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Victim of the Week: Week 4 Sigilyph

Discussion in 'BW RU' started by Yonko7, Jun 22, 2013.

  1. Yonko7

    Yonko7 Guns make you stupid. Duct tape makes you smart.
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    Approved by Dittocrow & Jellicent

    Credit to Delver, The Unlucky One, and Alexander. for the OP idea!

    The goal of this threat is to approach a threat and pinpoint ways to beat it. Basically, an attempt to better acquaint players with the finer aspects of teambuilding, each week a major threat will be chosen and we as a community will address ways to deal with it. The goal of this thread is to provide players with new answers to large threats while simultaneously broadening our scope of viable Pokemon and sets. A suitable answer could be anything from just replacing a move on an already popular set, shifting EV’s to avoid or net OHKOs or a totally customized set specifically to shut down the threat, but your posts should definitely include detailed explanations of what you're saying.

    Week 4 - Sigilyph
    [​IMG]
    72 HP / 58 Atk / 80 Def / 103 SpA / 80 SpD / 97 Spe
    Abilities: Wonder Skin / Magic Guard / Tinted Lens

    Sigilyph is quite the unique Pokemon. It has a great Speed stat, movepool, and ability in Magic Guard. This enables it to be a great offensive threat with Calm Mind, stallbreaker, and a hard to take down wall with Cosmic Power and Psycho Shift. It's hard to counter Sigilyph because of how versatile it is, so let's figure it out: what are the best ways to deal with Sigilyph?

    Week One
    [​IMG]
    Show Hide

    Slowking
    95 HP / 75 Atk / 80 Def / 100 SpA / 110 SpD / 30 Spe
    Abilities: Regenerator / Own Tempo / Oblivious

    The king of RU himself. Slowking is one of the most versatile threats in RU, being able to run anything from a defensive to offensive to a Trick room set. Any of its sets is augmented by Regenerator that gives it tremendous passive recovery that gives it extended longevity. The defensive pivot set takes advantage of its defenses, Slack Off, and Regenerator to live a long time, and can be modified to take out its own counters! Escavalier gets taken out by Fire Blast, and opposing defensive Pokemon are taken out by Toxic, for example. On the other side, Choice Specs makes it incredibly powerful and it can switch in and out easily with Regenerator, and makes an awesome pivot on offensive teams. To mix things up, the OTR set takes advantage of Slowking's low Speed.

    Now, what is the best way to handle Slowking: Switch in directly; passive damage; overpower it, etc?

    Let's dethrone the king.

    Together we all determined that the best way to handle Slowking is to determine the set your up against, for example, is it a defensive or Choice Specs set, and each can be determined by its related damage calc. If there isn't a specific counter, usually on offensive teams, then constant pressure will eventually break through. Hazards are another great way to wear Slowking down, especially Toxic Spikes. Pursuit is one of the most surefire ways to take it down with a good amount of users available. Some good Pokemon to handle Slowking are: other Slowkings, Druddigon, Mandibuzz, Crawdaunt, Uxie, Mesprit, Exeggutor, and Cacturne. Review posts from #2 to #11


    Week 2 Druddigon
    [​IMG]
    Show Hide

    Druddigon
    77 HP / 120 Atk / 90 Def / 60 SpA / 90 SpD / 48 Spe
    Abilities: Rough Skin / Sheer Force / Mold Breaker

    Druddigon is one the best Pokemon in RU both offensively and defensively, which is a testament to how good it really is. Its pure Dragon-typing allows it to handle FWG cores almost by itself, amongst other various types. It can be EVed to handle special or physical threats ranging from Lilligant to Choice Band Emboar. All three abilities are viable for any set. Offensively it can punch holes with the power of Choice Band or wallbreak with Life Orb and Sheer Force.

    Now what's the best way to take down the art project? Constant pressure, status, hazards, anything's game!
    Show Hide


    Tangrowth is a great switch-in to Druddigon that only has trouble handling Choice Band and Mixed variants, but it can threaten with sleep and gain health back with Regenerator. Similarly, Steel-types in general are good (initial) switch-ins like Steelix, Escavalier, and Ferroseed, or those with a high defense like Rhydon. Defensive teams usually brave Druddigon's attacks and look to wear it down, offensive teams are looking to quickly take it out; forcing it to use Outrage is a good way to revenge kill it. Its lack of recovery will ultimately mean it'll be worn down. Refer from post 13 to 17.


    Week 3- Hail
    [​IMG]

    Show Hide

    Snover
    60 HP / 62 Atk / 50 Def / 62 SpA / 60 SpD / 40 Spe
    Abilities: Snow Warning / Soundproof

    To complement the Suspect test, this week will focus on Hail teams as a whole. Hail is the only weather that can be set up permanently and it's dangerous from both an offensive and defensive viewpoint with dangerous Pokemon like Glaceon, Rotom-F, or Walrein; it might even be broken.

    Now what's the best way to handle Hail offense and defense-if there is one? Change the weather, anti-hail teams, anything's on the plate this time!
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 12, 2013
  2. Yonko7

    Yonko7 Guns make you stupid. Duct tape makes you smart.
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    Personally, I find opposing Slowkings to be a pain due to Slack Off, Regenerator, and its good defenses. I try to predict when the opponent is going to switch in Slowking and hit it with a SE attack. An excellent example is Choice Band Emboar; I try to bait it in and hit it with Wild Charge. Additionally, I sometimes carry Toxic on Pokemon like Entei to specifically hit Slowking, so it can't sit there all willy-nilly. Also, having more than one Pokemon that's walled by Slowking allows you to overpower it. Having the duo of CB Entei and Emboar constantly using Flare Blitz with hazards can easily overwhelm it.


    Also, I like having two slow, offensive Pokemon together so they kinda corner Slowking. A good example is the combo of Escavalier and Hariyama. Once Hariyama is already statused from Toxic Orb it doesn't care about Scald, and only cares if Slowking has Psyshock / Psychic, and Escavalier handles Psychic but doesn't like Fire Blast, which Haryiama can switch into.

