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Victim of the Week: Week 6, Volcarona

Discussion in 'BW OU' started by Neliel, Jan 27, 2013.

  1. youngjake93

    youngjake93

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    You could press the bulk up button again if they're so smart to bring in a sleeping lando-t for the free defense boost at a minimum...
  2. Neliel

    Neliel Sacred Sword

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    Now starts week 4, with starmie!

    [​IMG]
    Starmie
    60 Hp / 75 Atk / 85 Def / 100 Satk / 85 Spd / 115 Spe
    Abilities: Natural cure, Analitic​

    Starmie is one of the few pokemon that was Ou in every generation since Rby; the reason of his success are not difficult to understand though. One of its strong point is its stellar speed, that lets it outspeed a large part of the metagame, often being outspeeded only by scarfed pokemon. Its special atk, while not excellent, its more than enough to open holes in the enemies teams, also thanks to its coverage that makes it very hard to counter. Hydro pump, Thunderbolt, Ice beam is an almost unresisted coverage, and for the few things that are supposed to check it starmie has some trick to beat them. It has to be noticed that in this generation starmie can be even more threatening than in the past, since almost nothing likes to take specs hydro pump under rain. Trick and psyshock deserves a mention, since they can be very usefull to get past some of his counters.
    Starmie is also known for his great rapid spin support, being one of the best spinners at the moment. Its typing its not stellar for a defensive pokemon, being very susceptile to the omnipresent Tyranitar, but its not that bad. Thats it, lets discuss of do you check starmie!
  3. ganj4lF

    ganj4lF Nobody is safe from the power of science!
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    SpD Jellicent is your best bet if you really want to prevent Starmie from spinning. Starmie needs to meet all of these conditions to be able to 2HKO Jellicent on the switch: 1. having a LO and max SpA, 2. having Thunder in its moveset, and 3, connect with it twice. This almost never happens, since Starmie often carries a Leftovers, or something else, to avoid wearing itself down via Life Orb, and Rain teams either don't bother too much with spinning or use Tentacruel to do so (thus the presence of Thunder in its moveset is kinda rare, in my experience).
  4. BlackLight

    BlackLight

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    Neliel, you changed your name! Now I can pronounce it! XD
    Anyhow, Starmie hates Ferrothorn with a passion. Ferrothorn can OHKO Starmie with Power Whip, lay down entry hazards, and hurts Starmie each time it tries to spin. What's more, Starmie can't really hurt Ferrothorn outside of a neutral Ice Beam, which is gives Ferrothorn time to do whatever it likes. The only way Starmie can beat Ferrothorn one on one is a sun boosted, Life Orb, 252 Sp Attack Hidden Power Fire, which, as you can guess, is really gimmicky (I guess you could have Starmie be your Spinner on a sun team, but I'm not even sure if that's worth seriously considering).
    Beyond that, Starmie has okay bulk, and an okay attacking stat, so it isn't really difficult to take down unless you're weak to one of its attacks or its in the rain, as Hydro Pump really, really hurts. Therefore, taking it out of the rain is a very good way to take it on.
  5. Organization Member XIV

    Organization Member XIV

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    But I liked Neliel Tu Oderschvank :(. Either way, Starmie is hopelessly walled by Blissey and Chansey. They literally fear nothing, can T-Wave it back so the switch is forced faster-that or you nail something else on the switch with it; the same goes for Toxic-and just S-toss at that measly HP stat. Jolteon can also come in on a predicted Thunderbolt or Thunder and proceed to easily destroy Starmie with one of its own, the same goes for Thundurus-T. Latias is also a decent check, as it can tank Ice Beams defensive Spinning Starmie all day, Roost off the damage, and then proceed to CM up. All in all, Starmie isn't that great as it seems. While BoltBeam and STAB Hydro Pump is nice, too much just puts it in its place. Sorry Starmie, but you aren't as godly as you used to be.

