1. Welcome to Smogon! Check out the Smogon Starters Hangout for everything you need to know about starting out in the community. Don't forget to introduce yourself in the Introduction and Hangout Thread, too!
  2. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.

Victim of the Week: Week 6, Volcarona

Discussion in 'BW OU' started by Neliel, Jan 27, 2013.

  1. nmitchell890

    nmitchell890

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2013
    Messages:
    175
    Just pointing out that Golurk can't be paralyzed at all and takes 38% maximum from Choice Scarf Ice punch, meaning that it is a check to everything except SubCM variants. It does lack reliable recovery and is vunerable to being flinched by Iron Head even without being paralyzed because it is so slow. Just thought this might be worth mentioning
  2. ala

    ala
    is a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Winner

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2004
    Messages:
    4,012
    Hippowdon counters pretty much every Jirachi set, even with sp.def it can beat Calm Mind with Roar.

    Edit: Magnezone in the Rain can counter any physical Rachi set with Charge Beam. It occasionally gets lucky with boosts and can KO CM Rachi as well.

    Only if you're using Life Orb can you KO, and if you are Body Slam can Paralyze you with two chances (since apparently you're switching in Thund-T and Nasty Plotting). If you're using Lum Modest Thund-T has a very small chance of OHKOing at +2.

    +2 252+ SpA Thundurus-T Thunder vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Jirachi: 343-405 (84.9 - 100.24%) -- 6.25% chance to OHKO

    It would take a lot of balls to try and set up on a pokemon who can cripple your sweep.
  3. yoshinator879

    yoshinator879

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2010
    Messages:
    55
    I honestly think that Heatran is by far the best counter to Jirachi. Other than the rare SupeRachi carrying Hidden power ground, it counters every set.
    Heatran takes abysmal damage from both Iron head and Body slam. The only other offensive move that standard Jirachi uses is fire punch, which even gives Heatran a flash fire boost. Heatran can relatiate with Lava plume/Fire blast (depending on the set that you're running) or earth power.

    Calcs:
    Show Hide
    0SpAtk Flash Fire Heatran (Neutral) Lava Plume vs 252HP/224SpDef Jirachi (+SpDef): 58% - 69% (236 - 282 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
    0SpAtk Flash Fire Heatran (Neutral) Earth Power vs 252HP/224SpDef Jirachi (+SpDef): 29% - 35% (120 - 142 HP). Guaranteed 4HKO.
    0Atk Jirachi (Neutral) Iron Head vs 252HP/0Def Flash Fire Heatran (Neutral): 5% - 6% (20 - 24 HP).
    0Atk Jirachi (Neutral) Body Slam vs 252HP/0Def Flash Fire Heatran (Neutral): 7% - 8% (29 - 34 HP). Guaranteed 14HKO.


    As you can see, Heatran pretty much screws Jirachi over.
  4. Lord of Bays

    Lord of Bays

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2010
    Messages:
    1,238
    Outspeeding Jirachi wouldn't work, as you're losing a very significant amount of power and Jirachi is more likely than not paralyzing you in the mean time, which means all that speed is for naught. Besides, 0 Atk Iron Head does a measly 5-6%, so Jirachi has a lot of flinchhaxing to do before it's out of the woods. Oh, and this is really more of a catch-all Steel trapper and killer.
  5. Seth Vilo

    Seth Vilo

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2009
    Messages:
    685
    Superachi's Grass Knot begs to differ. Unless you were talking about a specific not-specified set here.
  6. TyranitarAbuser

    TyranitarAbuser

    Joined:
    May 18, 2012
    Messages:
    123
    The best counters to Jitachi, like may have already said, are Heatran, Quagsire, Hippowdown. Gliscor and the Landorus forms are also good but have to be wary of Water Pulse and Ice Punch.

    Something to note though, CM Jirachi is quite common on rain teams. Rain will make it harder for Heatran and Hippowdown while Grass types wear Quagsire down.
  7. Frochtejohgurt

    Frochtejohgurt

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2011
    Messages:
    219
    True for Heatran, but not for Hippowdon as it has Sand Stream.
  8. Blizzard

    Blizzard @ NeverMeltIce
    is a Tiering Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2012
    Messages:
    125
    Countering Jirachi is difficult due to the variety of sets is can run.

    I usually use a Jirachi that has the following moves: Substitute/Wish/Iron Head/Body Slam. This set can single-handedly defeat a Rocky Helmet Ferrothorn! Leftovers Ferro is a real problem to this set obviously, as a standard ferro takes about 5-10% damage from iron head, effectively PP stalling it.