    [​IMG]
    Hariyama@Toxic Orb
    Adamant | Guts
    EVs: EVs: 252 Atk / 172 SDef / 84 Spd
    - Close Combat
    - Facade
    - Fake Out
    - Bullet Punch

    [​IMG]
    Escavalier@Choice Band
    Overcoat | Admant
    EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
    - Megahorn
    - Iron Head
    - Pursuit
    - Sleep Talk
  3. col49

    col49
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    Ok

    Since I'm primarily an offensively inclined player, I'll mostly speak from the outlook of one. Slowking is really a bit of a pain to deal with, since it can run so many different things and remain effective. For that reason it really helps to know your Slowking calcs; by being able to judge how well Slowking takes any given hit, in addition to whether or not you see Lefties recovery, you can very often verify what set Slowking is running. You can usually the test the waters with something like an Entei Flare Blitz, which 2HKOs most Slowking lacking defense investment and as a result can confirm whether or not it is a defensive variant or simply a bulky offensive set such as NP or TR.

    On the subject of being annoying, Regenerator is a real pain to deal with, as alongside the possible Slack Off (61% usage in the past month) it really buffs Slowking out to attempts at overloading and / or wearing it down. However, that is not to say that Slowking is "immune" to this strategy; by pressuring it with hazards and forcing it to take strong resisted hits (Entei / Emboar Flare Blitz, LO Sigi's coverage attacks, Gallade CCs, etc.), offensive can put a lot of strain on Slowking, often forcing it to either switch or Slack Off, and in turn allowing something like Galvantula or Mowtom in for free to force it out. Unfortunately, Slowking sports options that can restrict Spikes users from setting up on its face unlike other bulky Waters of the tier (Psyshock / Psychic for Qwilfish / Rose, Fire Blast for Ferro), but common partners to 'King such as Tangrowth, Amoonguss, and Steelix can all be used as Spikes bait to a certain extent.

    As RU sports some pretty solid Pursuit users, including Spiritomb, Escavalier, and Absol, there is the option of removing Slowking more immediately from the match. Unfortunately, this too comes with its own risk, as in doing so all of these Pokemon must at some point switch into Slowking. This risk could range anywhere from the chance of Scald burn to being outright OHKOed by a Specs Surf / Fire Blast, which often means that they can't afford to come in recklessly. Each Pokemon has their own benefits in this situation, as well as their own faults. Spiritomb is probably the most "safe" option for handling Slowking, being able to outspeed and not being punished heavily by an offensive variant's moves, though his lack of immediate power becomes an issue; the defensive variant of Slowking narrowly avoids the 2HKO from CBTomb's Shadow Sneak / Sucker Punch, meaning that if Slowking can easily Slack Off in the first exchange and win 1v1 75% of the time (obviously if 'Tomb Tricks, it loses, though that prediction is a tough one to make), and obviously risking the Scald burn is a real pain. Escavalier is one of the most powerful Pokemon for this task, which helps against defensive variants at times since even after a burn its Megahorn hits for upwards of 85% (assuming CB), though it too comes with its risk. For one, the possibility of Fire Blast is constantly there, as it will flat OHKO Esca 99% of the time. Moreover, the fact that Slowking naturally outspeeds is a problem, as while Escavalier can avoid to run enough Speed to outpace min speed King without too much hassle (84 EVs), the possibility of Speed creep on a 'mon as common as King is by no means outside the realm of possibility, especially on offensive variants, and being outsped by it is the difference between life and death for Esca. Absol is somewhat of a "middle ground" in this sense, being fast enough to easily outpace King (even has the Sucker Punch to check OTR variants) and the power to easily get through him. Of course, there is the recurring issue of its bulk; Absol takes over half from defensive Slowking's Scald, and in the worst case scenario a Specs Surf positively decimates it (131.61 - 155.51%). That said, Absol has to play much more carefully around Slowking to effectively combat it, which makes its predictions in such a match-up a lot more crucial than 'Tomb's and Esca's, both of whom possess the bulk to bounce back from a misplay.

    I might do a bit on lures too, so possible placeholder for that (though if somebody wants to go for it I won't be upset if you do so lol).
  4. Molk

    Molk Crustle knocked off the opposing Rhydon's Assault Vest!
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    [​IMG]

    Hmmmmmm, slowking is a pretty tough cookie to handle (i mean, he's been #1 or at least in the top 5 in usage for who knows how long for a reason, lol). His defensive stats are pretty great overall, and regenerator really helps out and makes it even harder to wear the king down overtime, and not just anything can switch into Slowking either, it has some good coverage to back it up and a strong base 100 Special Attack, making it an ideal Choice Specs and OTR Pokemon as well. Overall, Slowking is a really hard Pokemon to outright counter, but i'll try my best to show you some ways to deal with it.

    First off, i'm of the opinion that one of the best ways to handle Slowking is ironically with a Slowking of your own. Slowking resists both of its own STABs, Fire Blast, and Ice Beam, making it hard for an opposing Slowking to break through it given that nice Special Bulk and regenerator. Of course, this means that Slowking will struggle to damage the opposing Slowking in return, possibly causing annoying stalemates, but there are some ways around this, most notably Toxic. Toxic Imo is one of the best moves a defensive Slowking could have if not only to let it deal with opposing Slowking more effectively, especially to stop those incredibly annoying last Pokemon Slowking stalemates (/me shudders), those make matches take way longer than they need to >.>.

    Another Pokemon i find is decent at combating Slowking outright is a more offensive varient of Druddigon. Druddigon doesn't really fear anything switching into Slowking bar an Ice Beam, crit Psychock, or Scald Burn, and it can decimate Slowking in return with a Choice Band Outrage. To make matters worse for the slowking user, Druddigon's really hard to switch into itself, increasing the chance that Druddigon getting in safely will punch a hole in the opponents defensive core. Albiet rare, Mandibuzz makes a pretty nice check to Slowking too, it can switch into any of Slowking's moves even after Stealth Rock due to its superior Speed stat, use Taunt to prevent anything such as Trick Room slack off etc, and can easily recover off damage with Roost.

    Outside of complete counters to Slowking, there are some other reliable ways to deal with it, although some of them might be very vulnerable to a coverage move or otherwise somewhat situational.