    EDIT: Trinitirotoluene has the best signature ever.
  6. Neliel

    Neliel Sacred Sword

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    Yes, i changed because it was too long :0

    By the way, i think one of the best overall check for starmie is Special defensive rotom-w. Rotom-w can take almost any hits, even though specs hydro pump hurts, its not 2koed and it can volt switch on his face. Rotom-w is one of the few "offensive" pokemon that can do a nice job to check it, without relying on stallish things like Blissey or Gastrodon.
  7. Halcyon.

    Halcyon. Certified Lumberjack
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    Technically Lanturn is a full stop to offensive Starmie, being immune to Thunderbolt and resisting Ice Beam and Hydro Pump. Lanturn can't stop Starmie from spinning, but if that isn't important to you, then Starmie can't touch her and she can just Volt Switch on the switch.
  8. Trinitrotoluene

    Trinitrotoluene break the silence
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    I'm surprised ScarfTar hasn't been brought up yet. Thanks to Tyranitar's odd base speed of 61, it can just barely outpace max speed Starmie and force mindgames upon it. Pursuit 2HKOes frailer variants of Starmie, and it OHKOes if the Starmie switches out. The same happens to bulkier variants after one round of SR. Tyranitar can't exactly stop Starmie from spinning directly, but it can punish Starmie for doing so.
  9. Electrolyte

    Electrolyte Magic, madness, heaven, sin
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    Starmie is a top threat in today's metagame- and not just because it's one of the best spinners. It's very fast, and can hit decently hard because it has excellent coverage. However, there it has a couple of weaknesses that one could exploit when trying to defeat the sear star on steroids.

    One of Starmie's main problems is its just average Special Attack stat. 100 SpA is definitely not something to brag about, and while it is just passable Starmie will have a hard to muscling past opponents that can't be hit SE and who have decent special bulk. Unless it recieves a boost, it isn't going to be tearing holes of any sort. Another things Starmie suffers from is 4MSS. Rapid Spin is a must on most Starmie's as that should be one of the biggest if not THE biggest reason why you're using it in the first place. That leaves 3 slots for either attacks or recovery- which often isn't enough to cover the amount of threats Starmie needs to cover. Many bulky Starmies have Recover + STAB + Ice Beam / Thunderbolt / other STAB, and although this Starmie is harder to take down it is easier to counter and wall. Offensive Starmies usually skip the recovery and go straight for HPump and two of Tbolt / Ice Beam / Psyshock in the last two slot. Although this kind of Starmie hits harder and with better coverage, it gets worn down easily and can't take as many hits as bulky Starmie.

    Bulky Starmie has a number of checks and counters. Because it is relatively weak, pokemon with decent bulk and super effective coverage can usually handle Starmie. Scizor can defeat Scaldless Starmies, tanking two gits and then OHKO'ing with U-Turn. Jirachi can do the same, or it can whittle down Starmie's HP stat with Body Slam / Iron Head. Sub CM Jirachi can also set up on Starmie outside of Rain, and KO with Thunderbolt. SpDef Rotom-W is also a great answer to Starmie. It can Volt Switch the water type for a decent chunk of damage to allow a faster scarfer to come in clean for a revenge kill. SpDef TTar can switch in too, but it has to be careful for Scald burns; they hurt. CM Latias can set up easily on Ice Beam less Starmie's and even Starmies WITH Ice Beam provided Latias has a good amount of HP left. Ferrothorn can easily shrug off any attack Starmie has, and OHKO with power whip or set hazards to force Starmie to kill itself by iron barbs recoil after Rapid Spin. Celebi can also tank any hit and recover / giga drain Ice Beam damage. Starmies lacking Ice Beam can be walled by any Dragon / Grass type, and Starmies lacking Thunderbolt are walled by bulk water types. Just know the set first.