    Red Card carrying pokemon can easily check boosting sets. As mentioned before, Physically defensive Quagsire,Gastrodon are great checks to sub CM Jirachi. Tyranitar can come in on a SubCM Jirachi with Psyshock and can roar it out or hit it with EQ for super-effective damage

    Volt-Turn teams (Thundurus-T) can create problems for Jirachi. Scarf Scizor and Thundurus-T do well against any of Jirachi's sets and SubCM sets can played around with.

    Fantastic Pokemon, this Jirachi.
  9. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2009
    Messages:
    7,212
    Oh yeah i remembered another Pokemon that counters the four most popular Jirachi sets (SubCM, SpD, Scarf that lack Fire Punch, which is most of them, and Wish + CM): Specially Defensive Scizor! The good old Scizor has no problem countering the versatile pixie, as long as it holds Lefties to avoid dying from flinchax. You don't believe me? Here are some calcs:

    • Thunder vs Scizor: 18.89 - 22.38%, possible 6HKO
    • +1 Thunder vs Scizor: 28.19 - 33.43%, possible 4HKO
    • Iron Head from SpD Jirachi: 12.5 - 14.82%, 9HKO at best
    • Iron Head from Scarf Jirachi: 15.69 - 18.89%, possible 8HKO
    • +2 Bug Bite vs 252 HP / 236+ Jirachi: 49.75 - 58.66%, 68.36% chance to 2HKO
    • +2 Bug Bite vs 252 HP Jirachi: 68.31 - 80.44%
    • +2 Bug Bite vs 4 HP Jirachi: 80.93 - 95.3%
    • +2 Bullet Punch vs 252 HP / 236 Def+ Jirachi: 16.58 - 19.55%
    • +2 Bullet Punch vs 252 HP Jirachi: 22.77 - 26.73%
    • +2 Bullet Punch vs 4 HP Jirachi: 26.97 - 31.67%
    Full-proof counter pretty much. Just pick some partners to beat the stuff that wall Scizor and you are good to go!
  10. Shurtugal

    Shurtugal The Enterpriser.

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2011
    Messages:
    1,303
    Pivot Jirachi gets fire punch though :{
  11. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2009
    Messages:
    7,212
    Which set is the pivot you are reffering to, Shurt?

    EDIT: Ok lord of bays, foulpruf from now on it is :D
  12. Lord of Bays

    Lord of Bays

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2010
    Messages:
    1,238
    Fire Punch is an enormous rarity, I feel, and therefore not THAT huge a consideration.

    Also Alex please stop saying "fullproof" it's "foolproof" as in "even a fool couldn't fuck this up." I'm sorry but that's been really rustling my jimmies recently.
  13. Shurtugal

    Shurtugal The Enterpriser.

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2011
    Messages:
    1,303
    Really Bays? :O
    I like using it on my Jira (which is why I brought it up), i didn't know it wasn't used much :{ (but then again, I play po so I'm sure gene influences this on my part).
  14. Cherub Agent

    Cherub Agent how lonely is the night without the howl of the wolf
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2009
    Messages:
    3,162
    Man I'm surprised Garchomp hasn't been mentioned. Its very solid bulk lets it easily absorb any physical move when it comes in on Jirachi, bar the very rare Ice Punch (only seen on Scarf jirachi). It can't be paralyzed (or hit) by Thunder, and can come in on nigh any move that Jirachi commonly uses apart from Body Slam (and even then it has a 40% chance not to be crippled). Garchomp will also always outspeed Jirachi, and can either go for the straight up OHKO, or set up Substitutes that cannot be broken by either Body Slam or Iron Head. So basically Chomp can either go for the kill, or use Jirachi as setup fodder. Rough Skin is also awesome for coming in on Jirachi's weak physical attacks, as it'll end up doing almost as much damage to itself as it does to Garchomp.
  15. Lord of Bays

    Lord of Bays

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2010
    Messages:
    1,238
    It's been a very, very long time since I've seen Fire Punch Jirachi. Even during Gensect's time on PS! I didn't see it. To be fair, my description of "enormous rarity" is anecdotal (I didn't pull out any usage stats), but I don't think the usage stats will agree with me.

    And for a little while there when Dream World was still a big thing on PO, I did run Scarf Jirachi with Fire Punch and it was glorious every time I OHKOd Genesect. But at the same time, Genesect all but supplanted Scizor when he was OU so we're talking about two different metagames.
  16. Ojama

    Ojama Are you watching closely...
    is a Tutor Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnusis Smogon Frontier's Palace Mavenis the Smogon Tour Season 15 Champion

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2011
    Messages:
    1,951
    Heatran is definitely the best Jirachi's counter even though Superachi (CMJirachi@HP Ground) is a viable Set. WishCM, Scarf, Specially Defensive, EBelt, etc all these Sets cannot get through Heatran. But well you obviously already knew it so let's talk about its other checks/counters.