    As col49 mentioned, a great way to get rid of Slowking when lacking an 100% counter is via a strong Pursuit. Slowking's typing may provide it with some nice resistances, but it also gives it a weakness to the move, making it a good way to wear down or outright KO the king despite its bulk. Escavalier, Spiritomb, and Absol are probably the best examples of Pursuit users in the tier, and they all have more than enough power to dent Slowking. Looking at the Pursuit users a bit more in depth, i agree with col49 that Spiritomb is probably the safest option out of the 3 when it comes to switching into Slowking, having no real weaknesses for it to prey on. Although because most of Spiritomb's coverage moves are pretty low BP, and Sucker Punch is kind of unreliable, Spiritomb can sometimes lose this match up to more defensive Slowking that try and stay in the sponge the Pursuit. Although Spiritomb can trick Slowking a Choice Band or attempt to burn it with WoW in this scenario. Escavalier is okay at switching into Slowking as well, although its incredibly vulnerable to Fire Blast and needs some Speed investment to actually outpace Slowking. Escavalier's Pursuit is actually only slightly weaker than Spiritomb's Pursuit because of its monster Attack stat, so a lack of STAB really shouldn't be a problem, and unlike Spiritomb, Escavalier does have a way to beat down Slowking just in case it switches in in the form of its ridiculously powerful Megahorn, which will cleanly OHKO Slowking and honestly most of the Pokemon in the tier, ensuring Escavalier is able to at least KO SOMETHING even if Slowking switches out unless the opponent has something such as Steelix or Poliwrath. On a final note about Escavalier, Occa Berry Escavalier is a pretty nice check to Slowking in and of itself. Because the Occa Berry weakens Fire Moves, Escav should be able to take one Fire Blast from more defensive slowking and KO in return with Megahorn or Pursuit on the switch. Lastly, Absol is the riskiest of the three when it comes to switching in, but it possesses by far the strongest Pursuit and pressures Slowking the most, making it more than worthwhile if you can get Absol in either on like a Psyshock or a Toxic or After a KO. Absol's Pursuit is so strong in fact, that it actually cleanly 2HKOs even defensive slowking even if the slowking user decides to stay in, putting the Slowking in a checkmate position.

    Another somewhat common but effective way to help with Slowking is through the use of Toxic Spikes, Slowking might have regenerator to make it harder to wear down, but its not totally invulnerable to it! Toxic Spikes make this much easier, badly Poisoning Slowking and gradually taking away its hp every turn. This could bring Slowking into KO range of a powerful move, and it limits how long Slowking can stay in before needing to switch out and recover, especially if you get two layers of Toxic Spikes up. Two common Tspikes layers are Qwilfish and Roselia, and while neither of them match up particularly well against king, the hazards they set surely do.

    If all else fails, your best bet at taking out Slowking is just to simply try and pressure it with powerful super effective/STAB moves. This is easier said than done, as Slowking has the ability to take weaker super effective moves, but after a while i'll guarentee you, Slowking will go down. Just don't let your Sceptile or Rotom-C or Manectric or Galvantula or Lilligant or Crawdaunt or whatever you use go down before then.
  5. Mack the Knife

    Mack the Knife Goodbye Smogon! I may return, I may not!
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    [​IMG]

    Slowking @ Leftovers
    Trait: Regenerator
    EVs: 248 HP / 144 Def / 116 SDef
    Calm Nature
    - Scald
    - Slack Off
    - Psyshock
    - Toxic

    This Slowking set is great for countering Slowking. It can take all other Slowking's movies that lack Toxic, and just Toxic it. This makes it a huge bane for other King's of RU.
  6. Yonko7

    Yonko7 Guns make you stupid. Duct tape makes you smart.
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    We are all agree that one way to break through Slowking is by battering is constantly, if you don't have a designated counter to it, which is usually the case for offensive teams. A Pursuit user could be used to put Slowking in a checkmate position, although none of the popular users can switch in with impunity.

    Molk brought up a good point with Mandibuzz, which hasn't been used very much, although it's a pain to take down >: Mandibuzz is a good special tank and it can easily stay in front of Slowking and use Toxic and use Brave Bird to wear it down. To make it even sweeter, it can Taunt to prevent Slack Off. An unlucky burn from Scald or even Toxic can be remedied with Heal Bell, which could be put in on defensive teams, where Mandibuzz usually finds herself.

    It seems to be a theme going with Dark-types and how they can usually beat Slowking; let's also discuss how other Dark-types work.

    Offensive Drapion seems to be an interesting option. A Lum Berry set with Crunch / Pursuit puts Slowking in a checkmate position and Taunt forces to attack or switch. Additionally, it can set up Toxic Spikes that can aid in wearing down the majority of RU. Skuntank is a similar case to Spiritomb. It has Pursuit / Crunch / Sucker Punch to bone Slowking, although it's not as bulky as Spiritomb but it is faster and can wallbreak with Fire Blast, and Aftermath is a nice tool to have.
  7. EonX

    EonX Rise Above
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    Crawdaunt: I'm a little surprised nobody else has thought of this. The only 2 moves that Slowking commonly carries that will for sure cripple or KO Crawdaunt are Thunder Wave (Defensive set) and Grass Knot. (Specs set) Scald is a resisted move though the 30% burn chance does make this a bit of a sketchy proposition, but Crawdaunt resists Fire Blast and is immune to Psyshock entirely. If the lobster gets in safely, it can simply go for Sub to block T-Wave and either setup with DD or go straight for the KO with Crunch. The rare Choice Band set can just straight up KO with Crunch before Slowking can even try to paralyze with Thunder Wave. I'll deviate from Dark-types for the next 2:

    Uxie: Well, the SubCM set in particular at least. It commonly carries Thunderbolt, has Sub to block Thunder Wave, resists Psyshock, and can use CM a time or two to prevent Slowking from breaking its Subs. From there, it can actually attempt to sweep Slowking's team while just KOing Slowking itself with Thunderbolt.