    Offensive Starmie shares a similar list of checks and counters, but due to the fact that it does commonly run both TBolt and Ice Beam, Dragon / Grass / Bulky water types can not be thrown freely in. However, offensive Starmie is easily revenge killed, and can also be worn down with hazards / LO recoil / status. Choice Scarf Thundurus-T is a great check as it can take Psyshocks and Thunder Bolts when SR is off the field and KO with Thunderbolt. Faster pokemon like Alakazam can come in on Psyshock or the weaker Tbolt / Ice Beam and proceed to OHKO with Shadow Ball. Jolteon can also do this, immune to Tbolt and having enough bulk to take a Psyshock / Ice Beam. Choice Scarf Latios can take anything except Ice Beam (which still doesn't OHKO) and KO with Draco Meteor. I'm pretty sure Choice Scarf Terrakion can OHKO with XScissor after one round of LO, I'll have to do a calc. Choice Scarf Hydreigon can take anything except Ice Beam and KO with Dark Pulse.
  10. Alexander.

    Alexander.

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    Rotom-W, Celebi, Ferrothorn, Special Defensive Jellicent, Gastrodon, Chansey and Blissey are all great counter for Starmie. Rotom-W can tank Starmie's hits and then use Volt Switch, Celebi only fears Ice Beam and can use its grass-types moves, Ferrothorn only fears a Hidden Power Fire under sun which is very uncommon nowadays and can do whatever it wants, Special Defensive Jellicent tanks Starmie's attacks very well and can 2HKO back any version of Starmie with Shadow Ball and Gastrodon, Chansey and Blissey don't fear any Starmie's move and can do whatever it wants like Ferrothorn. Another great counter for Starmie is Lanturn, it's an underrated pokemon but yeah it works very well as counter of Starmie since it resists to all Starmie's moves and can smash it with Thunderbolt or Volt Switch, just like Rotom-W does. If someone wants try Lanturn, here's the set:

    [​IMG]
    Lanturn (F) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Volt Absorb
    EVs: 252 Def / 52 SAtk / 204 SDef
    Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
    - Scald
    - Thunderbolt / Volt Switch
    - Ice Beam
    - Heal Bell / Thunder Wave
  11. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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    One of the best and most full-proof Starmie counters is SpD Kyurem-B. It's not even 2HKOed by Specs Psyshock after SR, and the only hope that Starmie has to get past it is with Specs Hydro Pump after SR. Of 'course getting burned by Scald sucks, so you may want to partner it with a cleric, and how funny, the best cleric in OU counters Starmie too :D
  12. Trinitrotoluene

    Trinitrotoluene break the silence
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    Wouldn't regular Kyurem work just as well, considering that it has Pressure to make up for a slight deficiency in Defense, or is that base 100 Defense important? Just curious.
  13. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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    Well normal Kyurem works fine too, but the thing is that Kyurem nevers takes a defensive role because it is outclassed by Kyu-B in that regard. The only good set that Kyurem has is the SubRoost with 56 HP EVs, which gets 2HKOed by LO Starmie in rain, with either Hydro Pump or Psyshock. It is however a good switch-in to defensive Starmie, or to offensive Starmie if SR is not up, and has the added benefit of easily stalling out Hydro Pump with Pressure.
  14. LilOuOn

    LilOuOn

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    [​IMG]
    Rotom-W @ Leftovers | Levitate
    Calm | 252 HP / 252 SDef / 4 Spe
    Hydro Pump | Volt Switch | Pain Split | Will-O-Wisp


    This buddy has such as an amazing defensive typing that allows him to take any of Starmie's hits. He has everything that is needed: supereffective electric STAB, great base special defense and a way to recover HP. Rotom-W resists Hydro Pump and Ice Beam and can take thunderbolt with little effort. The only way that Starmie has to get rid of Rotom is to pack Psyshock. Fortunately, Psyshock is always used as the secondary option and it's very rare.

    Talking about damage calculations, here are some:

    Starmie can't even OHKO Rotom with Specs Psyshock. Rotom can easily tank the hit and strike back with uninvested Volt Switch:

  15. ~GreenCore

    ~GreenCore Hardwire

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    Blissey/Chansey isn't a threat anymore since Starmie got Psyshock.