    Physical Jirachi is completely walled by :

    - Donphan
    - Heatran
    - Hippowdon
    - Gastrodon
    - Ferrothorn (watchout Fire Punch though, I'll talk about it later)
    - Forretress (is a check, definitely not a counter but Jira is a spikes bait for it)
    - Gliscor (watchout Ice Punch though)
    - Mew (the Stallbreaker set)
    - Slowbro
    - Garchomp (watchout Ice Punch once more)
    - Jellicent
    - Landorus-T
    - Rotom-W
    - Skarmory
    - Tentacruel in rain (definitely not great counter in Sand + Jira runs Zen Headbutt in the current metagame)
    - Politoed
    - Scizor (Firepunch ...)

    Ok well, that does a lot of counters, I do agree but this is actually a bit "wrong" knowing Jirachi's ability to flinch like 10 times in a row. Don't forget that Jirachi has Trick and can completely ruin its checks/counters by giving its Choice Scarf + flinching.

    About CM Jirachi they're basically the same without a few ones (Tentacruel, Politoed, Skarmory, Ferrothorn, Mew, Jellicent, Slowbro, Rotom-W ...). SubMindJirachi is definitely the hardest Set to handle, especially when you don't know its full set (Water Pulse ? Psyshock ? Wish ? Subsitute ? etc ...)

    Jirachi rarely runs Fire Punch, especially in the current Metagame where Ice Punch is much more useful. People even run Zen Headbutt to hit Keldeo, so yeah Fire Punch is really rarely used on Jirachi. It has been used at the beginning of BW1 for Ferrothorn, Bulky SDef Scizor but now it's completely obsolete.
  17. flea

    flea

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2012
    Messages:
    43
    Grass Knot, although viable, is pretty dang rare (doesn't even crack 3% usage in OU to show up on the moveset statistics), and only really has use on the offensive CM set, which I think we all can agree is not exactly the best Jirachi set (or, say, a top-3 Jirachi set). Gastrodon is my favorite counter personally, because of its ability both to burn with scald or Earthquake away any sub+CM shenanigans (although I doubt subCM would stay in on you anyway as you're immune to both its attacks). Add in reliable recovery and it should be a stop to 97+% of Jirachis, not too bad.

    Still, though, that Paraflinching set is monstrous. Very risky for offensive pokes to switch in because of Body Slam, and even pokes that take on Body Slam/Iron Head well have a solid chance of being haxed to death/getting SR set up on them. But as soon as you figure out the set Rachi's running, it will have its counters. Gastrodon's my favorite because it counters both sets with its natural bulk, typing, ability, low speed and access to Earthquake.
  18. Flygoner818

    Flygoner818

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2008
    Messages:
    75
    Most underrated Jirachi counter (and decently anti-meta in general):

    [​IMG]
    Lanturn @ Leftovers
    Trait: Volt Absorb
    EVs: 52 HP / 252 Def / 204 SDef
    Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
    - Heal Bell
    - Thunder Wave
    - Scald / Surf
    - Thunderbolt / Volt Switch

    Lanturn is a great switch-in to specially-defensive versions, since it takes little to nothing from and Iron Head and can restore Paralysis with Heal Bell, while simultaneously dishing it out with Thunder Wave. Alternatively, you could just spread a burn with Scald or do damage with Surf. What makes Lanturn such a good Jirachi counter, however, is it's typing and ability, Volt Absorb. Calm Mind versions with Thunder/Thunderbolt and Water Pulse/Flash Cannon will struggle to do meaningful damage with their attacks, even boosted:

    -4SpAtk +1 Jirachi (Neutral) Water Pulse in Rain vs 52HP/200SpDef Leftovers Volt Absorb Lanturn (+SpDef): 10% - 12% (44 - 52 HP). Guaranteed 10HKO.
    -4SpAtk +1 Jirachi (Neutral) Flash Cannon vs 52HP/200SpDef Leftovers Volt Absorb Lanturn (+SpDef): 7% - 8% (29 - 34 HP). Guaranteed 14HKO.
    -4SpAtk +1 Jirachi (Neutral) Psyshock vs 52HP/252Def Leftovers Volt Absorb Lanturn (Neutral): 35% - 41% (142 - 168 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO.

    Even Psyshock variants struggle, since even at +1, it's only a 3HKO, whereas Lanturn will always break the same Jirachi's sub under rain and can proceed to paralyze and cause major problems.