    Mesprit: Mesprit doesn't have as much bulk as Uxie, but it still has enough to take some hits. Unlike Uxie though, almost any Mesprit set that carries Thunderbolt (pretty much all of them) can check Slowking at worst. The Specs set is the most dangerous since it can just smash Slowking right off the bat (or cripple the Defensive set with Trick) though any set that runs Thunderbolt (Offensive SR, CM, Weather Support, rare Scarf, even rarer CB with Thunderpunch) will typically force Slowking to switch. Any Choice set can also utilize U-turn to gain some momentum if Slowking chooses to switch out.
  8. DittoCrow

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    Exeggutor: Exeggutor is one of the best counters to defensive Slowking, since it's practically immune to status through Lum Berry + Harvest and resists both of Slowking's STABs. The only problem is Fire Blast, which never OHKOes Exeggutor unless Slowking is an offensive variant, while Exeggutor's Leaf Storm has a great chance of OHKOing Slowking (over a 50% chance with no prior damage). Even in a pinch, Exeggutor can heal with Rest. Definitely one of the most underrated and effective Slowking counters out there.
  9. Molk

    Molk Crustle knocked off the opposing Rhydon's Assault Vest!
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    [​IMG]
    Another decent check to Slowking that's been overlooked a bit is Cacturne. Thanks to water absorb and Cacturne's Grass/Dark typing, Cacturne is completely immune to both of Slowking's STABs, even healing itself a bit from the Water-type moves it might end up switching in on. Once Cacturne is in it can set up a substitute as Slowking switches out, set up a layer of spikes or simply KO the king with Seed Bomb. Cacturne can even snipe OTR Slowking with Sucker Punch when needed Of course like Exeggutor, Fire Blast sort of stands in the way of Cacturne becoming a complete and 100% counter to Slowking. but i think being completely immune to both of its STABs and threatening it in return is probably enough to warrant a mention here.
  10. Branflakes325

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    Running 92 speed EVs on Escavalier for Slowking is an excellent way to net a free kill on Fire Blast variants, just as long as they don't run too much speed themselves (which isn't too common anyways). A non-attack-invested escavalier will nearly OHKO Slowking.

    Also, here's something worth considering for hail teams:

    [​IMG]
    252 Atk Snover Wood Hammer vs. 248 HP / 144 Def Slowking: 248-294 (63.1 - 74.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252 Atk/252+ SpA/4 Spe is a pretty good spread to run with a focus sash, and sometimes it's worth reserving Snover in case Slowking happens to be a big threat from the start of the match. Slowking's presence in RU alone is enough of a reason to have Wood Hammer handy.

    lol molk beat me to mentioning Cacturne
  11. Hot N Cold

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    The set most hard to countering is Choice Specs Slowking since have a great stabs with Surf or Scald, Psyshock that can beat more SpD mons oriented because have a lot of investiment usually on this defense side and are worst on physical defense. Trick with Psyshock fuck walls and finally Fire Blast / GK / Ice Beam are others cool options mostly Fire Blast to beat stuff like Escavalier with evs speed creep. This set is dangerous for more defensive / balance teams oriented with stuff like Steelix, Qwilfish etc where Slowking have near of a free switch in them killing without problems physical walls and doing a lot of damage against the special walls because Psyshock + Trick. So you need probably like 2 hard checks on this teams like Licky / Clefable, another Slowking, Drapion / Spiritomb, Lanturn, Altaria. While this set is worst against more ofensive teams since have an hard time to switch for example into FWG cores. A lot of this mons and add bug types, electric, druddigon, dark types etc makes hard to switch Slowking into the battle but if finally get in with the right prediction / right move can kill a mon. You'll need a secondary check fire, fightyng types and stuff to your team since now your Slowking set is missing the defense, for example now is 2hko by entei: lacks to slack off, to leftovers, a lot of less bulk.
  12. Yonko7

    Yonko7 Guns make you stupid. Duct tape makes you smart.
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    Wow awesome responses everyone!

    It's time for the next Pokemon, Druddigon! It's always a pain to face >:
  13. Hot N Cold

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    [​IMG]
    Tangrowth @ Leftovers
    Trait: Regenerator
    EVs: 244 HP / 252 Def / 12 Spd
    Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
    - Sleep Powder
    - Giga Drain
    - Hidden Power [Ice]
    - Synthesis

    One of the best Druddigon counters, only cares CB Outrage versions and mixed with Flame but Tangrowth with evs speed creep is faster than Druddigon so can switch in many cases, just uses Sleep Powder to sleep Druddigon, Synthesis to recover health and Hidden Power Ice finally to kill Druddi if is weak or just use different times Hidden Power Ice against Druddigon.

    This is probably the way most defensive to deal with Druddigon, really the slow speed hurts Druddigon which makes more easy to get rk, probably best of this rk are blizzardspam on hail teams. Steels such Escavalier and Aggron are another great checks to Druddigon.
  14. EonX

    EonX Rise Above
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    Druddigon:

    Druddigon is one of the most difficult Pokemon to face imo. While there's little doubt that it will hit you with physical attacks, you have no idea how much power there will be behind them. Will it be to the extreme with a Choice Band set? Or will it be more laid back and manageable with a Specially Defensive set where you then have status to worry about? With this extreme versatility, it's hard to find surefire counters. With that said, here are some examples of Pokemon that generally do well against most of Druddigon's sets:

    Steelix: Perhaps the best innitial switch-in, Steelix doesn't care about much of anything as it has the physical bulk to endure Superpower and EQ with relative ease. The only set it really has trouble with is the mixed set and Sheer Force Flamethrower. As long as it isn't mixed, Steelix can handle Druddigon for the most part.

    Rhydon: Best physical defense in the tier with Eviolite factored in. Rhydon, like Steelix, can handle Superpower and EQ, but it is neutral to Outrage, so be a little more cautious around LO and CB variants. Rhydon also has the power to seriously dent Druddigon with EQ.

    Escavalier: While it may not be quite as bulky as Steelix, Escavalier provides more offensive prowess to overpower Druddigon. Again, Flamethrower from the mixed set is very dangerous, but Escavalier is a decent offensive response otherwise.

