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Victim of the Week: Week 12, Lileep (See Post #109)

Discussion in 'BW LC' started by The Unlucky one, Jan 2, 2013.

  1. The Unlucky one

    The Unlucky one

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    Hey everyone. The Unlucky One here, with a fun new thread called “Victim of the Week.” The point of this thread is similar to Hawkstar’s thread, but approaches it in the opposite direction. Basically, in an attempt to better acquaint players with the finer aspects of teambuilding, each week I will be choosing a major threat and we as a community will address ways to deal with this threat. The goal of this thread is to provide players with new answers to large threats while simultaneously broadening our scope of viable mons and sets. A suitable answer could be anything from just replacing a move on an already popular set, shifting EV’s to avoid or net OHKO’s or a totally customized set specifically to shut down the threat, but your posts should definitely include detailed explanations of what you're saying.


    [​IMG]
    Drilbur
    60 HP / 85 Atk / 40 Def / 30 SpA / 45 SDef / 68 Spe
    Abilities: Sand Rush/ Sand Force / Mold Breaker

    The first major threat we’ll be discussing is the infamous Drilbur. In sand it outspeeds the metagame by a wide margin, making many slower scarfers obsolete. Its offensive movepool, though shallow, provides it with just the right tools to 2HKO the entire meta after a swords dance boost. It can also opt for more immediate power with a Life Orb, opening up an extra slot for coverage on the few things that resist its EdgeQuake combo. To top it off, it also has the ability run an offensive support set outside of the sand, making it threatening even outside of the sand. As of now, the number one way to deal with Drilbur involves removing sand, and hitting it with strong, stab boosted super effective hits, with mons such as Snover. Priority moves, most specifically aqua jet, can also make dealing with Drilbur easy. However, the recently released Mold Breaker ability has allowed drilbur to break past many of its checks including bulky levitation and sturdy mons. So, how do you beat Drilbur?

    edit: original project was Delver's but it transferred to The Unlucky One

    Counters for VOTW threats
    Week 1: Drilbur (open)

    Guideline 1: It is really hard to find a pokemon that can switch-in to all attacks and instantly threaten it out. Revenge killing is the best thing to do against Drilbur.

    Snover
    [​IMG]

    "Snover is the obvious candidate here, since it's Scarf set replaces the sand with hail which takes away Drilbur's blistering Speed. It can then smash it or the switch-in with a powerful Blizzard. It can also beat Hippopotas single-handedly, making sure that the sand doesn't come back. This is probably how 90% of people deal with Drilbur consistently, but unfortunately, the hail has the side effect of sapping the health of the rest of your team, so it isn't always the best option." - Hawkstar

    Porygon
    [​IMG]

    "As gimmicky as Choice Scarf Porygon seemed to me at first, it works. It is able to outspeed Drilbur in sand and OHKO with Ice Beam. It does its job, and it does it well." - Raseri

    Grass-Types(If Drilbur lacks X-Scissor)
    [​IMG][​IMG]

    They are able to shrug off Earthquakes with ease and respond with their super effective STAB attacks. The best at this is probably Shroomish, being (I think) the bulkiest of them. Without X-scissor there is really nothing that Drilbur can do. Without X-scissor Shroomish is a hard counter to any Drilbur set. Turtwig, Cottonne, Chikorita, even Snivy all fall into this boat. - Raseri

    Aqua Jet Users (Most Notably Tirtouga)
    [​IMG]

    Tirtouga can get up a Shell Smash easy with sturdy then use its priority Aqua Jet to outspeed and hit Drilbur super effectively. - Superpowerdude​



    Week 2: Misdreavus (open)

    Guideline 1:Not much can really beat Misdreavus in all situations. The first step to dealing with it is to find out what moves it carries.

    Stunky[​IMG]

    "No-ones mentioned Stunky yet which is usually the best counter. But who wants to waste a team slot on Stunky?"- Corkscrew

    Vullaby
    [​IMG]

    "I always find Vullaby to be one good check as she takes nothing from Shadow Ball and HP Fighting, doesn't care about a burn and can phaze Nasty Plot boosts even behind a sub. The problem arises when Missy carries Thunderbolt... then its gg for Vullaby." - Good Luck!

    Porygon
    [​IMG]

    "Porygon is cool because of recover(TUO Note: And Porygon's rather impressive Bulk), but it also takes a serious beating.(TUO Note: From HP Fighting)" - Vader

    Timburr
    [​IMG]

    "Timburr usually KOs with payback, whilst Misdreavus usually does crappy damage. Shadow Ball only does about 35% iirc. Timburr can switch into Will-o-Wisp thanks to guts. However the lack of reliable recovery means it's difficult to check with Timburr throughout a match especially if you need it to check Scraggy or something." - Corkscrew

    Murkrow
    [​IMG]

    "Murkrow tends to defeat Misdreavus(TUO Note: with Sucker Punch) that don't carry Will-O-Wisp" - Woodchuck

    Lileep
    [​IMG]

    "Lileep in Sand can stall out Missy even burned. Nasty Plot sets are quite dangerous and hard to stop, though." - Good Luck!