    252SpAtk Life Orb Analytic Starmie (Neutral) Psyshock vs 252HP/0Def Blissey (Neutral): 108% - 127% (774 - 912 HP). Guaranteed OHKO. Delete
    252SpAtk Life Orb Analytic Starmie (Neutral) Psyshock vs 252HP/252Def Leftovers Blissey (+Def): 46% - 55% (333 - 393 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO. 6% chance to 2HKO with Leftovers.
    252SpAtk Life Orb Analytic Starmie (Neutral) Psyshock vs 252HP/0Def Leftovers Chansey (Neutral): 133% - 157% (940 - 1108 HP). Guaranteed OHKO.
    252SpAtk Life Orb Analytic Starmie (Neutral) Psyshock vs 252HP/0Def Eviolite Chansey (Neutral): 89% - 105% (628 - 741 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. 32% chance to OHKO.
    252SpAtk Life Orb Analytic Starmie (Neutral) Psyshock vs 252HP/252Def Leftovers Chansey (+Def): 51% - 61% (364 - 430 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
    252SpAtk Life Orb Analytic Starmie (Neutral) Psyshock vs 252HP/0Def Leftovers Storm Drain Gastrodon (Neutral): 59% - 69% (253 - 297 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO

    LO starmie even 2KO to bulky Gastrodon, btw
  16. AccidentalGreed

    AccidentalGreed "Smogon friends" is an oxymoron.
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    It's not a counter if Starmie can easily outspeed and KO it with one of its most commonly used moves, not to mention its definitely not if it needs that MANY boosts to KO it.

    Anyhow, as far as offensive countermeasures are concerned, any Kyurem-B set is pretty much a damned good switch in to any Starmie save the rare LO Psyshock versions. Just use SpD to set up on it, or slap on an offensive item and pretty much go wild.
  17. ~GreenCore

    ~GreenCore Hardwire

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    Gyarados must be boosted just to outspead and probably 2KO to Starmie, however even a Bulky Starmie can easly outspeed and KO to gyarados, with moves as Thunder/Thunderbolt :l
    Code:
    252Atk +2 Gyarados (+Atk) Earthquake vs 0HP/0Def Leftovers Starmie (Neutral): 101% - 120% (266 - 314 HP). Guaranteed OHKO.	
    252Atk +1 Gyarados (+Atk) Earthquake vs 0HP/0Def Leftovers Starmie (Neutral): 76% - 90% (200 - 236 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
  18. Hiphopanonymous

    Hiphopanonymous

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    Starmie is definitely my favorite spinner, and it's honestly the only one I ever use. However it's flaws are seriously apparent. It's bulk, while decent, isn't up to par with the heavy hitters of the current metagame. Anything carrying SE moves usually 2KO it, and if Starmie's running Recover, it will be either KO'd before it can, or hand the opponent a free turn while Starmie tries to keep itself alive. Probably one of the biggest negative points, is what Electrolyte said about it having severe 4MSS. HP Fire works pretty well for Forry and Ferro, but the damage output under Rain is laughable, at best. Plus they both seem to be almost mandatory on rain teams, so it's usually a waste of a moveslot. Also, Starmie has an item version of 4MSS. It's respectable 100 Sp. Atk stat is pretty much begging for a LO boost, but then you rarely live long enough to spin, even if you pack Recover. Using Lefties means that you're not hitting most potential switch-ins for enough damage. Specs/Scarf can be used, although amazing prediction is needed, and you're still getting walled more often than not, in my experience. Countering Starmie isn't really difficult, seeing as most of the things that make it cry are usually found on ANY decently built team, and it also seems that our favorite starfish usually doesn't need much consideration when thinking of a poke to counter it, due to how many potential counters it has.