    Walrein: Outside of Superpower, Druddigon can't hope to come close to OHKOing Walrein while the walrus outspeeds (somehow) and can smash Druddigon with Blizzard or simply stall it out with SubProtect

    Glaceon: While Glaceon can take any hit not named Superpower with its own SubProtect set, Glaceon is one of the best revenge killers of Druddigon out there. Its solid bulk lets it handle Sucker Punch and then fire back with a powerful STAB Blizzard that Druddigon has no hope of surviving through. Rotom-F and Jynx fall into the same category, minus the SubProtect part and plus more Speed (Jynx has Sub and Lovely Kiss to avoid Sucker Punch)

    Tangrowth: While Hot N Cold already mentioned it, I'll reinforce his point here as Tangrowth really only fears Flamethrower from the mixed set and has Regenerator to stay healthy throughout the match. Otherwise, the scenarios for Tangrowth were described well enough by Hot N Cold as to how Tangrowth goes about beating Druddigon.

    Entry Hazards: Ok, so this isn't an actual Pokemon check/counter, but Druddigon is susceptible to every entry hazard out there and has no reliable recovery. So, Qwilfish, Uxie, Mesprit, Scolipede, and Torterra can all indirectly keep Druddigon in check by littering the field with entry hazards and limiting its lifespan against things such as Sceptile, Moltres, and Galvantula which are all Pokemon Druddigon can normally check.
  15. Kenny

    Kenny don't expect me

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    Druddigon
    [​IMG]
    is definitely a threat that one should consider when team building, and although it's extremely powerful, there are a few answers to its rampage.
    [​IMG]Steelix is a great solution to stopping Druddigon, as it is merely 3HKO'd by Earthquake, and it only takes 16-19% from an Outrage (assuming you aren't facing mixed Druddigon with Flamethrower, which can handily 2HKO Steelix). Although it can tank Outrages all day, it can't really dish out heavy damage to Druddigon. However, it can take this opportunity to set up Stealth Rock safely.
    [​IMG]Ferroseed is in a similar boat, as it is able to tank anything Druddigon can throw at it (bar Flamethrower), again taking the time to set up hazards. A Druddigon locked into Outrage will also be losing 12.5% of its health, due to Ferroseed's Iron Barbs, until it can switch out.
    [​IMG]Durant is another Steel-type that can take on Druddigon, albeit in a more offensive fashion. It can easily come in after the dragon has KO'd a teammate with Outrage and proceed to set up Hone Claws on it and then OHKO next turn (possibly sweeping the rest of the opponent's team).
    [​IMG]Escavalier, like Durant, can come in after an Outrage kill and either OHKO Drudd with Megahorn or do massive damage to whatever decides to switch in. Sadly, Escavalier can't switch into Outrage normally as it's 2HKO'd. ;-;
    [​IMG]Aggron is a lot like Escavalier, in that it can either OHKO Druddigon or just wreck something's day with Head Smash, although unlike Escavalier, Aggron can actually switch into an Outrage rather than having to wait for a teammate to die.
    [​IMG]Tangrowth can switch in on anything a non-Flamethrower Druddigon can dish out and use Sleep Powder on it, but otherwise it really can't do any significant damage back.
    [​IMG]An opposing Druddigon with some Speed creep can put the hurt on Druddigon as well (but it obviously can't handle an Outrage).
    [​IMG]Druddigon also struggles against hail teams, as obviously a few of the opposing Pokemon are gonna be carrying Blizzard, which severely ruins Druddigon's day.
    There are also a few other ways to handle Druddigon. A good example of this is how prone it is to passive damage; repeated hits, hazards damage, etc. really hurt Druddigon because it has no form of recovery (outside rest but that's just lol).

    tl;dr: flamethrower druddigon will wreck your day
  16. Yonko7

    Yonko7 Guns make you stupid. Duct tape makes you smart.
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    I like variety of the posts that ranges from both defensive and offensive ways to handle Druddigon. So far the common consensus is that Steel-types tend to be the best (initial) switch-in, but almost every traditional counter gets wrecked by a mixed Druddigon--all hail teams obviously wreck Druddigon. Defensive teams tend to have more trouble with Druddigon, I find, due to its ability to hit hard with CBed Outrage and have the bulk to survive the attacks from defensive Pokemon; although, offensive teams don't get a break b/c Rough Skin and Sucker Punch is an annoyance.

    I like the combination of Steel-types and Alomomola, which can handle Druddigon, and isn't useless outside of Druddigon either. Escavalier and Steelix, are good to use with Alo-. Both can switch into Outrage, but they are rather limited to slower, offensive teams. After some scouting, and maybe some intentional baiting, if it has Flamethrower then Alomomola can switch in and use Wish, or use Toxic to wear down Druddigon.

    For quick reference

    [​IMG]
    Alomomola@Leftovers
    Regenerator | Impish
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
    -Waterfall
    -Toxic
    -Wish
    -Protect

    [​IMG]
    Escavalier@Choice Band
    Overcoat | Adamant
    EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Spe
    -Megahorn
    -Iron Head
    -Pursuit
    -Return / Sleep Talk

    I'd like the discussion to be about how: offensive teams deal with Druddigon, and specific examples are always nice--any offensive teams are eligible!
  17. Molk

    Molk Crustle knocked off the opposing Rhydon's Assault Vest!
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    Its no secret that Druddigon is one of the most difficult Pokemon to handle in RU because of a combination of its bulk, power, and good Dragon-type STAB. Nonetheless, there are a few ways to handle it. In this post i'll be covering a few ways more offensive teams deal with Druddigon, as quite a few defensive methods of beating Druddigon have already been covered.

    First off, i'll say that getting Druddigon locked into an Outrage makes it a bit easier to deal with if you have the right teammates. At first it might seem a bit strange to say you should get Druddigon to use its strongest STAB move asap, but there's a method to my madness. Once Druddigon uses Outrage it 1) can't use any other move for a few turns and 2) can't switch out for that same period. This means that you can either sacrifice a Pokemon you don't need to Outrage and send in a teammate that can revenge kill Druddigon or you can immediately switch in something like CB Aggron in on Druddigon's Outrage and threaten it with a head smash, all while the opponent can't do anything about it such as use a coverage move or switch out to preserve Drudd because they're forced to repeatedly use Outrage. Offensive Pokemon that can take advantage of an Outrage locked Druddigon whether they can switch in or come in after Druddigon has scored a KO include Aggron, Escavalier, Piloswine, Durant, Klinklang, Offensive Cryogonal, Jynx, the rare Fraxure, and most hail abusers.