    Misdreavus @ Choice Scarf
    [​IMG][​IMG]

    "In my experience, a Scarf Misdreavus acts as a good check to non-scarfed-Missys - it just out speeds and 2HKO's w/ shadow ball. Scarfdreavus is often over looked imo, as its one of the better scarfers out there." -Delver


    Scraggy
    [​IMG]

    "And then there's Scraggy; if you manage to boost before Missy comes in then you have a very good chance to beat her 1on1." - Good Luck!​
    [/CENTER]


    Week 3: Mienfoo (open)

    Guideline 1:It's rather hard to switch into Mienfoo without getting weakened somewhat. Most Pokemon that wall Mienfoo use Eviolite in order to take hits from it. This lets Mienfoo use Knock Off on the switch-in and U-Turn out.

    Guideline 2:Burn is the overall best way to deal with Mienfoo as a burned Mienfoo can't really do much.

    Grimer/Trubbish
    [​IMG][​IMG]

    "There are two hard counters to bulky Mienfoo, only one of which is actually usable. They are Grimer and Trubbish. Both have access to Sticky hold, which blocks knock off, they resist Drain Punch, (and for what it's worth, U-turn) and don't take much from Fake Out, Stone Edge, or even payback. Honestly though, who would use Trubbish when Grimer exists? Grimer also does around a solid 40% with Poison Jab with a 30% chance of poison as well which can cripple Mienfoo. It can also take on Choice Scarf Mienfoo which things like Larvesta and Drifloon can't check as reliably. I believe it also takes Life Orb Mienfoo decently as well." - Shouting

    Cottonee
    [​IMG]
    "Prankster Cottonee (yes, I'm obsessed with the freak) can encore Fake Out and Paralize Mienfoo." - Good Luck!

    Ghost-Types (Frillish/Missy)
    [​IMG][​IMG]

    "Yeah, Missy's a great counter. Ghost types in general do a swell job; Frillish can take multiple U-Turns / SEdges but predicted Knock Offs can be annoying later. ." - Electrolyte

    Larvesta
    [​IMG]
    "Larvesta resisting all of it's commonly used moves (bar Stone Edge - used on about 38% of Mienfoo) and can get a little bit lucky with Flame Body." - Good Luck!​


    Week 4: Murkrow (open)


    Guideline 1: “When dealing with these top tier threats, the first step should ALWAYS be to identify its set. This applies doubly for Murkrow.” – Delver

    Guideline 2: Not a lot of Pokemon can comfortably switch into Life Orb Mixkrow. To defeat it you need to be able to predict what move its going to use or simply revenge it with something faster or with priority that resists Sucker Punch.

    Guideline 3: Status is really good against offensive variants. If you can predict it not to go for Prankster Substitute (especially if it Sucker Punches) you can hit it with Paralysis or Burn and it will have a much harder time.

    Guideline 4: Most Murkrow kill themselves. With Brave Bird recoil, LO, and a Stealth Rock weakness, predicting well until it kills itself is a viable strategy if it can't roost the damage off (particularly on LO MixKrow)

    Archen
    [​IMG]
    “I'm probably the only person that really really loves Eviolite Archen, but it's SO GOOD at stopping LO Krow and the standard SubRoost set it's not even funny. The first set here can shrug off everything bar LO Dark Pulse from Murkrow, easily stalling out Sucker Punch with Roost (and Stealth Rock).” – Elevator Music

    Magnemite
    [​IMG]
    “IMO the best thing to do is slap a scarf on your magnemite, hope they don't predict the switch-in and use heat wave, and then go for tbolt on the next turn, when they heat wave.” – Chieliee

    Tirtouga
    [​IMG]
    “Offensive Tirtouga is a good Murkrow check; it easily sponges BBird and SPunch. However, HP Grass hits it like a truck, so if hazards / hail is up you can only revenge kill. However, Murkrows without HP Grass can be set up on easily by Tirt and eventually OHKOd by Stone Edge. Aqua Jet can even let you bypass SPunch.” – Electrolyte

    Sucker Punch Resist @ Choice Scarf
    [​IMG][​IMG]

    “honestly the easiest way to beat murkrow is just scarf something with a sucker punch resist, or just make it faster somehow. murkrow isnt taking a hit thats neutral cause it just cant, and anything that can get aroudn sucker punch is fun. hell use scarf scraggy it wins games.” – premr



    Week 5: Snover (open)


    Guideline 1: Snover’s lack of recovery outside Giga Drain and Stealth Rock weakness mean that if Stealth Rock is on the field Snover’s lifespan will be severely shortened.