    Oh, and Electrolyte, I seriously wish I could like posts on here. =P
  19. butterfingers158

    butterfingers158

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    Less than 2% of Starmie in January ran Analytic

    Here's how Starmie fairs against the most common Blissey spread (252 HP/252 Def Bold)

    Detailed Result:
    252 SpAtk Life Orb Starmie Psyshock vs 252 HP/252 Def Blissey (+Def) : 36.13% - 42.44%
    Entry hazards damage: 89
    After entry hazards: 347 - 392 (48.6% - 54.9%)
    3 hits to KO (with Leftovers)

    Not breaking through Blissey anytime soon.
  20. Organization Member XIV

    Organization Member XIV

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    Plus, Starmie outspeeds those Pokemon, therefore that whole argument is invalid, unless you're running Lagging Tail. Analytic Starmie is bad, the whole logic behind this post is moot due to the fact that Analytic only activates if you move last, so yeah. Sorry if I sound like I'm being mean, but I'm just speaking the truth.

    EDIT: Just realized that greencore could be trolling. Im gonna go with that.
  21. Shurtugal

    Shurtugal The Enterpriser.

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    Tyranitar is easily a good check to Starmie.

    Tyranitar specially defensive set is amazing at tanking any of its attacks as well as simply spamming pursuit to trap and eliminate Starmie. It's banded set is also amazing since sand boosts its bulk anyway and Pursuit will be doing more damage. Essentially, one could also use SDef Celebi, which really just doesn't care about Ice Beam even if it carries a Life Orb. It can use Nasty Plot or simply Giga Drain to replenish its life as well as easily U-turning or spamming Reocver while Starmie can't do much back.

    I feel these are more common and essentially more effective answers than looking for these "100%" counters since they can't do much outside of counter Starmie. (@Pocket: I'm deleting the other post and I will refrain from posting via iPod).
  22. Seth Vilo

    Seth Vilo

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    Cause it's huge (open)
    [​IMG]

    Pleased to meet you Starmie......


    [​IMG]Kyurem-Black @ Leftovers
    Trait: Teravolt
    EVs: 56 HP / 32 Atk / 180 SAtk / 240 Spd
    Mild Nature
    - Substitute
    - Earth Power
    - Fusion Bolt
    - Ice Beam

    Outside of Scald burns, Kyurem can take everything Starmie throws at it with its bulk and resistances. It can either set up a Sub as Starmie runs, or murder it with Fusion Bolt:

    • 32 Atk Kyurem-B Fusion Bolt vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 268-316 (82.71 - 97.53%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    • 32 Atk Kyurem-B Fusion Bolt vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 268-316 (102.68 - 121.07%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    • 252 SpA Choice Specs Starmie Psyshock vs. 56 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-B: 163-193 (40.24 - 47.65%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

    Kyurem eats Starmie. And dreams.
  23. Shikyo

    Shikyo

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    I don't get most of these posts. Starmie without Rapid Spin isn't even that good of a pokemon, definitely not OU material. She's OU just because of her spin. That's why I don't get the point of "countering her" if you cannot block the spin or at least guarantee the kill.

    Enemy swaps in Starmie -> You swap in SDef Rotom-W as she spins -> opponent switches Starmie away. Here it doesn't even matter if Rotom-W is good against Starmie, she still got rid of the entry hazards.

    For getting the kill, best options are CB Scizor and CB Tyrannitar, though Scizor needs to be wary of Hydro Pumps especially in the rain. Pursuit 1shots her, though she's faster so she can put a decent dent on both, which can be quite detrimental to the Tyranitar in weather wars.

    Preventing the spin is tough because Starmie does well against the common spinblockers. I'd just stick to pursuits.


    Also, if you're expecting a Choice Band for some reason(Say the team has both a Tentacruel and a Starmie), Starmie might carry Trick and in that case Blissey and SDef Rotom-W for example would be extremely risky to use against her.
  24. DrunkDemon

    DrunkDemon

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    Analytic will actually still activate as long as the target is switching in, since a switch technically counts as a high priority move.
  25. doublenikesocks

    doublenikesocks

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    Let's face, Natural Cure is so much better on Starmie, so why are we even talking about Analytic? Being able to absorb status is godly in this meta.

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