    Another way to deal with Druddigon is to take advantage of its complete lack of recovery outside of Leftovers. Of course, Drudd is pretty bulky and its common resistances make it even harder to outright KO, but it does get worn down by repeated hits over the course of the match, and there are ways to speed up the process such as Entry hazards. If an offensive team gets Stealth Rock and Spikes up early on in the game, they'll probably have a lot less trouble dealing with Druddigon later on as the entry hazards will probably push Druddigon into the KO range of the various offensive Pokemon's moves. It gets worse as Druddigon gets forced out too, as that just means Druddigon is taking more from hazards damage. Common spikers that can fit on offensive/bulky offensive teams include Ferroseed, Qwilfish, Smeargle, Crustle, Omastar, and Roselia to an extent. Also note that the former checks Outrage locked Druddigon itself and wears it down with Leech Seed and Iron Barbs while setting up its spikes, which is really cool.

    If all else fails, a good way to outright KO Druddigon is with a Druddigon of your own. Of course this isn't reliable because of Speed ties and stuff, but a little bit of speed creep on your own Druddigon can go a long way when dealing with opposing Drudd, as people will often try and stay in and go for the Speed tie if they don't absolutely need Druddigon later on in the match.
  18. Yonko7

    Yonko7 Guns make you stupid. Duct tape makes you smart.
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    This time it's a change of pace; it's going to be the entire Hail play style as a vicitim!
  19. EonX

    EonX Rise Above
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    Well, I guess to start off with, I'll present the "big 3" Hail abusers we have in RU:

    [​IMG]

    This is the hardest one to deal with imo. Glaceon is the best overall Hail abuser in the tier imo. Why do you ask? One word; versatility. Glaceon can fit into pretty much any type of Hail team. Offense? You got it. More balance? Sure can. Want a Stall member? Here you go. The key to this is Glaceon's stat distribution. It may not look good at first, but it works perfectly for the versatility Glaceon is known for. Base 130 Special Attack makes Glaceon the best pure wallbreaker a Hail Offense team can use as Choice Specs Blizzards 2HKO p. much everything at worst. Slowking, SpDef Magneton, Cryogonal, and Poliwrath are about the only 4 that can avoid a 2HKO from Choice Specs Blizzard and Glaceon even has Shadow Ball and HP Ground to smash 2 of those! That's not all Glaceon can do though. Like any other Ice Body Pokemon, Glaceon can use SubProtect as a stall tactic very effectively. However, Glaceon has something that most other Ice Body users don't; offensive presence. This means that Glaceon doesn't always need to stall out the opposition to score KOs as Blizzard + HP Ground covers more than you might originally think (bye Magneton and Lanturn) 65 / 110 / 95 defenses may not be god-like, but it's certainly enough to withstand most neutral attacks to start up the stalling process with heavy HP investment. Glaceon's final set is a Choice Scarf set. While this may be the least effective of Glaceon's sets on average, do not let this fool you into thinking it's a bad set. Glaceon still has a lot of raw power with base 130 Special Attack and while base 65 Speed isn't amazing by any means, it's enough to get the jump on Sceptile and tie with Choice Scarf Emboar. That's more than enough speed to clean up late-game as long as faster threats have been eliminated. Glaceon's Choice sets also have Baton Pass available to them. Although it won't cause damage like Volt Switch or U-turn, it still allows Glaceon to scout for checks and counters and force them to take more hazards damage as they get met with something that better handles them.

    [​IMG]

    Walrein is the best choice for a Hail Stall team; no questions asked. With great 110 / 90 / 90 defenses, Walrein is the best user of the SubProtect strategy. While Glaceon might have the offensive presence Walrein lacks, Walrein is capable of setting up on many more threats than Glaceon could ever hope to such as Moltres and Sceptile for example. It can be EVed to better handle physical attacks or special attacks depending on what the user needs out of it. If you can get everything hit with Toxic poison or some sort of status condition, Super Fang Walrein is incredibly difficult to stop as defensive threats such as Slowking and Cryogonal are now incapable of cutting through SubProtect PP as efficiently as they otherwise would be. Walrein can also poison opponents itself with Toxic or act as a solid phazer with Roar to prevent setup sweepers from ruining your day. That said, you shouldn't sleep on Walrein offensively. Choice Scarf Walrein may seem outclassed by Glaceon, but its secondary Water typing, tendency to be defensive, and better overall defenses all aid Walrein in standing out from Glaceon as a Choice Scarf user. Also note that Walrein has the same base 65 Speed that Glaceon does. Walrein also has Brine and Surf which means that even if Hail gets removed by manual weather, Walrein can still fall back on a cleaning move and power move respectively in Brine and Surf.

    [​IMG]

    The final member of the "big 3". Rotom-F is a staple on p. much any Hail Offense or Hail Balance team. It's the only Pokemon in the game to get STAB on BoltBeam and its secondary Electric typing is huge in combating Slowking. This frees up Rotom-F's Hidden Power type to deal with Steel-types, in particular, Escavalier who is often times a menace for Hail teams to face. The SubSplit set is incredibly difficult for stall teams to deal with as Rotom-F is naturally immune to Toxic Spikes and has a great STAB combination to utilize. Pain Split works well on this set due to Rotom-F's good Speed and low HP stat. The Choice Scarf set is perhaps the best cleaner Hail Offense teams can utilize. With base 86 Speed, Rotom-F outspeeds the entire unboosted metagame with a Choice Scarf while speed tying with its lawn mower counterpart. Like Walrein, Rotom-F has a secondary STAB to fall back on should Hail get removed by manual weather. Rotom-F's final set is an Expert Belt set. Instead of using the raw power of Choice Specs Glaceon, a Hail Offense team can choose to use the tactical wallbreaking powers of Expert Belt Rotom-F. STAB BoltBeam is hard to wall effectively and by running HP Fire, Rotom-F swiftly eliminates Escavalier and can seriously dent Magneton, thus leaving the opposing team extremely vulnerable to a Choice Scarf Glaceon late-game sweep. Although it may be the most "one dimmensional" of the "big 3" hail abusers, Rotom-F still has its fair selection of sets to work with despite almost always being found on more offensive Hail teams.