    Bronzor
    [​IMG]
    “Bronzor can take any hit except HP Fire quite easily, and return with a Flash Cannon or status. However, due to the fact that bronzor lacks recovery, it can be easily worn down, so players should try to get hazards up to wear down Snover before Bronzor gets taken down.” – Electrolyte

    Pawniard
    [​IMG]
    “Pawniard is a great offensive check; it can take a Blizzard / Giga Drain quite well and OHKO with Iron Head or Sucker Punch. It has to fear HP Fire though.” – Electrolyte


    Magnemite
    [​IMG]
    “Magnemite is also a great counter to Snover; it can take almost any hit and HP Fire does relatively little as well. Magnemite can OHKO with Flash Cannon or even its own HP Fire in return.” – Electrolyte

    Larvesta
    [​IMG]
    “Larvesta takes very little from anything Snover packs, except the odd person running HP Rock and can U-turn for the OHKO or to get momentum from the switch in.” – Corkscrew


    Tentacool
    [​IMG]
    “Tentacool is the only Water-type who can switch into anything Snover has but it's very unreliable as it HAS to run Sludge Wave to be a significant threat.” – Good Luck

    Houndour
    [​IMG]
    “Houndour is my favorite check as it plays games with Scarf Snover when SR is up as Pursuit will heavily damage it preventing it from switching more often.” – Good Luck​



    Week 6: Timburr (open)

    Guideline 1: Timburr is not too hard to wear down. It does have Drain Punch but he can't be regenerating it all the time.

    Tentacool
    [​IMG]
    ““Tentacool possesses Liquid Ooze to keep Timbuur from healing with Drain Punch.” – Nebuchadnezzar

    Foongus
    [​IMG]
    “FOONGUS is a great Timburr response, even if it has Ice Punch you can just put it to sleep and switch out, and Clear Smog foils its attempts to Bulk Up.” – Woodchuck

    Koffing
    [​IMG]
    “Koffing is another bulky pokemon that resists Drain Punch and Mach Punch and can use Clear Smog to get rid of Timburr's Bulk Up boosts.” – Superpowerdude

    Croagunk
    [​IMG]
    “It must be noted that Standard Croagunk cannot beat Timburr as Timburr can just Bulk Up and beat it 1v1. However, Bulk Up Crogaunk will always beat Timburr 1v1.” – Corkscrew ​



    Week 7: Scraggy (open)


    Mienfoo
    [​IMG]
    “Defensive Mienfoo can handle a +1 Drain Punch from Scraggy for sure, I think that goes for HJK” – Delver

    Riolu
    [​IMG]
    “My favorite Scraggy counter is Riolu. Scraggys that do not carry Zen Headbutt are defeated easily, as DDance+HJK can be protect scouted and then 2HKO'd with Drain Punch. Even Scraggys that do carry Zen Headbutt can be defeated but it requires 100% HP on Riolu's end- as +1 Zen Headbutt does up to 95%. You can even steal its boosts with Copycat if you have the nerve.” – Electrolyte

    Flying-Type @ Choice Scarf
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    “Scarfers are always risky as if you're facing someone good, they probably won't DD until they've worked out the set of your doduo/taillow/murkrow or whatever other flyer. So Scraggy might just attack straight off which will hurt these frail pokemon quite a bit. Only really great for revenging.” – Corkscrew (but they are good checks!)

    Cottonee
    [​IMG]
    “Cottonee is a great switch-in to Scraggy when it Dragon Dances as Prankster Encore will prevent it from doing anything besides setup.” – Good Luck! (Good Luck!, you have convinced me that Cottonee checks everything) ​



    Week 8: Tirtouga (open)

    Guideline 1: Titrouga is much harder to stop when it has Sturdy intact. Do as much as possible to make sure he does not have Sturdy.

    Lileep
    [​IMG]

    "Lileep is also a great answer because it is immune to Water-type attacks and has the best defense out of all of them.(of Grass-Types)" - Electrolyte

    Ferroseed
    [​IMG]

    " Ferroseed is the main answer here, as it resists all of Tirtouga's attacks and can hit past Sturdy with Bulket Seed." - Electrolyte

    Most choice Scarfers
    [​IMG][​IMG]

    " Tirtouga is really slow, so some faster Scarfers such as Murkrow, Mienfoo, or Chinchou can outspeed it and defeat it. The catch here is that they must be fast and bulky enough to take a +2 Aqua Jet, or a +2 Aqua Tail / Stone Edge AND an Aqua Jet if Sturdy is still intact. " - Electrolyte

    Croagunk
    [​IMG]

    " Croagunk is the main one- immune to Water and resistant to Rock, it can take many hits, and simple heal back with Drain Punch and then Vacuum Wave. The damage it sustains is relatively little too as it can heal it off with Drain Punch." - Electrolyte

  2. v

    v the last abortionbender
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    You already said Snover, that's pretty much the best counter known to man. Shellder does a good job too, especially since you are slower pre-Shell Smash, which lets you take the hit when your defense is still respectable. Porygon is bulky as fuck, can Recover off damage, can Trace Sand Rush potentially while KOing Dilbert and sweeping in return. Cottonee can drop Dilbert's attack/Stun Spore/Giga Drain or really whatever it wants to do, unless it's carrying X-Scissor which in my experience is way worse than Shadow Claw for the ubiquitous Missy.