    Also just realized I did my calcs with 200 in SDef rather than 204, but you get the idea.
  19. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2009
    Messages:
    7,212
    It doesn't matter if Lanturn walls SubCM Jirachi, as Jirachi walls it back too and will eventually get past it due to no reliable healing (or Psyshock, aka the most common 4th move on the SubCM set). Here are some calcs:

    Scald in rain vs +1 SubCM Jirachi: 17.07 - 20.29%
    Surf in rain vs +1 SubCM Jirachi: 20.79 - 24.5%

    Which means that Lanturn will never break Jirachi's subs even in rain and will simply become setup fodder.
  20. Flygoner818

    Flygoner818

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2008
    Messages:
    75
    That may be true, but it's only one move on one set, which is pretty situational. For the vast majority of Jirachis out there, Lanturn is an almost full stop.

    inb4 something about how narrow-minded I am lol
  21. MapleDoom

    MapleDoom

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2012
    Messages:
    86
    I find Cofagrigus a pretty good counter to Jirachi, I mean... that defense...

    A few calcs...

    Show Hide
    252 Atk Jirachi Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 136+ Def Cofagrigus: 66-78 (20.62 - 24.37%) -- possible 6HKO

    +1 4 SpA Jirachi Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 120 SpD Cofagrigus: 111-132 (34.68 - 41.25%) -- 67.77% chance to 3HKO

    +1 252 SpA Jirachi Psychic vs. 252 HP / 120 SpD Cofagrigus: 157-186 (49.06 - 58.12%) -- 58.98% chance to 2HKO


    Calm Mind is pretty threatening to Cofag, though.
  22. Satisfaction

    Satisfaction

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2012
    Messages:
    198
    Cofagrigus is great against physical sets since it eliminates the serene grace on contact but can't beat the cm set, to its credit it can haze pain split and avoid body slam, but its not winning that fight. Great pivot though if predicting iron head
  23. Neliel

    Neliel Sacred Sword

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2012
    Messages:
    559
    All right, just a reminder that tomorrow is the last day to discuss jirachi so if you have something say, say it now.

    A pokemon i think can do a nice work against jirachi in general is chandelure, especially this set.

    Chandelure (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Flash Fire
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
    - Substitute
    - Flamethrower
    - Pain Split
    - Shadow Ball

    It can come in on any special defensive jirachi, its immune to body slam and it laugh at iron head, its faster than any defensive version so you can setup a setup easily since iron head wont break the sub. Scarf variants or expert belt variants fails to do anything signicant to it, calm mind can be a little harder to handle due to thunder, which can paralize you, or the fact that under rain flametrhower is weaker, even tho jirachi can do still a lot of damage even under rain. Fire blast can be used but i dont know if the added power is worth it, since you can miss and you have more chance to be ppstalled.
  24. The Unlucky one

    The Unlucky one

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2012
    Messages:
    1,003
    Jirachi is a pretty hard pokemon to counter all of its sets. As said above, your most surefire counter to Jirachi is Heatran. However, special variants of Jirachi must face this beast.

    [​IMG]
    Meloetta @ Leftovers
    Trait: Serene Grace
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SDef
    Calm Nature
    - Psyshock
    - Perish Song
    - Thunder Wave
    - Focus Blast

    Meloetta's massive special bulk allows it to bypass Jirachi and simply force it out with Perish Song. It also is a handy check to gengar, alakzam, rotom-w, variants of thundurus-t proving it is only a Jirachi Check.

    +6 4 SpA Jirachi Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Meloetta: 210-247 (51.98 - 61.13%) -- 94.92% chance to 2HKO
    +6 4 SpA Jirachi Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Meloetta: 213-251 (52.72 - 62.12%) -- 99.61% chance to 2HKO


    Yeah, that's at +6
  25. Neliel

    Neliel Sacred Sword

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2012
    Messages:
    559
    Ok, now we can discuss breloom for week 2!

    [​IMG]
    Breloom
    60 Hp / 130 Atk / 80 Def / 60 Satk / 60 Spd / 70 Spe
    Abilities: Effect spore, Poison heal, Technichan

    Breloom is one of those pokemon that even with bad stats overall, always shined since the beginning of Bw. Its poison heal's sets were already good, with sub focus punch being of the most threatening and annoying. Its immunity to status and Spore were one of the main reason of its success; like it wasnt enough breloom could also use Stun spore and leech seed to annoy the opponent even more. Then, bulk up breloom became one of the most common set, being able to sweep teams sometimes. Then, with bw2, breloom got one of the best ability it could ever get, technichan. This allow breloom to effectively use its priority mach punch and the boosted bullet seed to sweep teams with sword dance.
    Not everything is good about it by the way; its defensive stats makes it very fragile, since any supereffective move will almost kill it, its stab are not even the best, grass+fighting its walled by a lot of things, even though spore compensate its lack of coverage.
    So, what do you guys use to stop breloom?​

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)