    And here are some ways to combat them:

    Slowking: The king of RU makes for a solid check to most offensive Hail teams (and even some defensive ones) Solid bulk, resistance to Blizzard, Regenerator, and Fire Blast to roast the Ice-types with all make Slowking a great choice to handle Hail teams. Just make sure you have something to handle Rotom-F!

    Gallade: Gallade is one of the few offensive Pokemon that can actually stand up to powerful Blizzards thanks to its base 115 Special Defense. Offensive SD and CB sets absolutely maul stuff with Close Combat while the Bulky SD set is better equipped to handle Hail Offense for the long haul. Sub+Bulk Up and Specially Defensive are two Gallade sets that can actually take a Choice Specs Blizzard from Glaceon... without a resistance! Whenever you can live the single strongest Blizzard a Hail team can offer, you're going to be a threat.

    Fire-types: Outside of Moltres, and the rare Charizard and Camerupt, Fire-types resist Blizzard and hit Ice-types for super effective damage. Entei and Emboar are perhaps the two most effective at this as Entei has ExtremeSpeed to handle Scarf variants of Glaceon and Rotom-F if they've been weakened while Emboar has a secondary Fighting STAB and Electric coverage to really put most Hail teams in a bind if it gets in. Emboar is also neutral to SR and will speed tie Glaceon if both are Scarfed. Typhlosion and Magmortar are some other Fire-types that can lay the hurt on Hail teams, but aren't as consistent as the former is nerfed a bit thanks to never having a full power Eruption while the latter gets outsped by Rotom-F and any Choice Scarf Ice-type a Hail team uses and lacks a way around that like Entei does.

    Manual Weather: Before I start, this will NOT guarantee victory. However, by changing the weather from Hail to rain or sun, you nerf Blizzard's accuracy, remove the residual damage that comes with Hail, and prevent Ice Body from working. This will obviously put the Hail team at a disadvantage, but one must remember that most good Hail teams will have a solid supporting cast that can function outside of hail as well, so you still have to play smart and make the right moves to win.

    Aggron: Although it may not take Blizzards nearly as well as Gallade, Aggron has one of the most devstating attacks for a Hail team to deal with in Head Smash. As most Hail teams utilize Slowking or Qwilfish as their Water-type and Escavalier as a Steel-type, they lack a solid resistance to Head Smash. If Aggron gets in without a hitch (easier said than done!) then something is going down about 95% of the time.

    There are other ways too, but I'll leave that for others to discuss and bring up.
    Kenny likes this.
  20. atomicllamas

    atomicllamas on good days I am charming as fuck
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    Hmmm, well hail is a really hard to make a mon to counter it, but there are some sets that do well against hail offense, hail stall, or both.

    Manectric: Manectric can't really take a hit, but it is a really good mon against hail offense, as it tends to outspeed all of the mons on hail teams as Rotom-F is their scarfer of choice (puns, nice). Manectric is actually a really good late game sleeper against hail teams as flamethrower coming off a modest nature (which Manectric can afford to run) really hurts Glaceon, Rotom-F, Escavalier, and Jynx, some of the main abusers of hail. STAB thunderbolt is actually really useful against hail teams as they tend to carry stuff like Slowking or Sigilyph to cover their fighting and fire weaknesses, and hp grass usually takes care of the rock resists on the opposing team. Manectric also has trick to screw over the defensive backbones of hail teams, who are looking to put an early stop to it's cleaning.

    Magneton: By far the best answer to hail stall/Walrein, but struggles against well built hail offense teams that usually over compensate for their steel weakness. The specially defensive rest talk set is by far the most reliable answer to Walrein in the tier (its p much the only answer in the tier), it is also a good choice to counter all sub-tect ice body mons in the tier, except Glaceon, who tends to carry HP ground and has the ability to get around it. Even with out investment, it's thunderbolt and flash cannon/hp fire still hit decently hard with an analytic boost comming of a base 120 SpA. Magneton has to be wary of certain mons that are common on hail stall though, such as Golurk and Druddigon, who can quickly dispatch of Magneton w/ super effective physical hits. If you need to counter sub-tect Glaceon, however, Slowking w/ slack off tends to be a better choice.

    Absol: Mixed Absol is by far the best offensive check/counter to both offensive and defensive hail teams, it is one of the few mons that can stop Walrein from getting up a sub without a STAB move, as Superpower hits like a truck. But the real reason Absol is so great against hail, is that it not only defeats many of the ice types on the opposing team, but also that hail support mons tend to fair poorly against Absol as well. Night Slash is wonderful or eliminating Slowking/Golurk/Sigilyph, while sucker punch can pick off weakened mons that are faster than him, such as Scarf Glaceon or scarf Rotom-F. Superpower obviously crushes all slower ice types, such as non-scarf Glaceon, Cryogonal, and Snover. Fire Blast eases prediction for Absol, while eliminating the omnipresent Escavalier that is not only common on hail teams, but is actually lured in by Absol. The only mons that Absol doesn't fair all that well against on hail teams are Alomomola, Druddigon, and Qwilfish, but all of those except Alomomola are easily worn down in hail.

    In Summary: Mixed Absol is good.
  21. Molk

    Molk Crustle knocked off the opposing Rhydon's Assault Vest!
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    Hmmm, as mentioned, its really hard, if not impossible to 100% beat a hail team with just one Pokemon, although there are definitely some Pokemon/moves/sets that can give the individual abusers quite a bit of trouble. A few big ones of have already been pretty much covered, so i won't try and get into them too much, but i do have a few more Pokemon that haven't been covered yet that can give hail teams quite a bit of trouble, either hail offense, hail stall, or both.

    Piloswine: Piloswine's incredible bulk with Eviolite, resistance to Ice-type moves thanks to Thick Fat, immunity to hail thanks to its own Ice-typing, and immunity to Electric-type moves from Rotom-F all make it quite a good Pokemon to use against hail offense. Piloswine can take most Blizzards (pretty much anything thats not coming from a Modest Specs Glaceon actually) pretty easily and it can do quite a bit of damage in return to the offensive hail abusers with either Earthquake or Stone Edge, depending on the Pokemon. Piloswine's immunity to Rotom-F's Electric-type moves comes in handy quite a bit too, as it can easily absorb them for the rest of its team, and even halt the opposing hail team's momentum by blocking Volt Switch and posing an immediate threat in return. Piloswine can even set up Stealth Rock against a hail team, limiting the amount of times the hail abusers can switch in unless and until the hazards are blown away by a Rapid Spinner such as Kabutops or Cryogonal. Sadly, Piloswine isn't foolproof because of its lack of recovery of any form, not even Leftovers recovery, so it can be worn down over time, but its still a nice Pokemon to have whenever you're facing hail offense or hail balance.