    Dilbert is not a very bulky Pokemon, and as a result it can be KOed with relative ease by a supereffective move from a decent attacking stat.
  3. Hawkstar

    Hawkstar Unplug me from this fantasy
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    Oh boy, Drilbur. Perhaps the most controversial Pokemon in the metagame. An excellent first choice indeed!

    I'd like to preface by saying there are very, very few Pokemon that can switch in on Drilbur and pose a threat to it in the sand. It has powerful super-effective and neutral coverage with it's usual Ground/rock/Ghost moves, and with that huge Speed stat, you are definitely taking another big hit before you get to move. Lileep is perhaps the best switch-in, since it can take two LO boosted EQs with no hazards down and hit back hard with Giga Drain. Bronzor can also switch in easily if Drilbur doesn't have Mold Breaker, but I'm talking mainly about the Sand Rush set so that is somewhat irrelevant here. What I'm basically saying here is that trying to switch in on Drilbur is not a good idea at all.

    When it comes to dealing with Drilbur, I find that revenge killing is the way to go. Snover is the obvious candidate here, since it's Scarf set replaces the sand with hail which takes away Drilbur's blistering Speed. It can then smash it or the switch-in with a powerful Blizzard. It can also beat Hippopotas single-handedly, making sure that the sand doesn't come back. This is probably how 90% of people deal with Drilbur consistently, but unfortunately, the hail has the side effect of sapping the health of the rest of your team, so it isn't always the best option.

    If you can't use Snover on your team for that or any other reason, there exists a few other alternatives. Choice Scarf Porygon can Trace Drilbur's Sand Rush, and then outspeed it and destroy it with Ice Beam if Drilbur isn't using an Eviolite. It gets Trick, which allows Porygon to burden down a switch-in like Lileep that would stop Porygon cold. Porygon is surprisingly weak, however, since it lacks STAB on most of its coverage moves. It can't OHKO anything wielding an Eviolite without taking advantage of a 4x weakness, since it's Normal STAB can't hit anything super effectively. It also presents a high opportunity cost, because Porygon's defensive set is way less of a niche set than Scarf, and can actually take a hit.

    Tirtouga is perhaps even better, since Sturdy allows it to set up right in Drilbur's face and then KO it next turn with Aqua Jet. If the rest of Drilbur's team is weakened and lacks Fake Out, Tirtouga can turn the tide of the match very quickly. Aqua Jet can't OHKO Drilbur without a boost or without weakening Drilbur first, so switching Tirtoug in directly is a terrible idea. This strategy is also foiled by the presence of entry hazards, but luckily Tirtouga is immune to sandstorm damage. Tirtouga can scare away Drilbur easily, but its partner-in-crime, Lileep, can switch in on Tirtouga very well, since it can't be OHKOed by a +2 Stone Edge and is immune to Waterfall and Aqua Jet. In addition, any Choice Scarfers on the opposing team will very likely be faster, so care must be taken to avoid them unless Aqua Jet can KO.

    Certain bulky Fighting-types can also check Drilbur if it lacks a Swords Dance boost. Mienfoo can take an unboosted EQ, and with Fake Out and Drain Punch it can put a lot of stress on LO Drilbur. Timburr can't switch in on Drilbur, but it also works as a bulky answer to Drilbur much like Mienfoo. It even has Mach Punch to KO Life Orb Drilbur most of the time after Drain Punch, and if not it will force Drilbur to KO itself with LO recoil. Of course, if Timburr has a Guts or Bulk Up boost, Drilbur will lose. Riolu can beat Drilbur pretty well with Copycat Drain Punches and Earthquakes.

    There are a few more checks, but there aren't many that I'd say are good for anything other than checking Drilbur or sand in general. Drilbur is a real menace to switch into, but if your team has enough revenge killers to deal with it (or just Snover) then you should come out on top most of the time.
  4. Raseri

    Raseri here to help
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    Well a big part of countering Drilbur is its ability. Prior to the release of Mold Breaker I could just throw Bronzor on and call it a day, but that plan doesn't work at all anymore :(. Now when I need a counter it all depends on the set. If Drilbur could run Swords Dance / EQ / Shadow Claw / X-Scissor / Rock Slide it would be uncounterable, but X-Scissor is generally a bad idea with all the Missy running around, which brings me to my first counter:


    Grass-types: They are able to shrug off Earthquakes with ease and respond with their super effective STAB attacks. The best at this is probably Shroomish, being (I think) the bulkiest of them. Without X-scissor there is really nothing that Drilbur can do. Without X-scissor Shroomish is a hard counter to any Drilbur set. Turtwig, Cottonne, Chikorita, even Snivy all fall into this boat. Drilbur simply cant KO them as fast as they lose. Grass-types are undoubtedly the best counters to Drilbur right now.


