden power Ice him HARD to his doom.And his a flying type,you can get a agility up on Land-I if the dude has a modest Land-I.So I like use Thunder-T too kill off Land-I.
Terrakion in my opinion is overrated. It has WAY too many weaknesses and doesn't have OUTSTANDING defenses either(not shabby, but not really good).
For starters, virizion walls it(please? Leaf Blade OHKOes) as does Keldeo.
Gallade is a highly underrated counter to Terrakion.
Worst are Ghost-types like Jellicent who switch, burn and beat.
keldeo, celebi and latios can't counter terrakion. i mean, they can all ohko terrakion but they can't switch into it safety. keldeo gets a lot of damages from close combat and if terrakion runs a choice scarf and it wins the speed tie, keldeo can't do any damage on terrakion. celebi and latios are in a similiar situation since they're smashed by both choice band and choice scarf terrakion (choice band ohkos and choice scarf outspeeds and 2hkos) so i'd not call them counters of terrakion. they aren't probably even checks since their chances to stop terrakion are a few and all of them must be lucky with stone edge miss or spe tie, in the case of keldeo. in my opinion trust on luck when you have to deal with a threat in general, isn't the best solution.
virizion doesn't wall terrakion. for sure it can ohko terrakion with close combat, focus blast and leaf blade but virizion can't switch into terrakion safety and like keldeo it has to win a spe tie to ohko it. also, virizion isn't very common as a choice scarf user while terrakion it is so virizion loses 100% against any choice scarf terrakion and if it hasn't a choice scarf, virizion has only a 50% to ohko terrakion, if it stays in of course. once again, i'd not say "virizion walls terrakion" since it isn't right. it isn't ever a check imo.
otherwise, jellicent can switch into a close combat and will-o-wisp or scald terrakion. pay attention on stone edge anyways, which hits really hard the jellyfish. jellicent is just a check in my opinion, since it can't switch safety on terrakion's other stab move. however, it's of course better than virizion for this job.
gallade is quite strange in my eyes but yeah it can work, it resists both terrakion's stab and ohko it back. i don't know how it works in the current metagame in general because i never used it in ou, but as a counter of terrakion it can work. it remembers me golurk, another underrated mon which can counter terrakion in a similiar way.
Gliscor @ Toxic Orb
252 HP / 184 Defense / 72 Speed
Gliscor makes for a great counter (check?) to most variants of Terrakion. With its defensive typing, great ability, and decent movepool, it can wall Terrakion fairly safely, and can usually beat it one on one, especially if it is a choiced set. Gliscor can easily switch in on many of Terrakion's common moves, such as Close Combat, and can force it out, threatening a 2HKO with Earthquake. From there, Gliscor can do what it does best; set up a Substitute, Toxic something, and stall it to death.
Of course, this being Terrakion and all, its not a sure counter. Swords Dance variants, regardless of item, can 2HKO Gliscor with Stone Edge, while the Rock Gem variant actually has a chance to OHKO.
OK. time to post a set!
EVs: 252 Def/252 Atk/4 SpD
- Zen Headbutt
- Drain Punch
- Night Slash/Bulldoze/Stone Edge
- Swords Dance/Leaf Blade/Shadow Sneak
This set is by far the best counter to Terrakion possible. Depending on Gallade's HP left, it can either OHKO with Zen Headbutt or take a Close Combat and use Drain Punch to recover health and OHKO.
Terrakion is mostly forced to run from the set thanks to not enough coverage on the set, and with Close Combat reducing defense(usually not bad but here even worse), it is forced to run allowing Gallade to set up.
Gallade can also trick the opponent by making Terrakion flee and using Bulldoze on the switch, lowering the speed so that Gallade outspeeds. This is because most of the counters to Gallade are speed-based counters like Alakazam(Bulldoze: 61.5 - 72.61% on 4HP Alakazam) who is bulldozed on the switched and then OHKOed. Alternatively, Gallade can set up with Swords Dance and OHKO Alakazam with Shadow Sneak(Unless Zam is running Focus Sash in which case Bulldoze is better, breaking sash and Sneak still OHKOes).
Some may ask, why Impish and not Adamant? This mon already hits very hard and thus Impish Nature lets it take a hit or two before hitting back
Another likely question might be why no Speed EVs? Well, the answer is simple. Gallade simply isn't outspeeding threats like Garchomp and Terrakion especially when many automatically make them Jolly or 252 EVs in speed. Rather than adding 252 Speed EVs just so that it is only 50% slower than Garchomp, I'd prefer it being capable of taking hits and hitting back hard.
Even the 4 EVs were given to SpD so that it has that extra power to take hits.
Most people do not see Gallade as having potential for a Defensive set but with this set it can tank hits and slam back. The best part? Gallade gets immense coverage and thus has a lot of scope for variety in sets.
Try out this set folks. It acts as a surprise counter to one of the most used mons in the tier and with LOADS of options can help give a lot of coverage.
Claydol @ Leftovers
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Stealth Rock
- Earth Power
- Rapid Spin
Thats a nice terrakion counter thanks to typing and good defenses, it can ko then with Earth Power or support its team with its other moves.