    Escavalier: This is a big one, and probably one of the most annoying Pokemon a hail team can face. Escavalier possesses massive power, good bulk, a Blizzard resist, an immunity to Toxic Spikes often found on hail stall, and its even immune to hail despite not possessing an Ice-typing thanks to Overcoat! meaning its really hard for a hail team to wear down by means other than hitting it. Escavalier can take pretty much any attack from a hail abuser at least once bar something like a Choice Specs Hidden Power Fire, and can pose an absolutely huge threat in return with the threat of CB Megahorn or Iron Head. Escav is even capable of Pursuit trapping important Pokemon to a hail team such as weakened Rotom-F or Glaceon, Jynx, and Slowking, opening up the opposing hail team to something else on your team if it doesn't end up doing the job, or making sure a stray blizzspammer can't do any more damage. Of course, because Escavalier is such a threat, most hail teams will carry a check to it such as Steelix, Poliwrath, or Qwilfish, or at the very least run Hidden Power Fire somewhere to lure it in and weaken it. But even with these preparations, Escav is still really useful to have against hail imo.

    Klinklang: Klinklang is worth mentioning as a threat to hail teams if not only for its ability to stop the subprotect cycle of the various Ice Body Pokemon with the threat of Gear Grind, which hits twice, has decent BP, and even hits Glaceon super effectively. When Subprotect stalling can be so powerful at times, its always really nice to have a multi hit move to fall back on to break the cycle, especially when the Pokemon using it can hit Ice-type Pokemon without a secondary typing super effectively, resists Blizzard, and is immune to Toxic Spikes. Outside of breaking down subprotect Pokemon, Klinklang can use a combination of Shift Gear, its Blizzard resistance, and Steel-type STAB to clean up hail offense teams late game when certain threats are weakened: it can set up on say a Choice Scarfed Blizzard, and then just go to town, easily outspeeding even Choice Scarfed Pokemon thanks to Shift Gear's +2 Speed boost.
  22. Yonko7

    Yonko7 Guns make you stupid. Duct tape makes you smart.
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    Well-built Hail offensive teams are incredibly difficult to handle with balanced teams. The sheer power of Glaceon and Rotom-F is enough for me to keel over. I find Steel-types in general are a good initial switch-in to Blizzard users like the ones mentioned above.

    I agree that--hands down--specially defensive Magneton is the counter to Stallrein with not much else accomplishing this feat.

    Lanturn: hasn't been mentioned yet, but I find that it's a great response to BlizzSpam on an offensive team with its ability to pivot with Volt Switch and heal with Heal Bell for defensive Hail teams. Although, it does have to keep an eye out for HP Ground, which has a 2HKO with SR on the field from Specs Glaceon (with 204 HP / 208 SpD); however, with some good prediction you can bring in something dangerous like Sigilyph or Moltres to take advantage of a Choiced Ground attack. Notably, the RestTalk set is great for handling defensive Hail teams and can heal the entire team with Heal Bell. For the pivot set, a Wish passer like Clefable is great, which segways into the next part! =]

    An interesting way to prevent Hail from overpowering is to use Magic Guard users; this http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/explosive-ice-cream-hail-mixed-peaked-1-2.3486159/#post-4773755 -RMT by Branflakes325 is a great example! Clefable is a good defensive check although it can't handle too many Blizzards but it can act as a hard stop to residual damage and toxic stalling, and can Wish pass or use Heal Bell.
  23. EonX

    EonX Rise Above
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    A couple of things I do want to bring up as something of a warning when using certain things:

    Klinklang: While Klinklang is pretty dangerous to most Hail Stall teams, it should be noted that it needs to be in good health to be able to handle Glaceon on its own. Most SubProtect Glaceon run HP Ground as their final move which will seriously dent, if not outright KO, Klinklang. Even if it doesn't KO, the damage it does will often prevent Klinklang from going on to sweep. Of course, if SubProtect Glaceon chooses Toxic over HP Ground (for whatever reason) then you have nothing to worry about!

    Lanturn: This will again go back to SubProtect Glaceon, but Lanturn will not always beat it (very rarely will in fact with TSpikes up) With just 24 Speed EVs, Glaceon will actually outspeed Lanturn and be able to setup a Sub. The RestTalk set will eventually be forced to give Glaceon a free Sub if it wants to heal itself while the pivot set can't even break Glaceon's Subs with Volt Switch. Not even Scald will always break Glaceon's Sub.

    Agreeing that SpDef Magneton absolutely wrecks any Hail stall team that doesn't utilize Glaceon as one of its Ice Body users. Mixed Absol is also pretty dang devestating as about the only chance Hail Offense has against it is to use Timid Specs Glaceon (who is stomped flat by positive nature Absol), Scarf Glaceon, or SubSplit Rotom-F.
  24. Yonko7

    Yonko7 Guns make you stupid. Duct tape makes you smart.
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    I agree EonX, I've been using a Hail stall team recently and Klinklang is a horror to face. The only way I beat it is with an unpredicted HP Ground or slowly whittle it down with Druddigon.

    Hail is gonna be up for a couple more days until suspect testing is over. Now let's discuss the various playstyles that give hail offense and defense trouble.
  25. DittoCrow

    DittoCrow
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    Week 4 - Sigilyph
    [​IMG]
    72 HP / 58 Atk / 80 Def / 103 SpA / 80 SpD / 97 Spe
    Abilities: Wonder Skin / Magic Guard / Tinted Lens

    Sigilyph is quite the unique Pokemon. It has a great Speed stat, movepool, and ability in Magic Guard. This enables it to be a great offensive threat with Calm Mind, stallbreaker, and a hard to take down wall with Cosmic Power and Psycho Shift. It's hard to counter Sigilyph because of how versatile it is, so let's figure it out: what are the best ways to deal with Sigilyph?

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