    Porygon: As gimmicky as Choice Scarf Porygon seemed to me at first, it works. It is able to outspeed Drilbur in sand and OHKO with Ice Beam. It does its job, and it does it well.

    Priority: This is where things get interesting. Many of these Pokemon can't switch into Drilbur, so they arent actually counters at all. But Drilbur is really susceptible to priority. Ice Shard and Aqua Jet really do a number on him, Fake Out and Sucker Punch aren't exactly taken well either. Good Aqua Jet users include: Tirtouga. With Sturdy Tirtouga can revenge kill Drilbur very well, set up and OHKO with ease. There are other Aqua Jet users, like Totodile, Oshawott, and Seel. But they just aren't good when compared to Tirtouga. Ice Shard also struggles to find good users. You're truly limited to Swinub and Shellder if you're trying to revenge kill Drilbur with Ice Shard, and neither is the best in this meta. Fake Out from Mienfoo is good at chipping away at Drilbur, which when combined with LO recoil and possible Drain Punch means that Drilbur will be dying quickly. Finally, Sucker Punch from strong Pokemon like Murkrow and Pawniard can put a huge dent into Drilbur. Though both lose 1v1, they are able to do a lot of damage to Drilbur.

    I guess the best way with priority is to have multiple users, generally 2 priority users will be able to take out Drilbur no problem.

    Snover: Snover gets its own section for how great it is. Changing the weather really ruins Drilburs day. Choice Scarf Snover can switch into any Drilbur and OHKO it. Eviolite also fares really well, having a lot more bulk. Snover also is able to cripple the rest of a sand team just by coming in, its without a doubt the most viable, because its actually amazing in this metagame to boot.
  5. blarajan

    blarajan holla ladies #£14000 #bling #sparkle #bitchesonmydick
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    I don't have much of a post right now, but I just want to clear up a common misconception that I've seen in 2/3 posts.

    When Drilbur runs X-Scissor, it should replace Rock Slide, not Shadow Claw. The only Drilbur I ever use is Earthquake / Shadow Claw / X-Scissor / Rapid Spin @ Life Orb. This is because the only main target of Rock Slide is Murkrow. Murkrow is generally not the best Pokemon to stay in on with a Life Orb Drilbur, as Sucker Punch...hurts. Likewise, X-Scissor 2HKOes on the switch after SR in an emergency situation, and is super effective when Murkrow uses Roost. While Rock Slide does OHKO Murkrow on the switch, it is indeed the move to replace for X-Scissor.

    edit: it has come to my attention (raseri <3) that apparently people don't do that...if they're not doing what I said above, they are just wrong. At the very least, a well played Life Orb w/ Spin Drilbur should be using the moves I showed. Rock Slide honestly isn't even that important...I don't ever use it on anything but Mold Breaker.
  6. Electrolyte

    Electrolyte Fastest man alive
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    I've found that Lileep is the best defensive answer to Drilbur, as it only takes ~40% from its unboosted attacks and can KO with Giga. Full Health Hippo is along the same line; as EQ hits Drilly pretty damn hard. Physically Defensive Murkrow is a good andwer too, as its priority Roost lets it wall LO Drilbur all day, and with Feather Dance it can render Drilly's attacks useless. It requires prediction, however, so be careful.
  7. Superpowerdude

    Superpowerdude Different breed imo
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    Hey Delver awesome thread here and grats on the CC!

    Ok so while Drilbur is one of the most threatening Pokemon in Little Cup offensively it does have its fair share of counters. The most notable ones being Choice Scarf Snover, Choice Scarf Porygon and Shell Smash Tirtouga. If you are not attempting to wall Drilbur and wan't to take a more offensive approach of beating it then the Pokemon you are using shoud be able to a) hit hard enough to be able to ko Drilbur and b) find out some sort of way to bypass Driblurs great speed. The three Pokemon i mentioned above can do both "a" and "b" making them great to use against Drilbur and Double Rush/Sand in general. Firstly they all carry super effective coverage on Drilbur and they all hit hard with Blizzard, Ice Beam and +2 Aqua Jet respectively. Secondly they can all bypass Drilburs great speed. Snover summons Snow Warning letting it get rid of the Sand Stream that doubles Drilburs speed. In Hail and with a Choice Scarf attatched Snover outspeed Drilbur and can use its 100% accurate Blizzard to dispose of it. Porygon with its ability trace can get Sand Rush and have +3 speed with a Choice Scarf attatched. With its Ice Beam and the ability to outspeed Drilbur Porygon is great to dispose the annoying mole. Finally Tirtouga can get up a Shell Smash easy with sturdy then use its priority Aqua Jet to outspeed and hit Drilbur super effectively.

    In general strong priorty moves also do well to Drilbur due to its low bulk 60 / 40 / 45. E.g Tirtougas +2 Aqua Jet, LO Murkrows Sucker Punch, Bulk Up'd Timburrs Mach Punch. Entry hazard damage is also appreciated to wear down Drilbur so it can't finish a sweep. Entry hazard+Life Orb damage stack really quickly and allow weaker priorty moves to take out Drilbur. Entry hazards also force Drilbur to Rapid Spin, wasting a turn which can be nasty seeing as Drilburs bulk won't let it have much free turns.

    As for defensive Pokemon to take on Drilbur Electrolyte mentioned Lileep and a few people have mentioned Mienfoo but Shroomish also does a good job. With its great bulk and resistance to Earthqauke Shroomish can take a hit from Drilbur (even a +2 X-Scissor won't ohko) then Spore it. Shroomish can then regain health with Giga Drain. A very funny Drilbur counter is infact Riolu. I remember Woodchuck bringing it up Riolu can use priority Magnet Rise to avoid Earthqauke then copycat it back or spam Drain Punch until Drilbur faints. Remember Riolu resists most of Drilbur other moves (Rock Slide, X-Scissor) and Rapid Spin would do pitiful damage.

    All in all Drilbur is a very hard Pokemon to beat and you need something that hits hard and can deal with Drilburs speed. Mold Breaker did make Drilbur a lot harder to face especially for would be counters like Bronzor
  8. Delver

    Delver I got the runs like Jagger

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    Thoughts on that; not really part of the thread - not really lookin for continued discussion on it. (open)
    Initially I dismissed this, but statistically speaking, you're correct. Maybe not usage statistics, but for base damages, yes. A SE rockslide deals 150 base, where as a neutral EQ deals, you guessed it, 150 base thanks to stab. Specifically on a Moldbreaker drilbur, X-scissor is a superior move due to rockslide's coverage (losing things like Misdreavus and other levitators) becomes superfluous and ironically redundant. It becomes almost as niche as running Shadow claw for Missy, as you're really only running it for Murkrow and the Odd Drifloon / Archen. That said, Why run shadow claw when Mold breaker allows earth quake to do MORE damage to missy, and rockslide allows you to hit Drifloon for - again - more damage; and quite honestly no one has any business running anything else as a spin blocker. I feel like ghost is a wasted coverage and for Moldbreaker Drilbur.

    Edit: I apologize, i miss read you post i guess and thought you mentioned specifically MBD. The point still stands for MBD though so im not going to strike it out.


    We all seem to be in agreement that Snover Pory and Tirtouga are probably the *best* answers to the mole; but for the sake of 6 more days of discussion I'd like us to look at the other possibilities we have. One that was mentioned so far that piqued my interest were cottonee - who can abuse priority weather shifts / speed debuffs / defense boosts / sub seed (with taunt) / the ability to inflict paralysis to effectively deal with him. Obviously cottonee is a much harder-to-fit mon than say... Porygon, but do you think we could get some teams that really make Cottonee as a support / Sand counter shine? I'll say right now I highly doubt Sun will work; but maybe we can find a FWG core using Cottonee as a sand check / paralysis spreader or something. I'm still pretty sick and my access to the internet is kind of limited as of late, but I intend to play around with this when i get the chance.

    I'd also like to make a point that the a lot of the listed mons, including sturdy Tirtouga missy and bronzor, are beaten by the Moldbreaker set. While its not specifically an "offensive" set, it is, at the very least "offensive support" and can very well tear apart unprepared, or weakened teams; while simultaneously being able to beat the two viable ghosts in the teir and lay rocks to boot. Do we have any ways to deal with the mold breaker set besides Snover?
  9. Chieliee

    Chieliee

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    magnet rise riolu is cool

    sash abra is a pretty good check, as many people will stay in with drilbur. Downside is, if the sash breaks it's gg, so it's better to have another backup.

    in the hands of a good player, wynaut can definitely beat drilbur (don't switch it in on an attack, as it is 2hko'd by LO drilbur's EQ

    koffing can work, but in practice it's pretty bad

    also ferroseed and bronzor i guess

    i think those are all the reasonable counters that haven't been mentioned/discussed
  10. Superpowerdude

    Superpowerdude Different breed imo
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    Well aside from bulky grass-types and Drilbur/Snover/Tirtouga there isn't really much that can stop Drilbur without being dead wieght for a team.

    An interesting Pokemon i thought about is Lickitung while it might not be able to fully stop Drilbur it does make Drilbur easier to handle with its ability Cloud Nine getting rid of Drilburs Sand Rush, and Sandstorm damage. Lickitung also isnt completely useless on a team either providing great support in the form of Wish, Heal Bell, Toxic and Dragon Tail. With its great bulk it can take a hit from Drilbur and cripple it with Toxic. It could also phaze out Drilburs trying to set up with Dragon Tail. Unfortunatly Wish and Heal Bell are illegal with Cloud Nine but Lickitung still has other nice options to help it beat Drilbur. Perhaps a Curse set could be used to beat Drilbur? What are your thoughts on Lickitung?
  11. blarajan

    blarajan holla ladies #£14000 #bling #sparkle #bitchesonmydick
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    Cloud Nine doesn't eliminate the weather; it just negates it while the Cloud Nine user is in play. Since Drilbur naturally outruns Lickitung, it's actually not particularly useful to negate the Sand with Lickitung temporarily.
  12. Superpowerdude

    Superpowerdude Different breed imo
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    hmm i was unaware of that looks like Lickitung isn't a good Pokemon to use after all. I will edit this post if i can think of anything else but i think Bulky Grass-types, Snover, Tirtouga, Porygon, Magnet Rise Riolu, Focus Sash Abra and Evolite Mienfoo are pretty much all of them.

    Edit: come to think of it a defensive Hipopotas seems like a great counter to Drilbur despite ironically giving it a Sand Rush boost. It can cripple Drilbur with Toxic which stacked with Life Orb will kill Drilbur really quick. Hipopotas can also set up Stealth Rock perhaps forcing Drilbur to use Rapid Spin giving your team a free turn. With Roar Hipopotas can phaze Drilbur out so it doesn't get out of hand with Swords Dance. Remember Hipopotas has a good 72 atk stat making its Earthqauke not a bad attacking move to use. Slack Off combined with its good bulk lets it stay healthy against physical attackers which again helps when facing Drilbur.
  13. Electrolyte

    Electrolyte Fastest man alive
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    Although it's best used as a check, Evio Missy can come in on EQ or XScissor and the burn+switch / KO with Shadow Ball. Non-LO Shadow claw is a 2HKO Max iirc, and it's its strongest attack against you, so you're good with high health. Be careful though, I'm pretty sure +2 LO is enough to OHKO, so it's good to know the set first.
  14. blarajan

    blarajan holla ladies #£14000 #bling #sparkle #bitchesonmydick
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    Another set of interesting checks are Rain Dance users, such as Mantyke and Horsea, who can change the weather, rob Drilbur of its 2x boost, while giving themselves the same. The same could apply with Sunny Day, such as from Pokemon like Petilil or Oddish, but those aren't nearly as fun. Sunny Day Ponyta is actually useful, though.
  15. Delver

    Delver I got the runs like Jagger

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    Can horsea survive a +2 Earthquake?
  16. Good_Luck!

    Good_Luck!

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    I think Blarajan's point was "Kill Hippo, set rain, beat Drilbur" or something along those lines.

    In fact, beating Drilbur becomes easier once you have defeated Hippo. I usually run a weather move (and one abuser), once Hippo is out I use the move to stop Sand Rush and then it's a picnic day.

    The main problem with Drilbur is its speed. MB Drilbur is easily checked by Staryu and fast special attackers as it doesn't have enough defenses. In the same vein, taking out Sand is nice. Most players play cautiously with Hippo if they see Snover in team preview but sacrifice it quickly if they don't see it. They are screwed after that. Rain Dance Foongus is very good to troll Drilbur and Co. With Toxic+Giga Drain you threaten Hippopotas, Lileep, Sandshrew and Drilbur, half of the Sand Team. Regenerator means you won't have trouble with SS damage until you take Hippo out.

    Outside of weather moves, I've found that Stun Spore Prankster Cottonee is great even if Drilbur runs X-scissor; you can encore Swords Dance and proceed to Stun or kill with Giga Drain. Just encoring Earthquake is enough sometimes as it's resisted.
  17. blarajan

    blarajan holla ladies #£14000 #bling #sparkle #bitchesonmydick
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    Ooh I really like the thought of Cottonee. Honestly, I think it could definitely have some real use in the metagame if we figured out how to use it correctly. Priority Stun Spore sounds really useful! What set / spread do you use, Good Luck?
  18. Good_Luck!

    Good_Luck!

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    Classic spread on site:

    Cottonee @ Eviolite
    Trait: Prankster
    Level: 5
    EVs: 36 HP / 196 Def / 196 SDef / 72 Spd
    Bold Nature
    - Encore
    - Stun Spore
    - Taunt
    - Giga Drain

    I've tried Cotton Guard to tank X-Scissors better but it doesn't do anything useful outside beating Sand. Trolling with Prankster Encore is really fun, you can encore Fake Outs and Stun Spore switch ins like Murkrow; against Drilbur is just fun as even if you are KOed by X-scissor you have crippled it beyond repair. Taunt is for keeping hazards out but can be replaced by Toxic or Sleep Powder.

    Stun Spore's terrible accuracy can be frustrating sometimes but is a Risk v. Reward thing. Cottonee is really good in this meta and laughs at Sand, just be sure to pack a Murkrow counter and a Snover Counter.
  19. Rowan

    Rowan not a professor
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    Cottonee always seems to have large 4mss. It would be really nice to fit Leech Seed in there just so you get a bit of recovery outside of giga drain. Toxic would also be nice to cripple Lileep. Substitute is another great move on it, especially when paired with Leech Seed and also allows scouting to make encore easier. I probably wouldn't use taunt in place of one Toxic or Leech Seed but I guess that's personal preference.
    But yeah I really want to build around Cottonee now!
  20. Delver

    Delver I got the runs like Jagger

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    I agree with corkscrew with Toxic or LS in there, but i think I'd end up removing Encore. I'm sure that sounds stupid, but personally I've never had any luck with the move, and since its nerf entering gen 5 its just no where near as good as it used to be. In LC (and especially vs Cottonee) a lot of mons will just be spamming one move anyways (ie: Earthquake, drainpunch, HJK, Shadow ball), so i dont really feel it'll be missed. That's a personal thing, though and am probably wrong in that regard.
  21. Hawkstar

    Hawkstar Unplug me from this fantasy
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    Doctor Delver is out of the office so I will be in for a bit! This week's victim is bulky, powerful, and fast, with an excellent typing to have in this Fighting-type infested metagame. This week, we'll be checking Misdreavus!

    [​IMG]
    Misdreavus
    60 HP / 60 Atk / 60 Def / 85 SpA / 85 SDef / 85 Spe
    Abilities: Levitate

    Misdreavus is one of the defining forces of the metagame, being able to rein in such powerhouses like Mienfoo that would otherwise run rampant in the metagame. It is exceptionally bulky with an Eviolite, and although that is offset by only having Pain Split and Rest for recovery, it makes up for it by being able to outspeed and 2HKO most opposing attackers. It also boasts a large variety of sets, making the task of checking it harder if you run into the wrong set. It can boost with Nasty Plot, take hits with a defensive set, outspeed even more of the metagame with a Choice Scarf, or break down walls with Taunt. It even has a good Attack stat which can catch you off-guard if you happen to be battling user prem. All in all, Misdreavus can be a tough nut to crack, so let's share some tips on how to beat it this week!
  22. Woodchuck

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    honestly if misdreavus is carrying the right moves to beat your team you don't have a GHOST of a chance of beating it

    There are a bunch of different situational checks and counters, however. Murkrow tends to defeat Misdreavus that don't carry Will-O-Wisp, while Porygon beats non-Taunt Misdreavus. Honestly seeing as Misdreavus has basically no counters, most teams' solution is to lure it in with Knock Off Mienfoo and gradually wear it down with SR and Hail/Sandstorm until it is within KO range for a scarfer or priority.
  23. Good_Luck!

    Good_Luck!

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    Exactly what woodchuk said, the first step in countering Misdreavus is knowing the moves she's carrying.

    I always find Vullaby to be one good check as she takes nothing from Shadow Ball and HP Fighting, doesn't care about a burn and can phaze Nasty Plot boosts even behind a sub. The problem arises when Missy carries Thunderbolt... then its gg for Vullaby.

    Lileep in Sand can stall out Missy even burned. Nasty Plot sets are quite dangerous and hard to stop, though.

    And then there's Scraggy; if you manage to boost before Missy comes in then you have a very good chance to beat her 1on1.

    Murkrow is very good but I often find it hard to counter Missy with Porygon; maybe it's just me but unless I predict and hit her with Shadow Ball, Missy always beats the crap out of Porygon with HP Fighting.
  24. Rowan

    Rowan not a professor
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    Timburr usually KOs with payback, whilst Misdreavus usually does crappy damage. Shadow Ball only does about 35% iirc. Timburr can switch into Will-o-Wisp thanks to guts. However the lack of reliable recovery means it's difficult to check with Timburr throughout a match especially if you need it to check Scraggy or something.

    No-ones mentioned Stunky yet which is usually the best counter. But who wants to waste a team slot on Stunky?

    Most of the time you just have to play around Misdreavus with hazards and abuse it's lack of recovery outside of Pain Split. Knock Off Mienfoo really helps in this regard making it much harder for Missy to switch in. I've found it struggles a lot more against offensive teams which put a lot of pressure on it and wear it down more easily.. It can often abuse more defensive teams with Nasty Plot.
  25. Chieliee

    Chieliee

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    using stunky is not a waste. it can EXPLODE on stuff like scraggy which is trying to dragon dance and then you can finish it off with priority it can also use FIRE BLAST to roast ferroseed and bronzor and co.

    munchlax counters missy better than porygon does, i think? burn is worrying but it has pursuit which is p great and the tank set (which has maxium attack investment with adamant nature) really packs a punch. I'm quite sure pursuit from a not burned munchlax ohko's as missy switches out but yeah burn can be troublesome i suppose. Also pain split LOL

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